52 replies to this topic

[nupi]

From what I gather from the Methylene Blue threads the jury whether you need to cycle it is still off. Some claim it works continuously but its only very few that have actually tried it for more than a few weeks... I am still not sure whether Bacopa should be cycled, any input on that one would be highly appreciated. Maybe we should start a list with compounds and how they are best taken...

[thedevinroy]

oh so i have to cycle Ritalin then. I assume then Pyritinol, Methylene Blue, Bacopa, and other nootropics like racetams I don't have to cycle off? I can take them everyday correct?

I don't believe there are any tolerance issues with those you have mentioned. However, Bacopa regulates dopamine, so it is best taken when you can be relaxed and not concentrating on any one thing.

From what I gather from the Methylene Blue threads the jury whether you need to cycle it is still off. Some claim it works continuously but its only very few that have actually tried it for more than a few weeks... I am still not sure whether Bacopa should be cycled, any input on that one would be highly appreciated. Maybe we should start a list with compounds and how they are best taken...

From what I gather, long term use of Bacopa is effective, as is Methylene Blue. They both contain powerful antioxidant properties and anti-stress properties that make them a great candidate for a longevity formula. Personally, I take Bacopa before I go to bed because it upregulates serotonin while it downregulates dopamine, which would interfere with my normal daily activities by making ADHD-PI worse.

[X_Danny_X]

whoa, So Bacopa regulates Dopamine, this maybe the reason why i am not feeling much when taking Ritalin. I have been taking Bacopa in the morning, afternoon, and evening. thinking it will keep improving my memory.

how many pills of Bacopa do you take before bed? is good to take it with DMAE together before bed? I have been taking DMAE before bed since you posted that it helps sleep. I have problems sleeping more than 6 hours, sometimes I sleep only 5 hours. After taking DMAE though before going to bed, I wake up with energy.

[thedevinroy]

whoa, So Bacopa regulates Dopamine, this maybe the reason why i am not feeling much when taking Ritalin. I have been taking Bacopa in the morning, afternoon, and evening. thinking it will keep improving my memory.

how many pills of Bacopa do you take before bed? is good to take it with DMAE together before bed? I have been taking DMAE before bed since you posted that it helps sleep. I have problems sleeping more than 6 hours, sometimes I sleep only 5 hours. After taking DMAE though before going to bed, I wake up with energy.

Bacopa should improve memory retention, but I believe that to be more of an anti-oxidant effect. Your brain is less stressed out, so it keeps more memories. It removes toxins and kills fungus/bacteria as well as unfolds brain plaque proteins. It has an anti-anxiety effect from raising serotonin while regulating dopamine (restores levels after stress in one study and in other study lowers levels), so some people use it to relax. I found taking it throughout the day made me too dull (and gassy), but taking it at night was fine.

I take 150-300mg before bed on an empty stomach.

Yeah DMAE is good for that. You are taking lecithin or eggs, right? I think you said on another post that you eat a ton of eggs which is a really good thing while taking DMAE.

[Aladarius]

TMG, DMAE, and ALCAR should be taken apart (3x/day each, for a total of 9x, spaced at least 1.5 hours apart) or in a % ratio to avoid wasting your money by over saturating the transporters during absorption. 2 grams of ALCAR HCl saturates absorption, so that ends up being about 0.00834390228 moles. 100mg of DMAE (roughly 350mg of the bitartrate form) is effective (though short in duration), which is only 0.00112183083 moles, leaving 0.00722207145 moles left for ALCAR and TMG to split. Cut down the middle, that leaves 0.733892457 grams (~730mg) of ALCAR and 0.423018391 grams (~420mg) of TMG. Take the mix 6x a day, roughly 1.5 to 2.5 hours apart. To make things simple, you can round up to 750mg ALCAR and 500mg TMG with the 100mg of DMAE.

In order to achieve the full spectrum of benefit, would you recommend taking L-Alpha Glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha-GPC), phosphatidylserine (PS), and phosphatidylcholine (PC) with this?...and at what dosage?

[X_Danny_X]

whoa, So Bacopa regulates Dopamine, this maybe the reason why i am not feeling much when taking Ritalin. I have been taking Bacopa in the morning, afternoon, and evening. thinking it will keep improving my memory.

how many pills of Bacopa do you take before bed? is good to take it with DMAE together before bed? I have been taking DMAE before bed since you posted that it helps sleep. I have problems sleeping more than 6 hours, sometimes I sleep only 5 hours. After taking DMAE though before going to bed, I wake up with energy.

Bacopa should improve memory retention, but I believe that to be more of an anti-oxidant effect. Your brain is less stressed out, so it keeps more memories. It removes toxins and kills fungus/bacteria as well as unfolds brain plaque proteins. It has an anti-anxiety effect from raising serotonin while regulating dopamine (restores levels after stress in one study and in other study lowers levels), so some people use it to relax. I found taking it throughout the day made me too dull (and gassy), but taking it at night was fine.

