34 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

I have ADHD. I've been on a number of things, but the side effects were... scary. I've tried a lot of supplements, some good some not so good. Recently, I've been making some headway that I thought I'd share concerning an alternative treatment. Hordenine is an alternative to other herbal MAO inhibitors. Hordenine I believe was first discovered from a cactus plant and also has antibiotic properties.

I've heard Hordenine and Phenylethylamine (PEA) combo thrown around a lot on body building forums and drug forums. Some people swear by it, and others toss it under the rug. PEA gives a "in love" euphoria - the kind of jittery goodness that makes you do dumb crazy stuff in front of hot chicks. Now PEA, the love chemical, is broken down by MAO enzymes and hordenine being an MAO subtrate, temporarily occupies the enzymes, allowing PEA to slip through. That's the theory. I haven't heard anyone ODing on this combo... but it sounds a little dangerous to me.

I don't see a point to PEA for ADHD. Sure PEA raises dopamine, but WHERE does it raise it if it causes acceleration of irrational thinking? The other thing is that a typical dose of PEA is anywhere between 50mg to 2g depending on the purpose. That's a broad range of effectiveness that I haven't been able to wrap my head around. Note that PEA is also a subtrate of MAO, which would explain why its natural release raises dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin levels.

For MAO substrates, there is a window of opportunity in which you can release your favorite neurotransmitter while your MAO enzymes are distracted. If you're ADHD, this is norepinephrine - the mental energy and concentration transmitter. How do you get that? Why a psychostimulant of course, but it doesn't have to be a huge one.

Hordenine's effective dose is 25mg to activate the effects. If you take a cup of coffee (nodoz, yeba mate, chocamine, etc.) 30min after taking hordenine, you'll notice your coffee feels a little bit stronger than usual. The other thing you'll notice is that the stimulating effects of the coffee last twice as long. You just saved yourself a dollar on another coffee with lunch break. Hordenine HCl is cheap... like $6/gram on a "popular auction site" and cheaper in bulk.

With the only side effect being a light head, I recommend this supplement as a nootropic. Hope I'm not too out of line here in saying that, especially since more dangerous or noneffective drugs and extracts are sold as nootropics. My only problem with hordenine is it's limited effectiveness window, so a time release system is still a dream of mine.

[Nooby]

Mother nature seems to have many MAOIs, where does this one stack against cappi, curcumin,syrian rue,etc?

What effects are you getting from this directly? When I took depenyl it initially gave me a crazy sex boost and mood enhancement but this soon subsided into lethargy. So when I started raising the dose I sort of realised that perhaps this was a bad thing and I should maybe give it up instead.
With something like cucrumin this doesn't seem to be an issue (this one effects MAO-A but with negligible effects on B) but with anything that effects dopamine more directly such as the MAO-BIs there does seem to be serious tolerance that results from over/chronic consumption in my case anyhow.

Edited by Nooby, 18 June 2011 - 09:28 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Mother nature seems to have many MAOIs, where does this one stack against cappi, curcumin,syrian rue,etc?

What effects are you getting from this directly? When I took depenyl it initially gave me a crazy sex boost and mood enhancement but this soon subsided into lethargy. So when I started raising the dose I sort of realised that perhaps this was a bad thing and I should maybe give it up instead.
With something like cucrumin this doesn't seem to be an issue (this one effects MAO-A but with negligible effects on B) but with anything that effects dopamine more directly such as the MAO-BIs there does seem to be serious tolerance that results from over/chronic consumption in my case anyhow.

I have never tried those mood herbs. The only ones I've tried would be cocoa, kanna, coffee, yerba mate, tea, pepper, siberian ginseng, and goldenseal. Hordenine outdoes all but a strong cup of coffee or yerba mate. Also hordenine is supposedly better at increasing norepinephrine than other MAO substrates/inhibitors.

I got a DIRECT mood lift as well as enhancing effects of stimulants including increased concentration. I almost always take it with DMAA, but I find best results with caffeine (taken within 30min). I think it's best to wait 15-30min before taking a stimulant to make sure hordenine is in your bloodstream. I only experience lethargy if I try to sip on hordenine HCl and water all day. I get about a ten minute mood lift and I need another sip. If I megadose caffeine with it, the effects will last 6 hours.

Another side effect I will mention is an increase in shakiness from the caffeine buzz. This goes away in like an hour or less and resumes to a lifted mood and focus for 5 hours.

[thedevinroy]

I've been experimenting with different doses of the freebase (not HCl salt). It seems to give around the same effects as the HCl salt, but with less immediate feelings. For instance, if I'd mix the HCl version in with some water and swish it around my mouth, I'd get an immediate mood lift. Whereas the freebase extract (from Barley seed, most likely) has a prolonged release because it breaks apart in the stomach. Therefore, I add a little lemon juice to the hordenine to help it dissolve better for absorption.

I like spiking my coffee with it for an added kick. If you put too much, you'll get really light headed and get the smiles. 50mg in a 10oz mug of light coffee shouldn't produce that effect.

This makes cutting back on caffeine a lot easier.

