602 replies to this topic

[Louis]

There's nothing special in product B. Just small amounts of the standard herbal extracts that many of us has been using for years. In fact I use almost all of the extracts in much larger doses and have for very long time for potential health benefits. But nothing spectacular.

By that logic, TA-65 is simply astragalus extract "that many of us have been using for years".
That's all the law requires TA-Sciences to list on the label.

My comments pertain to US law only.

[Hebbeh]

So we're supposed to blindly trust them that they are using special highly purified and concentrated extracts in their "everything but the kitchen sink" formulation that are not available any place else on the market? And that their special extracts are concentrating newly discovered small molecules in 5 of these common herbs?

[Mind]

I am unsure what all the bickering is about. Not sure if this is a real productive thread. Can someone try to get this moving in a productive direction? It seems like there is some needed data and testing before anything definitive can be said.

[Moonlitnight]

Adam, I take it at dinnertime, three hours away from melatonin. I will check on the reason for the gap before melatonin. I generally look young for 59. No lines, sags, wrinkles, so perhaps the other ingredients that I have been taking for a longer time have kept the status quo. I haven't noticed any improvement in my powers of accommodation, which is disappointing, as this is a biomarker of aging. The formulator of the product I take is in his 70s and appears not to have aged for 15 or so years. A past employee with whom I met for lunch a couple of months back asked me if I knew why he never aged while everyone else just grew older and looked it. (He also said I was the only person he knew who looked younger as time went on, but he could have been flattering me.) The formulator (actually, it's just three forms of astragalus extract, so not much formulating) is dedicated to regaining youth and seems to be doing it. He is very spiritual, sees himself getting younger, takes lord-knows-what, is vegan and appears to be doing something right.

[Louis]

I suggest we focus on the science.

For example, consider the botanical ingredient present in product B in the 2nd highest concentration: epimedium (horny goart weed).

I've found a considerable amount of evidence that this single ingredient increases proliferation and differentiation of stem cells in 3 major organ systems: brain, heart, bones. Such a broad spectrum rejuvenating effect on stem cells in 3 unrelated organ systems is quite remarkable. I organized the pubmed citations below. It appears that the fractionated component Icariin is largely responsible.

Epimedium promotes osteoblastogenesis in bone marrow stromal (stem) cells:
PMID: 19501202

Epimedium enhances osteogenic differentiation of bone marrow stromal (stem) cells:
PMID: 22009597
PMID: 16398272

Epimedium promotes the proliferation and differentiation of neural stem cells
PMID: 19703337
US Patent: US 2010/0317605 A1 (Dec 16, 2010)

Epimedium activates endogenous stem cells:
PMID: 19548445

Epimedium (Icariin) stimulates adipose-derived stem cells to differentiate into cardiomyocytes:
PMID: 20563742

Epimedium (Icariin) induces embryonic stem cell differentiation into cardiomyocytes
PMID: 21181238
PMID: 18484897
PMID: 15780198
PMID: 17883938
PMID: 17985362
PMID: 18423597
PMID: 18484897

Epimedium (Icariin) enhances differentiation of bone marrow stromal (stem) cells
PMID: 18236786
PMID: 16398272
PMID: 20669681

Epimedium (Icariin) accelerates proliferation of bone marrow stromal (stem) cells
PMID: 17326409

Edited by Louis, 21 December 2011 - 09:59 PM.

[Louis]

Note that there is a small Chinese study which appears to demonstrate that epimedium can lengthen telomeres in vitro and extend replicative capacity. However, the authors were unable to detect the presence of telomerase in their experiment via a TRAP assay.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....um%20telomerase

RESULTS: EF could significantly extend the population doublings of 2BS cells, the expression of p16 mRNA was decreased and the content of phosphorated Rb protein were increased by EF. The telomere lengthening of 2BS cells were improved by EF, but the telomerase was not activated.

There are very few ways in which telomeres could lengthen without transient expression of telomerase, so it's very possible that their TRAP assay was simply not sensitive enough to detect HeLa scores on the order of 1%. Such levels are very weak. Unfortunately, I have been unable to obtain a copy of this paper in English, so I cannot comment any further on the quality of their assay.