I take 150-300mg before bed on an empty stomach.

Yeah DMAE is good for that. You are taking lecithin or eggs, right? I think you said on another post that you eat a ton of eggs which is a really good thing while taking DMAE.

So Bacopa doesn't actually improve memory, it is a prevention mechanism, keeping what you got and fighting off things that can reduce it. i thought it actually helps improve it to a new level, which is what i am looking for. it is good for anti aging, but is it worth taking it while i am young?

I am 33 years old and decided to go back to college again to change my way of living while i am working.

Are all other herbs like Bacopa? like Ashawanda, Shankhpushpi others to help keep what you got?

I am taking eggs yes, I have to reduce since I am broke. I just eat like 6 day right now. Should I take eggs and DMAE at the same time or it really doesn't matter???

Edited by X_Danny_X, 07 August 2011 - 03:14 AM.

[thedevinroy]

whoa, So Bacopa regulates Dopamine, this maybe the reason why i am not feeling much when taking Ritalin. I have been taking Bacopa in the morning, afternoon, and evening. thinking it will keep improving my memory.

how many pills of Bacopa do you take before bed? is good to take it with DMAE together before bed? I have been taking DMAE before bed since you posted that it helps sleep. I have problems sleeping more than 6 hours, sometimes I sleep only 5 hours. After taking DMAE though before going to bed, I wake up with energy.

Bacopa should improve memory retention, but I believe that to be more of an anti-oxidant effect. Your brain is less stressed out, so it keeps more memories. It removes toxins and kills fungus/bacteria as well as unfolds brain plaque proteins. It has an anti-anxiety effect from raising serotonin while regulating dopamine (restores levels after stress in one study and in other study lowers levels), so some people use it to relax. I found taking it throughout the day made me too dull (and gassy), but taking it at night was fine.

I take 150-300mg before bed on an empty stomach.

Yeah DMAE is good for that. You are taking lecithin or eggs, right? I think you said on another post that you eat a ton of eggs which is a really good thing while taking DMAE.

So Bacopa doesn't actually improve memory, it is a prevention mechanism, keeping what you got and fighting off things that can reduce it. i thought it actually helps improve it to a new level, which is what i am looking for. it is good for anti aging, but is it worth taking it while i am young?

I am 33 years old and decided to go back to college again to change my way of living while i am working.

Are all other herbs like Bacopa? like Ashawanda, Shankhpushpi others to help keep what you got?

I am taking eggs yes, I have to reduce since I am broke. I just eat like 6 day right now. Should I take eggs and DMAE at the same time or it really doesn't matter???

Bacopa does improve memory retention, which is part of memory - the long term part. My theory as to why it helps with primarily retention is that Bacopa helps with anxiety (raises serotonin, stabilizes dopamine) and brain health (raises body's natural defenses, cleans up misfolded proteins), thereby lowering the effects of stress on the brain and allowing the brain to work properly and focus on making long term memories. Thus, it will work in anyone, justifying it as a nootropic. It is a good supplement, especially for those with anxiety, but not during the day if you suffer from lack of focus (and other ADHD symptoms). Therefore, taking at night helps someone with ADHD calm down from the day and still helps with brain health to allow memories to form properly during the night where transition into long-term memories often happens.

The herbs you have mentioned may also provide anxiety relief as well as antioxidants. However they also have their own features. Ashwagandha helps with rebuilding and strengthening nerves. Shankpushpi helps with short term memory. Bacopa is interesting because it is antimicrobial and such a powerful antioxidant that it helps clean up plaque that causes Alzheimer's.

Taking eggs and DMAE at the same or different times will not matter. The lipids in eggs are absorbed differently than DMAE. Whatever you eat for a phoshpatidylcholine source, make sure you consume over 550mg of choline (which is in the form of phosphatidylcholine). For instance, eggs have 113mg of choline, so you would need at least 5 eggs if all you ate was eggs for choline sources.

From Wikipedia:

Animal and plant foods Choline (mg)
5 ounces (142 g) raw beef liver 473
Large hardboiled egg 113
Half a pound (227 g) cod fish 190
Half a pound of chicken 149
Quart of milk, 1% fat 173
A tablespoon (8 g) soy lecithin 250
A pound (454 grams) of cauliflower 177
A pound of spinach 113
A cup of wheat germ 202
Two cups (0.47 liters) firm tofu 142
Two cups of cooked kidney beans 108
A cup of uncooked quinoa 119
A cup of uncooked amaranth 135
A grapefruit 19
3 cups (710 cc) cooked brown rice 54
A cup (146 g) of peanuts 77
A cup (143 g) of almonds 74

Edited by devinthayer, 07 August 2011 - 03:08 PM.

