602 replies to this topic

[Product-B-User]

Euhhhh yes ... please "focus" on product B. No more cleansing product info... Please. If you bring in cleansing, now that's when i'll think you are pushing for isagenix. C'mon !!

I apologize, I was asked and I responded, but should have sent a private message. This is the first forum I've found interest in spending time on, not too savvy on them....

[Louis]

http://www.lef.org/m...lliam%20Andrews

If you'd like to read a good summary on how potentially dangerous globally activating telomerase in a strong way could be, I suggest you read the debate between Michael West and Bill Andrews published in Life Extension Magazine only a little over 2 years ago (link above).

Bill Andrews readily admits the potential cancer danger. Fooling around with extremely highly purified/fractionated compounds that have no prior history of human use in large doses, could potentially cost you your life. Please be careful.

Edited by Louis, 23 December 2011 - 08:09 PM.

[Louis]

What this tells me is that the product hasn't been developed yet but they are marketing and selling a pretend product strictly to raise revenue with the hopes of developing the real thing some day...if that exists....a big if.

Bill Andrews has said that Product B is an evolving product. As far as the main goal (reverse aging), it's a matter of time before we get there. However, wouldn't you at least want to slow down aging, or stop it altogether, while you are working on reversing it? Product B is what it is, does what it does, and will continue to become more effective at doing what it does.

Why would you want Dr. Andrews to wait until Product B was at its ideal strength to give us access to it?

I would NOT take it if it were at its "ideal strength" today. I feel that would be too dangerous. We need to wait for the science to catch up.
Sierra Sciences hasn't even published a single paper yet. It's way too early.

If a new product B at "ideal strength" suddenly came out today, I would instead switch to taking each of the top 6 botanicals individually (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) from separate standardized products so I could have precise control over the ingredients and their degree of fractionation/purification.

[Product-B-User]

What this tells me is that the product hasn't been developed yet but they are marketing and selling a pretend product strictly to raise revenue with the hopes of developing the real thing some day...if that exists....a big if.

Bill Andrews has said that Product B is an evolving product. As far as the main goal (reverse aging), it's a matter of time before we get there. However, wouldn't you at least want to slow down aging, or stop it altogether, while you are working on reversing it? Product B is what it is, does what it does, and will continue to become more effective at doing what it does.

Why would you want Dr. Andrews to wait until Product B was at its ideal strength to give us access to it?

I would NOT take it if it were at its "ideal strength" today. I feel that would be too dangerous. We need to wait for the science to catch up.
Sierra Sciences hasn't even published a single paper yet. It's way too early.

If a new product B at "ideal strength" suddenly came out today, I would instead switch to taking each of the top 6 botanicals individually (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) from separate standardized products so I could have precise control over the ingredients and their degree of fractionation/purification.

As you were typing this my father in law and I were wondering if it would better if Isagenix just made available many different versions of Product B. If someone, for example, decided their life wasn't happy enough to want to live past 150 they could take a lesser version.

[niner]

As you were typing this my father in law and I were wondering if it would better if Isagenix just made available many different versions of Product B. If someone, for example, decided their life wasn't happy enough to want to live past 150 they could take a lesser version.

Please don't use this forum to spread ridiculous fantasies that incidentally line your pocket. Product B is NOT going to allow anyone to live to 150. Even IF it kept telomeres at their optimal length, it wouldn't do that. There are a number of other reasons why we age. Is Product B going to eliminate extracellular glycoxidation? Does it remove lipofuscin? Does it reboot the immune system? Does it undo systemic amyloidosis? It's bad enough when you guys make unsupported claims that it activates telomerase a little bit, but when you start telling people they will live to 150, or that their grey hair will return to its youthful color or that they will grow hair on their bald heads, you are deep in SCAM territory.

[Product-B-User]

As you were typing this my father in law and I were wondering if it would better if Isagenix just made available many different versions of Product B. If someone, for example, decided their life wasn't happy enough to want to live past 150 they could take a lesser version.

