52 replies to this topic

[caveat]

Goals:
1.Clear thinking in social situations *
2.Mental energy / alertness
3.Focus/memory

Some people use both DMAE and ALCAR at the same time, but after reading this it seems that i should choose just one.
ALCAR reacts faster, although both substances seem to have similar effects.

Also considering L-theatine and phenybil for #1.

And how would PEA interact with DMAE/ALCAR ? It would be used as a substitute for alcohol in social situations, so 1-2/week at most.


Really confused, guess i must give my brain some time to sort out the information.


*currently my mind goes into "blank" mode, speaking at a faster rate, although i don't have any problem keeping eye contact, etc.

[thedevinroy]

DMAE and ALCAR can be taken together, but more effectively spaced apart. They use the same transporter, but I've never seen it a problem. Depends how much you take.

PEA is not considered a nootropic, but instead a recreational supplement. It releases dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin as well is a substrate for MAO-B, further elevating these levels. Recreational doses are taken at 0.5g to 2g and usually with 50mg-100mg of hordenine. Hordenine I believe to be more nootropic than PEA, because it's primary action is a substrate for MAO-B (which prevents Parkinson's).

Don't know what L-theatine or phenybil are... don't come up on Google. Do you mean L-Theanine and Phenibut?

[caveat]

Thanks for the response.

Do you mean L-Theanine and Phenibut?

Yes. Sorry for the confusion.


Found a study about L-Theanine and caffeine, although caffeine effects are nothing new, the study that proves positive synergistic of two makes me wanna try it.

[X_Danny_X]

oh so it is good to take DMAE and ALCAR apart huh. but they do the samething then i gues it is best to take one of them. though from what you said. ALCAR targes NGF receptors. what else does it do?

[thedevinroy]

Thanks for the response.

Do you mean L-Theanine and Phenibut?

Yes. Sorry for the confusion.


Found a study about L-Theanine and caffeine, although caffeine effects are nothing new, the study that proves positive synergistic of two makes me wanna try it.

Phenibut is a nootropic for some - for those with increased anxiety. However, please be aware of withdrawal.

L-Theanine has potential as a non-drowsy sleep aid, but I haven't looked into it deep enough to really know all about it in terms of a nootropic.

[thedevinroy]

oh so it is good to take DMAE and ALCAR apart huh. but they do the samething then i gues it is best to take one of them. though from what you said. ALCAR targes NGF receptors. what else does it do?

They do not do the same thing. They use the same transport mechanism... meaning that they are absorbed the same way. They are both stimulating in their own regard as well as work on cholinergic pathways. They also are both antioxidants. BUT... they feel way different. They ARE different molecules and thus cannot have precisely the same mechanism. ALCAR increases NGF receptor sites as well as NGF expression.

[X_Danny_X]

i see, what does PEA stands for? and what brands are there for it. Dopamine, Serotonin, and norepinephrine, it targets all of them huh? Is this good to stack with Ritalin and Bacopa??

[caveat]

i see, what does PEA stands for? and what brands are there for it. Dopamine, Serotonin, and norepinephrine, it targets all of them huh? Is this good to stack with Ritalin and Bacopa??

PEA stands Phenethylamine. I'm considering bulk powder, not sure if there is a 'brand' version.

From what i read DMAE isn't considered a good choline source, and doesn't affect the acetylcholine production, and what about ALCAR ? Is it a good choline source ? Would Choline Bitartrate be effecting while using DMAE/ALCAR ?

I'm starting to form a picture that ALCAR has stronger effects than DMAE.

By the way how do you dose your supplements ? I guess getting mg-scales is necessary. I'm planning to start at low doses (100mg and such) and increase by 50-100 up to recommended to measure the effects.

Also thinking about some kind of energetic for the morning exercise (running) - caffeine(tolerance ?) or some kind of creatine looks like a good option (like DI- CREATINE MALATE).

Edited by caveat, 30 July 2011 - 10:50 PM.

[enoch1]

I to I'm after a Good Source of Choline,

DMAE does nothing to help AcetylCholine Neurotransmitter.