[thedevinroy]

TMG, DMAE, and ALCAR should be taken apart (3x/day each, for a total of 9x, spaced at least 1.5 hours apart) or in a % ratio to avoid wasting your money by over saturating the transporters during absorption. 2 grams of ALCAR HCl saturates absorption, so that ends up being about 0.00834390228 moles. 100mg of DMAE (roughly 350mg of the bitartrate form) is effective (though short in duration), which is only 0.00112183083 moles, leaving 0.00722207145 moles left for ALCAR and TMG to split. Cut down the middle, that leaves 0.733892457 grams (~730mg) of ALCAR and 0.423018391 grams (~420mg) of TMG. Take the mix 6x a day, roughly 1.5 to 2.5 hours apart. To make things simple, you can round up to 750mg ALCAR and 500mg TMG with the 100mg of DMAE.

In order to achieve the full spectrum of benefit, would you recommend taking L-Alpha Glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha-GPC), phosphatidylserine (PS), and phosphatidylcholine (PC) with this?...and at what dosage?

Alpha-GPC is quite a powerful nootropic. Choline is depleted throughout the years as it is constantly undergoing attack by free radicals. Supplementation with Alpha-GPC will help reduce the risk for neurodegenerative diseases like Multiple Sclerosis. The reason why I say that is because snuff users have on average a 20% less chance of developing Multiple Sclerosis (http://www.reuters.c...E57U5JX20090831) which is likely do to the nicotine content. Nicotine is a (partial?) agonist of certain acetylcholine receptors, and thus frees the acetylcholine to be broken down into choline, which can then be made into phosphatidylcholine. Thus, supplementation with choline from Alpha-GPC will also help repair membranes.

The same goes for PS and PC - both of those are actually directly found in cell membranes and myelin, specifically. In fact, I believe that PC (and possibly PS) will induce remyelination in damaged myelin, thus reversing the effects of Multiple Sclerosis to some extent (does not directly treat the citrullinated proteins that accumulate) as well as treating the inflammation. Your body needs PC, approximately 3.8 grams a day.

To get a better answer to your question, read the label for better suggestions. As long as you get 550mg of choline a day, whether from Alpha-GPC (50% choline, 1100mg if sole cource) or PC (14% choline, 3.8g if sole source). I don't know the recommended amount of PS... probably 400mg, the amount given to athletes to speed recovery time, would be enough. I've listed the dietary sources below.

From Wiki:

Food PS Content in mg/100 g
Bovine brain 713
Atlantic mackerel 480
Chicken heart 414
Atlantic herring 360
Eel 335
Offal (average value) 305
Pig's spleen 239
Pig's kidney 218
Tuna 194
Chicken leg, with skin, without bone 134
Chicken liver 123
White beans 107
Soft-shell clam 87
Chicken breast, with skin 85
Mullet 76
Veal 72
Beef 69
Pork 57
Pig's liver 50
Turkey leg, without skin or bone 50
Turkey breast without skin 45
Crayfish 40
Cuttlefish 31
Atlantic cod 28
Anchovy 25
Whole grain barley 20
European hake 17
European pilchard (sardine) 16
Trout 14
Soy lecithin 10-20
Rice (unpolished) 3
Carrot 2
Ewe's Milk 2
Cow's Milk (whole, 3.5% fat) 1
Potato 1

Edited by devinthayer, 07 August 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Aladarius]

I appreciate your insight...What are your thoughts on this regime?

Taken together, 3x/day

DMAE 100mg ( 300mg/day)
ALCAR 500mg (1500mg/day)
TMG 750mg (2250mg/day)
SAM-e 400mg (1200mg/day)
A-GPC 300mg ( 900mg/day)
PC 420mg (1260mg/day)

Plus...

PS 400mg 1x/day, taken with the others.

[caveat]

Got my hands on some piracetam, thought i'd give it a try.
Day 1: morning empty stomach 800mg, lunch 800mg. No effect.
Day 2: morning 800mg. No effect.
Day 3: morning 400mg, lunch 400mg. No effect.

By no effect i mean no noticeable increase in cognitive function.

My thoughts on this:
1.My cognitive function is 'good' already, therefore i get no noticeable improvement.
2.Missing other supplements which take part in piracetam's mechanism of action.
3.Wrong dosage.

I changed the dosage on day 3, for day 4 i'm going for 1600mg or 200mg(braking the pill into 4 peaces might be a challenge).

Idea about finding the right dosage: piracetam's halftime is around 5 hours. It gets into the bloodstream 30-60 min after ingestion. What if one would take 400mg every 45 min, would it be as effective as taking one larger dosage ?
I mean 400+400+400+400+400 every 45 mins, that's 2g in almost 4 hours, vs 2000mg on one intake.
The purpose of this would be to find the best dosage. The doses might be increased 400 to 800 and 2000 to 4000.

