143 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

 

why doesn't someone do experiments that try to move SOD, catalase, glutathione, and other antioxidants *into the mitochondria*

 

 

Sure, people have been doing that to little furry critters ever since Harman's days.  Sometimes it lives longer, or more likely some biomarker changes, and then they get to publish a paper.  You can easily find them by Googling "mitochodria targeted... <your favorite antioxidant>".  

 

 

This site should have a section that lists all major theories of aging, and then categorizes the important studies by actual agents tested within that theory.

 

 

This was exactly what I thought some time ago. I made a topic in the theories of aging section exactly for that.

 

http://www.longecity...s-of-the-aging/

 

Unfortunately, it went death. The same way as my new stem cells for people thread will die soon.
 

We may revive it if you like. See the theories, that are listed, try to categorize important studies about them...

[sensei]

 

 

means that we could 

 

1. cause the genesis of new young cells -- cells free of AGE's lipofuscin etc.

3. cause the death of cells that are approaching senescence, are crosslinked with AGEs, full of lipofuscin etc.

 

 

1. Nope. You will cause the genesis of old cells. You don't even know how mitosis works. How can you propose a therapy for aging?

 

3. AGEs affect the extracellular matrix, not the cells themselves.

 

 

Cellular genesis from stem cells.

 

AGEs affect the cells even though it occurs in the matrix. They cause increased ROS.

[Walter Derzko]

Aging Gracefully without Chronic Human Diseases by Walter Derzko v9 ...... For all of us ...the cohort of aging baby boomers...–


Time Magazine (Feb 2015) and National Geographic both recently ran cover stories with a baby on the cover. The tagline reads: This baby could live to be 142 years old. So the question that immediately comes to mind is: Is this possible and can everyone age gracefully without chronic human diseases? And can we do it with today’s technology and medical knowledge?

To explore this question, we first need to compare the mortality in 1900 versus today. In 1900, half of the deaths in the USA were caused by pneumonia, influenza, tuberculosis, gastrointestinal infections. These diseases were largely cured with antibiotics and antivirals after world war two. Cancer, diabetes, coronary heart disease, and Alzheimer’s were present but not near the rates we see today. Now, the top causes of death today, according to US statistics are heart disease, lung cancer, lung disease (asthma) , stroke, Alzheimer’s, diabetes and hypertension. An interesting question to ask would be: Do all these new, twenty first century diseases all have something in common, just like the top causes of death in 1900 where from bacterial or viral sources? Is there a common cause ? A review of the medical literature shows two primary causes. In turns out that most chronic human diseases are 1) triggered by excess free radicals or oxidative stress and 2) result from a lack of essential minerals and trace minerals and cofactors in our diets.

Oxidative Stress
Free radicals or oxidative stress is the result of our cells metabolizing or breathing oxygen. Free radical are the “waste” products of life, and they are very destructive to cell membranes, proteins and DNA. On the one hand, oxygen is essential to all organisms because it is a final electron acceptor in mitochondria, a cell’s “energy factory”. On the other hand, oxygen is harmful because it can continuously generate reactive oxygen species (ROS), which are believed to be the factors causing ageing of an organism. Our body has a natural protective system-antioxidant enzymes that neutralize excess free radicals or reactive oxygen species (ROS). If this delicate balance is disrupted, this then leads to an inflammation response in the body and eventually, chronic diseases could ensue. Excess free radicals are caused by many internal or external factors including: stress, alcohol, pesticides, toxins, contaminates, air and water pollution, inadequate intake of vegetables and fruits (see below) , inadequate or excessive exercise and physical activity, fried foods and fast foods, processed foods, medications, physical injuries, post-operative healing, cytokines (inflammation response), UV light, radiation and chemotherapy. Seniors going into nursing homes experience a jump in free radicals or oxidative stress.

As we age, our natural antioxidant defence systems decline and we are told to supplement with natural botanical antioxidants, such as blueberries , green tea or cinnamon or antioxidant supplements such as Vitamin E or coenzyme Q10. In this connection, various antioxidants including tea catechins, theaflavins, apple polyphenols, black rice anthocyanins, and blueberry polyphenols have been shown to be capable of extending the lifespan of fruit flies. But then we run into the “antioxidant paradox” in humans. Many of these food antioxidants work great as antioxidants in a test tube in the lab, but in human clinical trials, the beneficial effects are either low, inconclusive or negative. This is because saliva and gut bacteria metabolise or break down many these botanical antioxidants, before they have a chance to act beneficially.