Which source would be effective in increasing Choline?
- Alpha GPC ?
- CDP Choline ?

Please advise ASAP as I am tappering of SSRIs and I;ve read Acetylcholine is affected when tappering off,

Can you use both at once Alpha GPC & CDP ? Are these the best source for increasing Acetylcholine ?

[X_Danny_X]

Both of them are good Choline sources, though Alpha GPC from what i heard is not cheap. it is more expensive.

[thedevinroy]

Actually DMAE does inhibit choline uptake (on phosphatidylcholine synthesis... see this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11460263 ... and this thread: http://www.longecity...uptake-by-dmae/), thus elevating blood levels of choline. To say it does not effect choline would not be true, but to say it doesn't directly affect brain ACh levels would be correct. Acetylation is a limiting factor from choline's conversion to Acetylcholine, so ALCAR supplementation would be beneficial for acetylation and TMG for methylation. On top of that, you should consider supplementing with phosphatidylcholine because DMAE lowers its synthesis (see links above). Thus, stacking with DMAE, ALCAR, TMG, and phosphatidylcholine (like in lecithin) will give you all the effects of a healthy cholinergic system. If you are taking something that increases choline uptake like Piracetam (and other racetams), then additional choline like Alpha GPC and CDP Choline may help to achieve that same level in the brain.

Ain't DMAE a bitch? You love it, but its such a handful.

Alpha GPC is not more expensive. It's roughly the same (at least with NootraBioLabs). Some prefer it because it has more choline per gram, while some prefer citicoline (CDP Choline) because it also helps in phosphotidylcholine (because it is an intermediate).

Choline Bitartrate does elevated brain choline to some degree, but has limited effectiveness permeating the blood brain barrier in comparison to citicoline and Alpha-GPC.

ALCAR is a better supplement, in my opinion, too. But as with increased acetylcholine, there will be a decrease in the protective phospholipid, phosphatidylcholine, used in membranes. Thus, ALCAR is also incomplete and should be used with a choline supplement.

Caffeine as a nootropic is highly debated. It really depends on your experience. Sometimes it makes you feel more focused, but the energetic focus subsides to an energetic distract-able state.

Running is much more nootropic-friendly.

[X_Danny_X]

so taking ALCAR with Alpha GPC makes ALCAR more powerful??


what the hell is TMG, never heard it before.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 01 August 2011 - 03:39 AM.

[X_Danny_X]

eh? i can't edit my previous posts? anyway, whole eggs, peanut butter, or oats contain choline. i only eat eggs out of the three, so do i need to buy a choline source like ALPHA GPC or any other choline source??

is it okay to take PEA with Ritalin??

Edited by X_Danny_X, 01 August 2011 - 01:38 PM.

[thedevinroy]

so taking ALCAR with Alpha GPC makes ALCAR more powerful??


what the hell is TMG, never heard it before.

Rather, it more likely makes the Alpha GPC more powerful.

TMG (short for trimethylglycine) is also called betaine. It is produced from the break down of choline via the enzyme Choline Dehydrogenase. One reason why choline and monoamines like serotonin and dopamine are related is because choline is broken down into TMG, a potent methyl doner. Since methylation is required for monoamine production, choline (and TMG) are helpful in overall brain function. I suggested TMG with DMAE, specifically, because DMAE is missing a methyl group from becoming choline and is therefore considered a "methyl taker".

[thedevinroy]

eh? i can't edit my previous posts? anyway, whole eggs, peanut butter, or oats contain choline. i only eat eggs out of the three, so do i need to buy a choline source like ALPHA GPC or any other choline source??

is it okay to take PEA with Ritalin??

Those are sources of phosphatidylcholine, a bioavailable form of choline. Taking those from food I suppose is a good way, but you will not likely want to eat eggs every day (cholesterol), so taking either soy lecithin (also phosphatidylcholine) or like you say, Alpha GPC, will make it easier to get healthy levels of choline each day.

