54 replies to this topic

[manic_racetam]

The theory behind fluoride is that it reacts with calcium ions to form a substance even stronger than tooth enamel. That's why they don't put calcium in the toothpaste with the fluoride.... because it would react in the tube making the fluoride useless on your teeth.

I was anti-fluoride for a long time due to fears of it accumulating in the body (specifically bones and also I was paranoid about calcification of the pineal gland). Then I found out that green tea has fluoride and it started making sense to me why so many old Chinese people had all their teeth (85+ years old). The lack of sugar in their diet and the fluoride in their tea! That's my theory at least.

Well, the breaking point was actually when my teeth started... breaking. I started using a prescription strength fluoride toothpaste 1.1%. It's about 10 times stronger than what you buy in the drug store. The instructions for that specific brand was to expectorate and not rinse after use. This was in an attempt to maximize absorption I guess.

After a year of use I noticed some changes in my teeth. Since my teenage years I've had demineralization near my gum line from improper brushing as a kid. It shows up as a brown line near my gums on all my molars. After a year of using the super fluoride toothpaste without rinsing after brushing, I noticed a new white line forming above the brown decalcified line.

The brown line didn't disappear or change and it seems it was too late for the already demineralized tooth. But it seems that the tooth above the line... the tooth structure in the process of being eroded but which hadn't yet eroded completely... was able to be "remineralized" by the fluoride and saved from further destruction.

So I'm guessing that if there is already a "crevasse" that can be found using an explorer, that fluoride would be of little use.

Also, I'm fairly certain that my pineal gland is now completely calcified, and that I may develop osteoporosis from the hardening of my bones which has likely occurred... but on the bright side I've still got a full set of teeth

[niner]

If I had to bet money on it, I would lay it down on the side of your pineal gland and bones being ok. Not to Worry! I had the brown stain showing up at the gum line, and was able to reverse it with a high-fluoride toothpaste, so I guess I caught it in time. The fluoride in tea, combined with the good health outcomes from tea drinking does tend to shoot a hole in the 'fluoride is the most deadly poison in the universe' argument, doesn't it?

[manic_racetam]

If I had to bet money on it, I would lay it down on the side of your pineal gland and bones being ok. Not to Worry! I had the brown stain showing up at the gum line, and was able to reverse it with a high-fluoride toothpaste, so I guess I caught it in time. The fluoride in tea, combined with the good health outcomes from tea drinking does tend to shoot a hole in the 'fluoride is the most deadly poison in the universe' argument, doesn't it?

Well yes and no. The fluoride in tea is accumulative, so the older the tea tree, the higher the fluoride content of the leaves. Higher end green teas use young leaves, and the cheaper stuff is generally from older trees. So poor rural places in tibet, for example, have a high prevalence fluoride induced of bone abnormalities from drinking such cheap/low-grade tea.

Fluoride could even be considered a "trace nutrient" IMO, and coming from natural sources I think it's exactly that. One argument I still tend to agree with though, is that the man-made fluoride found in toothpaste isn't the same as fluoride found in natural sources like grains, teas, fungi, etc... So it shouldn't be assumed that the man-made sources are just as safe for internal use as the trace amounts found in natural sources.

Fluoride is a highly reactive and highly poisonous element, I don't think that should be ignored. Especially with products instructing you to avoid rinsing your mouth after use... eh, but yeah, at this point I'm fine... and I'll likely be fine for a long time to come, unless some experimental Nootropic takes me out

[niner]

We're basically in agreement on this. Fluoride is a perfect example of the inverted U-shaped curve. Too little and you're screwed, too much and you're screwed. That's true for every nutrient, only differing in the exact size and shape of the curve. Unlike most micronutrients, there's a huge anti-fluoride contingent on the internet, and they tend to get hyperbolic about it and say things that totally ignore the fact that dose is everything. Why is there no anti-copper hue and cry on the net? It's horribly bad in excess, and for decades, the plumbing industry has unloaded their excess copper on our houses in the form of toxic piping, leaching horrible poisons directly into the water we give to our babies!!! (I'm only half joking.. I drink tap water, but I use a filter that removes much of the copper, among other things.)

[xEva]

The theory behind fluoride is that it reacts with calcium ions to form a substance even stronger than tooth enamel. That's why they don't put calcium in the toothpaste with the fluoride.... because it would react in the tube making the fluoride useless on your teeth.