[thedevinroy]

Good stack you had. I wonder if that much SAMe is really necessary with that much TMG and DMAE ... but if you notice a positive effect, go right ahead, all power to ya.
Also is it 100mg of pure DMAE or is 100mg of bitartate?

Got my hands on some piracetam, thought i'd give it a try.
Day 1: morning empty stomach 800mg, lunch 800mg. No effect.
Day 2: morning 800mg. No effect.
Day 3: morning 400mg, lunch 400mg. No effect.

By no effect i mean no noticeable increase in cognitive function.

My thoughts on this:
1.My cognitive function is 'good' already, therefore i get no noticeable improvement.
2.Missing other supplements which take part in piracetam's mechanism of action.
3.Wrong dosage.

I changed the dosage on day 3, for day 4 i'm going for 1600mg or 200mg(braking the pill into 4 peaces might be a challenge).

Idea about finding the right dosage: piracetam's halftime is around 5 hours. It gets into the bloodstream 30-60 min after ingestion. What if one would take 400mg every 45 min, would it be as effective as taking one larger dosage ?
I mean 400+400+400+400+400 every 45 mins, that's 2g in almost 4 hours, vs 2000mg on one intake.
The purpose of this would be to find the best dosage. The doses might be increased 400 to 800 and 2000 to 4000.

Here's what I did with Pramiracetam. I found I got the best effects from a 200mg-400mg range. The half life is about 6 hours (half of it will be gone in 6 hours). First thing in the morning, I took 400mg. After each 6 hours, I would take 200mg to maintain that level in my blood stream.

Since Piracetam is 5 hours, taking 400mg every 45min would give 1700mg by the last dose, so yeah it would almost be the same as taking 2g straight. Try whatever works for you. Based on your stack, there's nothing that would interact with Piracetam. Some people take 10 grams! I think that's a little excessive...might as well be food at that dose... but whatever works I guess.

[Aladarius]

Good stack you had. I wonder if that much SAMe is really necessary with that much TMG and DMAE ... but if you notice a positive effect, go right ahead, all power to ya.

Actually, up until now I've been taking:

DMAE 100mg 1x/day ( 100mg/day)
ALCAR 500mg 2x/day (1000mg/day)
TMG (none)
SAM-e 800mg 2x/day (1600mg/day)
A-GPC 300mg 2x/day ( 600mg/day)
PC 420mg 3x/day (1260mg/day)
PS 400mg 1x/day, ( 400mg/day)

My goal is to optimize cholinergic intake, in order to achieve maximum results from the three aspects without being wasteful...I am interested in your thoughts on this before proceeding with this new regimen:

Taken together, 3x/day

DMAE 100mg ( 300mg/day)
ALCAR 500mg (1500mg/day)
TMG 750mg (2250mg/day)
SAM-e 400mg (1200mg/day)
A-GPC 300mg ( 900mg/day)
PC 420mg (1260mg/day)

Plus...

PS 400mg 1x/day, taken with the others.

Additionally, I have been considering adding Tianeptine (Stablon) 12.5mg 3x/day to the mix, as well...Thoughts?

Also is it 100mg of pure DMAE or is 100mg of bitartate?

It's 100mg of 2-Dimethylaminoethanol.

Edited by Aladarius, 10 August 2011 - 08:30 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Actually, up until now I've been taking:

DMAE 100mg 1x/day ( 100mg/day)
ALCAR 500mg 2x/day (1000mg/day)
TMG (none)
SAM-e 800mg 2x/day (1600mg/day)
A-GPC 300mg 2x/day ( 600mg/day)
PC 420mg 3x/day (1260mg/day)
PS 400mg 1x/day, ( 400mg/day)

My goal is to optimize cholinergic intake, in order to achieve maximum results from the three aspects without being wasteful...

Cool. Good goal. Just make sure you take Vitamin B9 with all the SAMe (or TMG or choline) because without folic acid (B9), methyl donors will just sort of sit there (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7694037). The only thing I'd change is to take more PC than 400mg/day. For each 100mg of DMAE, you should take at least 853mg of PC. [Molecular weight of DMAE is 89.14g/mol and Phosphatidylcholine's average molecular weight is 760.09g/mol. Math: (0.100 / 89.14) * 760.09 = 0.852692394] This is assuming that each DMAE molecule prevents one phosphatidylcholine molecule from forming, thus needing supplementation equal to or greater than what is lost. As a benefit, any extra PC may spur remyelination of axons.

I am interested in your thoughts on this before proceeding with this new regimen:

Taken together, 3x/day

DMAE 100mg ( 300mg/day)
ALCAR 500mg (1500mg/day)
TMG 750mg (2250mg/day)
SAM-e 400mg (1200mg/day)
A-GPC 300mg ( 900mg/day)
PC 420mg (1260mg/day)

Plus...