Ukrainian scientists in Kharkiv discovered the world’s highest antioxidant called Carbon 60 hydrated fullerenes, which is stable and inert and not metabolised by bacteria. Carbon 60, a natural product, was discovered in 1985 and a Nobel prize in Chemistry was awarded for this discovery in 1996. Scientists and doctors were calling it the panacea or silver bullet in medicine, but because it’s not naturally water soluble, just like diamonds, charcoal or activated charcoal, this frustrated scientists. Many researches tried to dissolve it in water by attaching chemical tails to the Carbon 60 but it just became toxic. Ukrainian scientist in Kharkiv were the first to discover how to dissolve Carbon 60 in water in 1994, without it becoming toxic. After 20 years of preclinical, safety and clinical studies, Carbon 60 hydrated fullerenes were approved as a “dietary supplement” by the Ukrainian Ministry of Health and it has been on the Ukrainian market since 2010. We see no medical contraindications, and you would not expect any, since we only have pristine carbon, which is what all our cells are made of. There is also a US patent pending. Scientists are now claiming that most chronic human diseases are triggered by excess free radicals. Just do a search on PUBMED with the key words “oxidative stress” and your own disease and you will find a link. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed ). Reduce excess free radicals and reduce your disease symptoms. A study at the University of Paris in 2010 showed that rats fed a diet supplemented with Carbon 60 in olive oil, increased the lifespan of rats by 90% from an average of 25-30 months to over 55 months.

Essential minerals and trace minerals

The National Post ran a story on May 1, 2015- “Obese Canadians should be granted legal protection from discrimination, professor says.” The obesity debate is totally missing the point. Most Doctors are ignoring their own medical research. The cause of the 400% increase in obesity in last 3 decades in Canada and a corresponding sharp rise in most other chronic human diseases since the 1930’ is due to a chronic lack of essential minerals and trace minerals in our diet (plants, fruits and vegetables) that are needed as co-factors in the body for our biochemical pathways to work efficiently.

The soil minerals concentrations have been dropping worldwide for the last 100 years, so less and less minerals are absorbed in fruits, vegetables and other plants. This is due primarily to the fact that we no longer cook and heat our homes with wood and throw away the ashes (95% minerals) back into the garden to replenish the soil with the 60 essential and trace minerals that our bodies need. Fertilizer only has 3 minerals. Mechanization of farming has also contributed to the mineral decline. Even the nutritional supplements commonly found in most health food stores don't carry the full complement of 90 essential nutrients, which should include 60 essential minerals, 15 essential vitamins, 12 essential amino acids and 3 fatty acids that we need daily and the right doses of each and the correct easily absorbable mineral salts.

How do we know that we need 90 essential nutrients? Just talk to any veterinarian. Vets have cured over 600 chronic human diseases in farm animals and in zoo animals by supplementing their food with nutritional pellets. When was the last time you saw a cow with arthritis and a pig with Alzheimer’s? Vets have to cure an animal after the first time otherwise beef would cost over $500 a pound or eggs $50 a dozen. Why? Because animals don’t have health insurance. Doctors are quite content to treat your disease symptoms for the rest of your life, billing health insurance and not curing your disease after a few visits. Human clinical studies in the past 40 years have shown that most chronic human diseases are also caused by essential mineral deficiencies and can be controlled with the proper essential and trace minerals. Diabetes has been controlled with the right amount of chromium and vanadium and other essential cofactors. Arthritis is a lack of proper calcium absorption and cofactors such as Vitamin D and magnesium. Greying hair is a copper deficiency in the diet.

So can we live to be 100 or over without chronic human diseases? Yes by reducing excess oxidative stress or free radicals in our body and ensuring that we get the right daily balance of 90 essential nutrients including 60 minerals and trace minerals.
If you would like more information on the above or a copy of my presentation on Aging Gracefully without Chronic Human Diseases that I gave to seniors last week, send me an email wderzko@pathcom.com or call (416) 819-9667 or download it from this link http://bit.ly/1KzZvm8


Walter Derzko is the president of C60 Water North America, in Toronto and teaches at the MA program in Strategic Foresight and Innovation (SFI) at OCAD University, Toronto

[albedo]

So Walter, I assume your answer to the thread topic is YES (as per your last slide in the presentation) but could not find or overlooked the possible time frame.

 

For what it matters, while not using (yet?) C60 I scored not so bad (204 over the range 180-210) to an oxidation stress test using this system http://www.edel-for-life.com/ (they say best is 200). For essential and trace elements I run yearly test but not for all. In particular, I discovered an issue with RBC magnesium I am trying to correct and disentangle it from a possible counter effect of IP6 supplementation. I do not supplement with copper as it looks promoting cancer but check it in the blood test together with zinc.

