422 replies to this topic

[Absent]

So have any of you guys noticed any significant positive change in mental state from doing this? I'm doing my experiment right now with a 3.9k resistor which should bring my current down to 2.3mA... which the multi meter seems to confirm.

Anode pad on left temple, cathode pad above right eye. Noticeable tingly/"electrifying" sensation under the anode pad.

[Absent]

I seem to feel more focused, but I noticed something very strange......... I removed my battery cap from my 9v to test if the battery was still good.... and when I did this there was a very very minor white flash over my vision, not even more than a fraction of a milisecond, not enough to hide anything from vision.... so I experimented.... every time I touched the cap to the 9v, basically switching the current on and off, there would be this white flash over my vision.

Very strange... significant? Probably not. Related to the current... definitely.

Edited by Siro, 09 May 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[SUB-Rx]

Siro,
Search the link below for "phosphenes" to explain the flashing. Most devices that you can purchase for TDCS ramp up/down the current to avoid what you are experiencing.

http://www.biomedcen...1471-2202/11/38

[ATA]

formergenius : use copper and normal sponge is nost best idea copper very fast corode and product may harm the skin in worst case may travel to the skin doue to the ionthoforesis

same probelm is for aluminium and amyn others. Safe to use is carbon ,cabon rubber , polyimide conductive foil.IF you plan only few tests you can use stainles steal is not very good but sificient for few test (unknown risk of Ni and Cr ions ) sainless steal sometimes work weel without change but someteimes very fast corode probably depend on the type .

Siro : EKG electrodedes didnt fork for TDCS weel the corode very fast and make bubbles in gel fith caus non even distribution in current (i test only one type of disposable EKG electrode another type may work)
if you plan test it cerount current for smaler size of electrode .

[lester1]

Do not do tdcs before sleep!. I tried that once and I was wide awake all night.

[formergenius]

formergenius : use copper and normal sponge is nost best idea copper very fast corode and product may harm the skin in worst case may travel to the skin doue to the ionthoforesis

same probelm is for aluminium and amyn others. Safe to use is carbon ,cabon rubber , polyimide conductive foil.IF you plan only few tests you can use stainles steal is not very good but sificient for few test (unknown risk of Ni and Cr ions ) sainless steal sometimes work weel without change but someteimes very fast corode probably depend on the type .

Ok thank you for warning me! Could you tell me how to construct these electrodes? I believe there were several factors into play, and that I cannot simply make a 2x2" or 7x5cm electrode and have the same conductivity/effect? I'm going to buy some polyimide foil right now, so I'd be very grateful for your further advice.

Update on device: I ordered the CRD's already, but I was talking with the person from the electronics store, and he gave me some resistors to fiddle with. I can now make 1000, 1200, 1500 and 1900 uA output. However there is no fuse incorporated, or any other safety measure other than the regular diode and capacitor. Is this sufficiently safe?

[Absent]

Based on past experience of mine something tells me it may be beneficial to soak our sponges in water that has baking soda in it. I have done certain chemistry experiments in the past and the higher the mineral concentration, the better the water conducts, so this may be increase the conductivity on the sponges on the skin.

Do not do tdcs before sleep!. I tried that once and I was wide awake all night.

That's really weird. I tried it for 30 minutes, with definite effects, but it didn't keep me up at all.

Can you post a picture how where you place your electrodes, or what electrodes you're using exactly?

[ATA]

i try make some pictures of prototipes made from polyimide foil (probably next week )

few hits:
dount solder conductive foil its imposible istead use "ring" from bare wire and tape it with small peice of some tape next step is glue foil witch atached wire to some firm support best is some hydrofobic materil witch is slightly bendable to make good contact wiit head firm palte is not good becouse corners be in air (no contact with skin) . I use some rubber disc with some aghesive glue for HD-TDCs and some peace of rubber or plastic folam for larger ones. I glue rubber nad foil together with hot glue gun .Its important cove whole erea with wire contact to avoid its corosion and movemnt.Its aso good use some foam aroud the conductive area to protect spilage of salt water. Its hard form me write it its be apatent form pictures.

[ATA]

in and of the album few older prototipes http://orlin.rajce.idnes.cz/tdcs

in HD ones mising elestic ring ,filling tube, and this http://orlin.rajce.i...cs#SL370012.jpg to connect to cap
also mising pictures of HD-tdcs cap but is make by same principe like this http://orlin.rajce.i...5-13_17.292.jpg

[soulfiremage]

Ok folks. Hyper positive effects today, I did a session last night. Anode on left pfc, larger cathode on right. Then this morning half on left temple and round to pfc plus larger pad on right pfc.