Please don't use this forum to spread ridiculous fantasies that incidentally line your pocket. Product B is NOT going to allow anyone to live to 150. Even IF it kept telomeres at their optimal length, it wouldn't do that. There are a number of other reasons why we age. Is Product B going to eliminate extracellular glycoxidation? Does it remove lipofuscin? Does it reboot the immune system? Does it undo systemic amyloidosis? It's bad enough when you guys make unsupported claims that it activates telomerase a little bit, but when you start telling people they will live to 150, or that their grey hair will return to its youthful color or that they will grow hair on their bald heads, you are deep in SCAM territory.

In light of one of my favorite Christmas movie, and very applicable to the above quote, "He's an angry elf!"

You are absolutely right, in a VERY negative way Not about the "scam territory claim", but in regards to aging having multi-factors. Bill Andrews and Isagenix are telling people that Product B is not a "stand alone product". Cleansing, proper nutrition, and many other health preventative methods all play into longevity. I have no doubt that a person CAN reach 150 (my personal opinion, not spouting out scammish false doctrine) if they follow all the right steps. I watched a video with a man that is 110 years old, looks like he is 80 and walking without a cane.

I never "claimed" that anyone would live to 150 years old just by taking product b. I used the word "if" they wanted to, which encompasses quite a bit. "If" I wanted to become (what would I have to be willing to do in order to become) the world's greatest ultimate fighter, learning how to punch alone will not get me there. "If" I really want it, I'll do so much more to get there.

Nice try though

[niner]

When you attend sales seminars at Isagenix, do they tell that a good tactic for dealing with people who don't buy your hucksterism is to tell them they are being "negative" or "angry"? Do they tell you to suggest that they don't deserve to live to 150 because they aren't happy enough?

Please lose the smileys. They aren't helping.

[Hebbeh]

What this tells me is that the product hasn't been developed yet but they are marketing and selling a pretend product strictly to raise revenue with the hopes of developing the real thing some day...if that exists....a big if.

In many ways, it's better that the research proceeds slowly like this. If a strong non-botanical based activator were available now, I certainly would NOT take it. Many prominent researchers still believe that globally activating telomerase will SIGNIFICANTLY increase the risk for developing cancer. For example, Michael West, the former CEO of Geron and the current CEO of BioTime, still strongly believes this to be the case. Elizabeth Blackburn and Carol Greider also believe it as well. So does DePinho. Because the research on telomerase is still so extremely early stage, it's much safer to consume only botanical based products with a long history of safe use. Right now, you'd have to be a fool to experiment with other compounds that have, as Michael West has put it, "no precedent in human nutrition". You'd be gambling with your life.

Your wishy washy opinion makes no sense. Either Telomerase activation is safe or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. You can't say Telomerase activation is safe with one product and not a different product. If Telomerase activation causes a risk of cancer...well than any product that increases Telomerase is going to be a risk. And if you're saying Product B isn't a risk because it's not a very strong Telomerase Activator....well then what is the point of even wasting your time with it if your approach to anti-aging is to increase telomere length. If longer Telomeres equal longer healthier life, then it will require a serious Telomerase Activator to get the job done. But if Telomerase Activation equals serious risk of cancer....well then Telomerase Activation is a dead horse. It's either one or the other....and if Telomerase Activation is where you're going to place your bet at this time (by using a Telomerase Activator) then you will want a product that can get the job done rather than waste your precious time and money on a weak and iffy unproven product with no proven research of any kind other than a salesman's promise. And BTW...at this point in time....if any product increases Telomerase, it's going to be globally as none of the science is able to exhibit targeted Telomerase Activation...in fact any Telomerase Activation is still questionable . And in regard to consuming "only botanical based products with a long history of safe use"....Well the claim with Product B is that they use special proprietary fractionated extracts unavailable anywhere else.....and if this is the case...it is far from "products with a long history of safe use".