PS 400mg 1x/day, taken with the others.

Additionally, I have been considering adding Tianeptine (Stablon) 12.5mg 3x/day to the mix, as well...Thoughts?

Wow... I can only imagine what that would do to me. Like I said, make sure you have enough folate (B9). If it all works the best that way, then go for it.

Again, that might not be enough PC per DMAE... I only say "might" because some Alpha-GPC and natural dietary choline will turn into PC, especially mixed with the PS. There's no way to really know unless you are taking normal brain scans and tracking myelin degradation/growth. Also keep in mind that some dietary PC is broken down and used for parts, so to speak. On the other hand, too much of PC, as with anything, is bad. It can cause fatty build up in the arteries if you don't balance your fat intake correctly. Extra fish/krill/algea oil (primarily DHA) will help with circulatory health. As a rule of thumb, for each gram of PC, take a third of gram or more of fish oil to balance your Omega3-6-9 in your diet.

I looked up Tianeptine, and I see no interactions present... it is definitely and interesting drug... balances serotonin in a much more effective method than SSRI's.

If that doesn't work for you, you should consider adding a racetam and other things to increase brain metabolism. If you experience fog at that level of choline supplementation, it is probably due to lack of glutamate, glucose, or oxygen and not choline, TMG/DMG/SAMe (B9 too, assuming you take that), or acetate. Finally, if that doesn't work for you, consider the nootropic herbs.

It's 100mg of 2-Dimethylaminoethanol.

That's the pure stuff. Cool, just making sure you were getting the full effect. DMAE bitartate has about 3x less DMAE than pure DMAE, so 100mg of the bitartrate form might not feel like anything.

[Nootr]

What is pure DMAE? Is it pills?

[caveat]

Been taking piracetam for more than 20 days. No effect.
Tried 400-1600 dosages. Didn't follow any strict regiment - there had been few 2 day skips, on others the dosages were quite random.

Used ~2g L-Glutamine for a few days, no improvement.

These also doesn't seem to have any effect:
DMAE 200-600mg
ALCAR 300-600mg
L-Theanine 200-400mg

Although were was one evening, then after downing a mix of Piracetam/DMAE/ALCAR i've felt somewhat of easier creative thinking.

One more thing to try is increase all dosages. However i don't like the idea of taking 'mega-dosages'.
I'm quite non-responsive to stimulants - caffeine in particular. I can - literally - drink a cup of coffee before going to bed and have no problem falling asleep. Although i feel a little increase in energy after 1 cup - that's about 80mg caffeine - if my thoughts are 'on the same track' e.g. working out. I have first heard of 'caffeine jitters' then started reading about nootropics. Never had anything remotely similar even after amount drinking coffee equivalent to 250-300mg of caffeine.

The quality of the piracetam shouldn't be a problem - used 'Nootropil' (prescription meds).

[spider]

What is pure DMAE? Is it pills?

'DMAE bitartate' minus 'bitartate'.

[zodiac]

Again, that might not be enough PC per DMAE... I only say "might" because some Alpha-GPC and natural dietary choline will turn into PC, especially mixed with the PS. There's no way to really know unless you are taking normal brain scans and tracking myelin degradation/growth. Also keep in mind that some dietary PC is broken down and used for parts, so to speak. On the other hand, too much of PC, as with anything, is bad. It can cause fatty build up in the arteries if you don't balance your fat intake correctly. Extra fish/krill/algea oil (primarily DHA) will help with circulatory health. As a rule of thumb, for each gram of PC, take a third of gram or more of fish oil to balance your Omega3-6-9 in your diet.

Thanks, I see some helpful insights and commentary on the thread, but... just reading some of you guys' ideas -- there is way too much cholinergic support in these stacks.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why would one ever need so, so much ACh enhancement? ;P Especially given that the supposed myelination benefits etc. of all the phospholipid/choline supplementation are indeed just "maybes" and some are based on rather inconclusive research.


Much of all the supposed cognitive benefits derived over long-term from some of these are also as such... not to mention, over-pronounced cholinergic function will impair dopaminergic function quite profoundly. This is what leads to brain fog with choline supplementation, more often than not. ACh does NOT mean "sharp."

If that doesn't work for you, you should consider adding a racetam and other things to increase brain metabolism. If you experience fog at that level of choline supplementation, it is probably due to lack of glutamate, glucose, or oxygen and not choline, TMG/DMG/SAMe (B9 too, assuming you take that), or acetate. Finally, if that doesn't work for you, consider the nootropic herbs.

