47 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

The Schisandra Chinensis berry is used as a tonic and adaptogen. One of the active compounds is Schizandrol A, which has been rumored to be great for focus. A study confirmed it increased dopamine in the CNS (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1678991). That study also concluded that there were no direct elevations of seratonin and norepinphrine as well as no direct agonistic activity at the D1, D2, Serotonin, Alpha1, and Alpha2 receptors. I found this to be extremely strange...perhaps Schizandrol A is a precursor or a catalist of some sort.

Has anyone any experience or further knowledge of the CNS effects of Schizandrol A?

[SATANICAT]

Schizandra and rhodiola are the ONLY supplements that give me a very noticeable improvement in focus. Schizandra specifically gives me more energy throughout the day as well as improving my reading speed. Its mechanisms are unknown to me, but I don't feel comfortable without this supplement these days haha.

[Nooby]

It improves my memory. It is an AChEI from what I have read. Many AChEI's seem to have postive effects on sexual function as well (aswagandha, ecklonia cava are just some other examples).

I didn't notice an effect for my CFS though and that's the reason why I bought it.

Edited by Nooby, 03 July 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Sounds like we discovered a cool little nootropic... increases focus and energy in some, sex drive and memory in others. I found it on a "popular auction site" for pretty cheap. I'm guessing that's your source, SATANICAT and nooby?

[Thorsten3]

Sounds like we discovered a cool little nootropic... increases focus and energy in some, sex drive and memory in others. I found it on a "popular auction site" for pretty cheap. I'm guessing that's your source, SATANICAT and nooby?

I buy them as dried berries and eat them (about 3g per day). When I take herbs I try to minimize the amount they have been processed. I find that they're really sweet, sour and spicy (very tasty). Schizandra works on all meridians within the body and is superior to rhodiola in my opinion.

Edited by HyperHydrosis, 04 July 2011 - 12:47 PM.

[IanA87]

Where are you purchasing them?

[thedevinroy]

SATANICAT, nooby, HyperHydrosis...


Where have you bought it from?

[Nooby]

I'm based in the UK and buy from a little company called indigo herbs. Well, they might be little but they stock pretty much everything. I can buy cacao in powder, nibs or bean format. Schizandra can likewise be bought in powder or berry format. They sell a wide variety of herbs.

[thedevinroy]

I'm based in the UK and buy from a little company called indigo herbs. Well, they might be little but they stock pretty much everything. I can buy cacao in powder, nibs or bean format. Schizandra can likewise be bought in powder or berry format. They sell a wide variety of herbs.

They have quite an herbal powder section... even sida cordifolia. I bought those seeds such a long time ago and never could get them to grow. I don't see an pure Schizandrol A powder, just the regular berry powder.

[dupez]

pretty sure i read this on the ingredient list of a preworkout supplement i was considering. i bet its great.

[Raptor87]

http://hubpages.com/...tive-Supplement

Its very popular in my country for the moment!

[thedevinroy]

I noticed that my supplier for DMAA also carries Schizandrol A. Both were advertised as being ingredients in Jack3D. Looking the ingredient up, I found a study that says that it increases dopamine levels, completely selectively. I thought that was interesting. I'm not really interested in the product, because it has arganine and caffeine, which I'd not want to take every day for focus.

[SATANICAT]

I forgot to mention that I just take the plain schizandra berries from Nature's Made (I've also used Swanson brand which was equally as effective) and I use Swanson brand Rhodiola extract.

Sorry it took so long for the reply.

[thedevinroy]

Just an update. Ordered 2 grams of Schizandrol A from the "popular auction site" (byobss). Should be arriving next week.

The rats in the study I quoted were taking over 10x the suggested human starting dose (alometric scaling at 0.75 exponent and 0.25kg rat yields over 800mg). Reading up on literature for human doses, I found that it takes 500mg to be effective per dose, though they recommend starting at 50mg. Weird... overcautious, I guess.

So I get a days worth of Schizandrol A for $6.99 or whatever... thought it was more potent than that.

[manic_racetam]

Just an update. Ordered 2 grams of Schizandrol A from the "popular auction site" (byobss). Should be arriving next week.

The rats in the study I quoted were taking over 10x the suggested human starting dose (alometric scaling at 0.75 exponent and 0.25kg rat yields over 800mg). Reading up on literature for human doses, I found that it takes 500mg to be effective per dose, though they recommend starting at 50mg. Weird... overcautious, I guess.

