602 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

Turnbuckle,,

You should ask Maxwatt about that joint pain item, as i think you have it backwards.

Cheers
A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle,,

You should ask Maxwatt about that joint pain item, as i think you have it backwards.

Cheers
A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

I don't have to ask anyone. The stuff caused me terrible pain and the pain went away when I stopped taking it.

[Anthony_Loera]

Then i personally believe that you are one of the few that may have a genetic disposition to gout, and you cant use it as much as most other people.

Read about resveratrol's heart protection through adenosine... then read about adenosine and gout, as adenosine can increase uric acid..

For most people without the predisposition to gout, resveratrol is believed to help... not hinder, regarding joints.

Sorry it didnt work out well for you, but it really helps a lot of people.

Cheers
A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 25 August 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Then i personally believe that you are one of the few that may have a genetic disposition to gout, and you cant use it as much as most other people.

And you make the diagnosis of gout based on what information? How about Elaine, how do you know she doesn't have gout?

[niner]

Resveratrol acts as an anti-inflammatory for most people, but for some people, it causes tendon/joint problems through a different mechanism, which some think is related to aromatase inhibition. Maxwatt says that if you have sufficient vitamin D levels, it's unlikely to be a problem. The pain, if it occurs, usually resolves upon stopping resveratrol, though there have been isolated reports of lingering problems.

[Elaine-]

yeah, i'm just not willing to risk it....

[Anthony_Loera]

Turnbuckle,

As i already mentioned, she should ask her doctor about resveratrol, and if her doc tells her not to take resveratrol, that she should follow doctors orders.

Cheers
A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

[Louis]

Hi All,

I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion -- but there's some breaking news here, which I know many of you will be interesetd in.

The world patent application on product B has finally been made available to the public. You can find the text here.
http://patentscope.w...=PCTDescription

The invention description section of the patent application contains a wealth of previously unpublished information on newly discovered phytochemicals that activate telomerase. It's a real goldmine!

Happy reading,
Louis

[Louis]

I've summarized some of the hilites below.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The key ingredient in the original version of product B (the version at the time of the patent filing) is silymarin. It seems that version1 of product B was ~50% silymarin by weight.

Quoting from section 0028 of the patent:

[0028] Based on the test results, silymarin is identified as a significant potential telomerase inducer. Regular ingestion by an individual of effective amounts of silymarin extracted from milk thistle is expected to reverse telomere shortening in the individual and produce longer telomeres.

It appears that the telomerase activating capability of silymarin varies quite a bit with how the silymarin is extracted and/or prepared. Several examples are listed in the patent.

[0020] JWA 009230011 (C0316639) [Silymarin at 80% concentration] Three positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 47.34 (4-fold less than C0057684).

[0021] JWA 92510024 (C0316656) [ Silymarin at 80% concentrate using varied extraction method] Two positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 5.56 (16-fold less than C0057684).

[0022] JWAl 00510-32 (C0316679) [Silymarin extract at 80%] Two positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 12.50 (13-fold less than C0057684) and a standard deviation of 15.84.

[0023] JWAl 00510-37 (C0316684) [Resveratrol purified extract] Two positive replicates at 37.04 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 7.05 (24-fold less than C0057684) and a standard deviation of 6.86; two positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 42.43 (4-fold less than C0057684) and a standard deviation of 48.09.

[0024] JWAl 00510-39 (C0316686) [Silymarin extract 78% concentration spry dried] Three positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 66.85 (2.5-fold less than C0057684) and a standard deviation of 13.10.

[0025] JWA100510-41 (C0316688) [Silymarin at 75% from crude milk thistle] Two positive replicates at 111.11 μg/mL, with an average hTN of 64.03 (2.5-fold less than C0057684) and a standard deviation of 64.45.