Oh! I did not know that, but suspected this was the case. Well then, my solution to this problem sounds even better now. So, usually I first brush with some commercial toothpaste with F in it, and then right after, with that calendula toothpaste, which is so soothing to the gums and has tons of Ca. This works for me very well.

And I don't relate to you saying that it took a year to remineralize a tooth. I find that tissues are quite dynamic. They grow or melt pretty fast -- maybe this is because I fast fairly often compared to regulars here? Last spring I stopped using a toothpaste with F for about 2 months and noticed how my teeth became kinda soft (actually my dentist pointed it first). So I resumed using it daily and had noticeable results in only 3-4 weeks.

And if you find comfrey with that toxic alcaloid removed --(I saw it sold like that somewhere on the net but did not buy it)-- it's out of this world how fast comfrey strengthens the teeth. You can feel it work immediately after a rinse (I swished for several minutes). And the rinse should have some minerals and phytohormones in addition to comfrey.

[thedevinroy]

Are there any comparative studies using iodide and fluoride for tooth decay? It is to my knowledge that fluoride can replace iodide when iodide is low in the diet, though not very well (which is why it can be used to increase thyroid hormones in small doses and larger doses can treat hyperthyroidism). After hearing that, I bought a years supply of kelp extract std. for 150mcg iodine. So far, so good (especially with increased magnesium). I'd say my pulp is pretty good at transporting it to my teeth because I no longer have sensitive teeth in the front. I swear it helps me think better, too.

[niner]

Are there any comparative studies using iodide and fluoride for tooth decay? It is to my knowledge that fluoride can replace iodide when iodide is low in the diet, though not very well (which is why it can be used to increase thyroid hormones in small doses and larger doses can treat hyperthyroidism). After hearing that, I bought a years supply of kelp extract std. for 150mcg iodine. So far, so good (especially with increased magnesium). I'd say my pulp is pretty good at transporting it to my teeth because I no longer have sensitive teeth in the front. I swear it helps me think better, too.

Iodide and fluoride are rather wildly different species. I can't think of any chemical situation where they would be even remotely interchangeable. Iodine is good stuff though; subclinical deficiency is rampant. I like what getting the RDA of supplemental iodine has done for me.

[thedevinroy]

Are there any comparative studies using iodide and fluoride for tooth decay? It is to my knowledge that fluoride can replace iodide when iodide is low in the diet, though not very well (which is why it can be used to increase thyroid hormones in small doses and larger doses can treat hyperthyroidism). After hearing that, I bought a years supply of kelp extract std. for 150mcg iodine. So far, so good (especially with increased magnesium). I'd say my pulp is pretty good at transporting it to my teeth because I no longer have sensitive teeth in the front. I swear it helps me think better, too.

Iodide and fluoride are rather wildly different species. I can't think of any chemical situation where they would be even remotely interchangeable. Iodine is good stuff though; subclinical deficiency is rampant. I like what getting the RDA of supplemental iodine has done for me.

I know for a fact fluoride is interchangeable in bone mineral structures and thyroid hormones, though not well might I add, and that is why I generally shy from using more fluoride than normal (ie, toothpaste, rinse well).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....e iodide dental

[niner]

I know for a fact fluoride is interchangeable in bone mineral structures and thyroid hormones, though not well might I add, and that is why I generally shy from using more fluoride than normal (ie, toothpaste, rinse well).

Fluoride can get into bone, although it's not exchanging with iodine there. Toxic levels of fluoride, like 100-200mg/liter of drinking water in one recent paper have an effect on levels of thyroid hormones (among many other problems), but again, there isn't a replacement of iodide happening there as far as I know. Fluoride has the same inverted U-shaped curve as many other substances; too little and you're hosed, too much and you're hosed.

[smithx]

There is a new procedure, developed in Asia, called 3Mix-MP, which is a combination of 3 antibiotics in a carrier of propylene glycol

According to this recent study, it doesn't actually work very well:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21951271

[xEva]

There is a new procedure, developed in Asia, called 3Mix-MP, which is a combination of 3 antibiotics in a carrier of propylene glycol

According to this recent study, it doesn't actually work very well:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21951271

I've seen this paper. Actually, I saw just like this one, with the same cherry-picked cohort. To me this sort of report is called Endodontists Strike Back! Here is why: they included only the teeth that were topped with stainless steel crown. The need for a crown speaks of advanced decay. The usual tek for this procedure calls for a composite resin inlay on top of glass-ionomer cement.