[Louis]

>> You can't say Telomerase activation is safe with one product and not a different product. If Telomerase activation causes a risk of cancer...well than any product that increases Telomerase is going to be a risk.

I don't disgagree with that statement in the slightest. Assuming product B does in fact activate telomerase by coaxing the repressor protein off hTERT, the theoretical increased cancer risk is there as well.

But the compunds in product B have multiple effects besides their direct action on the repressor protein that turns off hTERT. The cancer risk must be evaluated as a whole.

Each of the top 6 ingredients (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) has demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vitro through multiple mechanisms not involving telomerase. Four out of six have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vivo in small mammals. Silymarin and curcumin have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in human clinical trials. And every single one of these 6 ingredients has been demonstrated to inhibit telomerase in vitro in various cancer cell lines. What we're likely dealing with here are compounds that coax the hTERT repressor protein off its binding site in healthy somatic cells (so-called inducers), but simultaneously inhibit telomerase expression in cancer cells via alternative mechanisms that do not involve the repressor protein. If any of these compounds caused the repressor protein to bind more tightly to the repressor site, Sierra's screens would have detected it -- because that's exactly what they're screening for. An inducer needs to penetrate the cell and reach the DNA to remove the repressor. If the said compound reaches hTERT, then it's also reaching oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes on the same strands of DNA and exerting its proven antineoplastic activity via other means demonstrated in 100's of medline-indexed publications in the case of these 6 ingredients.

In summary, I consider these 6 compounds the lesser of all evils because they have been used safely in humans for many years, because they exert anti-cancer effects by many different proven mechanisms not involving telomerase, and because they inhibit telomerase in cancer cells.

>> And in regard to consuming "only botanical based products with a long history of safe use"....Well the claim with Product B is that they use special proprietary fractionated extracts unavailable anywhere else.....and if this is the case...it is far from "products with a long history of safe use".

To my knowledge, neither Isagenix or Bill Andrews has ever made that claim. If we do find out in the future that product B contains highly fractionated/purified compounds that have no history of safe use at those doses in humans, then the issue is easily resolved by takng the key ingredients as separate standardized products where the level of purification and fractionation is well known.

[Product-B-User]

When you attend sales seminars at Isagenix, do they tell that a good tactic for dealing with people who don't buy your hucksterism is to tell them they are being "negative" or "angry"? Do they tell you to suggest that they don't deserve to live to 150 because they aren't happy enough?

Please lose the smileys. They aren't helping.

"When you attend sales seminars at Isagenix, do they tell that a good tactic for dealing with people who don't buy your hucksterism is to tell them they are being "negative" or "angry"?"

Of course not, that is an independent observation :( AND is proof that I am NOT trying to "sell" stuff. I'm not desperate for cash, am not greedy and am actually quite happy having "sufficient for my needs".

"Please lose the smileys. They aren't helping."

Aren't helping with what? Helping you be happier?....I don't understand, please expound on what it is they are not helping with.

Now lighten up, Niner, it's Christmas. It's time to cultivate joyous state of mind....take a chill pill will ya?

[Product-B-User]

When you attend sales seminars at Isagenix, do they tell that a good tactic for dealing with people who don't buy your hucksterism is to tell them they are being "negative" or "angry"? Do they tell you to suggest that they don't deserve to live to 150 because they aren't happy enough?

Please lose the smileys. They aren't helping.

"When you attend sales seminars at Isagenix, do they tell that a good tactic for dealing with people who don't buy your hucksterism is to tell them they are being "negative" or "angry"?"

Of course not, that is an independent observation :( AND is proof that I am NOT trying to "sell" stuff. I'm not desperate for cash, am not greedy and am actually quite happy having "sufficient for my needs".

"Please lose the smileys. They aren't helping."

Aren't helping with what? Helping you be happier?....I don't understand, please expound on what it is they are not helping with.

Now lighten up, Niner, it's Christmas. It's time to cultivate joyous state of mind....take a chill pill will ya?