For reference, C0057684 (referred to above) was the very first telomerase activating compound (synthetic) discovered by Sierra Sciences, and they now use it as a positive control in their experiments. Based on the fact that Sierra has publicly stated C0057684 tests at ~6% of HeLa, we can infer the strength of the 5 preparations of silymarin identified in the patent:

[0020] JWA 009230011 = 6%/4 = 1.5% of HeLa
[0021] JWA 92510024 = 6%/16 = 0.375% of HeLa
[0022] JWA1 00510-32 = 6%/13 = 0.46% of HeLa
[0024] JWA1 100510-39 = 6%/2.5 = 2.4% of HeLa
[0025] JWA1 100510-41 = 6%/2.5 = 2.4% of HeLa

It's interesting that they also report on a preparation of resveratrol that has some significant telomerase activating capability in their screen:

[0023] JWA1 00510-37 = 6%/4 = 1.5% of HeLa

The patent goes on to list many other telomerase activating compounds identified in the Sierra Sciences RT-PCR screen. The combination of many of these other natural componds comprise much of the remaing 50% of product B by weight:

[0026] Follow-on testing of additional samples was undertaken using the same methodology. Hits were obtained on samples containing by horny goat weed (Epimedium sagittatum), Grape Seed (Vitis vinifera), Turmeric (Curcuma longa), Bacopa (Bacopa monnieri), Pomegranate (Punica granatum), DL-alpha lipoic acid, Asian ginseng, (Panax ginseng), Green Tea, White Tea, Black Tea (Camellia sinensis), Acacia (Acacia nilotica), Plantain (Plantago major), L-glutathione, Velvet Bean (Mucuna pruriens), Hawthorn (root) (Crataegus pinnatifida), Quercetin, Boswellia, (Boswellia serrata), Maca (Lepidium meyenii), Hawthorn (fruit) (Crataegus pinnatifida), Resveratrol, Harada (Terminalia chebula), Shilajit, Chia (Salvia hispanica), N-Curcusorb (trade name for version of Turmeric), Polygonum Cuspidatum (trans resveratrol), pterostibene, (a synthetic form of resveratrol developed by ChronaDex Company), Tumipure (trade name for Turmeric ingredient by Naturex Company).

Note that they do NOT quote hTN scores or strength relative to C0057684 on any of the above natural compounds in the patent, so we have no way of knowing the HeLa scores. But I'm guessing that most of these other ingredients are very weak compared to silymarin. It's quite remarkable, however, that so many other naturally occurring (and widely available) compounds have the ability to weakly turn on telomerase in human BJ (skin) fibroblast cells, the cell line used in the Sierra RT-PCR screen.

Note also that there there are dozens of publications suggesting that these same natural compounds listed above suppress telomerase in various cancer cell lines. I believe this patent powerfully supports a point I made several times earlier in this thread. The mechanisms involving the induction/suppression of the telomerase enzyme in a cancer cell and a healthy somatic cell are completely different. The mechanism in a cancer cell is messy, complictaed, and poorly defined. In a cancer cell, telomerase is induced by a bird's nest of accumulated mutations -- unique to every indivdual cancer cell. The mechanism in a healthly somatic cell is well-defined and fairly well understood -- and is essentially the same in all somatic cells. The same compound can both suppress telomerase in cancer cells, yet induce it in healthy somatic/stem cells. When you take these compounds above, you are probably getting the best of both worlds -- both preventing cancer and weakly activating telomerase at the same time!
　
　

[Hebbeh]

yeah, i'm just not willing to risk it....

If so, you should be aware that Product B contains resveratrol....along with everything else but the kitchen sink. It's a shotgun approach and as such, you will have no way of knowing what ingredient is doing what. You may want to study the ingredient list closely.