I bet it took them a long while gathering their cohort. And they ignored the vast majority that had this procedure and did not need crowns. Why?

And what crowns were those! That stainless steel is in fact iron-nickel alloy, a rather toxic mix to live tissues that are trying to heal. The fact that some teeth did heal despite toxic ions leaking from such crowns speaks for the procedure, not against it.

Still this is a good reminder that this procedure is ideal for a cavity with minimal pulpal involvement and most of the crown still intact.

Edited by niner, 26 April 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[Adamzski]

I am finally in a position where I can fly to a third world country and get my teeth all fixed...
Im living in Korea at the moment and will go to Thailand and get a few root canals, a few zircon crowns and a rear molar removed.
Going to a hospital that has good reviews and a facebook page with over 400 AU/NZ/USA ex patients a member of (contacted a few) so im not concerned about there steralization and general work.

The thing is I live $140 return from Japan and love to hang out there. any ideas on the cost of this 3Mix-MP LSTR?? or a pointer on where to get it done? I do see root canal as something like an old fashioned treatment like where we used to amputate limbs to treat infection...

[hivemind]

Root canals are fine. It is an effective way to save teeth.

There is a lot of nonsense about root canals on the internet.

Edited by hivemind, 02 November 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[xEva]

UPDATE It's been more than a year since my acquaintance had 3 of his teeth done 3Mix-MP LSTR way (and one tooth was done at the same time the traditional way, by the same dentist). I ran into him recently and asked for update. He says, all 4 teeth are fine.

The procedure works for the price of a regular filling and it leaves live teeth.

[Adamzski]

Thanks it might be worth me trying it on one tooth atleast

[Danail Bulgaria]

Since there is a nice, working way to do Your teeth with the traditional methods do not waste money for the new crap.

[Adamzski]

Does not seem to be any downsides to trying this, actualy saving a living tooth is worth the risk of a few hundred dollars and extra pain down the line.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I know, that xEva wrote, that after LSTR therapy the tooth remains alive, the damaged pulp regenerates fully and dentin remineralizes. However, the X-Rays, that she showed in her previous posts, show filled root canals, i.e. removed pulp and canals filled with canal sealant just after a standart treatment. I am really confused. The pulp regenerates, while the canals are filled? This is either something, that I really do not understand, or all this is some sort of big scam.

[xEva]

seivtcho, you sound like an endodontists. Are you? The xray I posted is taken from here: http://lstr.jp/e/journal.html which is the site for Journal of LSTR Therapy. I am not a dentist, so I cannot speak for that xray. I saw xrays of 'root-canalled' teeth and the fillings look much whiter -? I also doubt that they would put up a false picture, since their target audience are dentists.

Also, when I researched this issue, I read a number of reports published in professional dental journals (which anyone interested can find online. The link above has several references and then there was a link from 'root canal' page of wiki. That was ~18 months ago). The papers looked legit to me. Then the experience of a guy who went from Canada to Japan to have it done, which I read on a dental forum, also sounded legit to me. And then the experience of my acquaintance who did it following my info - that is certainly legit. The procedure is real. It is good and costs the same as a regular filling.

And by the way, I read that this procedure works as well for the 'regular' fillings (those without the pulp involvement), namely: they say there is no need to drill out all the caries (which is the regular tek in the west). They say that it's enough to simply sterilize the cavity with this antibiotic mix and seal. The softened tissue (aka caries) remineralizes later on. Thus the structure of the tooth is maximally preserved.

[Danail Bulgaria]

On x-ray the teeth look much whiter, because of the artifitial materials, with which the tooth tissues are replaced. The picture writes "Lesion Sterilization and Tissue Repair Therapy using 3Mix-MP". The standart treatment aims absolutely the same and achieves the same results as these of the picture.

I investigated and red the articles in the url, that You gave, i.e. http://lstr.jp/e/journal.html My opinion is that this "3Mix-MP" is something additional to the therapy, that can not replace the standart tratment. So, You will DEFINATELLY be made the standart treatment, when 3Mix-MP is used.

P.S. with ot without 3Mix-MP the results seem to be the same.

[xEva]

On x-ray the teeth look much whiter, because of the artifitial materials, with which the tooth tissues are replaced. The picture writes "Lesion Sterilization and Tissue Repair Therapy using 3Mix-MP". The standart treatment aims absolutely the same and achieves the same results as these of the picture.