By the way, I've only been to 1 Isagenix event and that was Celebration in August because Sierra Sciences would be there and Product B was being launched. I'm NOT your typical Network Marketer. I market a book called "The 7 Great Lies of Network Marketing because I'm descusted with traditional MLM tactics. Have said that, Isagenix isn't nearly as bad at hype as most companies out there. I was very pleased when I attended celebration.

[Product-B-User]

>> You can't say Telomerase activation is safe with one product and not a different product. If Telomerase activation causes a risk of cancer...well than any product that increases Telomerase is going to be a risk.

I don't disgagree with that statement in the slightest. Assuming product B does in fact activate telomerase by coaxing the repressor protein off hTERT, the theoretical increased cancer risk is there as well.

But the compunds in product B have multiple effects besides their direct action on the repressor protein that turns off hTERT. The cancer risk must be evaluated as a whole.

Each of the top 6 ingredients (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) has demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vitro through multiple mechanisms not involving telomerase. Four out of six have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vivo in small mammals. Silymarin and curcumin have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in human clinical trials. And every single one of these 6 ingredients has been demonstrated to inhibit telomerase in vitro in various cancer cell lines. What we're likely dealing with here are compounds that coax the hTERT repressor protein off its binding site in healthy somatic cells (so-called inducers), but simultaneously inhibit telomerase expression in cancer cells via alternative mechanisms that do not involve the repressor protein. If any of these compounds caused the repressor protein to bind more tightly to the repressor site, Sierra's screens would have detected it -- because that's exactly what they're screening for. An inducer needs to penetrate the cell and reach the DNA to remove the repressor. If the said compound reaches hTERT, then it's also reaching oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes on the same strands of DNA and exerting its proven antineoplastic activity via other means demonstrated in 100's of medline-indexed publications in the case of these 6 ingredients.

In summary, I consider these 6 compounds the lesser of all evils because they have been used safely in humans for many years, because they exert anti-cancer effects by many different proven mechanisms not involving telomerase, and because they inhibit telomerase in cancer cells.

>> And in regard to consuming "only botanical based products with a long history of safe use"....Well the claim with Product B is that they use special proprietary fractionated extracts unavailable anywhere else.....and if this is the case...it is far from "products with a long history of safe use".

To my knowledge, neither Isagenix or Bill Andrews has ever made that claim. If we do find out in the future that product B contains highly fractionated/purified compounds that have no history of safe use at those doses in humans, then the issue is easily resolved by takng the key ingredients as separate standardized products where the level of purification and fractionation is well known.

Wow, what a response. Thank you for educating yourself so well.

[niner]

Now lighten up, Niner, it's Christmas. It's time to cultivate joyous state of mind....take a chill pill will ya?

If you don't stop spamming this forum with unsupported hype and Snake Oil Salesmanship, your posting privileges will be revoked. People come here for factual information and discussion, not for spam.

[Ali Myer]

I don't know much about product B but every interested as it is cheap than cycloastragenol. I began taking Cycloastragenol about 6 months ago. I started out with 5mg a day. I am a person that is not content with being in good physical condition “for my age”. The low price and high quality of the crackaging products allow me to take a higher dosage that better suits my needs. The charted success of my workouts and recovery far exceed and placebo effect with this product. I can exceed any military physical fitness test in the age 18 class as I approach middle age. I am at my peak. But now I got to know product B. Seems a good and cheap alternative.

[malden]

Where dit you get it from?


(Ot sounds like advertising)

[hav]

...
Each of the top 6 ingredients (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) has demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vitro through multiple mechanisms not involving telomerase. Four out of six have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vivo in small mammals. Silymarin and curcumin have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in human clinical trials. And every single one of these 6 ingredients has been demonstrated to inhibit telomerase in vitro in various cancer cell lines...