Edited by Louis, 21 December 2011 - 10:43 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

My credentials are just like yours Louis... probably better because I spent money, time and resources trying to see if Product B worked or not in a lab setting, rather than take anyone's word for it... Why did I do it? Why did I spend the money to verify the product claims I have heard from MLM folks?

Heck, I wanted to provide a world class product to my customers, and make some profit by doing so...just like you...Why not? After all, its the American way right? But first I wanted to make sure it did, what Bill said it did.

Unfortunately, after testing it, I can't personally recommend it for telomerase activation to anyone (even if you were small enough to live in a petri dish).

Cheers

A

[Louis]

My credentials are just like yours Louis... probably better because I spent money, time and resources trying to see if Product B worked or not in a lab setting, rather than take anyone's word for it... Why did I do it? Why did I spend the money to verify the product claims I have heard from MLM folks?

Heck, I wanted to provide a world class product to my customers, and make some profit by doing so...just like you...Why not? After all, its the American way right? But first I wanted to make sure it did, what Bill said it did.

Unfortunately, after testing it, I can't personally recommend it for telomerase activation to anyone (even if you were small enough to live in a petri dish).

Cheers

A

I have no problem with anything that you're saying above Anthony or with your experiments. In fact, I appreciate you sharing these results. I'm only interested in the science here. The experiments you sponsored are a part of that science and provide a relevant datapoint. I really hope you follow up on your promise to write up those results and submit them for peer review and publication. That would force people to take them seriously. If you can't get the paper published in a medline-indexed journal, then I would suggest self-publishing it on your website.

One of your main criticisms here has been that Bill Andrews has not published any of his in vitro results on Product B, and that we all shouldn't just "take his word for it". In all honestly, I think this is a scientifically valid criticism. Here's your chance to do things differently. If you publish a seriously written scientific paper describing in detail the testing methods involved in your experiments (even if only on your website), then we won't have to "just take your word for it" either. Otherwise, it's just one person's word against the other. That's not science, as you yourself have pointed out many times.

[niner]

I don't believe you.

Why would you want to live longer in such a negative and pessimistic state of mind?

I get grouchy when manipulative liars try to use our forum for personal financial gain.

[Louis]

>> Heck, I wanted to provide a world class product to my customers, and make some profit by doing so...just like you...Why not? After all, its the American way right? But first I wanted to make sure it did, what Bill said it did.

I want to reiterate once more that I do NOT sell product B. I only purchase it for my own personal use and that of my family. I do so because of the positive results I've had (which I do NOT claim are due to telomerase activation, because I have no proof of that), and because doing so supports future research at Sierra Sciences. Nor do I sell any other type of product, health-related or otherwise. I'm assuming that you're referring to someone else when you say "just like you" above.

[Product-B-User]

Product-B-User. I am really surprised about that. Is it legal to leave ingredients off a label? What if someone were allergic to one of them? I realize very few, if any, people would be allergic to telomerase activators but surely there must be some law or precedent covering the omission of ingredients. Up here above the 49th, we'd probably be closed down (and in many cases have been) for breaching regulatory standards. We might even be beamed off somewhere nasty. I have been taking most of Product-B's ingredients for over six years, plus cycloastragenol/ astragaloside IV for six months. I haven't noticed anything (yet).

Anisor, some of Product B's ingredients can be found in another Isagenix product called "Ionix Superem", but they are very good ingredients as you well know. I'm not familiar with the laws as they relate to proprietary blends, but Isagenix is an international company and I'm certain they wouldn't risk it. We're not talking about a hyped up new MLM company that hasn't been tested and proven.

[Product-B-User]

>> Heck, I wanted to provide a world class product to my customers, and make some profit by doing so...just like you...Why not? After all, its the American way right? But first I wanted to make sure it did, what Bill said it did.