I investigated and red the articles in the url, that You gave, i.e. http://lstr.jp/e/journal.html My opinion is that this "3Mix-MP" is something additional to the therapy, that can not replace the standart tratment. So, You will DEFINATELLY be made the standart treatment, when 3Mix-MP is used.

P.S. with ot without 3Mix-MP the results seem to be the same.

You are DEFINITELY wrong. Perhaps you have difficulty comprehending English material -? The whole point of this therapy is that the damaged pulp is retained and that it regenerates. This is the key to this procedure.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I already told my oppinion.

You may consult other dentists if You wish. I do not mind.

Neither of the studies on this web site showed actual pulp regeneration, that is different from the standart techniques, such as pulp capping and pulp protection, etc.

[xEva]

Are we reading the same site? Here is the abstract clicked on at random:

http://lstr.jp/e/_us...p-J LSTR-ab.pdf

Non-surgical treatment of pulpitis, including those with history of spontaneous pain, using a combination of antibacterial drugs

Toyohiko Takushige1, 3, D.D.S., Ph.D., Edward Venzon Cruz 1, 2, D.D.S., Ph.D., Md. Ali Asgor Moral1, 2, D.D.S., Ph.D., Etsuro Hoshino1, 2, D.D.S., Ph.D.

Oral Ecology in Health and Infection1 and Cariology Research Unit2, Niigata University Graduate School of Medical and Dental Sciences, Niigata, Japan, and Takushige Dental Clinic3, Sendai, Japan

This is a retrospective clinical study of 360 teeth diagnosed with pulpitis and treated locally with a combination of three antibacterial drugs (ciprofloxacin, metronidazole and minocycline, 3Mix-MP) without a pulpectomy procedure. Consecutive patients with a clinical diagnosis of pulpitis had pre-operative factors collected (spontaneous pain, pulp exposure, depth of carious lesion) and were treated by placement of 3Mix-MP onto the pulpal floor of the carious lesion where softened dentin was intentionally left, if any was present. The treated lesions were then sealed by glass-ionomer cement and restored by resin inlays. A good clinical outcome was defined as the lack of any spontaneous pain, no mechanical allodynia to biting and the presence of pulpal responsiveness to cold or electrical stimuli. Using these criteria, a good clinical outcome was found in 342 (95%) of the 360 cases. Six cases progressed to pulpal necrosis and the remaining 12 cases required re-treatment using the same 3Mix-MP, resulting in a subsequent good outcome. Recalcification of softened dentin was evident on postoperative radiographs. These data suggest that 3Mix-MP may be worth evaluating in prospective randomized clinical trials for treatment of pulpitis including cases of so-called "irreversible" pulpitis.

Journal of LSTR Therapy (International WEB version) VOL 7: 1-5, 2008

[Danail Bulgaria]

Yea, I think, that I wrote, that there already exist pulp protection methods.

P.S. pulp protection methods are used, when the caries leasion is too close to the pulp, including in cases, where there exist softened, but uncolored dentin.

Some methods are used with the opposite - dentin with slightly changed color but hard.

[xEva]

6-years update on 3Mix-MP alternative to root canal therapy: 

 

So, a friend of mine had 3 of his 4 teeth done this way in Dec 2011 (see my posts above). He had to travel to Lithuania from the US for this. Recently, some of the crowns had to be replaced. The Lithuanian dentist had warned him that they should last ~5 years. The 3 teeth that are still alive thanks to this therapy did not do any worse than the one done traditionally, via depulpation. 

 

Now, through a friend of a friend, he found a dentist in Brooklyn, NY, who agreed to redo these teeth in the same way. This dentist's objection was, "I'll do it, but this is not permanent" (and what is permanent, which is alive?)   As a permanent option, he offered the traditional root canal for ~$1K (vs ~$200 for this method).  

 

Cost aside, even if he has to do it every 5 years this is still a better option, because the tooth is still alive. In the meantime, new therapies are emerging for restoration of dentin: http://www.longecity...reparing-teeth/

 

I can't imagine anyone in the right mind agreeing to the traditional archaic depulpation method. As Adamzksi said above, this is akin to amputating a limb to treat infection.

 

 

PS

but note above the typical professional dentist response defending his turf "waste of money!" lol  

Edited by xEva, 24 September 2017 - 04:32 PM.