Before I say more, I'm a chronic and possibly over abuser of modafinil, have been for over two years due to a boring day job that I sleep all too easy from. I take breaks from the moda, took one last week for ten days. I'm VERY familiar with how this stuff works in both good and baaaad ways. I used a little too much this morning due to having a long long drive to a clients. This would usually result in jitters, along with tongue tripping and impairment of performance. And hyperactivity but less sense.

I got hyperactivity. I got focus. I got easy square number arithmetic and reasoning to while away a four drive. I got a two hour non stop lecture to a special friend who likes to har me ramble on, only this was my best yet, despite a full day of driving and working that was way outside my usual sat at the office day.

The lecture was about self similarity and fractals, complex behaviour from simple rules and how society and neuronal structures mirror each other, emergent properties and how time was one-I was playing at this point. The vocabulary was fast but solid, the metaphors rich and varied, the sensation was Me Plus and I loved it. That's six tdcs sessions since I got it.

I know the speedy nature of moda, caffeine etc. I know, now, the unexpected shit mood from a misplaced electrode. I can't measure this for you in a decent test-my interests don't lie in simply measuring performance but in simply getting a real effect.

I got it. And I know I should be measuring, proving and all that but honestly I don't fancy practical around with mental tests when I can simply spend this time studying stuff I need. My motivation is climbing-at last-and I feel I've finally found a nice, genuine, piece of the puzzle of accessing my possibilities without the fuck movitation gremlin getting in my way. Here is the duly bound caution part: of course it's not a magic cure or anything but its a bloody decent start.

Actually I realise I won't reach Limitless this way, but this is the closest sensation I've ever had to it.

Now can anyone give me a solid reason, beyond the precautionary principle, why 30 mins is the max time?

And yes, the moda plus a very long, tiring drive, too much caffeine, has really finally made me a little over vocal

[formergenius]

ATA: thank you for the repy. I decided to go with sponge electrodes anyway. They don't last as long, but I figured the copper plate is so cheap I could just use the same electrodes for 3 sessions.

soulfireimage: Awesome! Glad you get such good results.

I just did a trial run of my set-up. However I needed someone else to help me with cranial measurements. I found F3 to be conveniently located underneith a mole. Oh that's right, I shaved my head for this project. Cathode was placed on the contralateral supraorbital (Fp2).

I was having trouble getting the electrodes on with the straps I bought, so I taped them with electrical tape to see if the thing actually worked. Hooked up the multimeter into the circuit to read live measurements. This trial was done with (? ohm) 1000 uM output (measured first without sponges etc.) and provided a live-output of 700 uA once I pressed the sponges down on my head. I noticed a slight tingling feeling, and I thought I saw flashes, but they were very dim and could have just been my HPPD+nervousness. After having concluded the thing worked, I decided to discontinue and change resistors.

Now I noticed the sponges needed to be pressed down firmly to achieve anything, so I had to let go of the electrical tape montage. I reassesed my velcro straps, and managed to get the sponges firmly into position. Dripping was wiped off as needed. The output of having this particular resistor in the circuit was 1460 uA without sponge set-up. I connected everything and read a steady 1000 uA on the multi-meter. Disconnected multi-meter from the circuit and continued. This trial lasted aprox. 3 minutes. The reason for this is that the crocodile clip of the Fp2 cathode sponge electrode was pressing down on my skin, and I felt a accumulating burning sensation. Not painful, but annoying. Note that the F3 anode did not provide this sensation, for the crocodile clip was not pressed down on my skin.

Sadly, the person I requested assistance of is a very anxious person. Being already nervous for this project, and having constant safety questions thrown at me, I got very, very agitated. I told her thanks for her help and that I no longer needed assistance, but she refused to leave in fear of my health. I might've said some mean things. Anyway it is advised to be relaxed when applying tDCS, so now I figure I'll just cool down for a bit, and give my secondhighest (1900 uA spongeless output) resistor a try, and this time for the full twenty minutes. I must say, I do feel different, but this could very well be to the agitation, nervousness and the straps being so tight on my head. Add sleep deprivation, and well I suppose drinking a glass of water could be attributed to cognitive change. I'll update in a few hours.

Any suggestions on what the best placement would be for anxiety?

[soulfiremage]

Damn ipad just killed my war and peace post, and I don't feel like writing it all again on iPad.

Lookit this folks!

http://www.foc.us/

I'm gonna get this.

Anxiety, try good old fashioned above right eyebrow spot cathode and left dlpfc anode. And don't upset friends dude! Hope you gonna say sorry and give her roses....