[Walter Derzko]

Albedo, Copper is an essential trace mineral that is required to prevent your hair from going grey. You only need microgram quantities daily, but higher doses I suspect are carcinogenic. It's the dose that makes the poison.

Must be good soil in the Swiss Alps. What's the time frame you ask? you need water daily, air daily and essential and trace minerals daily. Thanks for the e-del for life reference, I'll check it out.

Btw

60 Essential Minerals(act as co-factors for enzymes and proteins)

Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus,  Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulfur, Cobalt, Copper, Aluminum, Arsenic, Barium, Beryllium, Boron, Bromine, Carbon, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, Cerium, Cesium, Chromium, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium,  Hydrogen, Lanthanum, Lithium, Lutetium, Molybdenum, Neodymium, Nickel, Niobium, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rubidium, Samarium, Scandium, Silica, Silver, Strontium, Tantalum, Terbium, Thulium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium

Edited by Walter Derzko, 02 May 2015 - 08:29 PM.

[Walter Derzko]

Copper and cancer

Thanks for the reference. It says: "Copper is a key player in cell growth. In order to proliferate, cells require energy, which they produce and store in the form of a molecule called ATP. Like all cells, tumor cells produce energy in two different ways: respiration, which requires oxygen, and glycolysis, which does not. Of the two, respiration is the more efficient way to make ATP. However it involves a number of enzymes, and one of the most important ones requires copper for its activity."

*** Importantly, the researchers do not think that copper causes cancer. Exposure of healthy mice to the same amount of copper via drinking water for up to two years did not result in an increased incidence of cancer.***

https://actu.epfl.ch...tumors-breathe/

Edited by Walter Derzko, 02 May 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Walter Derzko]

What does an Edel for Life unit cost?

[albedo]

Albedo, Copper is an essential trace mineral that is required to prevent your hair from going grey. You only need microgram quantities daily, but higher doses I suspect are carcinogenic. It's the dose that makes the poison.

Must be good soil in the Swiss Alps. What's the time frame you ask? you need water daily, air daily and essential and trace minerals daily. Thanks for the e-del for life reference, I'll check it out.

Btw

60 Essential Minerals(act as co-factors for enzymes and proteins)

Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus,  Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulfur, Cobalt, Copper, Aluminum, Arsenic, Barium, Beryllium, Boron, Bromine, Carbon, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, Cerium, Cesium, Chromium, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium,  Hydrogen, Lanthanum, Lithium, Lutetium, Molybdenum, Neodymium, Nickel, Niobium, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rubidium, Samarium, Scandium, Silica, Silver, Strontium, Tantalum, Terbium, Thulium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium

Yes, agree with you. And I must have sufficient copper despite, damn ... start to have some grey hair turning 60 now :-) I checked copper (and zinc) and was always normal.

 

Regarding the time frame the original poster asked if 20-30 years is a potential time frame for defeating aging; I was simply curious of your comment on that. My own take is also Yes to the question and the time frame might be roughly, to a factor 2x maybe, respected provided lot of money and resources are given to efforts such as SENS, Calico, Human Longevity etc ... the momentum is good!

 

Edited by albedo, 02 May 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[albedo]

What does an Edel for Life unit cost?

No idea, best would be to contact them directly. I do not own the instrument and happened just to have taken the test. The scientist who did the test told me I had an "ideal" oxidation profile.

 

[Jose_LER]

Albedo, Copper is an essential trace mineral that is required to prevent your hair from going grey. You only need microgram quantities daily, but higher doses I suspect are carcinogenic. It's the dose that makes the poison.

Must be good soil in the Swiss Alps. What's the time frame you ask? you need water daily, air daily and essential and trace minerals daily. Thanks for the e-del for life reference, I'll check it out.

Btw

60 Essential Minerals(act as co-factors for enzymes and proteins)

Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus,  Potassium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulfur, Cobalt, Copper, Aluminum, Arsenic, Barium, Beryllium, Boron, Bromine, Carbon, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, Cerium, Cesium, Chromium, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium,  Hydrogen, Lanthanum, Lithium, Lutetium, Molybdenum, Neodymium, Nickel, Niobium, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rubidium, Samarium, Scandium, Silica, Silver, Strontium, Tantalum, Terbium, Thulium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zirconium

There are more different minerals like Indium.

I read the table of contents of one book some years ago where it was explained a theory about aging and the depletion of minerals in the body.

There are some diseases that can be reversed if the proper amount of chemical components are given to the body. As you explain, there are a lot of different chemical compounds that I've never heard about and the body needs them too.

