422 replies to this topic

[ATA]

updates on the site https://brmlab.cz/pr...in_hacking/tdcs

Anybody willing to help with theory, its too much of it for one person ?

[bkaz]

Anybody willing to help with theory, its too much of it for one person ?

By "theory", do you mean neuron-level mechanisms or brain-level inteactions? For what purpose?

[ATA]

iteraction of all levels electrodes ,skin,skull,folding,orinteation,fybers,cytoarchitecture,neuron,synapse , neurotransmiter , neural network on area , interconection of areas.........and many more

purpose is more precize stimulation and less side effects ,

use todays protocol is very unprecize they overlooked many important information

[bkaz]

iteraction of all levels electrodes ,skin,skull,folding,orinteation,fybers,cytoarchitecture,neuron,synapse , neurotransmiter , neural network on area , interconection of areas.........and many more
purpose is more precize stimulation and less side effects ,
use todays protocol is very unprecize they overlooked many important information

Yeah... wish I could help, but I am more of a potential consumer here, my real focus is elsewhere .

Just some ideas:

- It should be safer to suppress "distracting" areas than to stimulate directly.
- Precision: ideally, we should implant electrodes in the skull, grow back the skin over them, & stimulate them with something like inductive coupling | IR LEDs / photocells. They could alternatively be used for sensing / monitoring resulting activity, which is crucial. Of course, this is hugely more risky & complex, but I think ultimately unavoidable. It calls for a vast DIY community effort, you've already started that...
- Do you accept $ contributions? .

[ATA]

It should be safer to suppress "distracting" areas than to stimulate directly.
-its more complex

Precision: ideally, we should implant electrodes in the skull, grow back the skin over them, & stimulate them with something like inductive coupling | IR LEDs / photocells. They could alternatively be used for sensing / monitoring resulting activity, which is crucial. Of course, this is hugely more risky & complex, but I think ultimately unavoidable. It calls for a vast DIY community effort, you've already started that...
-cause more porblems than solve it ,For better focality must be under the skull not uder the skin nad this is imposible do homemade .Sensors uder the skin is posible do but have minimal adventage and there is problem with healing.


Do you accept $ contributions? .
-not thing about that yet but any help will be aprichiated .

[bkaz]

It should be safer to suppress "distracting" areas than to stimulate directly.
-its more complex

Yeah, probably need to shave bald & have a cathode covering half of the skull...

For better focality must be under the skull not uder the skin nad this is imposible do homemade.

It's possible, you just need a joystick-controlled drill. Shocking, I know .

Do you accept $ contributions? .
-not thing about that yet but any help will be aprichiated .

Is the "donate" button at the bottom of your page for you or for brmlab? If the latter, will they transfer it to you?

[ATA]

Yeah, probably need to shave bald & have a cathode covering half of the skull...
-i have other way i plan to buld 10channels HD-TDCS

It's possible, you just need a joystick-controlled drill. Shocking, I know .
-very bad idea you need special drill sterile room and all tools , anestetic,measurment eqipment and many more ,this is definytly not for DIY science .Ans if you do all this you nedinitly not use tDCS lectrode but some multielecrode array or laser nerve stimulatin.The electrod i must by made from special materils idaly with enzymes and other specila stuff needed to body acept it.

Is the "donate" button at the bottom of your page for you or for brmlab? If the latter, will they transfer it to you?
-its for brmlab, i try get more info about transfering donation direcly to tDCS project

[bkaz]

It's possible, you just need a joystick-controlled drill. Shocking, I know .
-very bad idea you need special drill sterile room and all tools , anestetic,measurment eqipment and many more ,this is definytly not for DIY science .Ans if you do all this you nedinitly not use tDCS lectrode but some multielecrode array or laser nerve stimulatin.The electrod i must by made from special materils idaly with enzymes and other specila stuff needed to body acept it.

I didn't say it would be easy, but technology gets better & more accessible, the real problem is expertise. And that's the best way to monitor local activity.
Anyway, I understand why you wouldn't want to associate with this idea.

[LCNS]

Hi,

You are being invited to participate in a research study conducted by the University of Pennsylvania. Your participation is voluntary which means you can choose whether or not you want to participate.

The Laboratory of Cognition and Neural Stimulation at the University of Pennsylvania is involved in research using transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS). In recent years this technology has increased in popularity, and evidence suggests that some individuals may be constructing their own stimulators for personal use. We are interested in examining the reasons behind this. Please answer the questions below, and email them to braintdcs@gmail.com to give us insight into why people make their own tDCS machines.

