7 replies to this topic

[John2009]

Hi everyone,

As I understand it, Endogenous antioxidants produced naturally by our own bodies, such as Glutathione, Superoxide dismutase (SOD), Alpha lipoic acid (ALA), etc., are much more powerful and helpful than the exogenous antioxidants that we obtain from our diet or supplements.

1. Is it likely that ingesting high dose exogenous antioxidants from supplements could down-regulate the production of our bodies natural endogenous antioxidants so that the body actually produces less endogenous antioxidants than it would if there were no antioxidant supplementation ? I'm thinking the effect could be similar to when people use testosterone or steroids and this down-regulates the bodies own production of testosterone and steroid hormones. Is down-regulation generally a permanent condition or does normal or per-supplement level production resume when supplementation stops ?

In the past it has been difficult to significantly effect endogenous antioxidant production via oral supplements, but there are products today that are trying to address this issue like Glisodin that is used in some LEF products...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glisodin

http://www.lef.org/V...e with GliSODin

It has also been suggested that lipoceutical delivery methods may work http://www.lef.org/V...key=Glutathione

2. Is it likely that using products like Glisodin or LEF's SODzyme® with GliSODin® & Wolfberry, could actually down-regulation the bodies own natural production of endogenous anti-oxidants ? Could the down-regulation be permanent ? I'm a little more interested in an answer to this question than question 1 because I think using exogenous antioxidants is less likely to have an effect since those are already present in food, but not typically at supplement levels.

There is some suggestive evidence that increasing oxidative stress, rather than taking antioxidants, can promote longevity and health...

http://www.sciencedi...531556510001282

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16242247

http://jama.ama-assn.../8/842.abstract

3. When all of evidence is considered both for and against, should we use exogenous antioxidants and/or try to increase our endogenous antioxidant production via products like Glisodin or LEF's SODzyme® with GliSODin® & Wolfberry ? What good evidence is there for trying to modify our own natural antioxidant levels via exogenous antioxidant supplements and via trying to increase endogenous antioxidant production ?

My feeling is that it may be beneficial to increase endogenous antioxidant production if it will not down regulate the bodies own natural production of endogenous antioxidants if supplementation is stopped.

I would appreciate any thoughts, opinions, or feedback.

Thanks

John

Foods highest in antioxidants:

http://upload.wikime...ntioxidants.jpg

http://en.wikipedia....d.7C20350594-97

http://en.wikipedia....xidants_in_food

[John2009]

Bump

[niner]

You're on the right track, John. There's good evidence for the value of hormetic approaches like exercise or CR, but a growing body of evidence suggests that exogenous antioxidants are not that great of an idea. Biology uses feedback loops to maintain reasonable levels of the substances that it synthesizes, so if you add ingredient X, the enzyme system that synthesizes X is likely to get downregulated, or the system that gets rid of X might be upregulated, or both. These changes are unlikely to be permanent.

[John2009]

Thanks Niner,

These changes are unlikely to be permanent.

I guess whether or not the changes are permanent is the big question. The other big question is, even if there is some down-regulation, is there still possibly a net benefit of supplementing with antioxidants, i.e., can antioxidant activity still be improved with supplements even with some down-regulation ? I guess the jury is still out on that one.

If the changes are not permanent, then one could possibly increase anti-oxidant activity and then if supplementation is stopped, it would not matter as long as the body's own production of anti-oxidants returned to pre-supplement levels reasonably quick .

I have recently become interested in learning of ways to increase the body's production and/or levels of it's own endogenous antioxidants like Glutathione, SOD, ALA, etc., and I am considering supplements but I did have concerns as to what the overall benefit might be and concerns about any possible down-regulation being permanent.

I have heard of people getting high dose Glutathione intravenously, but I don't know if it affected the body's pre-treatment production of Glutathione once treatment was stopped. It seems to me if intravenous treatments with Glutathione produced any significant or permanent effects on the body's production of Glutathione, then there would be some symptoms after treatment was stopped. You would also think that Doctors giving intravenous Glutathione would check the Glutathione levels once supplementation was stopped.

[Dorian Grey]

Very interesting questions and discussion here... I don't have the answers, but I compromise in my supplementation regime by going with very low doses of most everything I take, which is not always easy to do as everything seems to come only in megadose quantities.

Lipoic acid is a good example... Food sources and endogenous generation seems to indicate ALA is only present in very small quantities. Nanograms per pound of food or ml of blood, yet try to find ALA supplements in low doses. ALA can also "competitively inhibit" biotin absorption and activity... Something I learned the hard way.

I finally found some 100mg tabs that I cut into 4 pieces with a pill cutter for a 25mg/day dose.

SAM-e is supposed to be magical stuff, but large doses can cause problems... I take one 200mg tab each morning and have actually noticed a positive effect with my back pain at this dose. Is it possible 400mg three times a day is overkill? I think so!

Selenium can be very good in the right form, and right dose, but I simply couldn't find a supplement that provided both of these requirements, so now I eat 3 or 4 Brazil nuts three times a week. Mission Accomplished!

Even vitamin-C is difficult to find below 1000mg per dose. I found some 500mg caplets and cut them in half, taking 250mg twice a day.

I think supplement manufacturers are getting a bit carried away trying to one-up eachother so they can say "ours has more"! It's a dangerous practice and someone needs to get the message across to them that sometimes "less is more".

Edited by synesthesia, 05 September 2011 - 07:40 PM.

[triplecrown]

I practice randomized supplementation with a majority of the supplements I take.Basically I flip a quarter(heads- take it..... tails-don't take it) The exceptions to this are vitamin d, milk thistle, and vitamin k2, which I usually take everyday. I've been doing this for awhile. The reason I do this is because I believe that supplements are quite beneficial, however we were not designed to take in the same amount of these nutrients everyday. It seems to me that the body likes to be shocked by uncertainty sometimes. For millions of years we hunted for food and some days we were successful and would feast, other days we would almost literally starve to death. In other words we were not taking in massive amounts of nutrients everyday. There was always a seesaw effect where our bodies had to constantly adapt to being without food and then be stuffed with food when we were successful in the hunt. I believe this is why calorie restriction is probably successful, because it mimics these old time behaviors. That being said, I think a good multivitamin taken everyday might be a good investment for most people, because of all the processed food people eat that is stripped of most vital nutrients.
Just my 2cents for what its worth.

[John2009]

Thanks for the additional info guys,

Tripplecrown, I've been thinking of taking milk thistle myself because it can raise glutathione levels and because it seems to have shown some ability to improve liver function. Do you notice any difference in the way you feel when you take it ? Can Milk Thistle improve energy or make you feel a little less run down ? Also, what brand do you use ? I was thinking of trying Jarrow formulas.

Your randomized supplementation approach via quarter flipping is interesting. It was kind of funny to read that because I had just gotten done watching "No country for old men" on AMC. I don't want to be flipping any quarters with Anton Chigurh in the room

You may well have a point about the randomness of evolution and life in general. We tend to take everything in fairly constant dosing regimens. It may be beneficial to shake things up every now and then, or at least just take a day or two off each week.

Edited by John2009, 06 September 2011 - 12:38 AM.

[triplecrown]

Hey John2009,
I take lef's brand of milk thistle.
http://www.lef.org/V...ey=milk thistle

I take it primarily (like you mentioned above) for its reported ability to raise glutathione levels in the liver. It doesn't seem to boost energy, but I do feel better when I take it.

lol at the "No country for old men"

Edited by triplecrown, 06 September 2011 - 01:38 AM.