 

I've been thinking about that aging is also a disease and the main thing that changes is some internal oxidation process. The body is like a battery and the biological battery must be recharged in order to "tune" the oxidation processes. Health can be described mathematically. Aging is also a process that I'm sure that it can be described using mathematics and physics.

 

Remember that all the cells are constantly renewed. And what is the different between one kind of cell and another (the same type, young or aged)? The electrical components that have been present in the differentiation of that new cell. Electricity and oxidation are deeply related.

 

I would explain this concept more in detail, but I think with this explanation is enough.

Edited by Jose_LER, 07 May 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[Walter Derzko]

Some good points Joe LER
Here is my take on Aging and Longevity


Download my powerpoint slides from the academia.edu site and see my newspaper story below.

https://www.academia...ses_v4_UPDATED_

Walter Derzko
Toronto

Aging Gracefully without Chronic Human Diseases by Walter Derzko v9 ...... For all of us ...the cohort of aging baby boomers...
Time Magazine (Feb 2015) and National Geographic both recently ran cover stories with a baby on the cover. The tagline reads: This baby could live to be 142 years old. So the question that immediately comes to mind is: Is this possible and can everyone age gracefully without chronic human diseases? And can we do it with today’s technology and medical knowledge?
To explore this question, we first need to compare the mortality in 1900 versus today. In 1900, half of the deaths in the USA were caused by pneumonia, influenza, tuberculosis, gastrointestinal infections. These diseases were largely cured with antibiotics and antivirals after world war two. Cancer, diabetes, coronary heart disease, and Alzheimer’s were present but not near the rates we see today. Now, the top causes of death today, according to US statistics are heart disease, lung cancer, lung disease (asthma) , stroke, Alzheimer’s, diabetes and hypertension. An interesting question to ask would be: Do all these new, twenty first century diseases all have something in common, just like the top causes of death in 1900 where from bacterial or viral sources? Is there a common cause ? A review of the medical literature shows two primary causes. In turns out that most chronic human diseases are 1) triggered by excess free radicals or oxidative stress and 2) result from a lack of essential minerals and trace minerals and cofactors in our diets.

Oxidative Stress
Free radicals or oxidative stress is the result of our cells metabolizing or breathing oxygen. Free radical are the “waste” products of life, and they are very destructive to cell membranes, proteins and DNA. On the one hand, oxygen is essential to all organisms because it is a final electron acceptor in mitochondria, a cell’s “energy factory”. On the other hand, oxygen is harmful because it can continuously generate reactive oxygen species (ROS), which are believed to be the factors causing ageing of an organism. Our body has a natural protective system-antioxidant enzymes that neutralize excess free radicals or reactive oxygen species (ROS). If this delicate balance is disrupted, this then leads to an inflammation response in the body and eventually, chronic diseases could ensue. Excess free radicals are caused by many internal or external factors including: stress, alcohol, pesticides, toxins, contaminates, air and water pollution, inadequate intake of vegetables and fruits (see below) , inadequate or excessive exercise and physical activity, fried foods and fast foods, processed foods, medications, physical injuries, post-operative healing, cytokines (inflammation response), UV light, radiation and chemotherapy. Seniors going into nursing homes experience a jump in free radicals or oxidative stress.
As we age, our natural antioxidant defense systems decline and we are told to supplement with natural botanical antioxidants, such as blueberries , green tea or cinnamon or antioxidant supplements such as Vitamin E or coenzyme Q10. In this connection, various antioxidants including tea catechins, theaflavins, apple polyphenols, black rice anthocyanins, and blueberry polyphenols have been shown to be capable of extending the lifespan of fruit flies. But then we run into the “antioxidant paradox” in humans. Many of these food antioxidants work great as antioxidants in a test tube in the lab, but in human clinical trials, the beneficial effects are either low, inconclusive or negative. This is because saliva and gut bacteria metabolize or break down many these botanical antioxidants, before they have a chance to act beneficially.
Ukrainian scientists in Kharkiv discovered the world’s highest antioxidant called Carbon 60 hydrated fullerenes, which is stable and inert and not metabolized by bacteria. Carbon 60, a natural product, was discovered in 1985 and a Nobel prize in Chemistry was awarded for this discovery in 1996. Scientists and doctors were calling it the panacea or silver bullet in medicine, but because it’s not naturally water soluble, just like diamonds, charcoal or activated charcoal, this frustrated scientists. Many researches tried to dissolve it in water by attaching chemical tails to the Carbon 60 but it just became toxic. Ukrainian scientist in Kharkiv were the first to discover how to dissolve Carbon 60 in water in 1994, without it becoming toxic. After 20 years of preclinical, safety and clinical studies, Carbon 60 hydrated fullerenes were approved as a “dietary supplement” by the Ukrainian Ministry of Health and it has been on the Ukrainian market since 2010. We see no medical contraindications, and you would not expect any, since we only have pristine carbon, which is what all our cells are made of. There is also a US patent pending. Scientists are now claiming that most chronic human diseases are triggered by excess free radicals. Just do a search on PUBMED with the key words “oxidative stress” and your own disease and you will find a link. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed ). Reduce excess free radicals and reduce your disease symptoms. A study at the University of Paris in 2010 showed that rats fed a diet supplemented with Carbon 60 in olive oil, increased the lifespan of rats by 90% from an average of 25-30 months to over 55 months.