[Hebbeh]

The patent goes on to list many other telomerase activating compounds identified in the Sierra Sciences RT-PCR screen. The combination of many of these other natural componds comprise much of the remaing 50% of product B by weight:

[0026] Follow-on testing of additional samples was undertaken using the same methodology. Hits were obtained on samples containing by horny goat weed (Epimedium sagittatum), Grape Seed (Vitis vinifera), Turmeric (Curcuma longa), Bacopa (Bacopa monnieri), Pomegranate (Punica granatum), DL-alpha lipoic acid, Asian ginseng, (Panax ginseng), Green Tea, White Tea, Black Tea (Camellia sinensis), Acacia (Acacia nilotica), Plantain (Plantago major), L-glutathione, Velvet Bean (Mucuna pruriens), Hawthorn (root) (Crataegus pinnatifida), Quercetin, Boswellia, (Boswellia serrata), Maca (Lepidium meyenii), Hawthorn (fruit) (Crataegus pinnatifida), Resveratrol, Harada (Terminalia chebula), Shilajit, Chia (Salvia hispanica), N-Curcusorb (trade name for version of Turmeric), Polygonum Cuspidatum (trans resveratrol), pterostibene, (a synthetic form of resveratrol developed by ChronaDex Company), Tumipure (trade name for Turmeric ingredient by Naturex Company).

[Elaine-]

Anthony, i wrote your company asking for a refund, but got no response, except something automated....

exciting news about the Product B!

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Elaine,

no problem on the refund... however, Product B also has Resveratrol.

I suppose the news about Product B is bad for you, since resveratrol is one of the ingredients in it.

I think many folks here would wonder what's going on, if you kept Product B with it's resveratrol. Heck, I certainly would find it strange.

Cheers
A

[Elaine-]

i'm not really thinking about people wondering if i'm strange, i'm not sleeping, i'm very depressed and..... don't care lol

[Anthony_Loera]

Alrighty then!

A

[Elaine-]

so you're worried about my reputation because i returned your product and it's strange, and you're not worried about the fact that i'm not sleeping and depressed and don't care? you might want to worry that people will find that strange, i know i do :P

[Logic]

Elaine
I would definatly try resveratrol if I were you.
Just be sure to take the correct dose of vit D with it. As Niner said.
If it does not work for you; stop.

I would also try Coconut Oil.
Basically its known to be anti viral/bacterial/fungal and CFS has been asociated with some virus or other. Epstein Barr I think?
The MCTs in it are also an alternate scource of energy to carbohydrates.

Back on topic:
Thx Louis; very interesting info!
The same opinion on telomerase activators in healthy cells being supressors in cancer cells has been forming in my mind.
As usual more studies on this would be great.

Edited by Logic, 26 August 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Elaine-]

thanks Logic, i happen to already have a big jar of organic coconut oil and have been taking the vit D suggested... and yeah i can't wait for the human trial study to end, but heck i'm about to conduct my own mini trial lol

[GetMaxed]

I already take a number of those ingredients. Typically at dosages ranging from 100 mg to 500 mg. Which is probably on the low end of typical usage by most folks. Problem I see is that the Product B label lists 29 ingredients in its proprietary blend with a 2 capsule serving size which totals 1,070 mg. For an average of 37 mg per ingredient. Suggesting I'd really need from 6 to 14 capsules per serving to hit typical dosages for any of the ingredients. Just doesn't seem practical or cost effective to me. Unless somehow less is more.

Howard

Good spotting on the patent, had a close read through it. Here's the details on what ingredients make up most of the fomulation:

Capsules were approximately 470 mg, with 455 mg of activating ingredients and the balance a combination of vitamins C, E and B12 for stability and general health impacts..The activating ingredients comprised about 50% by weight milk thistle seed extract, about 25% in a combination of horny goat weed extract, grape seed extract, turmeric root extract, ashwagandha root extract, bacopa leaf extract, N-acetyl-L-cysteine, pomegranate fruit extract, DL-alpha lipoic acid, and Asian ginseng root extract, and 25% in a combination of berberine rhizome extract, bilberry fruit extract, blueberry fruit extract, red raspberry fruit extract, green tea leaf extract, white tea leaf extract, black tea leaf extract, acacia bark extract, plantain leaf extract, L-glutathione, velvet bean extract, hawthorn root extract, quercetin, boswellia fruit extract, maca root extract, hawthorn fruit extract, resveratrol, harada fruit extract, shillajit extract, and chia seed extract.

The most intresting part to know is what extraction methods were used on the Milk Thistle. I bought a bottle of it a while back to check it out and give it a try. Interested to see how it pans out, esp with further human clinicals.