Although I realize there is some disagreement among the experts here, that's the main reason I fear that Product-B might neutralize telomerase activating properties of astragalus extracts and TA65 itself. Since I don't know for sure, I continue to take resveratrol, silymarin and other anti-oxidants on alternate weeks when I'm not taking astragalus extracts and purslane. Perhaps Product-B User / vendor might ask Isagenix and/or Sierra if they recommend taking Product-B and TA65 at the same time. I'd love to know.

The one nod I've given to Product-B is that I've moved Haritaki (aka, Terminalia chebula, Myrobalan) from my astragalus to my resveratrol stack. Mainly because its not strictly speaking a telomerase activator but something that protects telomeres from telomerase inhibitors. And that it might thwart the negative effects on telomeres which resveratrol and the other anti-oxidants might otherwise have.

Howard

[hav]

Euhhhh yes ... please "focus" on product B. No more cleansing product info... Please. If you bring in cleansing, now that's when i'll think you are pushing for isagenix. C'mon !!

I apologize, I was asked and I responded, but should have sent a private message. This is the first forum I've found interest in spending time on, not too savvy on them....

I think there may be some tangential relevance. I've always believed that high fiber things like wheat bran, oat bran, and psyllium husks tend to remove sludge and other crud from intestinal walls and thereby improve absorption and increase the bio-availability of herbal supplements generally. So its my practice to take a cleansing product about a half hour before taking my supplements in the morning.

I think the most powerful liver cleanse in Product-B is silymarin. RevGenetics has an even more potent bupleurum extract in their p16 product.

Howard

[Hebbeh]

Euhhhh yes ... please "focus" on product B. No more cleansing product info... Please. If you bring in cleansing, now that's when i'll think you are pushing for isagenix. C'mon !!

I apologize, I was asked and I responded, but should have sent a private message. This is the first forum I've found interest in spending time on, not too savvy on them....

I think there may be some tangential relevance. I've always believed that high fiber things like wheat bran, oat bran, and psyllium husks tend to remove sludge and other crud from intestinal walls and thereby improve absorption and increase the bio-availability of herbal supplements generally. So its my practice to take a cleansing product about a half hour before taking my supplements in the morning.

I think the most powerful liver cleanse in Product-B is silymarin. RevGenetics has an even more potent bupleurum extract in their p16 product.

Howard

What is all this talk about "sludge and crud from the intestinal wall"? The intestinal wall is by design, mucosal tissue (a natural marvel that works very well) and by design, nothing sticks to mucosal tissue. That's like sticking to teflon. The intestinal wall has goblet cells its whole length constantly producing mucus which is a natural wonder lubricant whose job is to prevent what you claim...and it works amazingly well. Ask any gastroenterologist about all this sludge they see stuck to the intestinal wall when doing colonoscopies and they will have a good laugh...because it doesn't exist. And how do you "cleanse" the liver? Silymarin is a potent liver protectant but it doesn't have anything to do with any kind of "cleanse". It has powerful anti-oxidant properties that target liver cells to protect the liver from the stress of toxins that can damage the liver cells as it does its job of filtering our blood...but it's not a soap or cleaner....just like the colon...and all other body parts, nature has done a marvelous job of designing the living body to work just the way it is....and doesn’t need any so called "cleanse" even if you could.

[Louis]

...
Each of the top 6 ingredients (milk thistle, horny goat weed, grape seed extract, turmeric, ashwagandha, bacopa) has demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vitro through multiple mechanisms not involving telomerase. Four out of six have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in vivo in small mammals. Silymarin and curcumin have demonstrated antineoplastic activity in human clinical trials. And every single one of these 6 ingredients has been demonstrated to inhibit telomerase in vitro in various cancer cell lines...

Although I realize there is some disagreement among the experts here, that's the main reason I fear that Product-B might neutralize telomerase activating properties of astragalus extracts and TA65 itself. Since I don't know for sure, I continue to take resveratrol, silymarin and other anti-oxidants on alternate weeks when I'm not taking astragalus extracts and purslane. Perhaps Product-B User / vendor might ask Isagenix and/or Sierra if they recommend taking Product-B and TA65 at the same time. I'd love to know.

