422 replies to this topic

[ATA]

interesiting idea but have many flaws
- you still need constant curret source circut to get constatnt current (load of head and electrodes is changing) you cant use simple battery/solar cell and resistor .Connection to PC is best wirelees or use otocoupler .


reverse polarity gives opposite effect
-is not that simple is far more complex (nuron type , its orientation to the DC field,afferent conncetion, and many more)

[treonsverdery]

I wonder if you could use a transistor to detect over or under 1 mA then have the transistor direct the brightness of one of the LEDS to differently power the photovoltaic to always converge on 1mA

heres a reference on reversing the polarity reverses the learning polarity http://download.cell...termediate=true
We found that during numerical learning, anodal stimulation
to the right parietal lobe and cathodal stimulation to the left
parietal lobe (RA-LC group) caused better and more consistent
performance in both numerical tasks. In contrast, the opposite
configuration, anodal stimulation to the left parietal lobe and
cathodal stimulation to the right parietal lobe (RC-LA group),
led to underperformance,

when it is connected right it improves a kind of math ability noticeably

 Untitled.png   123.36KB   20 downloads

The reason that higher graph numbers means better learning here, the paper says, is Automatic numerical processing can be assessed with a numerical Stroop paradigm

22, 23].
In this paradigm,
subjects are presented with two numerical stimuli on the
computer screen and are required to compare the stimuli according
to their physical size. The stimuli can be incongruent

(e.g., a physically large 2 and a physically small 4), neutral
(e.g., a physically small 2 and a physically large 2), or
congruent (e.g., a physically small 2 and a physically large 4).
Congruity effects reflect automatic numerical processing:
longer reaction times for incongruent trials in comparison to
congruent trials. Such an effect with symbolic numbers characterizes
competent numerical ability


This is not an actual circuit diagram, it communicates though that rather like an antenna telling a transistor to pass more electricity you can use the current at the electrode to direct LED brightness with most risks reduced. I suppose that if you had a resistor capacitor pair at the electrode circuit, that rc circuit could light up an optoisolator to say when 1mA was precisely on



 mesoidiot.png   21.54KB   15 downloads

Edited by treonsverdery, 12 April 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[ATA]

little better but still will not be working
- you connect the transitor to the circut this means the same problem: its connect to the computer
- divice be very large and unpractical and no have any advantage
- for powering device allwayes use battery
- you can use solar power to recharge the battery but not for powering a circut is impractical
- PC is be good to setup constant current and more complex waveforms but this need more complicated circut


the study about matth and tDCS is old and i be do many things other way , yes in very simplistic way + = ON(anodal) - = OFF(cathodal)
but if you look closely its not taht simple. In my opinion in the stidy is wrong electrode position and to large lectrode pads that modulate half of the brain this not veri idela if you tried figured aout what precize part of cortex do.Some math function ison bouth sides of brain they one side turn up and other down bettr is be work with bouth on or off.

[treonsverdery]

would you like (USB LED)----3|| (PV powered electrode circuit) thats where a inductor senses the current at the electrode circuit to modulate the LED
also I think this is way tinier than any microcontroller version. Thinking about a battery, the PV filling up a capacitor or RC circuit at the electrode side to keep current continuous only matters if you are actually going to use it with sunlight rather thanb USB power, yet I like the sunlight idea

I appreciate that you actually made one of these while I am just suggesting

I think they would be more popular if they were pretty as well

visual these adhesive skin jewels with a layered microbattery as well as a pretty wire to another jewel

 Pretty tDCS.jpg   102.9KB   6 downloads

[ATA]

i primary working on improving effectivity and focality of stimulation ,design is the last thing i dount bother with it in this time becouse next version is maybe absolutly different and make design is slowing me down.

[ATA]

i just find this :

They succeeded. In both samples, patients who had suffered damage to the ventro-medial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC), which sits a few inches behind the center of the forehead, seemed to be protected against depression. Compared to people who had suffered lesions to all of the other parts of the brain, people with vmPFC damage on both sides of the brain were rated as having fewer depressive symptoms, both according to their own report and the observations of the experimenters. In particular, they reported being almost completely free of emotional or subjective symptoms such as feelings of guilt, sadness, or self-dislike. For illustration, they describe the incredible (and ironic) case of a woman with a self-inflicted vmPFC lesion:

We identified one patient in the Iowa registry who represents an intriguing case of an apparent alleviation of severe depression after a bilateral vmPFC lesion. ... per secondary report the patient was being treated for depression when she attempted suicide 11 years ago by means of a gunshot to the head. The gunshot destroyed most of ventral PFC, including vmPFC bilaterally, but left intact most of dorsal PFC. The patient’s neuropsychologist, neurosurgeon, and long-term boyfriend all remarked that her depression was markedly diminished after the brain injury (boyfriend, speaking 16 months after the injury: “no sign of depression whatsoever since the accident”; neuropsychologist: “she never shows distress, worry, or anger”).[/indent][indent=1]

*it remains many questuion like did this infuence the positive emotion too
Its worth a test use vmPFC like a catode in DLPFC stimulation

Edited by ATA, 16 April 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[bkaz]

Cool find ATA! I think this is not so much an intrinsic property of vmPFC, but its connectivity with amygdala:

From wikipedia: "Research in developmental neuroscience also suggested that neural networks in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex are rapidly developing during adolescence and young adulthood supporting emotion regulation through the amygdala"

[ATA]

yes i cout with it similar that DLPFC large part of effect is becouse limbic sistem moduation .Main guestion is how this part and connection work turn OFF or ON deperesion .
DLPFC can turn OFF depresion but is not entirly automatic(but stimulation do large part) its take some menetal effort , its like give you a chance to continuesly influence the limbic system.

[bkaz]

Right, I wonder if there can be a way to partly disable amygdalae without turning into a vegetable . It is such an atavistic thing, we could be far superior beings without its pestering.

[ATA]

Turning it all off is not ideal you may become a robot . Also you cant do it directly tDCS reach the amygdala but effect is unfocused and noone knouw what stimulation do.
Better way is learn how to control it , it is posible but not easi (some work is needet). tDCS is great help with this by activation of DLPC but is only one part of puzzele without other techniniqes is effect only teporal.

Control emotion is nothing new people do that for thousntd of years and you can fins method in various tradition.With moder science is this method become more user ferndly and effective.
Basic theory and method you may learn in half the day and itermmeditaly feel the effect of it but master it take years.(difference between teporaly shut down porogram and rewriting it)

[bkaz]

I mostly agree, & personally don't have any emotional problems, relative to most people. But I think there must be a way to selectively inhibit amygdalae -> vmPFC connections, while leaving the return connections intact.

[Ampa-omega]

i dont know if you guys seen this but i thought it was interesting
http://www.longecity...y-same-gateway/
maybe tDCS can be utilized on this sort of brain region?

The research, conducted by a team of researchers led by Michael N. Tombu at Vanderbilt University’s Marois Lab, found that the inferior frontal junction, superior medial frontal cortex, and bilateral insula are directly involved in capacity limited processing. The experimental design utilized three interrelated experiments: The first imaged isolated brain regions involved in response selection; the second imaged the same areas during perceptual encoding’ and the third tracked decision-making delays caused by concurrent perceptual encoding.

by increasing functions of certain areas of the brain, the entire brain can process more information. All functions must go through this funnel to be processed...

Think fast: Speed of thought and perception limited by unified neocortical gateway

(Medical Xpress) -- Historically, perceptual and response rates when multitasking have been interpreted as being limited by independent bottlenecks. While a more recent view suggests that a common bottleneck might be the cause, experimental evidence for its existence have not been determinative. Recently, however, researchers at Vanderbilt University used time-resolved functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) – where both the topography and temporal sequence of cortical activation across brain regions is examined – to identify a unified attentional bottleneck – a network of regions that apparently limits the speeds at which perceptual encoding and decision-making can occur.

http://medicalxpress...eocortical.html

capacity limited processing...does anyone know what does that mean? what is that good for? like calculating large mathematical numbers? Quote: inferior frontal junction, superior medial frontal cortex, and bilateral insula are directly involved in capacity limited processing

Edited by Ampa-omega, 17 April 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[ATA]

i look at it and let you knouw

i assume this may be similar like my consciousness bandwitch theory

--
in article is minimum info i look at full text http://www.pnas.org/...nt/108/33/13426

Edited by ATA, 17 April 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[ATA]

ROIs corresponded to anterior superior
medial frontal cortex (aSMFC), left intraparietal sulcus (IPS),
left inferior frontal junction (IFJ), and bilateral insula

tDCS DLPFC protocol modulate this areas to because of his unfocality

for what is good for you may do better mutlitasking ,be aware of infirmation from enviroment and beter working with it, saving to memory (very simplified ) . In the study is about if you try to do more this things whaht part of brain lights up ,but this only tell you that part doing somthing with data