So I get a days worth of Schizandrol A for $6.99 or whatever... thought it was more potent than that.

Let us know how it's effects are. Sounds interesting, hopefully it's effective at lower dosages than 500mgs. $6.99 a day is really steep. Cheaper to smoke cigarettes.

[sam7777]

Word to the wise on this stuff.

Schizandra is more potent than rhodiola, or piracetams, or depreynl, or anything. period.

It trounces upon huperzine. Schizandra, caffeine, and fish pills and you are pretty much good to go. If you mix schizandra with something like rhodiola, especially if sensitive to rhodiola or taking it the first time, or something more pharmaceutical like depreynl or adderall, gelantamine, or anything dopimnergic, you may induce a manic state. It is not a bad manic state, and could be likened to the mental effects of LSD, (not that I would know, I am just speculating).

Schizandra may work at odd times of the days, and it may make you sleepy at times. It can wear you down. It will cause severe insomnia. It worked for me mainly later in the evening or night, at first. In the day it would make me sick, agressive, panic prone. Eventually I developed a tolerance to the stuff.

My health had been going to pot for the last 12 years, and this stuff seemed along with rhodiola like a god send, however, my health is now REALLY bad, and I am wondering if it was the schizandra that put the straw on the camel's back so to speak. So just be careful and do not overdo it.

[thedevinroy]

Word to the wise on this stuff.

Schizandra is more potent than rhodiola, or piracetams, or depreynl, or anything. period.

It trounces upon huperzine. Schizandra, caffeine, and fish pills and you are pretty much good to go. If you mix schizandra with something like rhodiola, especially if sensitive to rhodiola or taking it the first time, or something more pharmaceutical like depreynl or adderall, gelantamine, or anything dopimnergic, you may induce a manic state. It is not a bad manic state, and could be likened to the mental effects of LSD, (not that I would know, I am just speculating).

Schizandra may work at odd times of the days, and it may make you sleepy at times. It can wear you down. It will cause severe insomnia. It worked for me mainly later in the evening or night, at first. In the day it would make me sick, agressive, panic prone. Eventually I developed a tolerance to the stuff.

My health had been going to pot for the last 12 years, and this stuff seemed along with rhodiola like a god send, however, my health is now REALLY bad, and I am wondering if it was the schizandra that put the straw on the camel's back so to speak. So just be careful and do not overdo it.

Thank you for the warning. I suspect this of many stimulating herbs, when not kept in balance.

I don't believe Schizandrol A has any cholinergic effects. I believe it is the other compounds (and there are a LOT of other compounds) in Schizandra berries that have the cholinergic effects. Schizandrol B and Gomisin A both inhibit AcetylCholineEsterase, for example.

[Thorsten3]

Word to the wise on this stuff.

Schizandra is more potent than rhodiola, or piracetams, or depreynl, or anything. period.

It trounces upon huperzine. Schizandra, caffeine, and fish pills and you are pretty much good to go. If you mix schizandra with something like rhodiola, especially if sensitive to rhodiola or taking it the first time, or something more pharmaceutical like depreynl or adderall, gelantamine, or anything dopimnergic, you may induce a manic state. It is not a bad manic state, and could be likened to the mental effects of LSD, (not that I would know, I am just speculating).

Schizandra may work at odd times of the days, and it may make you sleepy at times. It can wear you down. It will cause severe insomnia. It worked for me mainly later in the evening or night, at first. In the day it would make me sick, agressive, panic prone. Eventually I developed a tolerance to the stuff.

My health had been going to pot for the last 12 years, and this stuff seemed along with rhodiola like a god send, however, my health is now REALLY bad, and I am wondering if it was the schizandra that put the straw on the camel's back so to speak. So just be careful and do not overdo it.

Thanks for sharing your experience but a lot of what you mention isn't typically what's associated with using Schizandra.

Perhaps your declining state of health wasn't helped by your self medicating? These Chinese herbs shouldn't really be messed around with without guidence but generally they are pretty harmless and should in most cases be life enhancing (depending on your source/batch/issues).

Shizandra is supposed to enhance sleep and it did for me even after chronic use. I never noticed anything fatiguing about it or particularly energy enhancing but then I don't take the concentrated Schizandrol A and I also eat properly and look after myself so I don't at this moment suffer with much CFS/inflammation/depression.

