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Organic valley 'raw cheese' not really raw


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#1 TheFountain

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:30 AM


This is interesting.

I just discovered that organic valley uses a process called 'thermalization' on their so called 'raw cheese' products. Apparently they claim that heating the cheese just below the 'threshold of normal pasteurization' allows them the technical label of 'raw cheese'. They further claim, without any scientific evidence I might add, that 'some important enzymes' are preserved in this 'thermalization' process. They then go on to say that 'it tastes better' than normally pasteurized cheese and that they want their customers 'to have the choice' to taste 'raw cheese' if they so desire. So, weigh in here. What does thermalization truly preserve? Does it bring out the worst in casein? Can it still be considered probiotic? And can it even technically be called raw cheese? What is the real difference between pasteurized and 'thermalized' cheese and the corresponding health benefits of the latter?
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#2 TheFountain

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 12:04 PM

Update:

So I called Heini's amish farms today (another semi-mass producer of 'raw cheese' items) asking a few questions, and apparently the FDA forces any farmers who mass produce 'raw cheese' products to subject them to a 'thermalization' process in order to be 'safe for public consumption'. I really hate the FDA.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 July 2011 - 12:12 PM.

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#3 e Volution

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:26 PM

I really hate the FDA.

Totally with you here (and I am not even American)!

Good investigation work.

Unfortunately I suspect that probably most foods we eat that have any form of processing involved would harbour an undesirable trait such as this along the way.

#4 TheFountain

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 03:02 PM

I really hate the FDA.

Totally with you here (and I am not even American)!

Good investigation work.

Unfortunately I suspect that probably most foods we eat that have any form of processing involved would harbour an undesirable trait such as this along the way.


This government is getting more and more out of hand. Now my grandmother might not even get her Social security check next month! How sickening is that!

I remember a story a while back about the FDA sanctioning the 'viral adulteration of produce items'. This was apparently to decrease the likelihood of people getting sick from eating produce. Really? Or is it just another way of saying 'haha we can fuck with you whenever we want!'.

#5 Luminosity

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:02 AM

Ban the FDA.

I have had problems with all Organic Valley animal foods going back years. There are just various things wrong with their packaging, quality and taste. I avoid them.

I just talked to the Dairy person at Whole Foods and they said that they have raw cheese from Europe. They said only hard, aged cheeses are allowed to be raw. They said they have Ementaler, Grureye, Roquefort, Goat Cheese Manchego and some more. I didn't enquire if they were heated, but Europeans are better about not doing stuff like that. Whole Foods where I live did not have any raw milk soft cheeses, yogurt or cream. If you find any sources for raw milk products that are national, let us know.

#6 TheFountain

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:11 AM

Ban the FDA.

I have had problems with all Organic Valley animal foods going back years. There are just various things wrong with their packaging, quality and taste. I avoid them.

I just talked to the Dairy person at Whole Foods and they said that they have raw cheese from Europe. They said only hard, aged cheeses are allowed to be raw. They said they have Ementaler, Grureye, Roquefort, Goat Cheese Manchego and some more. I didn't enquire if they were heated, but Europeans are better about not doing stuff like that. Whole Foods where I live did not have any raw milk soft cheeses, yogurt or cream. If you find any sources for raw milk products that are national, let us know.


I am looking into it. But can't you order from whole foods?

Also of interest, related to organic valley and their suppliers, is this:

'Many of their farmers had active raw milk businesses established before they even joined the cooperative, many operating in states where the enterprise is unquestionably legal. Others developed raw milk customers after their incomes droppedallowing these farms to remain solvent. The new policy will force these farmers to choose between remaining a CROPP member or selling raw milk exclusively, either of which will likely lead to severe financial stress or even bankruptcy and possible loss of the family farm.

Despite our grave concerns, I received a response from George Siemon dated June 21, 2010, stating that the anti-raw milk policy would remain in effect. In the letter, Siemon insisted that CROPP is not against raw milk, and that we are standing on the same side of the river in supporting organic and local food, agricultural reform and corporate reform.

Is that true? CROPP did indeed start small, as a local cooperative of just a few dozen vegetable farmers, the Coulee Region Organic Produce Pool. The co-ops seven dairy producers soon branched out from produce to include cheese and eventually other dairy products. Unfortunately, in so doing, they opted for the industrial model. Instead of producing what consumers were asking fordairy products as natural as possible, such as low-temperature, non-homogenized milkCROPP chose to market ultra-high temperature (UHT), homogenized industrial-style milk and cream. (UHT processing takes milk to 230 degrees F, way above the boiling point, thereby killing every enzyme and immune-supporting factor in the milk.) When they branched out into eggs, they chose the industrial organic confinement model, instead of pastured poultry, something their grass-based farmers were perfectly positioned to do. Their raw cheese is actually heated to above 150 degrees. They also sell an Organic Valley brand of soy milk.