Damn I must find sleep. And is shaving really needed?



Ps lazy ass grammar and phrasing is not bad tdcs effects. It's lying down iPad typing and its hurting...night!

[soulfiremage]

Seven of nine style jewellery needs to become fashion for geeks,

That way we can hide our thinking caps in plain sight

[formergenius]

soulfireimage: I pre-ordered that sucker. Or well, I joined the mailing list. They come out for pre-order the 13th I believe.
And guys... Damn I don't know I hate to be cheering to early (or w/e the saying is in english), but this stuff is AWESOME!
For the first time in a long time I had silence in my head. I haven't magically changed (yet?), but I am most certainly in an elevated mood. My thoughts are quicker, sharper.
Moreover, albeit randomly, my visual recall is better. Some neurons must have reconnected and fired up some clear as day images for my mind to enjoy.
Other than that I've experienced random jolts of joy or just finding random things funny (I thought of Mickey Mouse, I have no clue why).
I do have intermittent anxious or depressed thoughts, however it is much easier to divert from them, or to rationalize stuff. Positivity definitely gained.
Ohhh how I hope this effect stays every time I do this. And this was half power I believe, not even!

I'll do the details tomorrow, I'm a bit too excited. Looking here at a picture which has been lying on my desk for over a year now... Haven't been able to feel much emotion the last year. It's a pic of my first gf and I, and I remember happiness. Short, not fully intense, but it's there. Again, I would hate to sound so positive about this stuff, only to find out it was some very strange placebo.. but then again that thought probably just arises from the fear it won't work next time, and I presume I would be able to conclude the mean effect of this all. Very, very pleased with the outcome.

And yes, I hugged, instead of ignored as usual, the person I was rude to.

Note: 2 miniature burnmarks on my skin from the cathode. 1 from my second trial, the other from the one I just did. Read somewhere cathode size needs to be bigger than anode. However it's nothing horrible, and I'll live.
The most positive effect I had uptill now is this sudden brief... what to call it... transfer? Back into reality, but very, very vivid. Which is nice after all this derealization. I felt alive for the first time in a year! Must. Leave. Keyboard.

[ATA]

from some reserch 20 min is better than 30 min longer stimulation may have reverse effect probably is also depent of stimulation site
is be beter use 2x20min than 40min

how to find position
http://brmlab.cz/pro...ain_hacking/eeg

F3 locator http://clinicalresearcher.org/F3/

if you realy do use copper clean it after every aplication and be wath for grean stuff on the head site of sponge if itbe green is not safe to use it

[ATA]

I just mail to foc.us witch few question about the device . The electrode configuration is strange .

[soulfiremage]

I watched the amazing story of the bone marrow donor saving an old year olds life. I cried a bit. Usually. I'm a bit untouched I guess. I wasn't this time.

I've more clarity too.

I'm trying hard not to be placebo influenced as well, but I have to say, so far it's been solid.

I've stuck with 30mins on left pfc. Can you link us to the research at all please Ata?

[ATA]

unfortunetly i dount remenber in witch publication i read this

not use more than 30 min

here is some article about timing stimulation ( i dount read it yet)
http://jn.physiology...103/4/1735.full

[Godof Smallthings]

Seems strange that you both get such powerful results and I experience very little, but I guess there are many variables to consider.

[e8.root]

I use from 2 to 7mA current without any serious device. It's just some cable with paper clips mounted on one end to be able to easily attach it to aluminum foil that is inside paper towels.

Right now I don't have any precise means of regulation (will add potentiometer maybe next week) so it's kinda dependent only on electrode wetness and placement and it steadily decreased during stimulation. I can press electrodes against my head and it will increase current up to 7mA range and is immediately felt with similar change tDCS is giving going from no tDCS at all. Stimulation sessions can be longer than an hour but after such time there is not much current. I usually end with current <1mA

As you can see I don't follow any safety procedures as I know better what's good for me. I strongly advice against doing tDCS my way as it may potentially fry your brain like I will probably end up after some more experimentation

I don't really know if it's making me smarter or not and I really don't care about such silly things. What I care is neuroplasticity, ability to change my mental states with patterns generated by my own mind. In the past I could shape myself with techniques I invented and it gave me wonderful experiences and permanent sensory changes with color-synesthesia at the core of those changes. Later I lost my way and lost almost all of it, gained depression and inner pain that is making everything unbearable. tDCS kinda make me able to reverse those changes and meditation sessions are much more meaningful after I started doing it. By itself it made me saw world a little more like I was able in the past, with higher mental definition.

there might be more things than tDCS contributing to this changes I lately get. One of it is borax supplementation that is supposed to decalcify my pinneal gland that I believe contribute for meditation abilities greatly. Anyway, I feel like tDCS is good for me and I will continue doing regularly it until I feel like it's fulfilled its purpose completely and even then doing it from time to time won't hurt I guess

@Godof Smallthings
there are two possibilities, either you don't need it at all or you need more of it until you feel change...