The one nod I've given to Product-B is that I've moved Haritaki (aka, Terminalia chebula, Myrobalan) from my astragalus to my resveratrol stack. Mainly because its not strictly speaking a telomerase activator but something that protects telomeres from telomerase inhibitors. And that it might thwart the negative effects on telomeres which resveratrol and the other anti-oxidants might otherwise have.

Howard

Bill Andrews takes Product B and TA-65 at the same time. He addressed the question of dietary supplements inhibiting telomerase in a public June 2011 interview. The common supplements that inhibit telomerase in cancer cell lines do NOT do so in the Sierra Sciences screen.

You can find the transcript and audio of that interview here:
http://100isnew50.com/?sta1
(You must enter a name and email to view it.)

I will quote directly from the transcript:

Q: "Hi Bill, are there any supplements that you recommend not taking because you've discovered that they actually reduce telomerase expression in your lab screens?"

A: "There are none that I know of that aren't safe. Of course you don't want to take gasoline or something like that. There's been a few publications suggesting that there are supplements that can interfere with telomerase activity. We have checked every one of them in our labs here, and we have not been able to find that any of them have any significant effect on telomerase activity."

[Louis]

There's no question that these ingredients inhibit telomerase in various cancer cell lines. There are many papers proving this. But they do NOT appear to do so in the non-cancerous cell lines used in testing compounds at Sierra Sciences.

This is all unpublished data of course, so you either have to "take Bill's word for it" or choose not to believe it until there's actually some real published peer-reviewed papers to support it. I think both viewpoints have merit; it's ultimately up to everyone to decide for themselves.

[Anthony_Loera]

Again, I cannot personally recommend Product B. And yes, we have tested it. Publication will be out soon.

Cheers
A

[Louis]

Looking forward to reading it. Are you self-publishing it on your website, or will it appear in a journal?

[jamesagreen]

At this time I am developing notes on Product B components at
http://greenwdks.for...fexnotes11.html - The Product B Explorer.
Some ingredients may have been identified as having desirable telomerase-activating
properties by entirely proprietary tests at Sierra Sciences. However, the existing
literature contains clues as to which Product B components are most likely to
have these properties independently of proprietary research. There is a backup
copy at http://greenray.free...fexnotes11.html .

[hav]

What is all this talk about "sludge and crud from the intestinal wall"? The intestinal wall is by design, mucosal tissue (a natural marvel that works very well) and by design, nothing sticks to mucosal tissue. That's like sticking to teflon. The intestinal wall has goblet cells its whole length constantly producing mucus which is a natural wonder lubricant whose job is to prevent what you claim...and it works amazingly well.

FWIW, I got that idea from my doctor immediately before a prescribed colonoscopy exam. At which time I was also prescribed a 3 day gastrointestinal cleanse... I don't recall the exact brand name of the prescription but at the time I did investigate the contents and it was a bran/psyllium blend. The impression I got from my doctor was that the cleanse was necessary because my intestinal walls were quite unlike teflon and that a cleaning would facilitate the exam. I'm not a medical professional so maybe I totally misunderstood why the cleanse was prescribed. But I liked the idea and have been taking my own blend ever since.

Howard

[Moonlitnight]

What is all this talk about "sludge and crud from the intestinal wall"? The intestinal wall is by design, mucosal tissue (a natural marvel that works very well) and by design, nothing sticks to mucosal tissue. That's like sticking to teflon. The intestinal wall has goblet cells its whole length constantly producing mucus which is a natural wonder lubricant whose job is to prevent what you claim...and it works amazingly well.