I'm not your doctor, but if I magically attained my medical degree, I would maintain the same thoughts on this. No it is not okay to take PEA with Ritalin. Ritalin is actually chemically similar to PEA (Ritalin is a substituted PEA at positions R^N+R^alpha and R^beta). In order to get beneficial effects from PEA, you must take large amounts (upwards of a gram or more) or take with an MAO-B inhibitor like hordenine or Deprenyl. This is because MAO-B enzyme will easily and quickly break it down before it reaches an effective concentration in the blood stream.

Thus, as soon as you "feel" the effects from PEA, you will have effectively inhibited (temporarily) the majority of MAO-B enzymes, which could cause an overaccumulation of the dopamine and norepinephrine already elevated from the Ritalin and even more so by PEA directly as a release agent. Hence, it has a tripling effect on Ritalin, which is unlikely a safe circumstance.

On the other hand, PEA is short lived. Since it is only a substrate (as is hordenine, the MAO-B inhibitor commonly used alongside PEA), the MAO-B enzymes break it down fairly quickly. So if you do decide to use it and accidentally O.D. (or take recreationally) alongside Ritalin (or anything), and you survive, everything will be back to normal in a few short hours. PEA is a trace amine released up to the first 3 years of an intimate relationship (see Wiki for pair-bonding) to signal attraction, and the body knows how to instinctively handle high levels of it. I blame it responsible for the climbing divorce rates, haha.

Edited by devinthayer, 01 August 2011 - 02:34 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

i see thanks, so i will avoid PEA and Ritalin, i was thinking it was overload with the dopamine.

so taking Alpha GPC with ALCAR makes it more powerful. choline is brain fuel. so if i take them together like this along with food that have choline, it will give me more mental energy. i work and take college courses at the sametime. so this would be beneficial if ALCAR and choline source like ALPHA GPC gives my brain more mental energy.

i have to disagree with cholesterol being bad for you. dietary cholesterol has no connection to LDL cholesterol. alot of societies eat eggs everyday and are just fine. the amount taken as well is alot. i take about 12-15 eggs a day and i have been doing it for 10 years. i went to check my LDL and my HDL levels, they were just fine, in fact better than what my doctor usually sees. it is when they take foods processed foods, cereals, grains, non-organic meat, etc. that the body starts developing problems such as heart disease.

[caveat]

Actually DMAE does inhibit choline uptake (on phosphatidylcholine synthesis... see this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11460263 ... and this thread: http://www.longecity...uptake-by-dmae/), thus elevating blood levels of choline. To say it does not effect choline would not be true, but to say it doesn't directly affect brain ACh levels would be correct. Acetylation is a limiting factor from choline's conversion to Acetylcholine, so ALCAR supplementation would be beneficial for acetylation and TMG for methylation. On top of that, you should consider supplementing with phosphatidylcholine because DMAE lowers its synthesis (see links above). Thus, stacking with DMAE, ALCAR, TMG, and phosphatidylcholine (like in lecithin) will give you all the effects of a healthy cholinergic system. If you are taking something that increases choline uptake like Piracetam (and other racetams), then additional choline like Alpha GPC and CDP Choline may help to achieve that same level in the brain.

ALCAR is a better supplement, in my opinion, too. But as with increased acetylcholine, there will be a decrease in the protective phospholipid, phosphatidylcholine, used in membranes. Thus, ALCAR is also incomplete and should be used with a choline supplement.

Thanks for the input, though i'll have to read a lot more to fully understand the mechanisms behind this.

By the way found one interesting effect of stacking ALCAR + L-Theanine for sleep reduction, the idea of requiring 1-2h less of sleep is amazing ! However need to research the full effects on the body, it might be enough for the mind, but it may be bad for the body, especially if exercising heavily.

[lourdaud]

By the way found one interesting effect of stacking ALCAR + L-Theanine for sleep reduction, the idea of requiring 1-2h less of sleep is amazing ! However need to research the full effects on the body, it might be enough for the mind, but it may be bad for the body, especially if exercising heavily.