One human test was given

WORKING EXAMPLE
[0063] An individual male, 52 years old, had his average telomere length tested by an independent laboratory, Spectracell Laboratories of Houston Texas. Spectracell starts with nucleated white blood cells taken from whole blood and uses the Quantitative PCR technique described in Cawthon, Telomere Measurement by Quantitative PCR, Nucleic Acids
Research, Vol. 30, No. 10 (2002). Initial testing yielded an average telomere length of 8.3 kp, putting the individual in the 78th percentile based on mean telomere length of his age group population.
[0064] The individual began a regimen of taking capsules of Product B, the formulation described above. Three capsules (465 mg each) in the morning and three in the evening were ingested daily, and the subject was re-tested four months later. Using the same methodology, testing yielded an average telomere length of 8.44 kp, putting the individual in the 83rd percentile.

[Anthony_Loera]

Elaine,

The studies done on the TA stuff show only physical improvements that may not work for your depression. I believe no one that has purchased a telomerase activator from us, has ever mentioned any changes or improvements to depression or similar issues that you currently have. While on the other hand, when taking resveratrol... they have reported many improvements.

Remember, i was the first to suggest resveratrol based on the issues you stated, and i did not suggest TA-65 because I don't think it will help at all with the fybromalgia or depression you have... again, resveratrol has been suggested by many for the issues you talked about.

If you want to push the MLM product, then that is up to you. But i am not going to candy coat my response to your posts because you are set in your position, and claim an illness.

There are drugs for depression, and you need to see your doctor instead of relying on the hype of an MLM to cure everything you may have when there is no justification, studies, or anecdotal evidence.

If you are sick, then I prefer for you to get pissed off at me go to your doctor and make better choices, rather than sit at home hoping for stuff.

Apparently you can afford spending a lot of cash on unproven products for your particular sickness rather than spend it on meds that are proven to help.

So it makes no sense to me that you are pushing product b, that has never been claimed to cure what you have.

Cheers
A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

[Turnbuckle]

One human test was given

WORKING EXAMPLE
[0063] An individual male, 52 years old, had his average telomere length tested by an independent laboratory, Spectracell Laboratories of Houston Texas. Spectracell starts with nucleated white blood cells taken from whole blood and uses the Quantitative PCR technique described in Cawthon, Telomere Measurement by Quantitative PCR, Nucleic Acids Research, Vol. 30, No. 10 (2002). Initial testing yielded an average telomere length of 8.3 kp, putting the individual in the 78th percentile based on mean telomere length of his age group population.
[0064] The individual began a regimen of taking capsules of Product B, the formulation described above. Three capsules (465 mg each) in the morning and three in the evening were ingested daily, and the subject was re-tested four months later. Using the same methodology, testing yielded an average telomere length of 8.44 kp, putting the individual in the 83rd percentile.

So the length tested less than 2% longer. Is that even significant? Another laboratory doing this testing--lifelength.com--claims a mean variability of 5%. So one test that is just a fraction of the normal variability means nothing at all.

[GetMaxed]

Also with that example the person is taking 50% extra than the standard dose of two capsules twice a day. Just checked my bottle of it, a 2 capsule serve has 900mg of the formulation.

[Hebbeh]

exciting news about the Product B!

Hate to pop your bubble but it appears you were hoodwinked by a MLM salesman. The only thing exciting about Product B is all the money to be made selling a worthless but highly hyped kitchen sink product typical of all pyramid MLM schemes...nothing more and nothing less.

And what about that resveratrol in Product B? Why isn't that a concern? Of course it's probably a miniscule amount anyway...just like the rest of the ingredient list.

Best of luck and hope you find your answer.

