67 replies to this topic

[nowayout]

Vitamin D makes me feel like crap too. Not everyone needs to be as high as the recommendations say. After all, remember that most medical recommendation are based on calculating average responses from scatter graphs, so a very significant number of people have a non-standard response to almost any substance, probably due to genetic variability.

If something makes you feel like crap, it probably means that it is harming you, so relax, stop taking it, and don't worry about it.

[chipdouglas]

Likewise, I've found taking 1000 IU/day D3 makes me feel like crap i.e. depressed.

[hav]

This study finds a strong correlation between vitamin D deficiency and depression but also finds very little effect on depression by treating those deficient with only vitamin D3:

Effect of vitamin D supplement on depression scores in people with low levels of serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D: nested case-control study and randomised clinical trial.

METHOD:
Participants with low 25(OH)D levels were randomised to either placebo or 40 000 IU vitamin D(3) per week for 6 months. Individuals with high serum 25(OH)D levels were used as nested controls. Depressive symptoms were evaluated with the Beck Depression Inventory, Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale, Seasonal Pattern Assessment Scale and Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale. The study was registered at ClinicalTrials.gov (NCT00960232).
RESULTS:
Participants with low 25(OH)D levels (n = 230) at baseline were more depressed (P<0.05) than participants with high 25(OH)D levels (n = 114). In the intervention study no significant effect of high-dose vitamin D was found on depressive symptom scores when compared with placebo.
CONCLUSIONS:
Low levels of serum 25(OH)D are associated with depressive symptoms, but no effect was found with vitamin D supplementation.

If your D levels are critically low and don't respond to moderate supplementing, there might be a D3 metaboism related reason. Like magnesium deficiency, which is implicated with difficulty metabolizing vitamin D. And coincidentally is also highly correlated with depression which this meta-study found does respond to magnesium supplementing.

Howard

[rwac]

If you can't supplement D3 without feeling like crap, perhaps it would be worthwhile to test for 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D
and PTH (calcium levels might be indicative too)

High levels of PTH can increase conversion of 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D, possibly your levels of the active hormone are comparatively high.

[Galaxyshock]

Vitamin d also increases tyrosine hydroxylase by a few hundred percent. So if you feel bad with increased dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline, this might be the cause.

This is interesting, because every time I've tried to increase my dopamine through supplementation (to fight anhedonia, get my motivation up) I also end up feeling like crap.

If you have anhedonia, you often end up increasing tonic dopamine which inhibits phasic dopamine and thus only worsens anhedonia.

[RJ100]

Vitamin d also increases tyrosine hydroxylase by a few hundred percent. So if you feel bad with increased dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline, this might be the cause.

This is interesting, because every time I've tried to increase my dopamine through supplementation (to fight anhedonia, get my motivation up) I also end up feeling like crap.

If you have anhedonia, you often end up increasing tonic dopamine which inhibits phasic dopamine and thus only worsens anhedonia.

"Tonic" dopamine? No idea what that is.. I have some reading to do.

Edit : Ok got it - tonic is sustained or “background” dopamine release

Edited by RJ100, 08 March 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[nowayout]

Vitamin d also increases tyrosine hydroxylase by a few hundred percent. So if you feel bad with increased dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline, this might be the cause.

This is interesting, because every time I've tried to increase my dopamine through supplementation (to fight anhedonia, get my motivation up) I also end up feeling like crap.

If you have anhedonia, you often end up increasing tonic dopamine which inhibits phasic dopamine and thus only worsens anhedonia.

Is this speculation or are there studies? (As far as I am aware, there are none.)

[penisbreath]

i'm the same, though vitamin d generally increases anxiety rather than directly making me feel depressed. it's a pain because my levels are chronically low.

[nowayout]

Vitamin d also increases tyrosine hydroxylase by a few hundred percent. So if you feel bad with increased dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline, this might be the cause.

This is interesting, because every time I've tried to increase my dopamine through supplementation (to fight anhedonia, get my motivation up) I also end up feeling like crap.