Hehehe, I just started trying that two days ago.. At around 5 pm I've taken ~0,5 g ALCAR along with Piracetam, Aniracetam and some L-theanine and then off to bed at 9.. Can't tell if it's working or not as I still have been sleeping my eight hours each night. However I've had the wildest dreams EVER these nights, they were reaally intense and crazy but I was in a much more conscient state than usually when dreaming. They resembled a bit the kind of dreamy thoughts that arrive when you're in between being awake and dreaming, but they where a lot more on the dreamy side..
Could of course be the racetams and/or the l-theanine that's giving me these dreams, if not however, that is if it's the ALCAR that's behind it, I would be surprised if this is supposed to give you a better sleep as a better sleep would need to be deeper and not lighter and dreamier, no? Or is there something I'm missing?
Oh yeah, forgot to tell, also taking Bacopa and Ashwaganda one hour before bed so maybe I shouldn't think that it's the ALCAR who's behind the dreaming, hehe...

[thedevinroy]

Both Bacopa and ALCAR are known to cause vivid/lucid dreams. It has no effect on my sleep, but if I take too much Bacopa during the day, it slows me down. I can take massive amounts at night.

However, DMAE is a much better sleepfulness aid than either Bacopa or ALCAR. With DMAE, I wake up refreshed every time. It's funny because it is a stimulant, so you figure it would keep you up more, but it has no effect on falling asleep, just waking up. ALCAR is more of a morning tonic, like a cup of orange juice. DMAE is like a coffee replacement. I have yet to really take them together, but when I do, I'll try it before bed and see how it goes.

Edited by devinthayer, 01 August 2011 - 08:22 PM.

[nupi]

Does ALCAR frequently cause interrupts in sleep and awakefulness in the middle of the night? Because I am experiencing that since a few days and coincidentally I started taking ALCAR in the morning 5 days ago... (stacked with 200mg Theanine and Holy Basil at night)

I think I am also getting the dream effects, as I usually cannot remember having any dreams whereas I have had two nights of crazy intense (but ultimately rather hard to remember) dreams. Maybe I am going to add Bacopa and/or Ashwaghanda at night.

Edited by nupi, 02 August 2011 - 08:34 AM.

[lourdaud]

Devin: Well yeah but does that say that DMAE help you sleep better or just that it's still running in your system when you're waking up and therefore feel more alert?? I'm asking this as that's how I've felt sometimes when I've taken more stimulants than usual and/or taking them late at night..
The DMAE-properties you've spoken about however interest me, as it's supposed to be anti-cholinergic and thus working a bit like Memantine does for amphetamine, at the same time that it does that other thing that heightens cholinergic activity, which I didn't really get, but yeah anyway, seems great. haha

And btw, update, last night was even MORE crazy than the night before... holy crap, I've never experienced anything like that a part from when having a very high fever one time.. Thought I had lost all that imagination..
I think that the rebound effect of the dexamphetamine makes it even more worse and more psychotic.. the dreams weren't scary but there was a feeling of profound anxiety all-over.

Also, Devin!, I've just received some TMG and L-Methionine, so now I have the following to help cholinergic activity: TMG, L-Methionine, ALCAR, DMAE, and I also eat 3 + 3 egg yolks per day as I'm still waiting for the lecithin to arrive.. What I'm wondering is if you could give advice on how to take them during the day?? TMG and L-Methionine along with the ALCAR and egg yolks in the morning?? thanks!!
Oh, I forgot, I also have Methyl B-12, Solgar B-Complex and Thorne Basic B-Complex, if this makes any difference..

Edited by klantskalle, 02 August 2011 - 06:16 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Devin: Well yeah but does that say that DMAE help you sleep better or just that it's still running in your system when you're waking up and therefore feel more alert?? I'm asking this as that's how I've felt sometimes when I've taken more stimulants than usual and/or taking them late at night..
The DMAE-properties you've spoken about however interest me, as it's supposed to be anti-cholinergic and thus working a bit like Memantine does for amphetamine, at the same time that it does that other thing that heightens cholinergic activity, which I didn't really get, but yeah anyway, seems great. haha

And btw, update, last night was even MORE crazy than the night before... holy crap, I've never experienced anything like that a part from when having a very high fever one time.. Thought I had lost all that imagination..
I think that the rebound effect of the dexamphetamine makes it even more worse and more psychotic.. the dreams weren't scary but there was a feeling of profound anxiety all-over.