I want to reiterate once more that I do NOT sell product B. I only purchase it for my own personal use and that of my family. I do so because of the positive results I've had (which I do NOT claim are due to telomerase activation, because I have no proof of that), and because doing so supports future research at Sierra Sciences. Nor do I sell any other type of product, health-related or otherwise. I'm assuming that you're referring to someone else when you say "just like you" above.

I've noticed there are a few VERY negative minded people here. Some genius even called me a "manipulative liar" for some reason that is beyond me. I guess you take the bad with the good on these forums, where people generally do not communicate with their best behavior online, where they can hide behind a computer screen. Character, however cannot be hid from. It's with you no matter where you go!

[Product-B-User]

I don't believe you.

Why would you want to live longer in such a negative and pessimistic state of mind?

I get grouchy when manipulative liars try to use our forum for personal financial gain.

What I just read (reading between the lines) is "I get grouchy and love to bare false witness when, for some subconscious reason, I perceive without facts that someone is lying and manipulating". Yeah, I'd be grouchy too

[Louis]

P-B-User,

In regards to your comments about hair color: Can you specifically ask your friend if he found a hair that was dark towards the shaft but gray towards the top?

This is an important question, because it gets at the heart of what might be the mechanism of action. Were the gray hairs falling out and not being replaced? Or were they falling out and being replaced by dark hairs? Or was there a color change from gray to dark while the hair was still growing (a hair dark at the shaft, but gray at the end)?

I have seen a very minor decrease in the number of gray hairs in my beard. Not nearly enough to be noticable in a photo. But I have never found a hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top. It appears a number of the gray hairs have just fallen out -- I can't tell if they've been replaced or not.

[niner]

I've noticed there are a few VERY negative minded people here. Some genius even called me a "manipulative liar" for some reason that is beyond me. I guess you take the bad with the good on these forums, where people generally do not communicate with their best behavior online, where they can hide behind a computer screen. Character, however cannot be hid from. It's with you no matter where you go!

Yep. Character. That's what it's really all about. Let's steer the conversation toward my "character", and away from the sort of slimy sales tactics that usually work so well. This is an unusual forum. Our members come from all over the world, and all walks of life. It includes scientists, students, doctors, CEOs, moms, lawyers, supplement industry professionals; all sorts of people. Some of the people here have pretty good BS detectors. We try to separate fact from fiction here. You have something to sell. You are associated with a Multi Level Marketing company. I can guarantee you that you are not going to get a good reception around here unless you present evidence for your claims and keep things factual.

[sunshinefrost]

Niner, you ARE negative. I respect your knowledge of nootropics and this type of science but you are the one steering this conversation towards mlm and away from product b. I m just trying to read ABOUT product b.

[Product-B-User]

I've noticed there are a few VERY negative minded people here. Some genius even called me a "manipulative liar" for some reason that is beyond me. I guess you take the bad with the good on these forums, where people generally do not communicate with their best behavior online, where they can hide behind a computer screen. Character, however cannot be hid from. It's with you no matter where you go!

Yep. Character. That's what it's really all about. Let's steer the conversation toward my "character", and away from the sort of slimy sales tactics that usually work so well. This is an unusual forum. Our members come from all over the world, and all walks of life. It includes scientists, students, doctors, CEOs, moms, lawyers, supplement industry professionals; all sorts of people. Some of the people here have pretty good BS detectors. We try to separate fact from fiction here. You have something to sell. You are associated with a Multi Level Marketing company. I can guarantee you that you are not going to get a good reception around here unless you present evidence for your claims and keep things factual.

All the professions you stated above that are in this group have nothing to do with character. Character is what is manifest in conversation, in practice, in attitude and in the way we treat others. I am very grateful to be a part of this forum, as there are already many things I've learned from those with obviously more knowledge than I have! This is the main reason I joined. This IS a very unique forum and I'm thankful to have happened upon it. But for someone of your "profession", I think you'd benefit greatly by evaluating the way you treat visitors, even if you suspect some hidden agenda.