FWIW, I got that idea from my doctor immediately before a prescribed colonoscopy exam. At which time I was also prescribed a 3 day gastrointestinal cleanse... I don't recall the exact brand name of the prescription but at the time I did investigate the contents and it was a bran/psyllium blend. The impression I got from my doctor was that the cleanse was necessary because my intestinal walls were quite unlike teflon and that a cleaning would facilitate the exam. I'm not a medical professional so maybe I totally misunderstood why the cleanse was prescribed. But I liked the idea and have been taking my own blend ever since.

Howard

As someone who spent the first three years of her working life as a pathology technician at St. Mary's Hospital in London, and much of this time cleaning out human intestines for pathologists to dissect following removal due to carcinomas, I can assure you that there is indeed a lot of "'crud" stuck on intestinal walls (at least those that aren't very healthy). Much of what is in there washes out easily. But some is very impacted and has to be poked at. It's a job I'd prefer not to remember.

[hav]

And how do you "cleanse" the liver? Silymarin is a potent liver protectant but it doesn't have anything to do with any kind of "cleanse". It has powerful anti-oxidant properties that target liver cells to protect the liver from the stress of toxins that can damage the liver cells as it does its job of filtering our blood...but it's not a soap or cleaner....just like the colon...and all other body parts, nature has done a marvelous job of designing the living body to work just the way it is....and doesn’t need any so called "cleanse" even if you could.

I think you are probably right on that one. I just did a search in pubmed on liver cleanse and the 6 hits all seem to be about clearing toxins following a liver failure and none mentioned silymarin. All the silymarin liver hits had to do with preventing liver failure and repairing damage to the liver and maintaining liver health. So the idea of silymarin being a liver cleanse is probably a colloquial usage for the process of repairing and maintaining the health of the liver enough to clean out the toxins that a healthy liver does on its own.

Blupurium (not contained in Product B) cleanse is another matter. 183 pubmed hits on that. 6 of which pertain to liver cleanse specifically. Apparently a more broad and perhaps more potent cleanse that silymarin.

Howard

[Hebbeh]

What is all this talk about "sludge and crud from the intestinal wall"? The intestinal wall is by design, mucosal tissue (a natural marvel that works very well) and by design, nothing sticks to mucosal tissue. That's like sticking to teflon. The intestinal wall has goblet cells its whole length constantly producing mucus which is a natural wonder lubricant whose job is to prevent what you claim...and it works amazingly well.

FWIW, I got that idea from my doctor immediately before a prescribed colonoscopy exam. At which time I was also prescribed a 3 day gastrointestinal cleanse... I don't recall the exact brand name of the prescription but at the time I did investigate the contents and it was a bran/psyllium blend. The impression I got from my doctor was that the cleanse was necessary because my intestinal walls were quite unlike teflon and that a cleaning would facilitate the exam. I'm not a medical professional so maybe I totally misunderstood why the cleanse was prescribed. But I liked the idea and have been taking my own blend ever since.

Howard

Prior to a colonoscopy, the doctor routinely prescribes a laxative so that you poop and void your bowels....they can't get the scope up your rectum if it is blocked by feces....it is simply to get the poop out so it's not in the way of their job...nothing about the poop stuck to the walls of your colon....once you pass the feces from your last meal, you are clean as a whistle. You could achieve the same thing by fasting for 2 or 3 days...but surprisingly, most people won't adhere to a 3 day fast so as to clear and void all the previous days digested food from their digestive tract and colon....so the doctor prescribes a simple laxative to speed the process up. BTW...you’re taking a bunch of fiber a half hour before your supplements....that fiber very likely hasn't passed your stomach and certainly hasn't passed the small intestine. The purpose of fiber is to absorb and "hold" fluid in the digestive tract...like a sponge…in other words, it prevents that fluid (and whatever is dissolved in the fluid) from being absorbed into the blood stream....the amount of fluid the fiber can absorb and hold like a sponge, will pass on through the digestive tract and out the colon and rectum...that is how fiber makes you poop easier...anyway...more than likely, in your case the fluid very likely contains a percentage of your dissolved supplements...it more than likely is doing the exact opposite of what you intend...the dissolved supplements mix into the fluid that is absorbed by the fiber and is eventually passed out the rectum and never gets absorbed by the body...that is how fiber prevents you from absorbing a percentage of dietary cholesterol for example...the fiber absorbs the dietary cholesterol and passes it out through the rectum along with whatever else the fiber absorbs. Also, the fiber does get digested into feces...so it this feces was "sticking" to your digestive tract (which is doesn't), then fiber would be just as likely to stick as anything else you ate and digested into feces....but as I said, feces doesn't stick...it slides on through. If I could leave one last suggestion....I would ditch the fiber before your supplements as it most certainly is preventing a percentage of your supplements from being absorbed and taken up by the blood stream as they’re "trapped" in the fluid that is absorbed by the fiber like a sponge.