Again as I mentioned about the brain fog above, you have to keep it in balance with the catecholamines. Piracetam does this, true, but it indeed doesn't work at all for some, and offers the wrong type of activation for others (increased LC NE uptake, poor performance and possibly increased irritability/hyperactivity in things such as ADHD). However, I would suggest to try it at 3-4g dosages two to three times a day before being fore sure that you are either a non-responder or don't need it. The stuff is very, very subtle... but with all this choline supplementation you guys are speaking of, it would probably have way too much of an inhibitory effect, as it upregulates ACh. Which is why I'd again caution against overdoing things in this department (though I guess if that's what works for ya, all the better).

Agreed on the Omega3's, though... they are very helpful with piracetam, as well - more noticeably at moderate dosages or higher (3g Fish Oil + 4g Piracetam, for example... try it sometime, it is very safe at that dosage, yet can provide a very balanced sense of well-being and motivation)... though again, everyone is very different and if you don't like the effect, move on! Hehe.

I looked up Tianeptine, and I see no interactions present... it is definitely and interesting drug... balances serotonin in a much more effective method than SSRI's.

Tianeptine has quite a complicated MOA... wouldn't go so far as to say it's going to be helpful for anything besides a slight mood lift; and, there have been anecdotes about tolerance setting in -- even some withdrawal horror stories... unexpectedly (given how mild-mannered it is). Its worst aspect by far, though, is its short duration. As for interactions with all this ACh muskcauce, you are correct. : P

Also...

oh so i have to cycle Ritalin then. I assume then Pyritinol, Methylene Blue, Bacopa, and other nootropics like racetams I don't have to cycle off? I can take them everyday correct?

Really would advise you not to stack all this shit with ritalin or amphetamines, etc. man. Unless you really know what you're doing -- you're more than likely to screw up the effects of the medication or ramp up tolerance without realizing it. Simply "which ones to cycle or not" is not an answer. Even taking piracetam + glutamatergics like amphetamine, for example... it has a great upregulating effect (increases response to beneficial effects of amphetamines), yet tends to greatly diminish the duration of each dose. Mixed bag.


Hope that helps a bit. Sorry if I left anything out.
Oh, and @ the title of the thread.. PEA is trash. ;p


Cheers,
-Z

Edited by zodiac, 05 October 2011 - 08:20 PM.

[thedevinroy]

not to mention, over-pronounced cholinergic function will impair dopaminergic function quite profoundly. This is what leads to brain fog with choline supplementation, more often than not. ACh does NOT mean "sharp."

Please explain the interaction.

As far as I can tell this interaction between systems has to do with methylation cycles. It bridges many different neurotransmitter systems... glutamate, choline, dopamine, serotonin, citric acid cycle, uridine cycle, SAMe cycle, etc. http://www.knowyourg...s/diagram-1.jpg TMG (from choline) is smack in the middle of the methionine-homocysteine cycle.

Edited by devinthayer, 05 October 2011 - 09:27 PM.

[protoject]

I wanted to make a quick note here referencing to an earlier part of this thread.
I find taking DMAE made me very emotionally labile , and destroyed my sleep.
I found ALCAR had some stimulating effect, was especially good for working out, and sometimes it would make me happier and raise my body temperature. Overall I almost always crashed on it, and it really messed with my sleep and also aggravated an underlying schizophrenia [positive and neg.] and anxiety. I found a study online that ALCAR actually had precipitated schizophrenic symptoms in someone possibly due to it increasing dopamine output in a particular part of the brain. I'll link to this once i find it again though I'm betting you could find it on google or pubmed.

Choline bitartrate really makes me extremely fuzzy minded in a bad way. It makes me not want to talk to people. However whatever I do say seems to be incredibly logical. I performed very well at work- very effectively and efficiently. I really didn't want to talk to anyone while on choline even though that's what my job entailed.. my calls were done very quickly but my quality scores were through the roof.

CDP choline makes my long term and short term memory work better, and it also increases my motivation and kind of makes me more focused. Although I am still very much "all over the place", it allows me to spin through more chaos without getting tired, and to grab things and make a bit more order out of this chaos. Most effective choline sup so far. Also seemed that I was quite emotionally stable on citicoline, though whether that was based on citicoline or not will be shown in future trials. The only downsides is that it gave me muscle tension ,a bit of gastrointestinal distress, and I think it can disrupt sleep but I didnt take it for that long.

Im currently trying some soy based Phosphatidylcholine that I'll report back about eventually. I haven't tried alpha GPC yet either. Im thinking of trying a DHA conjugated posphatidylserine and the alpha GPC soon.