[canz]

Interesting. I've been on a search for a mood lifting stimulant that didn't give me the jitters or anxiety, and didn't make me crash when the effects wore off. I'm going to try DMAA, but hordenine sounds promising as well.

[unregistered_user]

Never heard of it. Might give it a try. Bad idea to take with deprenyl? I don't want too much MAOI going on

[sam7777]

I would recommend something like a blood alkalizer, with all that caffeine you run the risk of an acidic vasoconstrive state. You want to have your lungs very full and easily breathing. The idea is to keep the capillary and lymphic circulatory routes headed to the brain full wide and open for the optimum ATP/Glucose/Oxygen combo. I like raw cucumbers. Some people do barley grass, but it bothers my guts. Lemons are alkalizing. Lots of lemons. Lemon essential oil is mood stimulating.

What about bacopa?

And even more interesting in regard to this topic, what about Yohimbe?

[thedevinroy]

Interesting, I take vinegar and sometimes lemon juice to alkalize my blood. Stimulating the citric acid cycle is key to longevity.

Bacopa is nice at night, but only in moderate amounts. It increases the production and uptake of serotonin, which puts a ton of serotonin in your blood stream, causing a slight MAOI-A effect and also a sedative effect.

Yohimbine is the active compound in Yohimbe. It is a pre-synaptic blocker of many different neurotransmitters... which is a little like NZT in Limitless. I never touched the stuff, but I'd always been curious about it. It also inhibits MAO's in some affinity, but not sure what those may be. I'm also not sure about the transporters it may inhibit. I imagine that it must have some moderate affinity for at least one monamine transporter.

[sam7777]

I have yohimbe. Tried enough whole powder to equate to maybe 4 mg of yohimbine ( I hope that number is right, this stuff will kill you afterall) I honestly could not tell I had took it. I take so much crap though. I am afraid to take a genuine effective large dose like 25 mg of yohimbine. Unless this stuff makes me like rewrite relativity by Einstein.

Just WHAT is the safety profile on hordenine? Anyone?

[thedevinroy]

I have yohimbe. Tried enough whole powder to equate to maybe 4 mg of yohimbine ( I hope that number is right, this stuff will kill you afterall) I honestly could not tell I had took it. I take so much crap though. I am afraid to take a genuine effective large dose like 25 mg of yohimbine. Unless this stuff makes me like rewrite relativity by Einstein.

Just WHAT is the safety profile on hordenine? Anyone?

Up to 100mg is safe. It will make you high at that dose. I suggest taking it with food and only 50mg at a time.

[mattblack UK]

Sounds interesting... looked it up and cannot seem to find anywhere in the UK that would supply it, not without buying an expensive sport supplement that contains it.

Yohimbe on the other hand... Swanson appear to do a tub of 120 yohimbe bark extract pills at £10. 750mg each and containing 2% yohimbine. I make that 15mg yohimbine per capsule?

Maybe I'll try it one day... not top of my list at the moment though...

[thedevinroy]

http://www.blissfuls...nine/4554778333

[X_Danny_X]

eek! i took two 50mg of Hordenine and 20mg of Ritalin just now. i wonder what is going to happen to me? surely i should get a libido charge, this is going to hurt me since i am trying not too have sex or masturbate for 1 month.

this is going to suck!!

[mattblack UK]

http://www.blissfuls...nine/4554778333

OK this sounds cheap! But... if 25mg is an effective dose... those capsules of 370mg sound pretty high to me. Is this going to mean messing about splitting capsules open?

[nupi]

Irrational "in love" thoughts you say... Does that mean it makes you irrationally optimistic/feeling good? If so, I (as a notorious pessimist) might just try...

[mattblack UK]

From experience... being irrationally in love with somebody destroys the brain.

[thedevinroy]

eek! i took two 50mg of Hordenine and 20mg of Ritalin just now. i wonder what is going to happen to me? surely i should get a libido charge, this is going to hurt me since i am trying not too have sex or masturbate for 1 month.

this is going to suck!!

Haha it should be okay. You probably will get a little high... light headed and fast.

[thedevinroy]

Irrational "in love" thoughts you say... Does that mean it makes you irrationally optimistic/feeling good? If so, I (as a notorious pessimist) might just try...

Yes, it prevents PEA break down and is a release agent like PEA (your body's natural speed) itself. PEA is the chemical that is released when you make eye contact with an attractive person... it makes ya get butterflies in the stomach... it makes you hyper and almost nervous... heart pumping, fast thoughts.

[thedevinroy]

From experience... being irrationally in love with somebody destroys the brain.

All depends on your frame (perspective on reality) and your circumstances.

[mattblack UK]

lol yeah I guess so... I wasn't being entirely serious
But about the 370mg capsules.... Too high an amount?

[thedevinroy]

http://www.blissfuls...nine/4554778333

OK this sounds cheap! But... if 25mg is an effective dose... those capsules of 370mg sound pretty high to me. Is this going to mean messing about splitting capsules open?

I would definitely split it up to begin with. Release agents will build tolerance fairly quickly, so if it is natural hordenine (which it is), then 370mg won't do much after a while. Hordenine HCl is more potent (which 370mg will dump into your blood stream and cause problems). I've actually taken 500mg of natural Hordenine, and it wasn't all that effective. 25mg of Hordenine HCl did about the same. Absorption is key.