[Ampa-omega]

ROIs corresponded to anterior superior
medial frontal cortex (aSMFC), left intraparietal sulcus (IPS),
left inferior frontal junction (IFJ), and bilateral insula

tDCS DLPFC protocol modulate this areas to because of his unfocality

for what is good for you may do better mutlitasking ,be aware of infirmation from enviroment and beter working with it, saving to memory (very simplified ) . In the study is about if you try to do more this things whaht part of brain lights up ,but this only tell you that part doing somthing with data

thankyou, and thankyou for getting the study.

i understand you are not native english speaker so communication may be hard, but i appreciate your work here.
i think it would be interesting to use tDCS on those brain areas
(inferior frontal junction, superior medial frontal cortex, and bilateral insula) mentioned in the study, im not an expert on the neuroscience. but can it be done with tDCS?

DLPFC protocal would effect these areas?

Edited by Ampa-omega, 17 April 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[ATA]

its can be done for inferior frontal junction, superior medial frontal cortex (but i must look at it in more detail) insula is deep in the brain tDCS can influence it but effect is to unfocall and in this stimulatiou you will be stimulatincg buch of other parts.

DLPFC protocol with standart pads current go to almoust whole the forehead is largely unfocal and unfluancing amyn areas in way tahn noone can reali predict
the name DPLPC protocol is in fact very oversimplified the anode is above DLPPFC but max effect of brain may be someone else. There is many problems with targeting in standart tDCS i try to geting imporve it.
Paradoxly the efect of DLPFC stimulation on depresion may not by caused by DLPFC but other parts tahat unfocal stimulation influence.

---
neuroscience is only my hobby i never officialy studied thid and slill have large gaps in knowledge
becouse that every inforation from my try to get proved from other sources too
---
may english is pretty bad i dinnt bother with grammar ,my dyslexia not add much to it too

[Ampa-omega]

thanks for the information, you do have a couple spelling mistakes but i can still understand what you are trying to say.

There is many problems with targeting in standart tDCS i try to improve it./can be done for inferior frontal junction, superior medial frontal cortex (but i must look at it in more detail)/insula is deep in the brain tDCS can influence it

i dont know anything really about building a tDCS machine but i would like to try tDCS with these brain regions, if you could figure it out i would be interested to hear how it works for you, if you can try it on those regions, thanks for the feedback

Edited by Ampa-omega, 17 April 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[zeroskater6979]

im not as tech savvy as some of the posters on this thread, but i really want to use tDCS with its multitude of benefits. One of the studies that i really thought interesting said that as soon as 5 days after tDCS the brain starts to wire itself more efficiently by creating more myelin in the white matter tracts or something involving white matter. there's this start up that will sell their DIY devices that will save me the trouble of creating my own less than safe device, so im looking forward to experimenting with that and sharing my experience.

[ATA]

Ampa-omega:

its take some time to test i must first figured out a targeting problem


zeroskater6979
device is the simplest part , electrode and its posisionig its large problem.
May be some cheap tDCS soon aviable to sell , dount have a resources/time to sell tDCS but i try to help others like foc.us and goflow projects to improve ther devices.

[bkaz]

my dyslexia not add much to it too

Interesting. I noticed that, in spite of your mangled prose (), you do have some deep insights into neuroscience (of course, this is coming from another hobbyist ).

What do you think about Casanova's idea that dyslexia is symptomatic of relatively "sparse" cortical architecture, vs. autism as symptomatic of a relatively "dense" one: http://www.medical-h...0549-0/abstract, http://minicolumn.org/people/casanova/?

In my blog, I interprete the difference as a "generalist vs. specialist" cognitive bias: http://cognitive-focus.blogspot.com/

[ATA]

you do have some deep insights into neuroscience
* my knowledge is veri limited to few specific topic, its becouse my style of learning links on links in various pages and studies rather than systemticly studing some theory from book.

i look to the blog and let you know , its take a while lots of text

[Ampa-omega]

Ampa-omega:

its take some time to test i must first figured out a targeting problem

zeroskater6979
device is the simplest part , electrode and its posisionig its large problem.
May be some cheap tDCS soon aviable to sell , dount have a resources/time to sell tDCS but i try to help others like foc.us and goflow projects to improve ther devices.

no pressure, if you do figure it out i would be interested to see what results from it.
i really want to get a tdcs machine, if there is a way to buy it pre-made already that would be good..
but if i have to make it myself i will, either way is ok.