Questions

• Where did you first learn about tDCS?
• Have you built your own tDCS machine?
• Where did you get the information to build the machine?
• Why did you want to try brain stimulation?
• How long have you been using tDCS?
• What were your experiences with this technology?
• Did you ever experience any side-effects?

The research team may use information about you collected from your responses. By completing the questionnaire, you are giving your consent to participate in this study. Once you email us, your responses are not considered confidential since emails do not protect confidentiality.

Thanks,

Research Specialist
Laboratory of Cognition and Neural Stimulation
University of Pennsylvania

[ATA]

hi
i repost it in facebook discusion ,reddit, my brmlab page ,and is be moved to front page in DIY tDCS blog

[bkaz]

-i have other way i plan to buld 10channels HD-TDCS

Yeah that's better. Not only more focal, but you can combine multiple-site stimulation & suppression to minimize effective current. Is that 10 / hemispere? Are you trying to make it dyri-specific? I guess that's impossible without MRI, & you probably need to mount them on a rigid helmet, & shave your head? Do you know how much more current gets to gyri vs. sulci? I couldn't get to bonsai either, are you using some other models?

Is the "donate" button at the bottom of your page for you or for brmlab? If the latter, will they transfer it to you?
-its for brmlab, i try get more info about transfering donation direcly to tDCS project

Well, I guess that didn't work, I pm-d you .

[ATA]

very thanks for donation , i create a playpal account

Yeah that's better. Not only more focal, but you can combine multiple-site stimulation & suppression to minimize effective current. Is that 10 / hemispere? Are you trying to make it dyri-specific? I guess that's impossible without MRI, & you probably need to mount them on a rigid helmet, & shave your head? Do you know how much more current gets to gyri vs. sulci? I couldn't get to bonsai either, are you using some other models?
*this is parameters of panned device ,maybe be some changes i must consult this with others more skilled with electronic : 10 channels setupable by PC (probably wireless) ,0-3mA to chnnel, min voltage "band " +-0-20V idelaly 0-50V,stimulator can by cable stimulte AC,DC,pulsed .. porbably also complex waveforms .Islo have idea use fo internal memory to use without PC.Current setup is by bidicestional so you can use 10channels in any combination
*i plan to use interindividual variabllity of ROI (gyri) map to target specific area ,idel is be personal MRI
*i try to send question to Bikson trough one scinetist about the bonsai (waiting to response)
*i dout have any modeling soft only some pictures from studies i try to get some but thery is the othere porblems needet to sove first.

Past few dayes i trying to uderstant how prefrontal cortex work , function of various parts its interconectivyty and dependenece.
This info be very useful to determinate where stimulate and guess positive nad side effect.If go well in next pahase i plan to each area create some info + how to test it.
Testing is be very important to avoid long term side effect .Test is needed not only for are uder the anode but from all area in path of current and areas connected (infuenced) the today research moustly look oly for active electrode affect uder it.

This complex testing is porabaly only way how to do safe long-term use stimulatin.

Notes about Prefrontal cortex - total chaos gathering info stage
https://brmlab.cz/pr...acking/tdcs/pfc

[zeroskater6979]

does anyone know how the GoFlow device is going along?

[bkaz]

very thanks for donation , i create a playpal account

Sure, thanks for doing all the research!

Testing is be very important to avoid long term side effect .Test is needed not only for are uder the anode but from all area in path of current and areas connected (infuenced) the today research moustly look oly for active electrode affect uder it.
This complex testing is porabaly only way how to do safe long-term use stimulatin.

Right, & you can't test very much without drilling the skull . Longer term, I think fNIRS will be a great tool, & IR lasers could probably do very precise transcranial stimulation too, but it's not there yet.

Past few dayes i trying to uderstant how prefrontal cortex work , function of various parts its interconectivyty and dependenece.
This info be very useful to determinate where stimulate and guess positive nad side effect.If go well in next pahase i plan to each area create some info + how to test it. Notes about Prefrontal cortex - total chaos gathering info stage
https://brmlab.cz/pr...acking/tdcs/pfc

Good luck with that, I don't think neuroscience has anything definite. Individual functional variability in PFC is too great, the best guide I think is the pattern of myelination as we grow up. It tracks relative generality of knowledge in corresponding areas, & DLPFC is the last to myelinate. I think the best summary is "Prefrontal Cortex" by J. Fuster, but I've only read his "Cortex & Mind".

