10 replies to this topic

[caruga]

Some of my latest observations drawn from personal experimentation, and a thesis for loading phase. If this doesn't warrant its own thread feel free to merge it. I'm not an expert, and I can only guarrantee that everything I say here is applicable to me.

1. Piracetam needs fuel. I use the word 'fuel' loosely, based on my subjective experience of how it seems to create certain undesirable effects and then when I take another substance it eliminates those effects, suggesting that it deplored stores of that chemical. The form the fuel takes may vary from person to person due to undetermined factors, most likely genetics or what they're taking with it (I think whether you're a caffeine consumer could be a big influence, being a potent cholinergic even though seldom recognised as one). The most popular fuel is acetylcholine, but there may be other candidates. I wonder (as a total speculation) if even it can potentially, with prolonged immoderate doses, drain all neurotransmitters, and it's the fact that ACh has a much smaller gross amount present in the brain that causes it to be depleted first.

The usual symptom of (alleged) deplored ACh brought on by piracetam is brain fog. I live with brain fog myself 24/7 due to chronic fatigue, and the kind of brain fog piracetam generates is very different. Because of this I didn't even realise that it was brain fog, and referred to it in a totally different way, as a kind of weird sleepiness, difficulty to rise from bed, lack of motivation and an uncharacteristic indifference to my lack of motivation, and perceiving light to be darker than usual. But later, I realised we're probably talking about the same thing.

2. Piracetams main identified actions are increasing cell permeability, improving mitochondrial activity and cell metabolism.

3. Piracetam definitely seemed to require a load phase with me, even though I didn't deliberately go through a load phase! I simply experimented with conventional doses, but it turns out my final effective dosage is smaller by a factor of ten, yet, when I tried that small dose in the beginning it didn't do anything.

I started out dosing anywhere between 1000 mg and 9000 mg spread throughout the day. After about day 4 is when I first started to get the aforementioned brain fog. Taking cholinergics after this gave me such a dramatic boost, that I described it as "booting up". Felt like my brain wasn't switched on by contrast until I took them. However, if you continue taking piracetam at the same dose after this no amount of extra choline will compensate, the piracetam will flatten your brain like a truck over a hedgehog, you have to go easier on it. I usually feel the fog the day after taking piracetam on a day with no fog.

In adjustment to the fog chasing me with each dose, I gradually lowered the dose and seemed to require less and less to get the sweet spot, and if I returned to a higher dose the fog was more intense than the previous time at that dose. Eventually I stopped at about 200mg, where I continued to respond. 200mg without cholinergics for me will eventually induce subtle brain fog, but I can stave it off completely with cosupplementation. When people say choline is completely unnecessary I can only shake my head, given my above experience. I, for one, will add the disclaimer that I'm only speaking for myself, and that any of what I'm saying in this post only might be applicable to you, or might not be.

5. I believe that piracetam affects piracetam. It either accumulates in the body, or has a build-up effect in some indirect way, such as the cell permeability generated by initial dosing allowing further piracetam to affect the cells with less difficulty and less required concentration. More free piracetam gets in, less is eliminated.

This seems likely since I've observed that certain substances start working that didn't previously, when I'm taking piracetam. For me it is theanine and rhodiola. And... piracetam.

In short, you first adjust to piracetam and then you adjust piracetam to you, back and forth.

6. Alcohol and piracetam. I initially had a bad alcohol experience with piracetam, but that was on day 1 of my first batch after taking 5000mg. Just today I had 200mg and then had a glass of cider. I became super soothed and happy. It was the best alcohol experience ever--it gave me the lack of social inhibition of drink number 6 but my coordination was steady and I could think perfectly, and was generally just charming and knew it. Normally I have to get to the point where alcohol makes me quite dumber before I reach that point, and then I don't feel as confident just because I'm not thinking very well and don't really come out with anything good unless I strain myself. I've never found any perfect balance with alcohol before, but this did it for me. With piracetam, alcohol has the potential to be a far better gabaergic than phenibut.

The only downer is it wears off as quickly as ever and you want to reach for the next drink. Maybe if you just sipped on one drink it would work really well. Another thing I noticed: you know how you feel on your feet after you get up after a few drinks? I got that, but without the feeling that I was uncoordinated. I just felt really excellent.

7. It's worth noting (for me) that high doses of choline (not ACh, which causes headaches, but just very recently dosed choline) can cause a different sort of brain fog. For me, this choline brain fog feels like mental long-sightedness, you can see thoughts in the distance but it's hard to focus on what's mentally in front of you and your head feels literally like it's straining when it tries to focus.

8. I hypothesise a guideline for 'loading' piracetam: take it well and often, until the onset of brain fog. Restore your brain with cholinergics, take more at a lower dose with choline cosupplemented, until brain fog, restore, keep doing it until you can take it three times spaced throughout the day at a fixed dose and either not get brain fog or have it easily supported with a dose of choline in a size that doesn't itself incur detrimental effects when taken at once (for me, >1000mg choline bitartrate, ~400mg raw choline, has bad cognitive effects, the fog described above--I generally take 500-800mg as a supporting dose, along with an equal dose of DMAE bitartrate, and occasionally ALCAR).