If you have anhedonia, you often end up increasing tonic dopamine which inhibits phasic dopamine and thus only worsens anhedonia.

Is this speculation or are there studies? (As far as I am aware, there are none.)

It makes a lot of sense, though, since tolerance to tonic (background) dopamine levels occurs very, very quickly. Even tolerance to phasic dopamine occurs fast, as many drug users can attest.

Unfortunately, people seem to have a set point for happiness (and there are studies confirming that), meaning any increases in average brain dopamine are probably quickly counteracted by compensating mechanisms. But this is again pretty much speculation.

[FeelsNumbMan]

Vitamin d also increases tyrosine hydroxylase by a few hundred percent. So if you feel bad with increased dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline, this might be the cause.

This is interesting, because every time I've tried to increase my dopamine through supplementation (to fight anhedonia, get my motivation up) I also end up feeling like crap.

If you have anhedonia, you often end up increasing tonic dopamine which inhibits phasic dopamine and thus only worsens anhedonia.

So what would be the best way to deal with it?

[bugme]

Add beta-carotene (pro vitamin A) to offset any excess of D3 and to not worry about D3 overdose... I would take 10.000 iu of beta-carotene... I don´t recommend the popular 25.000 iu dosage that most brands offer...

[filo74]

Remember that Vitamin D must be taken at night prior to bed. It will make you drowsy if taken during any other time of day

[chipdouglas]

Remember that Vitamin D must be taken at night prior to bed. It will make you drowsy if taken during any other time of day

I've been having D3 during the daytime and I've noticed the associated drowsiness you speak of above. So, what you wrote makes sense to me, but may I ask you where you got that it's a «must» for it to be taken at bedtime ?

[timar]

Remember that Vitamin D must be taken at night prior to bed. It will make you drowsy if taken during any other time of day

This in complete nonsense. Sometimes I have the impression that this forum is full of hypochondriacs who suffer from all kinds of placebo responses...

[bgs4669]

seriously try to take a lunch break and go outside for 15-20 minutes each day...plus eat mushrooms and fatty fish like cod, salmon and so forth...then after doing that for a few months check out how things are, if still low maybe think about the supps then.

[SeekingSerenity]

Fish oils, Krill, vitamins A, D, & E, and even lecithin have all been found to go rancid very soon after exposure to the oxygen in room air after a new bottle is opened.

I'm taking "Dry E" and de-oiled lecithin now and feeling much better! Please look into this further.

I think that fish oil liquids go rancid a lot slower when refrigerated.

Edited by SeekingSerenity, 12 September 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[SeekingSerenity]

Remember that Vitamin D must be taken at night prior to bed. It will make you drowsy if taken during any other time of day

From where did you hear this?

[chipdouglas]

Are we getting «opinions» rather than science here ?

[bgs4669]

Opinions help form the basis of experience - science...without user experience and info (feedback) you cannot get better science! - at the general level of speaking.

I am no scientist but have alot of experience and results from eating a true clean diet, trying to leave out processed and unnatural foods - with great results on my healthy. No science in that, just common sense...

[niner]

Opinions help form the basis of experience - science...without user experience and info (feedback) you cannot get better science! - at the general level of speaking.

Umm, no. Perhaps you're thinking of observations? Opinions, as the word is being used here, are subjective, may be ill-informed, and are often wrong.

[hallucinogen]

Normal daily vitamin D3 supplementation dosage ranges within 200-400 UI , with a meal that contains at least some fat

and you would usually not get anywhere near those levels even through food,

all of you who are supplementing higher than 400UI a day and wondering why you are feeling Crap are LUNATICS and should read "papers" less and listen to your body More

Edited by hallucinogen, 13 January 2014 - 06:43 AM.