[bkaz]

Past few dayes i trying to uderstant how prefrontal cortex work , function of various parts its interconectivyty and dependenece.

Here's a good overview of fronto-parietal network: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3342558/
My use for tDCS would be to improve top-down vs. bottom-up attention, according to this article this would involve reinforcing layer 5 vs. layer 4. Luckily, tDCS seems to act mostly on layer 5 . But it's unclear to me if layer 5 generates feedback from dlPFC to PPC, or only within each region?
So, I guess for my purpose the anodes should be on left dlPFC & PPC, and cathodes on primary sensory cortices, except for auditory?

[ATA]

Expedimental HD-TDCS headset



more pictures http://orlin.rajce.idnes.cz/tdcs

i also little update the page
https://brmlab.cz/pr...in_hacking/tdcs

Edited by ATA, 18 June 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Nootr]

What are the benefits of this 5 contact version versus 2 contact version?

[CognitionCoefficient]

Good luck with that, I don't think neuroscience has anything definite. Individual functional variability in PFC is too great, the best guide I think is the pattern of myelination as we grow up. It tracks relative generality of knowledge in corresponding areas, & DLPFC is the last to myelinate. I think the best summary is "Prefrontal Cortex" by J. Fuster, but I've only read his "Cortex & Mind".

Can tDCS induce myelination in the DLPFC?

[ATA]

5 electrode version allows better focality, targeting and also reduce the effect of cathode. Is posible target also peripendicular or radial to nerve fibers.In planned version will have each channel (electrode) iderpedned current setup planed is 10 channels(electrodes) device.Now is only anode and joined cathode .

[bkaz]

Can tDCS induce myelination in the DLPFC?

It should increase it, as long as you don't overdo it, & local schwann cells are not senescent. Myelination reflects the level activity in the axons.

[bkaz]

5 electrode version allows better focality,

So, 4 peripheral electrodes are cathods? That will improve focality, but I think it will inhibit adjacent areas, which may also be important? I'd rather inhibit specific areas that compete with the function I want to stimulate.

[ATA]

inhibition will depens on many factors (size,shunting,current density) in ths cofiguration be current uder cathode 1/4 of anode current also is posible make cathode bigger and use different configuration there are hudreds of posibilities.

Hard to tell what is limit for inhibition effect for stadnart electrodes is consider below 28uA/cm2 uneffective but some reserch show effct in 17uA/cm2 this is electrode density in electriode not in brain so is needet more counting for HD-TDCS is the limit be much higher (size, shunting) maybe even above 100uA/cm2.This complex things need computer modeling.

[bkaz]

Hard to tell what is limit for inhibition effect for stadnart electrodes is consider below 28uA/cm2 uneffective

Thanks ATA! So, if cathods are "ineffective", they increase focality through skin conductance?

[ATA]

Its more complex .Skin conductance cause shunting if electrode is closer together the effect is larger so you must use more current density on electrode to push same amount of current to the brain.Similar effect have the size current form smaller electrode notreach that deep (current on brain is lower).This and other effect must be consider whne we change the electrode size and its position.

Because that is alwayes needed info about electrode size ,current density on elextrodes and electrode position without this information is imposible count current in the brain (still is very orentitonal but allwos replicate the setup ). The interindividual varibality may have reduce or increase (depend of start point) the current reaching the brain as much as 50% and varibilyty in foldin can even reverse effect of tDCS (anode will acting as cathode ..)

So is no easi answer what cathode current density will be unefective we can only guess based on many studies or make bunch of expediments and measure the effect. Is very importatnt not test only area uder the anode but also effect in areas uder the catohode and idealy in whole current path between it nad in rest of the brain .Use cognitive testwitch test more than one function, stdies dount bother witch that they interested only about effect on stimulated area uder active electrode .Fof home use and long term use we must consider effect on this other areas nad test it .

[bkaz]

No, what I meant is, if cathods are ineffective in the brain, how do they improve focality? It seems that if you put them close to anode, they will simply divert the current from the brain to the skin, there will be no stimulation.
Re. cognitive tests, they only work for simple tasks, that's not what dlPFC does.