We then further delayed making any announcement about the OV decision because we were working behind the scenes with representatives of the co-op, and hoping that OV would reconsider. However, at their most recent board meeting, the board voted 7-0 that raw milk sales by their producers must not exceed 1 percent of their volume, and must be limited to family, friends and neighbors. While some board members have insisted that this anti-raw milk policy will not be enforced, we hear from others in the organization that OV is planning to strenuously enforce the policy.'

http://wholefoodusa....te-partnership/

#7 TheFountain

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 08:13 AM

I found this list of 'truly raw' versus not 'truly raw' sources of dairy products. From the statements on a couple of the 'truly raw' websites, their products are 'heat treated at or below 105 F. Which is suppose to preserve the beneficial enzymes and bacteria. I cannot find any source to substantiate these claims however. The one named 'neighborly farms of vermont' looks interesting, but I cannot find on their site whether or not they 'heat treat' their dairy. I plan to call them to find out. What I am wondering though is, since all these cheeses are aged for at least 60 days, doesn't the aging process itself kill off any harmful bacteria? Why then heat treat the milk used for the cheeses?

http://dianeschnier....pecific-brands/

Edited by TheFountain, 19 July 2011 - 08:17 AM.


#8 TheFountain

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:35 PM

I called neighborly farms of vermont this morning and the good news is they are an old fashioned producer of raw dairy products. No heat treatment at all, aged no less than 60 days at around 40 degrees F. The bad news is that containment costs are around 10$ per pound BEFORE shipping. So if you buy 2 pounds worth of raw cheese, you're looking at spending about 30$ in shipping alone!

#9 Luminosity

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 03:35 AM

Thanks for finding them. It sounds like a good resource for people in that area.

#10 TheFountain

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:21 PM

Thanks for finding them. It sounds like a good resource for people in that area.


The guy from neighborly farms of vermont said that in the cooler seasons overall shipping charges go down. But the package prices remain. I may order some this autumn/winter. I knew I didn't try raw dairy the right way. I want to try 'real' raw dairy, and I am willing to alter my diet temporarily to do so.

#11 TheFountain

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:24 PM

By the way, does anyone know if when you look at the ingredients of a specialty cheese and it does not say 'pasteurized milk' but simply 'milk and enzymes' does this mean it is raw?

#12 Skötkonung

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 06:03 PM

By the way, does anyone know if when you look at the ingredients of a specialty cheese and it does not say 'pasteurized milk' but simply 'milk and enzymes' does this mean it is raw?

I would assume no. Usually when raw milk is used, even in specialty products like artisan cheeses, they will mention it.

#13 Robert C

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 06:49 PM

What would be the benefits of a truly raw cheese over a normal organic cheese if one takes a daily probiotic? Are there any beneficial organisms in a truly raw cheese that would not be found in a good probiotic?

#14 TheFountain

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 09:08 PM

^^^ Good question.

But don't most probiotic milk products contain pasteurized dairy? That would be one non-benefit I could think of. Pasteurized dairy produces changes in lactose which can make it a stomach irritant for many.

#15 TheFountain

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 09:10 PM

By the way, does anyone know if when you look at the ingredients of a specialty cheese and it does not say 'pasteurized milk' but simply 'milk and enzymes' does this mean it is raw?

I would assume no. Usually when raw milk is used, even in specialty products like artisan cheeses, they will mention it.


What are your thoughts on thermalization vs normal pasteurization and this claim that thermalized milk products preserve 'many beneficial enzymes'?

#16 Luminosity

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:26 AM

What would be the benefits of a truly raw cheese over a normal organic cheese if one takes a daily probiotic? Are there any beneficial organisms in a truly raw cheese that would not be found in a good probiotic?


EFA's and other things would be in much better condition. If you are ever in Europe, try the raw dairy products there. You can taste the difference. It's like the difference between cooked fruit and raw.

#17 Skötkonung

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 06:14 AM

By the way, does anyone know if when you look at the ingredients of a specialty cheese and it does not say 'pasteurized milk' but simply 'milk and enzymes' does this mean it is raw?

I would assume no. Usually when raw milk is used, even in specialty products like artisan cheeses, they will mention it.