Hordenine potentiates DMAA which is also available on that site (as Geranamine).

[nupi]

I agree that it destroys your brain to some degree (and potentially your life but lets not go there) - still if you could get the feeling without all the trouble it usually causes because it is not attached to anyone, that would be one hell of a deal.

Edited by nupi, 11 November 2011 - 03:41 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

eek! i took two 50mg of Hordenine and 20mg of Ritalin just now. i wonder what is going to happen to me? surely i should get a libido charge, this is going to hurt me since i am trying not too have sex or masturbate for 1 month.

this is going to suck!!

Haha it should be okay. You probably will get a little high... light headed and fast.

you mean i am going to go to sleep or get drowsy? cannot afford that at this time.

Hordenine is a MAOI B inhibitor, is Ritalin a MAOI A inhibitor? i keep forgetting

Hordeine increases DMAA? you mean DMAE???

Edited by X_Danny_X, 12 November 2011 - 02:35 AM.

[thedevinroy]

eek! i took two 50mg of Hordenine and 20mg of Ritalin just now. i wonder what is going to happen to me? surely i should get a libido charge, this is going to hurt me since i am trying not too have sex or masturbate for 1 month.

this is going to suck!!

Haha it should be okay. You probably will get a little high... light headed and fast.

you mean i am going to go to sleep or get drowsy? cannot afford that at this time.

Hordenine is a MAOI B inhibitor, is Ritalin a MAOI A inhibitor? i keep forgetting

Hordeine increases DMAA? you mean DMAE???

Where did you get the sleep and drowsy from? I never said anything like that. Not at all. Not high like weed... I meant high like too much caffeine - light-headed and fast-paced.

Ritalin has very low, if any, affinity for either MAO enzymes. Meaning, no, Ritalin is not an MAO inhibitor. Hordenine is an MAO-B inhibitor.

Hordenine potentiates DMAA. What that means is that it increases the effects of DMAA (not DMAE). DMAA is DiMethylAmylAmine. DMAA is an NRI and Hordenine, in addition to being an MAO-B substrate (a temporary inhibitor), is also a release agent. Hordenine releases norepinephrine, and DMAA keeps it from going outside the synapse. Then, if it does make it outside the synapse, MAO-B is pre-occupied with Hordenine. Thus, Hordenine triples the effect of DMAA, in my opinion.

Edited by devinthayer, 13 November 2011 - 03:53 AM.

[zodiac]

In consideration of Hordenine vs. Selegiline (Deprenyl) for MAO-B inhibition to go with PEA... back in the day, I recall preferring the short time-frame of Hordenine being quite ideal -- long enough for the PEA to be enhanced in duration, but short enough to avoid building up excessive DA amounts in the long run (since DA is a major substrate of MAO-B enzyme, and PEA/etc. are releasers of DA), which kind of circumvented some of the downregulation issues that seemed to happen with Selegiline. It's been a while, so I don't recall the intricacies so much anymore, but yeh.

Edited by zodiac, 13 November 2011 - 08:23 PM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Planning on trying this with potentially DMAA for focus. Just without the PEA. PEA is so counterproductive, don't get it. Think nexzon made the point clear with PEA.

[niner]

Just WHAT is the safety profile on hordenine? Anyone?

Well, there's this. Kidney lesions are something not to love. To be fair, those represent higher dose toxicities. At .15% of diet, that would translate to 400-500mg in a human, very roughly. A tenth of that probably wouldn't kill you, but if you were taking a lot of this stuff, the occasional urinalysis wouldn't be a bad idea.

[deeptrance]

Just WHAT is the safety profile on hordenine? Anyone?

Up to 100mg is safe. It will make you high at that dose. I suggest taking it with food and only 50mg at a time.

Heh... I frequently take about 200mg hordenine with 500-1000mg PEA, and 25-50mg DMAA. Not to mention a LOT of catechins from acacia catechu, kola nut, green tea extract and uncaria tomentosa (the South American variety of Cat's Claw.)

The only negative effect I've had from any of this is that it sometimes doesn't do anything. But other times it gives me a wave of euphoric energy. For those who aren't interested in the drug-like effects I enjoy, my combination would be pointless. I'm not aware of any benefit of taking hordenine above what is recommended by vendors, i.e. about 25-50mg with a meal.

Given my tolerance for stimulants, hordenine alone doesn't make me high even at 200mg. I have to combine it with PEA and DMAA.

Regarding short term safety of hordenine at doses up to around 400mg, its MAO-b inhibition is extremely short-lived so it is not especially dangerous in that regard. I was not aware of potential long-term harm to kidneys but this should come as no surprise for most of the non-food substances we put in our bloodstream. Vitamins can cause kidney damage too, but probably not to the same degree as many herbs and supplements.

[panhedonic]

I don't think this was answered: Do you guys think it's safe to take hordenine with selegiline? I take 4mg/day, sublingual.

[unregistered_user]

Yep that was my question that got breezed over