[ATA]

may english is not that good to explain this complex things try look at this http://bme.ccny.cuny...SuParra2011.pdf

some info is also here http://bme.ccny.cuny...e-embc-2012.pdf and here http://bme.engr.ccny...urnalOfPain.pdf

[nbourbaki]

Interesting write up. While this topic has faded, I thought I would share

http://www.wired.com...k-inner-savant/

[treonsverdery]

I support this topic. if TDCs makes people twice as effective at simulations as the newscientist article says, have people tried it on on other body areas? can I modify how many times I can press a key with very mild DC to a part of the arm? Could one increase or decrease GI tract motility with a fantastically mild 9v electric pill with a few milliamp surface? as bizarre as an electric diet pill sounds, it may be possible, which would address most cardiovascular disease.

it seems like the cochlear nerves are actually nearer to a mild electrical current at the outer ear valley than the brain is to the outside of the head, would zonally electrifyinging (just like TDCs, as earDCs) the near ear area increase or possiblly temporarily decrease hearing? It would be wild, stretching believability if people here lacked data on tdcs, if simply 9v near the ear, increased hearing ability noticeably. also unlike cognitive tdcs measures this would be rapid n simple to verify as a casual scientist.

Edited by treonsverdery, 13 August 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[BuddhaBandit]

For all those interested in tDSC without having to spend a fortune or learn electronics, I've been following a very interesting thread in a Neurotalk support group for sufferers of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) http://neurotalk.psy...60980.html The OP called 'Ballerina' has successfully adapted an Activa Dose II Iontophoresis Delivery Unit , having been part of a tDCS clinical trial at Beth Israel,NY. THESE UNITS ARE AFFORDABLE. She explains what extra bits you need and where to get them. It's worth a read. She has researched widely and successfully administered treatment to herself.

Just want to fix the link above. It's just http://neurotalk.psy...read160980.html

[lester1]

Hello Everyone,

I am adding my experience with tdcs to this forum for your thoughts and opinions. I also want to add my experience for research purposes since i know people in the medical and research field read these forums.

The last 4 days I have been testing my own tdcs therapy. I have zero medical experience. I am a businessman. For years I have suffered from depression and have short term memory problems. I am sick of living with these issues and am desperate to try something new that might help me. Drugs do not help and make me feel even worse!

I think I have found my cure. Weather its short term or long term I dont know yet. I wanted to share my experiences with you all. I would advise not to try what i did. Some might say i over did the electricity current level but at this point in my life i dont care. The results i have experienced were worth it.


I attached the anode+ wire with a wet sponge to my left prefrontal cortex, and the cathode - wire with a sponge 3 inches above my right eye.

I used a 9 volt 1.5a AC adapter that i plugged into a surge protector. I didnt feel any pain or flashes, just some slight itching, tingling and some redness at the site where the wet sponges were put. I got between 7-8 hours of sleep a night during the days of testing. I normally NEVER dream.


Here are my results:

DAY 1 Sunday
Approximately 6 minutes kept on skull to try out - Right after I Felt like I had 2 cups of coffee. I was wide awake afterwards, my brain felt like i was absorbing things like i never have, completely focused and didnt have ANY negative thoughts no matter how hard i tried to think negatively. I had a crazy intense dream that night.

DAY 2 Monday
Approximately 8 minutes kept on skull - Felt good, rode my bike to work 7 miles, had a numbing feeling in my mind throughout the day, but did feel slightly positive and happy. I definately noticed a positive difference compared to my usual self. Lots of dreaming that night!!!

DAY 3 Tuesday
Approximately 10 minutes kept on skull - Felt the same as the day before. I noticed i was laser like focused at work. ZERO negaive thoughts of feelings. Felt like I was living automatic. My day at work flew by. Time accellerated it felt.

DAY 4 Wednesday
Approximately 10 minutes kept on skull - Felt good, rode my bike to work again 7 miles, had somewhat of a numbing feeling in my brain throughout the day, felt extremely focused. Had a wild dream that night that I was advising President Obama!! lol

DAY 5 Thursday
Approximately 10 minutes kept on skull - Felt good, rode my bike to work again 7 miles, had a numbing feeling in my head throughout the day, felt extremely focused.(more than I ever have!) I noticed my head felt heavy. Some dreaming.
DAY 6 Friday (today) - NO TREATMENT



CONCLUSION: So given the electricity level I used to zap my skull I have no idea how much electricity actually went to my brain. I just know my results were so much better than taking drugs. My head right now still feels heavy. I do feel numb to all emotions, like love, hate, negative, or positive thoughts. Creativity feels much less. I just feel extremely focused right now. Even my boss and coworkers noticed how focused i am. No change in cognitive or motor functions, memeory feels slightly improved, I felt no pain at all throughtout this entire process. Overall I feel good. I am not doign this treatment again until i see how long it lasts, till i feel depressed again.

Lester