Schizandra, being the whole fruit is going to have other nutrients in it too. I actually found it worked beautifully with rhodiola.

Schizandra is a AchEI and I notice improved memory anecdotally which I always tend to do with AchEIs. I don't notice it being pro-depressive in any way which I normally find with AchEIs.

Schizandra is best taken chronically and will enhance sleep, libido (to some extent), wellbeing/mood and cognitition (to some extent). All in all it just feels brain healthy and if you can handle Rhodiola with it, awesome.

Edited by Thorsten2, 04 October 2011 - 08:06 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Got my shipment of Schizandrol A. Experimented with different doses. At 50mg, I felt a slight boost... comparable to a few gulps of hot coffee. This lasted all of 20 minutes. At 100mg, I got a similar effect lasting 40 minutes. Tonight I tried 300mg. The same boost was apparent but also was a motivational boost and increased sex drive. After a hot shower, I had a bite to eat, though not all that hungry.

The effects of the compound were hidden by my relaxation techniques or worn off, but I wasn't sure. So with my current ADHD alternative treatment medicinal dose (25mg of Nortriptyline), I took 30mg of Picamilon, 20mg of Huperzine A 1% (200mcg of active ingredient), and an additional 100mg of Schizandrol A. The Picamilon and Huperzine are mixed. I use it as a pain killer and general nootropic.

I waited for it to kick in, and I watched a dozen different Sum 41 and Bloodhound Gang music videos. Good inspiration for my future music videos. After watching my 12th video, I decided one more, and I move on to something more productive... this post. I am sitting here typing, and I feel the need to just keep moving. My muscles are a little tense, and I am really feeling something now... definitely a combination of things, but I've had that combo before without the Schizandrol A, and this time, I definitely feel more of an Adderall-type effect.

Restless. Need to keep moving. Don't care about little mistakes, but am quite accurate with my thoughts and movements.

Looks like 300mg is all I need. That extra 100mg afterwards was a little overkill. Blood pressure and pulse are a little high, but not of concern. Maybe 130 over 85. Heart rate is 84bpm. A little on the high side, but overall okay. Effects are beginning to come down now. This may be because I am about to go to sleep in a few minutes, not necessarily a crash.

I'll keep yall posted.

[computeTHIS]

This is very interesting to me as well. How long does the 300mg of Schizandrol A seem to last?

I found Huperzine A at 200 mcg to be effective for roughly 2 hours & 15 minutes. Do you think another 200 mcg of Huperzine A can be taken right after the first dose seems to diminish? Sometimes I have pressing tasks which require sustained focus for roughly 4-5 hours. The "crash effect" of Huperzine A makes it unusable for these sustained tasks, otherwise the effect of Huperzine A would be ideal.

[thedevinroy]

Took another 300mg this morning. Seemed an ineffective part of my morning regime past 45min of administration. This ineffectiveness could be a small caffeine withdrawal, as I have had coffee energy drinks in the past two days and not today. Will re-administer 300mg later today.

Edited by devinthayer, 10 October 2011 - 05:36 PM.

[thedevinroy]

This is very interesting to me as well. How long does the 300mg of Schizandrol A seem to last?

Hard to say. Have to do more experimentations. It took 45min to kick in last night fully, though I felt a little lift within minutes.

I found Huperzine A at 200 mcg to be effective for roughly 2 hours & 15 minutes. Do you think another 200 mcg of Huperzine A can be taken right after the first dose seems to diminish? Sometimes I have pressing tasks which require sustained focus for roughly 4-5 hours. The "crash effect" of Huperzine A makes it unusable for these sustained tasks, otherwise the effect of Huperzine A would be ideal.

Huperzine A doesn't do much for my focus and has a rather negative effect on mood. I take it because it makes my tooth hurt less as well as improves my memory recall speed. The effects seem to heighten around 1 hour after administration and gradually die down to nothing within 4-5 hours. I suffer no crash from it, nor do I experience side effects apart from mood at higher doses or frequency of use.

Mood isn't a problem. I can just take more choline, drink coffee, or take a drop of methylene blue.

[thedevinroy]

Took 300mg yesterday when I got home. Didn't notice anything.