TMG- hmmm... I'm not sure what to think of this. I'm going to have to give it another whirl, and with other supplements that I'm already very comfortable and familiar with, or , by itself. I mean when I was taking citicoline with other supplements I didnt notice the same effect as when i didnt , because side effects from the other supplements were getting in the way. Anyway. with TMG it would cause my angry emotions to come out way more than usual, and I felt like yelling at people or going to their house and breaking their doors down. I'm overly nice most of the time and I remember my roomate was particularly pissing me off and I ended up having some kind of emotional breakdown at work. Not crying or anything like that. I started shaking and was super angry and then my body went numb and i felt like i crashed and couldnt think. It was wierd mentally and physically. Keep in mind this sort of thing never happens to me unless there's a directly identifiable cause like taking a specific supplement or drug. It did seem to enhance my mental and physical energy, but it's like it came out the wrong avenue or like some other problem in me wasn't fixed. I dont know.! Anyway, overall, I think it's good for lowering homocysteine levels especially if you're the type of person who eats double burgers every day. I'm pretty sure it rasises plasma cholesterol but who gives a flying donkey.

I know we're on the topic of choline supps but since there's been mention of theanine in this thread I wanted to say that I had mixed results with theanine. I used to take it in grams and grams per day, usually in the morning or twice per day. It had a mood brightening and antidepressant effect on many days and really enhanced my libido... I used to bang this chick for like 5 hours every weekend without any problems. I used to have this problem where I always had to go pee when I was having sex and that problem disappeared.. But it also seemed to cause anxiety in the overall, and actually it destroyed my sleep quite a bit rather than helping it. It acted kind of like a natural stimulant believe it or not. But it also kind of made me dopey.

SAM-E- makes me extremely tired and inhibited, whether I'm able to sleep or not I just want to go to bed. It's like it's shutting up my nerves. Kills appetite, kills my mind. Cant think properly on it.

Personally I think people who suspect "dopamine-based" mood or cognitive problems, should not take ALCAR or THEANINE on a consistent basis. That's just my opinion, maybe it's not that important, unless you happen to be experiencing those yourself and reading my post right now, hopefully it's confirming.

conclusion: I hate DMAE- it's like a bad drug to me, I like ALCAR for workouts but only infrequently as it seems to build up and make me feel like im on drugs, I think citicoline is amazing.

Edited by protoject, 26 October 2011 - 10:49 PM.

[health_nutty]

I find DMAE stimulating and it ruins my sleep if I take it before bed.

The most effective way to increase ACh for me is to combine ALCAR and CDP-choline. The two together have crazy synergy. The only time I have felt ACh headaches is from 500mg of CDP Choline and 2g of ALCAR (spread throughout the day!). I now take 1.5g of ALCAR and 250mg of of CDP Choline. The CDP I take with breakfast and ALCAR is spread throughout the day (with the last dose at 5).

Too much Bacopa ruins my engergy the next day. 1g of bacopin 20% extract the night before is terrible to the point caffeine is almost completely ineffective. 500mg is noticable. I'm playing with 200mg now

[thedevinroy]

I find DMAE stimulating and it ruins my sleep if I take it before bed.

The most effective way to increase ACh for me is to combine ALCAR and CDP-choline. The two together have crazy synergy. The only time I have felt ACh headaches is from 500mg of CDP Choline and 2g of ALCAR (spread throughout the day!). I now take 1.5g of ALCAR and 250mg of of CDP Choline. The CDP I take with breakfast and ALCAR is spread throughout the day (with the last dose at 5).

Too much Bacopa ruins my engergy the next day. 1g of bacopin 20% extract the night before is terrible to the point caffeine is almost completely ineffective. 500mg is noticable. I'm playing with 200mg now

500mg Bacopa 20% made me a little sluggish the next day. Didn't notice anything from 200mg the next day, taken at night.

[thedevinroy]

I wanted to make a quick note here referencing to an earlier part of this thread.
I find taking DMAE made me very emotionally labile , and destroyed my sleep.
I found ALCAR had some stimulating effect, was especially good for working out, and sometimes it would make me happier and raise my body temperature. Overall I almost always crashed on it, and it really messed with my sleep and also aggravated an underlying schizophrenia [positive and neg.] and anxiety. I found a study online that ALCAR actually had precipitated schizophrenic symptoms in someone possibly due to it increasing dopamine output in a particular part of the brain. I'll link to this once i find it again though I'm betting you could find it on google or pubmed.

Choline bitartrate really makes me extremely fuzzy minded in a bad way. It makes me not want to talk to people. However whatever I do say seems to be incredibly logical. I performed very well at work- very effectively and efficiently. I really didn't want to talk to anyone while on choline even though that's what my job entailed.. my calls were done very quickly but my quality scores were through the roof.

CDP choline makes my long term and short term memory work better, and it also increases my motivation and kind of makes me more focused. Although I am still very much "all over the place", it allows me to spin through more chaos without getting tired, and to grab things and make a bit more order out of this chaos. Most effective choline sup so far. Also seemed that I was quite emotionally stable on citicoline, though whether that was based on citicoline or not will be shown in future trials. The only downsides is that it gave me muscle tension ,a bit of gastrointestinal distress, and I think it can disrupt sleep but I didnt take it for that long.