[timar]

all of you who are supplementing higher than 400UI a day and wondering why you are feeling Crap are LUNATICS and should read "papers" less and listen to your body More

...and by doing so becoming a hypochondriac and imagine all kinds of placebo responses? Sorry, but it's quite obvious who is the lunatic here

I take 20,000 IU of vitamin D once weekly, during wintertime. I have never noticed any immediate effects at all from taking this dose (I guess I suck at "listening to my body" ). The pills are sold as a prescription-only drug in Germany and are subject to strict drug laws. The package insert doesn't mention any of the side effects purported in this topic for much lower doses. The only side effect it mentions at all is hypercalcaemia, as a consequence of overdosing.

In the 1950, thousands of newborns got a "welcome shot" of 2,000,000 IU of vitamin D for rickets prevention. Seemingly without any reported adverse effects (actually it should have been 200,000 IU, but in one large clinic in the city of Bonn it was overdosed by a factor of 10 for several years!)

Not that I would recommend such megadoses, of course! But it shows that vitamin D is remarkably safe.

[nameless]

Remember that Vitamin D must be taken at night prior to bed. It will make you drowsy if taken during any other time of day

This in complete nonsense. Sometimes I have the impression that this forum is full of hypochondriacs who suffer from all kinds of placebo responses...

I do think placebo reactions are more common than people think here. Alternatively, just read reviews of some supplements at iHerb, and it's chalk full of them.

That said, I think rwac has the best comment in regard to Vit D having a negative effect with some people. Get 1,25 measured ... those with certain diseases, such as sarcoidosis, bacterial infections, etc. may have an unusually high 1,25, so extra D on top of that could cause some issues.

[timar]

There may be a possibility of experiencing side effects the way rwac desribed by taking unphysiological doses, e.g in the range of 100.000 IU and above (after all, nobody asked those infants if they felt "like crap" after they injected them 2.000.000 IU ), but there is simply no way that a four-digit dose could ever produce the side effects purported here by some poeple. 1000 IU is what you endogenously produce when you expose your face and hands to the midday sun in the summertime for about 5 minutes. The VDR affinity of 25(OH)D is three orders of magnitude below that of activated 1,25(OH)D. If you are abnormally high in 1,25(OH)D, a few thousand IU of cholecaliferol would amount to a drop in the ocean.

[nameless]

There may be a possibility of experiencing side effects the way rwac desribed by taking unphysiological doses, e.g in the range of 100.000 IU and above (after all, nobody asked those infants if they felt "like crap" after they injected them 2.000.000 IU ), but there is simply no way that a four-digit dose could ever produce the side effects purported here by some poeple. 1000 IU is what you endogenously produce when you expose your face and hands to the midday sun in the summertime for about 5 minutes. The VDR affinity of 25(OH)D is three orders of magnitude below that of activated 1,25(OH)D. If you are abnormally high in 1,25(OH)D, a few thousand IU of cholecaliferol would amount to a drop in the ocean.

As a single dose, agreed. I just now looked back to see what the OP even stated, as I forgot, and it does look like one dose in the afternoon... so yeah, it doesn't make much sense. And I see this thread had been bumped, from ages ago, so expect the OP to not even notice this thread anyway (didn't notice when I posted it was a bumped thread).

If dosing several thousand IU, w/ high 1, 25, over a long-term period, I could see it causing possibly some issues. But unless the supplement is contaminated or there is some rare allergy to ingredients, I don't think a single, reasonable dose, would do much of anything at all.

Edited by nameless, 14 January 2014 - 03:36 AM.

[nowayout]

I take 20,000 IU of vitamin D once weekly, during wintertime. I have never noticed any immediate effects at all from taking this dose (I guess I suck at "listening to my body" ). The pills are sold as a prescription-only drug in Germany and are subject to strict drug laws. The package insert doesn't mention any of the side effects purported in this topic for much lower doses. The only side effect it mentions at all is hypercalcaemia, as a consequence of overdosing.

Your N = 1 experience of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course there are placebo effects, but they usually tend to be in the direction of expectations, not opposite to expectations as is the case here.