What are your thoughts on thermalization vs normal pasteurization and this claim that thermalized milk products preserve 'many beneficial enzymes'?

I'm not up to date on the science of preserving enzyme activity in milk. In truth, I've pretty much given up cheese and casein/lactose containing dairy in my diet. I do use a little pastured butter and cheese for taste, but that's it. It may be my subjective opinion, but my skin looks a lot clearer without milk. I think it might be a mild irritant for me. Even raw goat milk has this effect on me. If I start drinking a gallon of milk over a week's time, by the end of the gallon I will 100% have acne on shoulders / back. Same with excessive amounts of cheese or yogurt. Not so much with cream or butter. I think it's the casein.


The only benefits for milk consumption would be K2 and CLA (easily gotten through butter, meat, or supplements), vitamin A (eggs, meat products or cod liver oil), and minerals (calcium, selenium, and magnesium from all kinds of foods, plus fortified coconut milk).

Trader Joes has a decent selection of raw cheeses. They have a New Zealand raw grassfed cheddar that you would probably really like,

#18 TheFountain

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:02 AM

By the way, does anyone know if when you look at the ingredients of a specialty cheese and it does not say 'pasteurized milk' but simply 'milk and enzymes' does this mean it is raw?

I would assume no. Usually when raw milk is used, even in specialty products like artisan cheeses, they will mention it.


What are your thoughts on thermalization vs normal pasteurization and this claim that thermalized milk products preserve 'many beneficial enzymes'?

I'm not up to date on the science of preserving enzyme activity in milk. In truth, I've pretty much given up cheese and casein/lactose containing dairy in my diet. I do use a little pastured butter and cheese for taste, but that's it. It may be my subjective opinion, but my skin looks a lot clearer without milk. I think it might be a mild irritant for me. Even raw goat milk has this effect on me. If I start drinking a gallon of milk over a week's time, by the end of the gallon I will 100% have acne on shoulders / back. Same with excessive amounts of cheese or yogurt. Not so much with cream or butter. I think it's the casein.


The only benefits for milk consumption would be K2 and CLA (easily gotten through butter, meat, or supplements), vitamin A (eggs, meat products or cod liver oil), and minerals (calcium, selenium, and magnesium from all kinds of foods, plus fortified coconut milk).

Trader Joes has a decent selection of raw cheeses. They have a New Zealand raw grassfed cheddar that you would probably really like,


I've pretty much always known that normal dairy is an irritant to me. I was/am unclear about raw dairy though. So I am taking a break from the vegan diet temporarily in order to ascertain whether or not it's all dairy or pasteurized dairy specifically. Of course anything in excess has the potential of being an irritant due to too much of a specific nutrient or something else. I bought some raw cheese from the local health food store that is not heat treated. I felt the need to confirm whether or not this was a problem the last time I added dairy to the diet. I'll proceed with caution and eat it in moderation, of course. Is the butter you're consuming pasteurized? I've never seen raw butter anywhere personally.

#19 TheFountain

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 05:25 AM

Skot, you say you can get those things from butter, but comparatively, isn't butter very low in vitamin k and other nutrients? In fact, what is the benefit of eating butter besides extra calories and fat? I mean it has very negligible amounts of calcium even. How much iodine is in butter compared to cheese?

Edited by TheFountain, 11 August 2011 - 05:35 AM.


#20 Skötkonung

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:41 PM

Skot, you say you can get those things from butter, but comparatively, isn't butter very low in vitamin k and other nutrients? In fact, what is the benefit of eating butter besides extra calories and fat? I mean it has very negligible amounts of calcium even. How much iodine is in butter compared to cheese?

Unless you are eating blue cheese or something similar, you won't be getting much vitamin K from dairy. I just looked up the levels to prove you wrong and incidentally proved myself wrong. Conventional butter has about 8mcg per tablespoon (not much considering a typical supplement does is 1000mcg), higher yet in pastured varieties. Butter also has CLA, vitamin A, beta-carotenes, DHA, and mineral content. Most of these are also in small doses.

The more I think about it, butter isn't all that great. Probably best to stick with natto and blue cheese for concentrated doses of vitamin K. CLA, DHA, and all that other good stuff can come from vegetables, meats and pastured eggs.

#21 TheFountain

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:38 AM

Skot, you say you can get those things from butter, but comparatively, isn't butter very low in vitamin k and other nutrients? In fact, what is the benefit of eating butter besides extra calories and fat? I mean it has very negligible amounts of calcium even. How much iodine is in butter compared to cheese?