Also, Devin!, I've just received some TMG and L-Methionine, so now I have the following to help cholinergic activity: TMG, L-Methionine, ALCAR, DMAE, and I also eat 3 + 3 egg yolks per day as I'm still waiting for the lecithin to arrive.. What I'm wondering is if you could give advice on how to take them during the day?? TMG and L-Methionine along with the ALCAR and egg yolks in the morning?? thanks!!
Oh, I forgot, I also have Methyl B-12, Solgar B-Complex and Thorne Basic B-Complex, if this makes any difference..

Choline exists for 3 different reasons: to be made into acetylcholine (for memory & signalling), to be made into a phospholipid (cell membranes and neuron sheathes), and to be made into TMG (for methylation). See this chart here: http://upload.wikime..._metabolism.png for a greater explanation of its cycles. What DMAE does is inhibit the second process, which is less important for adults (more important for babies). DMAE is a competitive inhibitor for the transport of choline to be made into phosphatidylcholine and sphingomyelin, and is made into phosphatidyl-DMAE. Therefore, more choline goes to be made into acetylcholine and TMG, thus providing a stimulating effect on memory and concentration/mood.

[thedevinroy]

Devin: Well yeah but does that say that DMAE help you sleep better or just that it's still running in your system when you're waking up and therefore feel more alert?? I'm asking this as that's how I've felt sometimes when I've taken more stimulants than usual and/or taking them late at night..
The DMAE-properties you've spoken about however interest me, as it's supposed to be anti-cholinergic and thus working a bit like Memantine does for amphetamine, at the same time that it does that other thing that heightens cholinergic activity, which I didn't really get, but yeah anyway, seems great. haha

And btw, update, last night was even MORE crazy than the night before... holy crap, I've never experienced anything like that a part from when having a very high fever one time.. Thought I had lost all that imagination..
I think that the rebound effect of the dexamphetamine makes it even more worse and more psychotic.. the dreams weren't scary but there was a feeling of profound anxiety all-over.

Also, Devin!, I've just received some TMG and L-Methionine, so now I have the following to help cholinergic activity: TMG, L-Methionine, ALCAR, DMAE, and I also eat 3 + 3 egg yolks per day as I'm still waiting for the lecithin to arrive.. What I'm wondering is if you could give advice on how to take them during the day?? TMG and L-Methionine along with the ALCAR and egg yolks in the morning?? thanks!!
Oh, I forgot, I also have Methyl B-12, Solgar B-Complex and Thorne Basic B-Complex, if this makes any difference..

Also DMAE helps you wake up I think for the same reason stimulants help you wake up when taken before bed. Right, I think the stimulation effect is still on in the morning. As I tried to previously explain, DMAE competes for choline in phospholipid synthesis, and therefore, more choline is left in the blood stream to be broken down into TMG, which is one of the stimulating effects of DMAE. Some say that DMAE is a methyl taker because it is methylated in the liver to form choline, which it may be for the liver, but overall, it produces methylation via choline uptake inhibition.

Vitamin B9 and B12 help in methylation (I believe as transporters). L-Methionine is another methyl donor. Good research.

I take the lecithin 2x a day: morning and afternoon. I find if I take it to close to bed time, I wake up with dry eyes. Instead, I take fish oil at night. This may not effect everyone, but if it does, you now know how to fix it.

TMG, DMAE, and ALCAR should be taken apart (3x/day each, for a total of 9x, spaced at least 1.5 hours apart) or in a % ratio to avoid wasting your money by over saturating the transporters during absorption. 2 grams of ALCAR HCl saturates absorption, so that ends up being about 0.00834390228 moles. 100mg of DMAE (roughly 350mg of the bitartrate form) is effective (though short in duration), which is only 0.00112183083 moles, leaving 0.00722207145 moles left for ALCAR and TMG to split. Cut down the middle, that leaves 0.733892457 grams (~730mg) of ALCAR and 0.423018391 grams (~420mg) of TMG. Take the mix 6x a day, roughly 1.5 to 2.5 hours apart. To make things simple, you can round up to 750mg ALCAR and 500mg TMG with the 100mg of DMAE. I like to carry a travel bottle with supplements and just sip on it all day (mix with some lemon juice and sugar for flavor).