I will provide information from good sources as they come to me, but I would never try to use this forum to push Product B. Besides, when one signs up the rules and regulations are very clear on that. Do you see me posting links to my Isagenix associate site? I want to know just as much as you guys do exactly what Product B can do for me. I have some experiences, but I can't explain why I've experienced them! Thanks for your concern

[Product-B-User]

P-B-User,

In regards to your comments about hair color: Can you specifically ask your friend if he found a hair that was dark towards the shaft but gray towards the top?

This is an important question, because it gets at the heart of what might be the mechanism of action. Were the gray hairs falling out and not being replaced? Or were they falling out and being replaced by dark hairs? Or was there a color change from gray to dark while the hair was still growing (a hair dark at the shaft, but gray at the end)?

I have seen a very minor decrease in the number of gray hairs in my beard. Not nearly enough to be noticable in a photo. But I have never found a hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top. It appears a number of the gray hairs have just fallen out -- I can't tell if they've been replaced or not.

His word to me were "it's coming in darker" so I am assuming they are growing in darker, not falling out then growing back in. However, the results seem to very in this regard. I have another friend who's hair color hasn't changed at all, but I think he stopped taking due to it interfering with a medication he was on. Also, John Anderson (formulator) and Bill Andrews both stressed the need to cleanse (cleanse for life) in order to get rid of toxicity in cells so that you can get better absorption. My friend has been cleansing quit a bit, even before taking Product B.

I know many people don't like, or even don't understand the concept of cleansing, but I guess a decent analogy would be serving up caviar in an ash trey. "Out with the bad, in with the good" is the idea they have for people.

I will copy and paste your questions in an e-mail to my friend and get back with you.

[Anthony_Loera]

One of your main criticisms here has been that Bill Andrews has not published any of his in vitro results on Product B, and that we all shouldn't just "take his word for it". In all honestly, I think this is a scientifically valid criticism. Here's your chance to do things differently. If you publish a seriously written scientific paper describing in detail the testing methods involved in your experiments (even if only on your website), then we won't have to "just take your word for it" either. Otherwise, it's just one person's word against the other. That's not science, as you yourself have pointed out many times.

I actually agree with you on this post.

However while we wait for the science to be published, if platitudes are spouted... I'll probably opine as well.

Cheers

A

[Louis]

P-B-User,

In regards to your comments about hair color: Can you specifically ask your friend if he found a hair that was dark towards the shaft but gray towards the top?

This is an important question, because it gets at the heart of what might be the mechanism of action. Were the gray hairs falling out and not being replaced? Or were they falling out and being replaced by dark hairs? Or was there a color change from gray to dark while the hair was still growing (a hair dark at the shaft, but gray at the end)?

I have seen a very minor decrease in the number of gray hairs in my beard. Not nearly enough to be noticable in a photo. But I have never found a hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top. It appears a number of the gray hairs have just fallen out -- I can't tell if they've been replaced or not.

His word to me were "it's coming in darker" so I am assuming they are growing in darker, not falling out then growing back in. However, the results seem to very in this regard. I have another friend who's hair color hasn't changed at all, but I think he stopped taking due to it interfering with a medication he was on. Also, John Anderson (formulator) and Bill Andrews both stressed the need to cleanse (cleanse for life) in order to get rid of toxicity in cells so that you can get better absorption. My friend has been cleansing quit a bit, even before taking Product B.

I know many people don't like, or even don't understand the concept of cleansing, but I guess a decent analogy would be serving up caviar in an ash trey. "Out with the bad, in with the good" is the idea they have for people.

I will copy and paste your questions in an e-mail to my friend and get back with you.

Thanks a lot. Can you please check with him to be absolutely sure if he's found hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top? I really think it's much likelier that it just looks darker because the grays have fallen out, and are being replaced dark or are not being replaced at all. There may be an illusion of it "coming in darker", but on closer inspection no actual hairs that are dark at the shaft and gray at the top.

[Anthony_Loera]

I don't believe you.

Why would you want to live longer in such a negative and pessimistic state of mind?

I get grouchy when manipulative liars try to use our forum for personal financial gain.