Edited by Ampa-omega, 18 April 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[LeonardElijah]

Interesting, thanks.

I need to do reading before asking questions.

[ATA]

i read 2 your post in blog and this http://a-shade-of-gr...inicolumns.html (without discusion)

Interesting theory its may be one of factors.I loking at tlis like be a programs.

Autist sees the world as it really is with all of its complexity , and must adjust behavior acording to it.
A normal person sees the world what you want it, perception is distorted by filters and concept, rather chanhe the preciving of word than behavior.

The difference is in how they treat information with autist see unfiltered information and bad with creating a concepts .
Normal person its very goog with creating concept and see the world tought this concept.
Main problem is if you create the concept you and use it, In usage you see only the concepet but not data from its constructed.
Its like you look at the face and see face but abutist see nose,lips,pores,all parts (level depends on how concept cerating ablity).Its like see a PC code and dout know the langaue ,him see it all but dount knouw what meens.

Dyslexy extrem case where is more concept my brain work more efectivly (half true half joke)
I read a word right even if the ltters is in absolutly wrong order i can only see the word concept, but no data withs it forms. So I see this word without error even though there is an error(my brain filter it and show me only the concept). We have to put a lot of attention and read slowly to acces unfiltered data. This is a dark side of concepts ,programs is good save amny resources and do hard work,but if have bad program you in big trouble.

Theories about the anatomical predisposition is not complete (or can be altered by neuroplasticity ) because when i increase level of consciousness (tDCS ,mental techniqes) i be able get to/work with these unfiltered data and many other things like turn off the concepts or rewrite them.

my brain needed large software update some of emotion ,stress programs is ment for stone age not for modern society

[bkaz]

Autist sees the world as it really is with all of its complexity , and must adjust behavior acording to it...

Henry Markram calls autism an "intense world syndrom". But it's just a matter of degree, no one is a tape recorder. And this "density" bias is only a risk factor, there is specific pathology behind both autism & dyslexia. I am not a dyslexic, but do read & learn slowly. So, I like to think I am trading speed for depth .

some of emotion ,stress programs is ment for stone age not for modern society

And most of modern society was meant for long obsolete science & technology .

[treonsverdery]

You have likely already thought about this
When electricity affects a fluid or possibly a tissue, the amount of ions takes up very different volumes as a result of how protons (ions) move slowly compared with electrons.

 electro_na2so4.jpg   66.3KB   6 downloads

so that suggests the area size of a tDCS effect might be much different between anode n cathode until the ions diffuse which may contribute to its making people cleverer a little while after the electricity ceases.

Reshaping an ion diffusion area
It also suggests that the place with surplus electrons has immediate narrow region specificity of behavior, so if you or another scientist wanted small area effect that could be an option

 reshaping an ion diffusion area.png   31.77KB   6 downloads

So I am also wondering, if the polarities have different durations, could you use a three electrode system to
Reshape back part of the diffusing proton rich area You would use a nonhead electrode to give the e- somplace to go towards while skipping more superprotonation at the head.

Edited by treonsverdery, 19 April 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[ATA]

nice test but tDCS is far more complicated than that

look at http://brmlab.cz/pro...in_hacking/tdcs
in part: To DO planned improvements
This may give you a btter idea how complex is itts and hom amny diffrent parametrs aou must consider.

[Nootr]

The brain – perhaps the most important part in human body. It controls our body, he is responsible for our mind and emotions. And so for a long time, scientists believed all the world, yet the rule does not appear an exception that made scientists reconsider this postulate.
Cheerful American named Carlos Rodriguez lives with practically without brain. He does not have the frontal lobes, and in general there is little in the skull after a terrible car accident. But he is no different from other people when he is wearing a hat.

[treonsverdery]

I saw this current regulator at youtube. it is 54₵ at digikeyhttp://search.digike...20AT1G &x=0&y=0 . apparently it is a simple IC that produces 20 mA constant current so just put a resistor there then verify the series current is constant 1 or 2 mA through a variety of skin surface areas with a meter

I think you actually have to calculate though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT-8OGK0T00

Edited by treonsverdery, 08 May 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[ATA]

+-10% = bad
not setupable

constant current so just put a resistor there
Where ?