[Elaine-]

the miniscule amount is exactly the reason, and i'm not 'pushing' anything, i don't know what that means, usually a pusher is selling something, something bad... and all i did was watch an anti aging video by bill and decide to try product B, i was hoodwinked by bill if anybody, and want to try product B myself to see if BILL is full of crap... i have no hate for marketing thru an mlm system, and no hate for mlm people that actually speak about a product marketed that way.... and i don't respond to that kind of hate in others as something logical or to be taken into account...

anyway, i am depressed because my parents died, and i don't 'claim' that my parents died, and i don't know why whenever i join a forum i end up defending myself against manipulative people...

i'm buying product B to see if it will help me walk, and if it does, it's all good, and if it doesn't i won't buy anymore, simple as that... if that's called pushing something than i have to relearn my understanding of coloquialisms

[Anthony_Loera]

Elaine,

You come to this forum saying Product B is the best thing since sliced bread, yet you haven't tried it.

When asked what you are trying to achieve, you state illnesses that you are trying to overcome. Different people let you know that Product B will not help you, and i asked you to check out resveratrol if your doctor says its ok.

One person tells you not to try it because they had an issue, and instead of visiting your doctor to ask about any issues.. or ask for meds to help you with your condition...you say your scared and stop considering resveratrol altogether, yet at the same time you pack-peddle because the very thing that you talk about (mainly Product B) also has resveratrol.

A couple folks tell you that, and you feel like your defending yourself against manipulative people.

Elaine, be responsible and go see a doctor. Don't be childish about your health. You might consider yourself smart, but i personally believe these are posts of an emotional girl that hates to do what normal sane people do when they are sick. I bet friends find themselves dragging you kicking and screaming to the doctor, dentist, or a night out on the town.

Yes i want you to get angry at me. Elaine, i want you to make faces at the computer screen as you read my post, tell me i'm an ass, and get your blood boiling... then when you clench your fist to imagine your self smacking me upside the head... that energy, that hatred...use that energy in that rolled up fist of yours and the red face rage you have for me, and use it to get the strength you need to get your butt to the doctor and prove to me that your doctor is an incompetent retard and cannot do anything for you.

Get your butt up now, and go prove me wrong. Don't expect me to respond or consider your words to be credible anymore until you go see that evil doctor of your and prove to yourself he can't help you at all.

Heck print this whole thread and give it to him,, and tell him i will believe he is incompetent if you walk out of his office without being helped.

A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 26 August 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Elaine-]

nobody drags me kicking and screaming to the doctor or the dentist, i take good care of myself and i said nothing about whether product B was good or bad or indifferent, just that i was looking for people that had taken it to talk about it...

i see my doctor every two weeks, like any normal sick person...

i'm not angry at you Anthony, and i only cancelled your product because i hadn't done enuff of my own research on it, and i may go back to it later, but i only have so much to spend on an end of the month disability cheque

it's true that i'm EXTREMELY irritable right now, but it's not aimed at you in particular lol

[Anthony_Loera]

Your post history shows that you didnt even visit the threads that have to do with much else, or items that may help deal with your illnesses.

I suggest to search around and be informed before buying anything else.
In my book Product B will not cure your illness.

Louis,
will you back up my last statement, or do you believe it will cure her illnesses?
You are the expert on Product B, so let Elaine know what you think.

A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 27 August 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[Elaine-]

i don't know what a shill is, i'm just a person looking for info, first on TA-65 then on product B... but i'm glad you have nothing else to talk to me about because i find you very distasteful....

why would i visit threads that have to do with things that i'm not interested in? so that i'm not called names by you? i hope you keep your promise and don't talk to me anymore

[Elaine-]

anyway, since there is no help or information to be found on this forum, i'll go else where to ask questions and do research.... i'm very tender hearted right now and don't feel like being attacked for whatever the hell is going on in this place.... bye guys

[Anthony_Loera]

i find you very distasteful....

why would i visit threads that have to do with things that i'm not interested in?

Ok, so you don't care about dealing with your illnesses. It's just a sweet story to make people believe in your plight or gain sympathy?

Then it appears that the only reason you actually posted here was to market Product B, when all we wanted to do is steer you into a direction that would help you with the illnesses you described.

You know... puppet accounts and shills are not allowed on this forum. Many of such accounts have been blocked in the past.

Look up the definitions on google.

A

Circle me: https://profiles.goo...236572014252197

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 27 August 2012 - 12:07 AM.