Essential minerals and trace minerals
The National Post in Canada ran a story on May 1, 2015- “Obese Canadians should be granted legal protection from discrimination, professor says.” The obesity debate is totally missing the point. Most Doctors are ignoring their own medical research. The cause of the 400% increase in obesity in last 3 decades in Canada and a corresponding sharp rise in most other chronic human diseases since the 1930’ is due to a chronic lack of essential minerals and trace minerals in our diet (plants, fruits and vegetables) that are needed as co-factors in the body for our biochemical pathways to work efficiently.

The soil minerals concentrations have been dropping worldwide for the last 100 years, so less and less minerals are absorbed in fruits, vegetables and other plants. This is due primarily to the fact that we no longer cook and heat our homes with wood and throw away the ashes (95% minerals) back into the garden to replenish the soil with the 60 essential and trace minerals that our bodies need. Fertilizer only has 3 minerals. Mechanization of farming has also contributed to the mineral decline. Even the nutritional supplements commonly found in most health food stores don't carry the full complement of 90 essential nutrients, which should include 60 essential minerals, 15 essential vitamins, 12 essential amino acids and 3 fatty acids that we need daily and the right doses of each and the correct easily absorbable mineral salts.
How do we know that we need 90 essential nutrients? Just talk to any veterinarian. Vets have cured over 600 chronic human diseases in farm animals and in zoo animals by supplementing their food with nutritional pellets. When was the last time you saw a cow with arthritis and a pig with Alzheimer’s? Vets have to cure an animal after the first time otherwise beef would cost over $500 a pound or eggs $50 a dozen. Why? Because animals don’t have health insurance. Doctors are quite content to treat your disease symptoms for the rest of your life, billing health insurance and not curing your disease after a few visits. Human clinical studies in the past 40 years have shown that most chronic human diseases are also caused by essential mineral deficiencies and can be controlled with the proper essential and trace minerals. Diabetes has been controlled with the right amount of chromium and vanadium and other essential cofactors. Arthritis is a lack of proper calcium absorption and cofactors such as Vitamin D and magnesium. Greying hair is a copper deficiency in the diet.
So can we live to be 100 or over without chronic human diseases? Yes by reducing excess oxidative stress or free radicals in our body and ensuring that we get the right daily balance of 90 essential nutrients including 60 minerals and trace minerals.
If you would like more information on the above or a copy of my presentation on Aging Gracefully without Chronic Human Diseases that I gave for a group of seniors last week, send me an email wderzko@pathcom.com or download it from this link http://bit.ly/1KzZvm8

Edited by Walter Derzko, 07 May 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Jose_LER]

Walter, you've been speaking about some very interesting concepts that I also agree with them. I'm reading your paper, but at the moment I've only read this post.

 

I will try to answer all the concepts that I've found interesting:

An interesting question to ask would be: Do all these new, twenty first century diseases all have something in common, just like the top causes of death in 1900 where from bacterial or viral sources?

 

Well, all diseases have something in common because they're an unbalanced condition of the body. The next question to ask is: What kind of imbalance condition is it and what are them internal characteristics?

I believe that health, disease, aging... are an oxidative conditions that occur in the body. If those conditions correspond to some mathematical descriptions we call them health. If they're unbalanced we call them disease. There are a lot of internal components that have to be used to describe that oxidation condition, for that reason there are different diseases. Each oxidative process has its own internal representation and its unique and different from all the others. To produce one specific oxidation process the body needs different elements (chemical and electrical components) to produce it. If the body lacks of one or more components, the oxidative process will be different than the perfect one. This different oxidative process is incomplete and imperfect. So the body works away the perfect oxidative condition and the body starts to work away from health. Depending what it lacks, there will be different classifications. Maybe bacterial or viral problems have something in common. Maybe all the cancers have something in common. The body can be grouped in a lot of different conditions and sub-conditions, so it must be something in common between each group.