Edited by e8.root, 11 May 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[sant2060]

I don't really know if it's making me smarter or not and I really don't care about such silly things. What I care is neuroplasticity, ability to change my mental states with patterns generated by my own mind. In the past I could shape myself with techniques I invented and it gave me wonderful experiences and permanent sensory changes with color-synesthesia at the core of those changes. Later I lost my way and lost almost all of it, gained depression and inner pain that is making everything unbearable.

Depression you are experiencing could be a relatively known phenomena on a spiritual path, reffered to as "dark night of the soul".
It happens accross whole set of different spiritual practices that involve meditation (name itself came from a poem written by John of the cross), but it seems that some buddhist traditions have the most precise mapped path of what happens before, during and after.

Glad that tdcs is helping, but you might like to check experiences of other people that stumbled uppon it. Dan Ingrams Mastering core teachings of Buddha is freely downloadable, and talks about phenomena without usual dogmatic baggage.

[formergenius]

ATA: I presume their set-up is anodal stimulation of F3 and cathodal of F4?
Godofallsamllthings: Yes there are many variables. Also I suppose it depends on what state of mind you are in when you stimulate. For someone with an underactive PFC the effects could be far greater than for someone with a healthy PFC.
e8.root: I can somehow find myself in that. Good going for you!
sant2060: I own that book! Didn't know it was up for free downloads. Oh well, I'm giving it away as a birthday present to my brother. Haven't been able to read a single page sadly, so good to know I can download it
soulfireimage: I don't think shaving is necessary, I just did it for ease of use.

Regarding yesterday's session: I used a resistor that gave me a (spongeless set-up) 1000uA output. With sponges attached I had an output of 450 uA this time. I wonder how it is able to fluctuate like that. Nonetheless I thought I might as well just try this low setting, and the effects were very nice.
I am still wondering whether I should either increase cathode size, or decrease anode size. Both are now 7x5=35cm². I rather not burn my skin if I don't have to.
Honestly I don't know the first thing about electronics, but I do find it strange only the cathode burned and not the anode, while they were both of equal size.
Perhaps conductivity/salinity? I consider ordering the Amrex electrodes, polyimide is extremly expensive.

The effects didn't last very long to be honest, but I did sleep better than I have in a long time. So I guess the insomniatic effects are not universal. I noticed if I tapped the cathode with the crocodile clip I could create disco-phosphenes. This morning I feel the typical strange mood I've been having for the past year, accompanied by it's brainfog.
I consider doing another session today, but I rather get the burning cathode thing sorted out first.

As for positioning, I found an entire guide with step by step instructions. I apparantly did not measure my "true" Cz point, and so my DLPFC point could be slightly off.
Honestly considering whether to pay for a qEEG and get the exact locations mapped out. Perhaps I'll just drop the entire project for now, and wait untill my professional tDCS session. Or at least untill I get the CRD.

Be safe people

[soulfiremage]

Try the site I posted earlier. They do accessory packs of electrodes. Reusable rubber inside sponge. Very good quality.

[ATA]

shaving is not necessary but help is good use alcohol pads to clen skin oils in skin have low conductivity if use HD elctrode is also good use slight abrasion (nuprep or tooth paste)

e8.root: not very safe setup it probaply not do any horam top the brain but may cause skin lesion and burns aluminimum aslo not goot choice the fastly code and is there a risk of ion transport to minimalize use thisker paper/coton/sponge to buffer ions.


Cathode burn more than anode its because direction of current

size thisd is more advance thing cathode may be larger (almouset whole right side of forehead)
anode may be small but for this you need constant current soure to get exact current desity and avoid burns.

site of electrode in my old setup http://brmlab.cz/_me.../tdcs.jpg?w=800

beter is use HD-TDCS but is more advancaded techniqe needet more experinece

[formergenius]

Looks very good, I suppose you mean the triple pack (different sizes)?
I just can't seem to find delivery time on the website. Other than that sounds like a good option.