The internet, and specifically google plus forums like this one, has made it easier to collate rare side effects that would not otherwise show up in literature. Especially in the U.S., vitamin D supplements are not regulated by the FDA so there is no system in place to formally collect their side effects.

As for this side effect, it doesn't even seem to be all that rare. Anecdotally it seems to show up especially in people with autoimmune issues. I participate in a forum on A.S. where several people reported this. (And no, I didn't read about it before experiencing the effect - I was fully expecting vitamin D to either be neutral or positive at the time.)

[timar]

Your N = 1 experience of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course there are placebo effects, but they usually tend to be in the direction of expectations, not opposite to expectations as is the case here.

Certainly not. But my n=1 experience is congruent with 100% of the published literature, including a dozen of randomized, controlled trials, showing no adverse effects whatsoever with doses below 10,000 IU per day.

I think you haven't really understood the placebo response. It usually works in the direction of expectations, but certainly not necessarily so. It is a subconscious phenomenon and as such follows the peculiar, weird logic of the subconscious which, as we all know from our personal experience, is often opposed to conscious reasons.

The internet, and specifically google plus forums like this one, has made it easier to collate rare side effects that would not otherwise show up in literature. Especially in the U.S., vitamin D supplements are not regulated by the FDA so there is no system in place to formally collect their side effects.

I disagree. The internet is a swamp full of random and inane noise. You can't take reports from internet forums at face value. Even if some people report genuine side effects, it's almost impossible to pick them out from all the placebo noise.

Dekristol 20,000 is registered as a drug for more than 40 years in Germany. Since then, it has been subject to strict drug laws which require systematic reporting of side effects by physicians. Yet apart from hypercalcemia from overdosing, no side effects have been reported in all those years. Compare that with any other drug of your choice.

Edited by timar, 14 January 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[nowayout]

Your N = 1 experience of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course there are placebo effects, but they usually tend to be in the direction of expectations, not opposite to expectations as is the case here.

Certainly not. But my n=1 experience is congruent with 100% of the published literature, including a dozen of randomized, controlled trials, showing no adverse effects whatsoever with doses below 10,000 IU per day.

I think you haven't really understood the placebo response. It usually works in the direction of expectiations, but certainly not always. It is a subconscious phenomenon and as such follows the peculiar, weird logic of the subconscious which is often opposed to conscious reasons.

The internet, and specifically google plus forums like this one, has made it easier to collate rare side effects that would not otherwise show up in literature. Especially in the U.S., vitamin D supplements are not regulated by the FDA so there is no system in place to formally collect their side effects.

I disagree. The internet is a swamp full of random and inane noise. You can't take reports from internet forums at face value. Even if some people report genuine side effects, it's almost impossible to pick them out from all the placebo noise.

Dekristol 20,000 is registered as a drug for more than 40 years in Germany. Since then, it has been subject to strict drug laws which require systematic reporting of side effects by physicians. Yet apart from hypercalcemia from overdosing, no side effects have been reported in all those years. Compare that with any other drug of your choice.

Then the German reporting system must not be very good since there are a number of other known side effects besides hypercalcemia. For a list, see, e.g. webmd.

[timar]

Then the German reporting system must not be very good since there are a number of other known side effects besides hypercalcemia. For a list, see, e.g. webmd.

Maybe it is just better in filtering out placebo responses?

I wonder if all those side effects are also experienced by going out into the sun for a few minutes...

[nowayout]

Then the German reporting system must not be very good since there are a number of other known side effects besides hypercalcemia. For a list, see, e.g. webmd.

Maybe it is just better in filtering out placebo responses?

I wonder if all those side effects are also experienced by going out into the sun for a few minutes...

IME sun exposure and oral vitamin D feel very different. Maybe the route of absorption makes a difference (e.g., sun exposure does not expose the gut to such high concentrations of vitamin D as pills do), or the rate, or maybe sun exposure manufactures or releases other substances that may interact with vitamin D pathways in ways that are not yet understood.

Edited by nowayout, 14 January 2014 - 02:36 PM.