Ditto...
I believe niner and maxwatt have caught their fair share here in the board over the years, and know how to spot these quickly. The 'miracle' language used in the posts is usually a dead give away... however, in this last instance, Peanut-Butter-user's timeline is wrong unless he was an elite Isagenix product pusher who had access to the product before hand...

Either way... I cannot trust the guy.
A

[Anthony_Loera]

If you have been in the forum's long enough...

you will notice a certain tactic being played out, by folks who don't want the 'bad things' read by folks who are just passing by...

[Anthony_Loera]

Mainly that two people will begin to talk about something in the thread...
and push the old stuff up, and out...

Le's watch to see if it happens on this thread shall we?

A

[Product-B-User]

I don't believe you.

Why would you want to live longer in such a negative and pessimistic state of mind?

I get grouchy when manipulative liars try to use our forum for personal financial gain.

Ditto...
I believe niner and maxwatt have caught their fair share here in the board over the years, and know how to spot these quickly. The 'miracle' language used in the posts is usually a dead give away... however, in this last instance, Peanut-Butter-user's timeline is wrong unless he was an elite Isagenix product pusher who had access to the product before hand...

Either way... I cannot trust the guy.
A

I've already stated that I am an Isagenix Executive (Independent), why do you think I have something to hide? I had the privilege of using Product B 2 months before it launched. I AM NOT LYING about anything, and I do not care if you don't trust me. Try asking me some questions, or getting to know me before labeling me. The terms and conditions don't allow commercial marketing. I'm here to gather more information from some apparently bright minds. Do you see me trying to post my Isagenix associate site? I'm not desperate for money, I'm just as interested in you to get more info.

[Louis]

Folks, I should mention that a large boost in catalase levels could be responsible for a change in hair color. There is emerging evidence that in some people naturally produced hydrogen peroxide is responsible for loss of hair color. The body's natural defense against hydrogen peroxide is catalase.

The ingredients silymarin, curcumin, ashwagandha, bacopa, and green tea when taken in combination have been shown in a small human clinical trial to boost catalase levels by about 50% via a mechanism involving Nrf2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16413416
Silymarin, turmeric (curcumin), ashwagandha, and bacopa, are 4 of the 6 ingredients in product B present in the highest concentrations. I suspect this is no coincidence.

[Product-B-User]

P-B-User,

In regards to your comments about hair color: Can you specifically ask your friend if he found a hair that was dark towards the shaft but gray towards the top?

This is an important question, because it gets at the heart of what might be the mechanism of action. Were the gray hairs falling out and not being replaced? Or were they falling out and being replaced by dark hairs? Or was there a color change from gray to dark while the hair was still growing (a hair dark at the shaft, but gray at the end)?

I have seen a very minor decrease in the number of gray hairs in my beard. Not nearly enough to be noticable in a photo. But I have never found a hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top. It appears a number of the gray hairs have just fallen out -- I can't tell if they've been replaced or not.

His word to me were "it's coming in darker" so I am assuming they are growing in darker, not falling out then growing back in. However, the results seem to very in this regard. I have another friend who's hair color hasn't changed at all, but I think he stopped taking due to it interfering with a medication he was on. Also, John Anderson (formulator) and Bill Andrews both stressed the need to cleanse (cleanse for life) in order to get rid of toxicity in cells so that you can get better absorption. My friend has been cleansing quit a bit, even before taking Product B.

I know many people don't like, or even don't understand the concept of cleansing, but I guess a decent analogy would be serving up caviar in an ash trey. "Out with the bad, in with the good" is the idea they have for people.

I will copy and paste your questions in an e-mail to my friend and get back with you.

Thanks a lot. Can you please check with him to be absolutely sure if he's found hair dark at the shaft and gray at the top? I really think it's much likelier that it just looks darker because the grays have fallen out, and are being replaced dark or are not being replaced at all. There may be an illusion of it "coming in darker", but on closer inspection no actual hairs that are dark at the shaft and gray at the top.