Edited by caruga, 03 April 2011 - 10:24 PM.

[Ichoose2live]

I think it's time to experiment.
The effects of Piracetam also seems to be dependent on the adrenal glands and many hormones rather than genetics. When I take two grams or more of a single dose, I get tired in less than two hours.
Piracetam must be supplemented with choline in the long-term, given that Piracetam depletes the level of acetylcholine.

I would not be surprised that the brain fog that you have is actually the fact that Piracetam has exhausted your adrenal glands. That may be why when people use caffeine or other stimulants with Piracetam they are feeling the effects. Try 2-5 grams of vitamin C per day with Piracetam. It seems to have worked for me. If you live with stress often, then you would need an adaptogen.

The symptoms of adrenal insufficiency usually begin gradually. The most common symptoms are

• chronic, worsening fatigue
• muscle weakness
• loss of appetite
• weight loss

Other symptoms can include

• nausea
• vomiting
• diarrhea
• low blood pressure that falls further when standing, causing dizziness or fainting
• irritability and depression
• a craving for salty foods due to salt loss
• hypoglycemia, or low blood glucose
• headache
• sweating
• in women, irregular or absent menstrual periods

Symptoms of an Addisonian or "adrenal" crisis include

• sudden, penetrating pain in the lower back, abdomen, or legs
• severe vomiting and diarrhea
• dehydration
• low blood pressure
  
• loss of consciousness

If you take three grams per day of Piracetam and after a week you take five grams at once, I guarantee that you'll be tired (depletion of adrenal glands).
It would not be surprising to learn that Piracetam depletes other things as well.

SOURCES :
Piracetam requires the activation of the two types of intracellular corticosteroid receptors.
Adrenalectomy blocks the memory-improving effect of piracetam-like compounds in mice.
Elevated corticosteroid levels block the memory-improving effects of nootropics and cholinomimetics.
Hippocampal acetylcholine levels were significantly depressed 30 min after rats received Piracetam (30–300 mg/kg, intraperitoneally).
Piracetam tended to decrease acetylcholine levels (19%).
Adrenal Insufficiency and Addison's Disease

This is an important discovery. We should all take a test to find out our levels of hormones. We should also take supplements that help the adrenal glands. See this site: http://www.drrind.co...mendation-sheet

Edited by Ichoose2live, 04 April 2011 - 12:53 AM.

[zorba990]

When I was experiencing adrenal fatigue, many years ago, I had great success in restoring proper
function by using Calcium Pantothenate - hard tablets. 250mg under the tongue once or twice a day
worked much better than anything else I tried. Only side effect was muscle tightness/spasms if I
took too much.

[Ichoose2live]

Well it's like I'm talking about something already said. --->> http://www.longecity...post__p__361397

Btw, I have reduced my dosage of Piracetam to 800mg 3 times per day and it does wonder! Colour saturation is pretty good. No weird kind of tension headache. No fatigue and definitely more energy.--->> http://www.longecity...am-micro-doses/

Try smaller dose I'm sure you will find more benefits!

Edited by Ichoose2live, 06 April 2011 - 02:34 AM.

[Heisenberg]

Interesting thesis. I did perceive the brain fog issue, but found I deal really badly with supplemented choline (alpha-GPC), so I reduced the piracetam dose drastically to about 100 mg per day. This is suboptimal, but still yields a quite noticable benefit. Have any of you experimented with Huperzine A instead of choline supplementation?

[Surive123]

Anyone have more input on this?

This is literally exactly how I feel on Pira and I've been looking for others and possible ways to remedy this. Most tout Pira as being the best nootropic that generally you feel either positives from or nothing from. I've noticed I get a zoned out feeling like the OP describes. It literally decreases my performance in multiple facets of my life. There are a few times though where it is great and I can totally relate to the benefits, but frankly, this guessing and checking, and hoping to see consistent results is just too exhausting.

Love to hear more input.

[manic_racetam]

I started my first Racetam dosing the beginning of this year. I started with aniracetam and noticed what I thought was a "brain fog". I journaled through the entire experience and ended up ordering more before I ran out and adding oxiracetam as well. Once the brain fog had lifted and after I'd been journaling for about two months straight I decided to go back and read the entries I had done while experiencing the brain fog.

I went back to the beginning of the year before I had gotten the racetams and decided to read a few of those entries as a control. I was surprised at the lack of depth and erratic switching of subjects. I moved on in the journal to the first few days of dosing on the aniracetam and realized they were a bit more fluid than the control entries. They had similar erratic subject changes but they were more fluid and I remember being conscious at the time of writing it, that I was switching subjects in a strange manner.

What I came to realize though is that the "brain fog" I was experiencing was actually a bit of a more objective view of my normal thought process. I had become conscious of the breaks in thought patterns and was noticing them through what seemed like a fog but was actually a new perception of my own brain patterns. It was as if I was being given an outside view of my normal thought processes, which turned out to be a bit foggy and jumbled up.