 

 In turns out that most chronic human diseases are 1) triggered by excess free radicals or oxidative stress and 2) result from a lack of essential minerals and trace minerals and cofactors in our diets.

 

That is evident to see that minerals and free radicals have something opposite in its structure that make them "beneficial" or "harmful". It seems that minerals help to recharge the body while free radicals seem to discharge the body. Of course, this is a simplistic answer because there must be a lot of different factors to analyze in this charging or discharging process. Even I think that over-charging would be also a problem. You even say that depending the amount of copper, it can be beneficial or harmful to the body. The key is to supply the right amount of the right things at the right time.

 

Depending the internal characteristics of these "beneficial" or "harmful" components, they activate constructive or destructive processes in the DNA. Something like activating specific patterns in the DNA using a kind of piezoelectricity. Maybe some kind of light signal can activate DNA. Depending the structure of this light signal, it can activate destructive or constructive processes.

[Jose_LER]

@ Walter Derzko

Another interesting theories that I've been reading (apart of the lack of minerals and excess of free radicals) is the theory of parasites. Some authors claim that when there is a sick person, there are parasite inside his body and by eliminating the parasites, it can be possible to reduce or eliminate the disease. Also, another authors claim that there are present some pollutants in the body. You call them free radicals, but they call them pollutants. At the end, both pollutants and free radicals maybe would be the same thing.

 

So, I would strongly suggest to you to add the parasite and pollutant connection to your theory. You will have a more complete theory.

Edited by Jose_LER, 07 May 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[Rocket]

I think the odds of radical life & health span extension is probable within 20-30 years.  What I ask myself is, if there is a breakthrough discovery that is within the cost of the average person to extend their life into the 100s and remain healthy and vigorous and active and not confined to a nursing home, would the world governments allow it?  Does the current "crop" of humanity deserve "immortality" if we find it?  I think if something is found it will be suppressed.  Perhaps some things have already been found and suppressed.  When an organism ages it's because the cells age.  With all the cell bio and bio chem research over decades and decades, no one can say what aging is?  Scientists still shrug their shoulders and say it could be ROS, or it could be XYZ, but no one knows?  It's something you can watch visually progress under microscopy, a cell aging, and no one knows? There is still NO treatment of ANY kind for even some of the things that happen to our cells when they age?  Just diet, exercise, and vitamins. That's it!? 

Edited by Rocket, 21 October 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

In order to know how long it will take for something to be made, you have to know very well the start point and all of the steps you have to go through. Its like travelling with a car from point A to point B. You have to know wghere are you at the moment, how many steps you need to do, and how much time each step is needed. 

 

In these terms when the aging will be cured depends first from what exactly you think aging is? 

Then what exactly is the path for curing in. 

 

After that you will be eventually capabble of calculating how long the discovery of the treatment of the aging will take. 

 

 

 

 

If you ask me, I look at the constant rejuvenation (replacement of aged and damaged structures with new ones) as the main factor for treating the aging. 

 

This is why, when you ask me if the aging can be cured in the next 20-30 years, I instantly rename in my mind the question to: When all organs, tissues and cells will become possible to be made from stem cells, and when they will be able to be transplanted successfully in people. 

 

Currently (2015) we may say that all cells are being made successfully, all tissues either. What is left in order to be possible the artifitial (man made) rejuvenation of the human body are the organs, and the methodics to transplant neurons in our brains so, that they to integrate with the brain and refresh it (rejuvenate it). 

 

So, we know now where are we today, and where we have to go. How long is it to the entire organs made from stem cells? Well... it depends from us, including you. Do what you can in order entire transplantable organs to be made from stem cells, ot to implant successfully the stem cells made neurons, and it will become possible in your life time. Fail to do so and... well... die. 

[niner]

I think the odds of radical life & health span extension is probable within 20-30 years.  What I ask myself is, if there is a breakthrough discovery that is within the cost of the average person to extend their life into the 100s and remain healthy and vigorous and active and not confined to a nursing home, would the world governments allow it?  Does the current "crop" of humanity deserve "immortality" if we find it?  I think if something is found it will be suppressed.  Perhaps some things have already been found and suppressed.  When an organism ages it's because the cells age.  With all the cell bio and bio chem research over decades and decades, no one can say what aging is?  Scientists still shrug their shoulders and say it could be ROS, or it could be XYZ, but no one knows?  It's something you can watch visually progress under microscopy, a cell aging, and no one knows? There is still NO treatment of ANY kind for even some of the things that happen to our cells when they age?  Just diet, exercise, and vitamins. That's it!? 