2 weeks after starting Product B his hairstylist mentioned to him that his hair was coming in darker at the shaft. I visited him and he showed me. However, I didn't inspect his hair before he started, so I assumed he was telling me the truth. He's not in the money, just using the product. I don't think he'd mind if I put you in contact with him. I am posting his before pic and you can see his hair is white. Keep it saved on your computer and I'll send the after pic as soon as I get it.

When I saw him last Friday his hair was much darker than in this pic.

[Louis]

A nice writeup in science daily on why catalase may be the main culprit in hair graying.
http://www.scienceda...90223131123.htm

In my case, I suspect a boost in catalase is actually what's going on.
If the hair just recently turned gray, boosting catalase shortly thereafter may be able to save the color producing cells in in the follicle before they're permanently destroyed.

[Louis]

>> 2 weeks after starting Product B his hairstylist mentioned to him that his hair was coming in darker at the shaft. I visited him and he showed me. However, I didn't inspect his hair before he started, so I assumed he was telling me the truth. He's not in the money, just using the product. I don't think he'd mind if I put you in contact with him. I am posting his before pic and you can see his hair is white. Keep it saved on your computer and I'll send the after pic as soon as I get it.

Two weeks is way too fast for a weak telomerase activator to regenerate a significant number of melanocytes to start producing melanin in the follicle again. But catalase levels can be significantly boosted in just a few days. This must also be catalase at work.

[Product-B-User]

>> 2 weeks after starting Product B his hairstylist mentioned to him that his hair was coming in darker at the shaft. I visited him and he showed me. However, I didn't inspect his hair before he started, so I assumed he was telling me the truth. He's not in the money, just using the product. I don't think he'd mind if I put you in contact with him. I am posting his before pic and you can see his hair is white. Keep it saved on your computer and I'll send the after pic as soon as I get it.

Two weeks is way too fast for a weak telomerase activator to regenerate a significant number of melanocytes to start producing melanin in the follicle again. But catalase levels can be significantly boosted in just a few days. This must also be catalase at work.

Can you explain to me how Catalase works? His hair is also turning brown (he says blond, but it looks brown to me. I'm not trying to use "miracle language" here, but I was wondering if you would be able to help me understand. I have had cold sores for many years. My wife as well (got them from me) but after a few months on Product B they went away. I could always feel them under the surface of my lips. Also, hard callous heels became soft, and I'm a beach volleyball player. Also my callous hands got smoother. I haven't had my eyes checked, but I can drive without my contacts in now. My friend Emily reported to me the other day that her eye doctor told her that her eyesight has improved. Other people have reported this.

I'm really just interested in finding out why my cold sores went away (it's a form of herpies, as you probably know) and why my allergies were not horrific this past season.

[niner]

I'm not trying to use "miracle language" here, but I was wondering if you would be able to help me understand. I have had cold sores for many years. My wife as well (got them from me) but after a few months on Product B they went away. I could always feel them under the surface of my lips. Also, hard callous heels became soft, and I'm a beach volleyball player. Also my callous hands got smoother. I haven't had my eyes checked, but I can drive without my contacts in now. My friend Emily reported to me the other day that her eye doctor told her that her eyesight has improved. Other people have reported this.

I'm really just interested in finding out why my cold sores went away (it's a form of herpies, as you probably know) and why my allergies were not horrific this past season.

The normal behavior of cold sores is that they clear up on their own. They return when you're under some form of stress, like a fever/cold or psychological duress. If you actually had active herpetic lesions for years, that would be really unusual, and indicative of immunosuppression.

Callouses get softer on their own as the dead skin wears away.

Earlier you said that your vision had improved 30%. I was wondering how you measured that, particularly if you've not had your eyes checked. Are you saying that previously you couldn't drive without your contacts, and now you can, or did you not actually run that experiment?

In cases like this where you are trying to evaluate a 'miracle substance', placebo effects are extremely likely. That's why a double blind placebo controlled trial is the standard of medical science. The only thing here that doesn't sound like a placebo effect is your friend's report that her eye doctor told her her vision had improved. I would want to know a little more than that, though; what was her prescription before and after using PB? Would her eye doctor be willing to confirm that?