[Hebbeh]

What is all this talk about "sludge and crud from the intestinal wall"? The intestinal wall is by design, mucosal tissue (a natural marvel that works very well) and by design, nothing sticks to mucosal tissue. That's like sticking to teflon. The intestinal wall has goblet cells its whole length constantly producing mucus which is a natural wonder lubricant whose job is to prevent what you claim...and it works amazingly well.

FWIW, I got that idea from my doctor immediately before a prescribed colonoscopy exam. At which time I was also prescribed a 3 day gastrointestinal cleanse... I don't recall the exact brand name of the prescription but at the time I did investigate the contents and it was a bran/psyllium blend. The impression I got from my doctor was that the cleanse was necessary because my intestinal walls were quite unlike teflon and that a cleaning would facilitate the exam. I'm not a medical professional so maybe I totally misunderstood why the cleanse was prescribed. But I liked the idea and have been taking my own blend ever since.

Howard

As someone who spent the first three years of her working life as a pathology technician at St. Mary's Hospital in London, and much of this time cleaning out human intestines for pathologists to dissect following removal due to carcinomas, I can assure you that there is indeed a lot of "'crud" stuck on intestinal walls (at least those that aren't very healthy). Much of what is in there washes out easily. But some is very impacted and has to be poked at. It's a job I'd prefer not to remember.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that people die after eating and before pooping. People should be required to fast and void before being allowed to die. I've never ever heard of a doctor finding all this stuck "crud" in a patient who follows protocol before a colonoscopy. I grew up on a ranch and we did our own butchering. I also did a lot of hunting when younger...deer, elk, etc. I've gutted and field dressed more game, steers and pigs than I can remember...and if you're not careful...and you perforate the intestine in the process...you have a heck of a mess...because EVERYTHING comes right out...and gets on the meat. I've seen it happen and afterward the intestine is completely clean. In fact, some use intestines for sausage casings...because they are so clean one you dump the feces out.

edit: wanted to add that intestines were the original sausage casings and used up until very modern history and intestines were the original comdoms....they could of never been freely used like this if they had feces inpacted and stuck in them...you would damage them in trying to clean out all this stuck crud...but that's not the case the feces drops right out and leaves them clean as a whistle...simple rinse...and then sausage...that is the truth.

Edited by Hebbeh, 30 December 2011 - 11:53 PM.

[Moonlitnight]

I take your response as either ignorant or trying to be funny. These colons were from live patients (histology and pathology often utilize the same labs). Deer are likely not exposed to the same types of unnatural preservatives, stabilizers and what-not as much of humankind.

[Hebbeh]

I take your response as either ignorant or trying to be funny. These colons were from live patients (histology and pathology often utilize the same labs). Deer are likely not exposed to the same types of unnatural preservatives, stabilizers and what-not as much of humankind.

Read my post again...intestines are still used in parts of the world as sausage casings....if what you are saying is common and true....consuming intestines would be unhealthy and impossible...but that's not the case...and I've seen it with my own eyes for a lifetime. I guess i can't say for sure what might be the case if some body dies of colon cancer...but is certainly not the case for the other 99% of us.