 

 

Lots of questions, Rocket! 

 

Would governments allow it?  Yes, because it will save them a fortune on health care.  They may need to raise the retirement age though.

 

Does humanity deserve "immortality"?  Some do, some not so much... But it's always been thus.  People used to be quite a bit more rotten than they are today.

 

Some things have been found, but they aren't actively suppressed.  They are in effect suppressed because they don't fit into the current regulatory scheme (aging isn't a "disease"), and because the people who might work on them are not getting funded to do that.  Until relatively recently, trying to do anything about aging was considered "crazy" and career suicide.  These things are changing rapidly now.

 

Does no one know what aging is?  A lot of people know what it is, but they don't all agree with each other.  That's not terribly surprising, as aging is very complicated.  There is no "one cause".  It's a multi-factorial problem.

 

Is there NO treatment for even some of the things that happen to our cells when they age?  I wouldn't say that at all.  There are lots of things one can do, and lots more on the horizon.  These are the things we talk about here when we aren't talking about how awful some famous people look or the grotesque injustice of Pluto's demotion.
 

Edited by niner, 22 October 2015 - 02:18 AM.

[Florian Xavier]

Stop with philosophy, culture don't care.

[Never_Ending]

 

The question is also: how interesting is it to actually cure diseases when pharmaceutical companies make billions of money in order to NOT cure something.
Most of the time they're not interested in finding out what the cause of a disease is, they just wanna keep things under control by putting people on drugs for the rest of their lives. They're not all like that, but some of them really have to change their attitude.

They cure bacterial infections, and have for many years. This is profitable. If I got a particular cancer, I (my insurance) would pay a lot to eliminate that cancer. That's a "cure" for that particular instance of the disease. We've been doing this for some cancers for a long time, and are getting better at it. Any company that can cure a previously-incurable type of cancer is going to make a lot of money. That's a motivation, not a dis-motivation.

 

 

There's a good chance that pharmaceutical companies like to treat diseases in a "fragmented" fashion.  Although I don't have a citation for that I hope it makes sense when considering the incentive of maximizing profits.  Bacterial infections are things they can treat and cure many times on the same person similar to many other acute diseases. As for chronic diseases they want things that they can treat over and over but can hardly be permanently cured.(ie things that they can delay)

 

The best chance of them being more invested in Aging is if it were a medicine people have to buy and take daily/weekly/monthly. To continuously delay the aging process

(if that is the ideal method to treat it then we could very well be in luck!)

Meanwhile before that happens they would be content with treating all the branching out diseases linked to aging such as degenerative diseases, neurological diseases, cardiovascular etc.

Additionally a more private company could also independently arrive at the solution (not sure what that means for availability though)

[Rocket]

 

Meanwhile before that happens they would be content with treating all the branching out diseases linked to aging such as degenerative diseases, neurological diseases, cardiovascular etc.

Additionally a more private company could also independently arrive at the solution (not sure what that means for availability though)

 

 

Treating diseases like cardiovascular disease, and dementia, and so on and so forth, is akin to fixing the wiring and plumbing in a house that is burning down.  Its all doomed to fail, and at best will buy slightly more time before those diseases then progress.

 

If a private company finds a solution it will be banned in the US and the rich of the world will have to travel to South American or some European and Asian nations for treatment. Meanwhile the FDA will place peptides into the same category as steroids which is in the same category as cocaine and heroine.
 

Edited by Rocket, 07 January 2016 - 12:41 AM.

[pone11]

 

 

Meanwhile before that happens they would be content with treating all the branching out diseases linked to aging such as degenerative diseases, neurological diseases, cardiovascular etc.

Additionally a more private company could also independently arrive at the solution (not sure what that means for availability though)

 

 

Treating diseases like cardiovascular disease, and dementia, and so on and so forth, is akin to fixing the wiring and plumbing in a house that is burning down.  Its all doomed to fail, and at best will buy slightly more time before those diseases then progress.

 

If a private company finds a solution it will be banned in the US and the rich of the world will have to travel to South American or some European and Asian nations for treatment. Meanwhile the FDA will place peptides into the same category as steroids which is in the same category as cocaine and heroine.

 

Right, which is why I am so excited by Irina Conboy's research at Berkeley on Oxytocin.   Daily injections into mice turned aged muscle into young muscle.

 

Consider that:

 

* oxytocin is FDA approved

* oxytocin is dirt cheap and is commonly used in veterinary and human medicine

 

So we bypass the FDA hurdle, assuming human research shows the same positive effects as the mouse studies.