Unless you are eating blue cheese or something similar, you won't be getting much vitamin K from dairy. I just looked up the levels to prove you wrong and incidentally proved myself wrong. Conventional butter has about 8mcg per tablespoon (not much considering a typical supplement does is 1000mcg), higher yet in pastured varieties. Butter also has CLA, vitamin A, beta-carotenes, DHA, and mineral content. Most of these are also in small doses.

The more I think about it, butter isn't all that great. Probably best to stick with natto and blue cheese for concentrated doses of vitamin K. CLA, DHA, and all that other good stuff can come from vegetables, meats and pastured eggs.



I'll be honest and say that I love the taste of organic butter and raw dairy, but the more I research dairy the less necessary it seems as a dietary staple. Right now I am doing vegan+eggs, which isn't really vegan but your post on choline convinced me. It also seems to be a decent dietary source of selenium, without going into toxic levels, as seems to be the case with brazil nuts. I may reformat the vegan diet again and add choline and selenium as supplements. But only time can tell. Right now I am taking a 100 mcg vitamin K2 with alfalfa root just to get nominal daily doses of K2. What is the established upper limit of K2? I remember reading a post by paul saying he took 5 mgs a day. I was wondering if this was too much even.

Edited by TheFountain, 17 August 2011 - 06:38 AM.


#22 Skötkonung

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 10:24 PM

Skot, you say you can get those things from butter, but comparatively, isn't butter very low in vitamin k and other nutrients? In fact, what is the benefit of eating butter besides extra calories and fat? I mean it has very negligible amounts of calcium even. How much iodine is in butter compared to cheese?

Unless you are eating blue cheese or something similar, you won't be getting much vitamin K from dairy. I just looked up the levels to prove you wrong and incidentally proved myself wrong. Conventional butter has about 8mcg per tablespoon (not much considering a typical supplement does is 1000mcg), higher yet in pastured varieties. Butter also has CLA, vitamin A, beta-carotenes, DHA, and mineral content. Most of these are also in small doses.

The more I think about it, butter isn't all that great. Probably best to stick with natto and blue cheese for concentrated doses of vitamin K. CLA, DHA, and all that other good stuff can come from vegetables, meats and pastured eggs.



I'll be honest and say that I love the taste of organic butter and raw dairy, but the more I research dairy the less necessary it seems as a dietary staple. Right now I am doing vegan+eggs, which isn't really vegan but your post on choline convinced me. It also seems to be a decent dietary source of selenium, without going into toxic levels, as seems to be the case with brazil nuts. I may reformat the vegan diet again and add choline and selenium as supplements. But only time can tell. Right now I am taking a 100 mcg vitamin K2 with alfalfa root just to get nominal daily doses of K2. What is the established upper limit of K2? I remember reading a post by paul saying he took 5 mgs a day. I was wondering if this was too much even.

It depends on the type of K2. I presume you are taking K2-MK7 (derived from Natto) because your supplement is rated in mcg. K2-MK4 is usually rated in mg (1000mcg). MK4 is only found in animal foods (eggs, meat, and dairy) while MK7 is primarily found in fermented foods (natto). Paul was probably taking MK4 and 5mg is not toxic. Even natto has a massively larger dose of MK7 per serving than what you get in supplements. The Japanese, as part of an experimental bone strengthening regimen, megadose K2 without any adverse effects.

I get my K2-MK4 from foods (occasional eggs and daily meat / organs) and my K2-MK7 from a serving natto every morning. I'm probably getting way more K2 than I need but have not noticed adverse effects. Both forms have shown health benefits, but the literature seems to favor MK4 over MK7.

I'm going to do some research on the K2 content of eggs and get back to you with some numbers.

#23 TheFountain

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 06:59 AM

Skot, you say you can get those things from butter, but comparatively, isn't butter very low in vitamin k and other nutrients? In fact, what is the benefit of eating butter besides extra calories and fat? I mean it has very negligible amounts of calcium even. How much iodine is in butter compared to cheese?

Unless you are eating blue cheese or something similar, you won't be getting much vitamin K from dairy. I just looked up the levels to prove you wrong and incidentally proved myself wrong. Conventional butter has about 8mcg per tablespoon (not much considering a typical supplement does is 1000mcg), higher yet in pastured varieties. Butter also has CLA, vitamin A, beta-carotenes, DHA, and mineral content. Most of these are also in small doses.

The more I think about it, butter isn't all that great. Probably best to stick with natto and blue cheese for concentrated doses of vitamin K. CLA, DHA, and all that other good stuff can come from vegetables, meats and pastured eggs.