If you are wondering how I got those calculations, the molar mass for ALCAR, TMG, and DMAE respectively (in moles/gram) are 203.236, 117.146, and 89.14. HCl is 36.46 (used for initial total moles calculation).

Edited by devinthayer, 03 August 2011 - 02:39 AM.

[X_Danny_X]

Therefore, more choline goes to be made into acetylcholine and TMG, thus providing a stimulating effect on memory and concentration/mood.

so for higher concentrations for acetylcholine and TMG, we must avoid taking DMAE? i am looking for higher memory and concentration.

[thedevinroy]

Therefore, more choline goes to be made into acetylcholine and TMG, thus providing a stimulating effect on memory and concentration/mood.

so for higher concentrations for acetylcholine and TMG, we must avoid taking DMAE? i am looking for higher memory and concentration.

No, you got it backwards. DMAE means less phospholipids containing choline and more TMG and Acetylcholine. This gives DMAE its positive effect on memory and concentration.

http://ntp.niehs.nih...date_110002.pdf (page 63)

Levels of choline and acetylcholine in the brains were elevated 53% and 36% in pups from the DMAE supplemented group, relative to the choline-deficient pup brains.

http://ntp.niehs.nih...date_110002.pdf (page 64)

DMAE (375 µM; 33.7 µg/mL) decreased the incorporation of [14C]choline into phosphocholine, phosphatidylcholine, and sphingomyelin to 25%, 35%, and 50% of control values, respectively. Labeled betaine was threefold higher in the DMAE-treated embryos than in the control embryos.

Note that DMAE is fine for adults, but not for pregnant mothers and children. Phosphocholine, phosphatidylcholine, and sphingomyelin are important for developing children's brains. I think that is one of the reasons why it has been abandoned as an ADHD medication.

Edited by devinthayer, 03 August 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

isn't better than to take Centrophenoxine than DMAE?? so as long i use DMAE, separated from ALCAR and other noots around 1 hour apart. it should help in memory and concentration??

[thedevinroy]

isn't better than to take Centrophenoxine than DMAE?? so as long i use DMAE, separated from ALCAR and other noots around 1 hour apart. it should help in memory and concentration??

Centrophenoxine may have a slight stimulating effect, but it is mainly used to remove lipofuscin deposits. It improves memory by inhibiting Diacylglycerol Cholinephosphotransferase, thereby preventing CDP choline form becoming phosphatidylcholine. CDP choline can then be metabolized into cytidine and choline... and choline can be acetylated into acetylcholine, thereby improving memory. Choline can also be broken into TMG, thereby providing some stimulating effect, too. I'm not sure its mechanism of transport, if it will interfere with DMAE or not.

If you use DMAE and ALCAR, either don't fully dose the ALCAR (cut back to maybe 1500mg or less), or take them apart from each other. Pure choline and TMG also need to be taken apart like that.

[X_Danny_X]

i see, now do i cycle all nootropics to prevent tolerance? i usually cycle with taking them during the weekdays and not taking them during the weekends. so it is 5 days on and 2 days off. is that good to prevent tolerance or do i need more days off? methylene blue as well i do this too.

[thedevinroy]

i see, now do i cycle all nootropics to prevent tolerance? i usually cycle with taking them during the weekdays and not taking them during the weekends. so it is 5 days on and 2 days off. is that good to prevent tolerance or do i need more days off? methylene blue as well i do this too.

I wouldn't think you'd have to cycle off ALCAR and TMG because they are nutrients. DMAE is more of a drug, so that I'd take a break from as often as you can.

[X_Danny_X]

oh so i have to cycle Ritalin then. I assume then Pyritinol, Methylene Blue, Bacopa, and other nootropics like racetams I don't have to cycle off? I can take them everyday correct?