 

In spite of this, no one wants to fund human research with oxytocin.  Why?   The world is now controlled by pharmaceutical companies that want to fund proprietary drugs.   No one will invest money in generic drugs that are cheaply available.  No one seems to care about humanity and no one is willing to fund the research for humanitarian reasons.

 

Seems to me a very significant therapy is just sitting there waiting to be proven as safe and effective for aging and no one is doing squat about it.

Edited by pone11, 16 January 2016 - 06:45 AM.

[Antonio2014]

In spite of this, no one wants to fund human research with oxytocin.  Why?

 

I can't talk for other people, but I certainly wouldn't fund oxytocin research as a treatment for aging in humans. There are lots of ways of tampering with metabolism that extend lifespan in huge amounts in short-lived species like mice or worms and that don't do the same in long-lived species. For example, CR mymetics or CR itself doesn't appear to do much to primates' lifespan, and GHRKO (the current record holder in mice life extension) doesn't extend life in humans (Laron-type dwarfism).
 

Edited by Antonio2014, 16 January 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[Multivitz]

I don't think 'aging' exists. We are products of our environment. We coexist with parrasites and on this planet. To extend the material time one has here, one should harmonise one's body to it's environment. If it means supplementing with concentrated food stuffs, then thats great, in my eyes(because it works).
If the reader thinks philosophical style posts are pointless, then it's just reflecting their inability to gather the basic skills of comprehension. To separate the arts, then disrespect the ones that seem pointless to them, is like throwing the baby out with the bath water!
When the people are represented by their government, maybe we could embrace true health and tame this construct we call money. But until then, people get killed by letting others look after them, the blame game get played, our souls get a muted existence, the land and waters get poisoned, the want of the few gets priority of others needs, and men try to dance with freedom whilst blinding each other to lifes truths.
How likely is life extension? For some it's here, without any novel treatments. For others who endeavor a persuit into unnatural remedies, it is just around the corner.
That corner is very long, infinitely long by my reckoning. But that's just my sinecism showing. Maybe a machine that beams you, and a diet that is adiquate, that might work. Then we would get loads of ungrateful turds running around looking smug, breeding the psychopathical logic that has gotten society to this point. Drugs don't work for the maintenance of health, end of discussion.
We have passed the void, done the Galactic crossing and now we have to do a better job to contain the psychopaths than our ancestors did.
How could an immortal be demonstrated, you would have to wait a lifetime for the results lol.

[pone11]

 

In spite of this, no one wants to fund human research with oxytocin.  Why?

 

I can't talk for other people, but I certainly wouldn't fund oxytocin research as a treatment for aging in humans. There are lots of ways of tampering with metabolism that extend lifespan in huge amounts in short-lived species like mice or worms and that don't do the same in long-lived species. For example, CR mymetics or CR itself doesn't appear to do much to primates' lifespan, and GHRKO (the current record holder in mice life extension) doesn't extend life in humans (Laron-type dwarfism).
 

 

Your argument takes an invalid form of reasoning.  You are saying "I will not fund hypothesis A because there are examples of similar hypotheses that do not test as true."

 

Some substances test positive in simple organisms and fail in complex organisms.  It does not follow from this premise that all substances will similarly fail.

 

Aside from failing a logical form of reasoning, your point also fails to grasp the very important practical realities.   Oxytocin is nearly free, and oxytocin has an FDA approval.   Therefore a positive test result in humans would change the entire world, rapidly, with minimum cost and minimum interference of regulation.  You cannot say the same thing for other peptides / hormones like GDF-11, and you cannot say the same for broader blood products like plasma.

[Antonio2014]

Your argument takes an invalid form of reasoning.  You are saying "I will not fund hypothesis A because there are examples of similar hypotheses that do not test as true."

 

Some substances test positive in simple organisms and fail in complex organisms.  It does not follow from this premise that all substances will similarly fail.

 

That's not my point at all, it's that substances that mess with metabolism produce no life extension or very small life extension in long-lived species. That's the reason why sirtuins and the like extend life in e.g. flies but not in mammals. Short-lived species lifespan is more flexible than long-lived ones. They have to endure long famines (long for their lifespan) and thus have built-in mechanisms to alter lifespan in response to changing enviroment conditions. You have to do something different for long-lived species.

 

Aside from failing a logical form of reasoning, your point also fails to grasp the very important practical realities.   Oxytocin is nearly free, and oxytocin has an FDA approval.

 

And you talk about logic? Water is also cheap. Is it a cure for aging?

Edited by Antonio2014, 29 January 2016 - 10:01 PM.