I realize this is all subjective and since it all took place in my head it's likely just me over thinking things.... but it was pretty cool anyway. And also looking back on it, the writing quality produced through the fog was better than that of my normal mind.

Then I got oxiracetam which added a whole new aspect to the experience. I started going a bit crazy though and figured I was over-doing it so I backed off a bit and ran out slowly.

Since stopping them though I missed quite a few things that they enhanced or allowed me to learn. For example when taking oxi music sounded so crisp and beautiful. I'd never been a fan of music but started listening to it all the time. The emotion that music invokes was very new to me indeed and I started enjoying driving around listening to some mixed CD's a friend had sent me. This could all be coincidence but I figured it was due to increased communication between the brain hemispheres.

It made me much more introverted though. I found myself isolating and journaling a lot more than usual. Finding myself lacking the motivation to call friends and family who I would normally stay in contact with. And this is the side that brought about a bit of crazy behavior... but I won't get into that.

I decided to get piracetam this time and thanks for the thread. I was drawn to it mostly because of the cheaper price and one study I read that said the effects of oxiracetam are nearly pharmacologically identical to piracetam. I was hoping that was true but haven't found it to be so far. I've been taking it about a week and can't seem to find the appropriate dose and it seems to be having no effect at all. The second day I noticed some patterning in the trees that looked very familiar but after the second day those effects disappeared. I supplement with 1.5g choline bitartrate split into three daily doses as well. I've been taking 6-10g piracetam which makes me worry about my kidneys since I also do protein shakes and creatine so I'm gonna start with the suggestion of 800mg 3x/day like the OP suggested.

Any other suggested dosing for piracetam would be helpful as well, or maybe some others' experiences with how long the loading phase took for them. Thanks

[zarakion]

The final piece for me that got rid of brainfog for me is coconut oil. I saw this clip on youtube that convinced me to try it with Piracetam:



I do about 3 or 4 tablespoons per day of coconut oil a day in combination with choline bitatrate and fishoil. Completely eliminated the brainfog from Piracetam.

[Ichoose2live]

I highly suspect the glutamate receptors being the cause of brain fog. The brain fog comes when one ingest a too high amount of Racetam. The tolerable upper limit is different from person-to-person.

The brain fog cannot come from a depletion of ACh because I find it irrational to think that Piracetam deplete ACh just after one single administration. Piracetam would be called a Muscarnic ACh antagonist, if it were the case. Piracetam and others Racetams PREVENT the depletion of ACh. [1], [2], [3] So it is rational to conclude that the brain fog come from glutamatergic stimulation. The Racetams have higher affinity on the glutamate receptors than the ACh. However, many people that get a brain fog with Piracetam use Salts form of Choline to collapse the brain fog. I think a misunderstood is taking place there since people wrap up saying ''I used choline, now I no longer have a brain fog. That mean the Racetams deplete the levels ACh''. Totally wrong, out of logic.

It tends to speculate that Choline and CDP-Choline, one of their main effect is to reduce a brain fog whatsoever. As you can see in other forums --> http://benzowithdraw...p?topic=11768.0 - http://healthyliving...-the-brain-fog/

The main mechanism of action of Piracetam is in the Mitochondrial. As you can read in this important paper : http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2944646/

" Findings that piracetam's efficacy is usually associated with conditions of disturbed brain function like aging (young healthy animals usually benefit little or nothing from piracetam treatment) (Valzelli et al., <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm..../6165698">1980; Muller et al., 1997), has led to the speculation that piracetam's mechanism of action is associated with biochemical deficits of the aged brain (Müller et al., 1994, 1999; Scheuer et al., 1999). This assumption was later supported by observations that piracetam specifically enhances membrane fluidity in aged brain material, showing no effect at all in membranes from young brains (Muller et al., 1997). This unique mechanism of action could be explained by the specific binding to the polar head-structures of membrane phospholipids leading to a more flexible arrangement of the fatty acid side chain structure, which got more rigid due to lipid peroxidation in aging or other situations associated with enhanced oxidative stress " Possibly protective against the oxidation of Fish oil.

" Piracetam's improving effects on the fluidity of aged synaptosomal membranes could explain the beneficial effects of piracetam on age-related deficits on several mechanisms of signal transduction such as receptor density and function, and transmitter release, since these mechanisms are disturbed in the aging brain probably due to a decrease of membrane fluidity " This explain why Piracetam increases NMDA and ACh receptors density in aged brain ONLY.

I find Piracetam's cognitive enhancing effects to be similar to a stimulant. It loses its effects and seems to stimulates you, after a brake of two days.

EDIT: Many drugs that act on the Glutamate receptors give brain fog.

Edited by Ichoose2live, 21 April 2011 - 06:02 PM.

[Koopa]

How long have you been on the racetams, caruga.

[Jrw2k]

The final piece for me that got rid of brainfog for me is coconut oil. I saw this clip on youtube that convinced me to try it with Piracetam:



I do about 3 or 4 tablespoons per day of coconut oil a day in combination with choline bitatrate and fishoil. Completely eliminated the brainfog from Piracetam.

So far so good.