Im currently trying some soy based Phosphatidylcholine that I'll report back about eventually. I haven't tried alpha GPC yet either. Im thinking of trying a DHA conjugated posphatidylserine and the alpha GPC soon.

TMG- hmmm... I'm not sure what to think of this. I'm going to have to give it another whirl, and with other supplements that I'm already very comfortable and familiar with, or , by itself. I mean when I was taking citicoline with other supplements I didnt notice the same effect as when i didnt , because side effects from the other supplements were getting in the way. Anyway. with TMG it would cause my angry emotions to come out way more than usual, and I felt like yelling at people or going to their house and breaking their doors down. I'm overly nice most of the time and I remember my roomate was particularly pissing me off and I ended up having some kind of emotional breakdown at work. Not crying or anything like that. I started shaking and was super angry and then my body went numb and i felt like i crashed and couldnt think. It was wierd mentally and physically. Keep in mind this sort of thing never happens to me unless there's a directly identifiable cause like taking a specific supplement or drug. It did seem to enhance my mental and physical energy, but it's like it came out the wrong avenue or like some other problem in me wasn't fixed. I dont know.! Anyway, overall, I think it's good for lowering homocysteine levels especially if you're the type of person who eats double burgers every day. I'm pretty sure it rasises plasma cholesterol but who gives a flying donkey.

I know we're on the topic of choline supps but since there's been mention of theanine in this thread I wanted to say that I had mixed results with theanine. I used to take it in grams and grams per day, usually in the morning or twice per day. It had a mood brightening and antidepressant effect on many days and really enhanced my libido... I used to bang this chick for like 5 hours every weekend without any problems. I used to have this problem where I always had to go pee when I was having sex and that problem disappeared.. But it also seemed to cause anxiety in the overall, and actually it destroyed my sleep quite a bit rather than helping it. It acted kind of like a natural stimulant believe it or not. But it also kind of made me dopey.

SAM-E- makes me extremely tired and inhibited, whether I'm able to sleep or not I just want to go to bed. It's like it's shutting up my nerves. Kills appetite, kills my mind. Cant think properly on it.

Personally I think people who suspect "dopamine-based" mood or cognitive problems, should not take ALCAR or THEANINE on a consistent basis. That's just my opinion, maybe it's not that important, unless you happen to be experiencing those yourself and reading my post right now, hopefully it's confirming.

conclusion: I hate DMAE- it's like a bad drug to me, I like ALCAR for workouts but only infrequently as it seems to build up and make me feel like im on drugs, I think citicoline is amazing.

Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Very detailed.

[stablemind]

Actually DMAE does inhibit choline uptake (on phosphatidylcholine synthesis... see this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11460263 ... and this thread: http://www.longecity...uptake-by-dmae/), thus elevating blood levels of choline. To say it does not effect choline would not be true, but to say it doesn't directly affect brain ACh levels would be correct. Acetylation is a limiting factor from choline's conversion to Acetylcholine, so ALCAR supplementation would be beneficial for acetylation and TMG for methylation. On top of that, you should consider supplementing with phosphatidylcholine because DMAE lowers its synthesis (see links above). Thus, stacking with DMAE, ALCAR, TMG, and phosphatidylcholine (like in lecithin) will give you all the effects of a healthy cholinergic system. If you are taking something that increases choline uptake like Piracetam (and other racetams), then additional choline like Alpha GPC and CDP Choline may help to achieve that same level in the brain.

Ain't DMAE a bitch? You love it, but its such a handful.

Alpha GPC is not more expensive. It's roughly the same (at least with NootraBioLabs). Some prefer it because it has more choline per gram, while some prefer citicoline (CDP Choline) because it also helps in phosphotidylcholine (because it is an intermediate).

Choline Bitartrate does elevated brain choline to some degree, but has limited effectiveness permeating the blood brain barrier in comparison to citicoline and Alpha-GPC.

ALCAR is a better supplement, in my opinion, too. But as with increased acetylcholine, there will be a decrease in the protective phospholipid, phosphatidylcholine, used in membranes. Thus, ALCAR is also incomplete and should be used with a choline supplement.

Caffeine as a nootropic is highly debated. It really depends on your experience. Sometimes it makes you feel more focused, but the energetic focus subsides to an energetic distract-able state.

Running is much more nootropic-friendly.

Uridine should be a good supplement to co-stack then since it enhances phosphatidylcholine synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15939540

Uridine, a normal plasma constituent, can be converted to cytidine triphosphate in PC12 [corrected] cells and intact brain, and has been shown to produce a resulting increase in phosphatidylcholine synthesis.

I'm going to test this out next week.