I'll be honest and say that I love the taste of organic butter and raw dairy, but the more I research dairy the less necessary it seems as a dietary staple. Right now I am doing vegan+eggs, which isn't really vegan but your post on choline convinced me. It also seems to be a decent dietary source of selenium, without going into toxic levels, as seems to be the case with brazil nuts. I may reformat the vegan diet again and add choline and selenium as supplements. But only time can tell. Right now I am taking a 100 mcg vitamin K2 with alfalfa root just to get nominal daily doses of K2. What is the established upper limit of K2? I remember reading a post by paul saying he took 5 mgs a day. I was wondering if this was too much even.

It depends on the type of K2. I presume you are taking K2-MK7 (derived from Natto) because your supplement is rated in mcg. K2-MK4 is usually rated in mg (1000mcg). MK4 is only found in animal foods (eggs, meat, and dairy) while MK7 is primarily found in fermented foods (natto). Paul was probably taking MK4 and 5mg is not toxic. Even natto has a massively larger dose of MK7 per serving than what you get in supplements. The Japanese, as part of an experimental bone strengthening regimen, megadose K2 without any adverse effects.

I get my K2-MK4 from foods (occasional eggs and daily meat / organs) and my K2-MK7 from a serving natto every morning. I'm probably getting way more K2 than I need but have not noticed adverse effects. Both forms have shown health benefits, but the literature seems to favor MK4 over MK7.

I'm going to do some research on the K2 content of eggs and get back to you with some numbers.


Those numbers seem to vary depending on how the chickens are raised, but in any case does not seem to be significant, according to nutritiondata.self.com.

But there are about 10 other good reasons to keep eggs as an on/off dietary staple.

I think I am going to invest in a k2-MK4 supplement with my next swanson order.

The only thing that concerned me regarding overdosing with k2 are reports of blood clotting issues, but I presume these were from people who megadosed for months or years.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 August 2011 - 07:02 AM.


#24 Skötkonung

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 04:38 PM

Eggs are an excellent food, but I do worry about oxidized cholesterol to some extent. I suppose if you hard boil them, the amount of oxidized cholesterol will be kept to a minimum.

I looked online (German database) and I found out that 100g of hard boiled egg has 9mcg of K2-MK4. A large free-range egg is about 60g so that doesn't really provide too much K2.

You're right though, K2 varies tremendously based on diet and soil conditions:From Chris Masterjohn: "After analyzing over 20,000 samples of butter sent to him from around the world, however, Price found that the [vitamin K2] concentration varied 50-fold..."
At the end of that article there is a table, with citations, listing the type and source of K2 in various foods. It shows butter as 15 mcg/100g.

My supposition is that most people are K2 deficient. After a deficiency has been corrected, large doses of K2 may no longer be necessary on a daily basis. The same goes with vitamin D3 and vitamin A. The dose to prevent deficiency is probably different than the dose needed to correct deficiency.




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#25 TheFountain

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 01:15 PM

Eggs are an excellent food, but I do worry about oxidized cholesterol to some extent. I suppose if you hard boil them, the amount of oxidized cholesterol will be kept to a minimum.

I looked online (German database) and I found out that 100g of hard boiled egg has 9mcg of K2-MK4. A large free-range egg is about 60g so that doesn't really provide too much K2.

You're right though, K2 varies tremendously based on diet and soil conditions:From Chris Masterjohn: "After analyzing over 20,000 samples of butter sent to him from around the world, however, Price found that the [vitamin K2] concentration varied 50-fold..."
At the end of that article there is a table, with citations, listing the type and source of K2 in various foods. It shows butter as 15 mcg/100g.

My supposition is that most people are K2 deficient. After a deficiency has been corrected, large doses of K2 may no longer be necessary on a daily basis. The same goes with vitamin D3 and vitamin A. The dose to prevent deficiency is probably different than the dose needed to correct deficiency.





I think the dose paul was taking was more than likely a dose to prevent deficiency, since like me, he has been an on/off vegan (presumably more on than off) for a while.

My strategy might be to take the following supplement every other day (saves money as well). Well I am thinking of having a loading phase of about 1-2 weeks, then a maintenance dose of 5 mgs every other day. Any thoughts on said strategy? By the way do you know at what dose and what form of vitamin K people were experience blood clot issues with (can't find any references on google specific to type+dose)?

Here's the supplement:

http://www.swansonvi...N028/ItemDetail

Edited by TheFountain, 20 August 2011 - 01:22 PM.





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