ATA: Thanks! I'll remember that. Alcohol, that's what I thought! I had put some oil on my head after shaving it, perhaps that is partly the reason for fluctuation. Change shape cathode, change size anode, make sure to have constant current.. It's on my list.
So. What defines constant current? When I test my circuit, I have a constant reading... Hmm well I'll have the CRD's soon, this should definitely provide constant current. I better take this thing slow rather than rush into it and damage myself.

edit: Just did some Dual-2-back's... My score has gone up with 25% compared with 2 days ago. I don't feel like I'm focussing any better, but my working memory feel quicker and more accurate.

Edited by formergenius, 11 May 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

I am still wondering whether I should either increase cathode size, or decrease anode size. Both are now 7x5=35cm². I rather not burn my skin if I don't have to.
Honestly I don't know the first thing about electronics, but I do find it strange only the cathode burned and not the anode, while they were both of equal size.
Perhaps conductivity/salinity? I consider ordering the Amrex electrodes, polyimide is extremly expensive.

In my experience, high salinity tends to increase the conductivity, but also tends to increase burning sensations.

If you go with the Amrex electrodes, again, from experience: make sure you remove the sponges from the rubber pockets after each use, and rinse them from saline. That way you'll be able to avoid corrosion of the conductive metal mesh inside the rubber pockets, as well as corrosion stains on the sponges.

If I understand ATA correctly, he is skeptical of the AMREX electrodes?

As for working memory, for what it's worth, I am currently at dual 7 back in brain workshop, and gradually closing in on 8. The assessments on the Cognifit website lists my working memory capacity as being between 755 and 800 (800 is max).

My forward and backward digit span are at 10 on normal days (with one outlier result at 13 two months ago, but that was probably mostly luck, it has not been repeatable so far).

But I should say, I was already at dual 6 back before trying any tDCS, so I am not sure how much tDCS has actually helped. It is quite possible that I have reached near 'max capacity' for my working memory already, and this is why tDCS seems less effective, whereas for somebody who has not done much n-backing, applied tDCS would provide a much more rapid progress rate. At least this seems to be supported by the studies (=reduced learning time for tasks related to the brain area stimulated by the anode).

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 11 May 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[ATA]

AMREX is good but thing is time move forward to new techniqes witch allow beter targeting and less side effects

i not tried AMREX personaly but from pictures seems is to firm and not easi blend aroud the head
aslo size is to big current from 35cm2 electrodes is in half of the brain whre may cause unwanted effects

[ATA]

HD-TDCS headset prototype (for Motor cortex stimulation) No design only minimum to make it work.

[soulfiremage]

I am drunk, so forgive my iPad rambling, but has anyone tried IQ scores since electrifying their noodles?

I did three sessions today btw. Slight variations on location of left pfc, temporal etc.

Weird, drunk, positive, eloquent, analytical and seeing structures in my head.

[formergenius]

I just finished another session with a different montage.
I replaced the anode with a 5x5=25cm² electrode, and the cathode remained 7x5=35cm².
With uA the same (1000), but 700 uA output when connected to my head. So either 1000/25=40uA/cm², or 700/25=28uA/cm², don't really understand how to calculate the stuff.
Either way it wasn't higher than 80uA/cm², so safe enough. No burn marks this time, which is nice. However the effects aren't nearly as profound as yesterday. Allthough yesterday it took me a good hour post-stimulation before noticing those effects, so who knows. Either a) yesterday was the strongest placebo ever, b) changing current density did something, or c) seeing as the size of the electrode shrunk, but I still took the same markerpoint from yesterday as a centering point for electrode positioning, the electrode didn't cover the area responsible for those effects which I had yesterday. We'll see, I do feel somewhat spaced out, but that's perhaps from the straps to my head which were ridiculously tight. I must find a way to change this, as it is very uncomfortable; as if my skull is imploding with an ever so slight force.
Another thing I noticed is the absence of phosphenes... strange seeing as yester I had a 500 uA reading once connected. Must be a current density/location/whatever thing.
This stuff really isn't an exact science... Can't wait to just have the Foc.us and be done with it. But till then there's not much harm in experimenting and feeling like doctor Frankenstein.

I must say there's no clarity present like yesterday, but there is a lowering of inner chatter, however slightly it may be.
Tomorrow I'll have my last session for the time being, seeing as there's some neuropsychologist who is going to test my brain (without an qEEG... strange? wonder how they would do that). I was requested to discontinue all medicative and other brainactivity-altering experiments, otherwise the test may be inaccurate.

Cheers.

Edit: FWIW I used alcohol to clean my skin, got some longer wires, and used less salt in my solution.

Edited by formergenius, 11 May 2013 - 07:22 PM.