Took 500mg this morning. Slight rise in blood pressure, slight stimulating effect. Nothing too crazy. Nothing that effective. Parents noticed I was quieter, so that may be an effect against my ADHD. It felt similar to Concerta, but only about 1/3 as strong. It wore off within a few hours.

Will experiment with 750mg, the human equivalent dose that rats were given in this study. (using allometric scaling 0.15kg rat, 70kg human, 0.75 exponent, 50mg/kg for rat dose = 7.5mg) I suspect a modafinil-type effect.

[thedevinroy]

Ran out, so I only took 600mg. I feel slightly more alert with elevated blood pressure. My tooth ache is worse, so that's generally a dopaminergic effect. Haha, that's like saying my boobs can predict the weather if it's raining. (Mean Girls reference... for those of you who didn't watch the movies when Lindsay Lohan was still innocent). Overall... I give it a... ... ... thumbs down. Maybe it increases strength or vitality or agility, but it doesn't do a thing for my focus.

Sulbutiamine here I come... or maybe I can find a concentrated extract of a whole herb like Mu Gua or Sida Cordifolia.

Edited by devinthayer, 12 October 2011 - 12:11 AM.

[manic_racetam]

Ran out, so I only took 600mg. I feel slightly more alert with elevated blood pressure. My tooth ache is worse, so that's generally a dopaminergic effect. Haha, that's like saying my boobs can predict the weather if it's raining. (Mean Girls reference... for those of you who didn't watch the movies when Lindsay Lohan was still innocent). Overall... I give it a... ... ... thumbs down. Maybe it increases strength or vitality or agility, but it doesn't do a thing for my focus.

Sulbutiamine here I come... or maybe I can find a concentrated extract of a whole herb like Mu Gua or Sida Cordifolia.

Bummer... this stuff sounded so promising. I'm seriously considering going back to the doc for methylphenidate.

[thedevinroy]

Bummer... this stuff sounded so promising. I'm seriously considering going back to the doc for methylphenidate.

Know how ya feel man. Luckily I find a combo of certain teas to get a stimulating effect... I just was looking for that special kick for ADHD. Oh well. Also check out my newest Catuaba thread. Seems like a possible winner. I've already started the Mu Gua thread ages ago, but no takers on experimentation. Sulbutiamine I should really dig into, but I haven't attacked that one myself yet.

[unregistered_user]

I too would like to try Sulbutiamine but am concerned with the rapid onset of tolerance. I know health_nutty is trying it with olive oil at breakfast so I am waiting to see what his outcome is before I spring for some.

[computeTHIS]

Hey Devin, how would you rate this against other dopaminergics (not for ADHD specifically, just as a dopaminergic)? Is there any comparison with Bacopa? Thanks.

[thedevinroy]

Hey Devin, how would you rate this against other dopaminergics (not for ADHD specifically, just as a dopaminergic)? Is there any comparison with Bacopa? Thanks.

Schizandrol A was much too unpredictable to accurately compare its exact effects to anything standard. There could be enzymes related to its metabolism that are key factors as well as transport for absorption that may be key.

I believe Schizandrin is a synonym for Schizandrol A. This version of the word has more than 5 studies on pubmed... this search reveals 83 studies. Apparently, it is metabolized by CYP3A. It's also a "ginseng"-like nootropic that strengthens neurons.

It was pretty short lived in my opinion. If I had to compare it to something, I'd say during it's peak at around 45 minutes, it was sort of like a light and highly pumped up Adderall/Ritalin/Modafinil effect ranging from a few minutes to a couple hours. Bacopa I never was able to see an effect through its serotonergic effects, so I consider the two in complete contrast.

Bacopa kind of knocked me out, but it made my sister wired. I think she suffers from lowered serotonin levels in her blood stream. She gets migraines and has trouble falling asleep at night. For me, it just made my melatonin levels go nutty, but for her, she was probably in need of that plasma serotonin (she might have a pre-synaptic serotonin imbalance) which would cause her plasma dopamine and norepinephrine levels to rise from competitive MAO-A inhibition.

My particular type of ADHD might have something to do with it as well... there is a possibility that I may have higher levels of NET or DAT which would cause competitive MAO-A inhibition, leading to naturally increased plasma serotonin levels. Basically, the two of us have opposite effects at the same 600mg (20% bacopasides) dose. So I'd say it all depends your chemistry.

Edited by devinthayer, 17 October 2011 - 02:17 PM.

[computeTHIS]

Ah, thanks!