602 replies to this topic

[Kenbar]

I'm copying this from my response to Kenbar on another thread in order to answer some of the people looking for a Product B update.

Please keep in mind that I don't represent the company other than as an authorized distributor, but I can continue to speak on this topic as a natural health advocate who recommends and uses Product B daily.

It seems the problem with getting good data published at this time is because of regulatory issues. The claims and representations for telomerase activators have not been established yet. Product B has a lot riding on it for the future and the company would rather stay mum on the ongoing studies than jeopardize that future. At this time, the word from our legal dept. is that distributors should not even talk about our personal results or the results we see personally in the field ever day, beyond standard "look better" "feel better" claims. An Orlando TV News show did a report on Product B and the statements made by a doctor and by the reporter exceeded the current standards for claims and representations allowed for nutritional supplements. I believe that contributed to the temporary black-out on Product B promotion. It is strictly word-of-mouth that is promoting it for the time being.

I can't give you a time frame for when this situation will change. All I can say now, from personal experience and much observation, is that I highly recommend the use of Product B every day. And that people who are interested in evidence-based anti-aging should pay close attention.

One last point for now. Because I am forced to be vague, and because of the pro-pharma, anti-supplement bent of this forum, I want to help open-minded readers to have confidence in Isagenix and Product B. So I want to direct you to information on successfully completed and published clinical studies on the Isagenix product line. These studies are impressive; many doctors have called them "ground-breaking".

This is a link to the Healthcare Professionals page on my PowerYourFreedom business opportunity team website. The University of Chicago study won the American Society For Nutrition (nutrition.org) award for obesity research last year, and the newly completed Skidmore College study preliminaries are now available. The Skidmore study is currently under peer-review.

http://www.poweryour...fessionals.html

 

I don`t know what to say. Seems simple enough to test mice to determine if there is a notable increase in life span. Much easier to rest on profit making assumptions, then produce facts that may run in conflict with the expectations of longer life spans. At this point, to me, the lack of follow up testing/verification cast a very dark cloud of doubt as to the effectiveness in the real world regarding life extending benefits. Probably 1% of the profits being made would be enough to fund many studies...and it seems like excuses abound as to why no proof is being brought to the table...while racking in huge profits....

 

Starting to look like a case of..."lets not find out cause it might be/could be/will be be the end of our profit making"

 

Nothing against you...it`s the company that is looking bad at this point, in my opinion.

 

Not sure if there have been follow up studies done on any of these "life extending" telomere products...perhaps the whole concept is flawed....

[PhilZulli]

blood; the clinical studies are based on our core nutritional program which includes several products. We do not sell a "weight-loss shake", but we do have the world's premier meal-replacement that features the highest grade of undenatured whey protein from New Zealand.

To be clear, I referred to the clinical studies to dispel the notion that Isagenix is "one of those MLM companies". We have over 25 full-time scientists, and several leading scientists on our Scientific Advisory Board, including Dr. Bill Andrews and Dr. Michael Colgan of the Colgan Institute. In addition to very significant weight-loss, the studies show impressive reductions in visceral fat, oxidative stress, and cardiovascular health markers such as total cholesterol, LDL, and triglycerides, and an increase in metabolism, which is very uncommon with weight-loss.

Isagenix represents the best of today's high-quality evidence-based nutritional supplements, formulated in complete and flexible programs that overcome the limitations of "magic-bullet" products and the piece-meal programs that most people cobble together themselves. Our ingredients sourcing and processing is second to none. All- natural, organic where possible, GMO-free, and gently processed to retain the natural properties of the ingredients. Most of our products, including Product B, were created by one of the world's Master Formulators.

Ultimately, results tell the story and that was the reason for posting these studies. No other company has demonstrated the level of results that Isagenix has.

I understand why many people have a low opinion of MLM nutritional companies, or nutritional companies in general. I know what goes on in our industry. Most of it is next to useless in my opinion. But not all of it.

These studies may allow people to have some level of believe in what Isagenix is accomplishing, and by extension may allow them to have some level of belief in Product B, so they may take advantage of the benefits before the clinicals are finally published.

[Kenbar]

"Ultimately, results tell the story and that was the reason for posting these studies. No other company has demonstrated the level of results that Isagenix has."

 

But what results are there that show life extension? The standard is to test mice. Demonstrate at least a solid foundation to build on by factually,  veritably showing in this case, longer life spans in mice. Otherwise saying we pay a 100 scientist and use the best corn...or whatever...means...well it`s nice...but does not mean the product extends life....just means the company is helping the unemployment problem paying smart folks from huge profits...and using good corn. I don`t mean to sound so exasperated with the whole thing...but while the years tick by...and while no, easy to come by proof, is provided that a product works...folks are spending their money on an unproven product. I`m not talking about the other products...this is not a weight loss forum....maybe they work great for that...I am only interested in proof that product B or any of these telomere products can/do extend life...in mice for a simple starting point.

[koala_muncher]

Hi guys - does anyone know if there are any mice studies in progress for product B?

[TRUGAN]

I've taken product b for several months and havent been impressed with it but I have noticed it makes my geographic tongue better and thats the only thing I can say it has done. I dont know what herb is responsible for it but I wish I did. I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this but maybe didnt realize it. It took me a while before I figured out the product b was making it better.

[Kenbar]

And that people who are interested in evidence-based anti-aging should pay close attention.

One last point for now. Because I am forced to be vague, and because of the pro-pharma, anti-supplement bent of this forum, I want to help open-minded readers to have confidence in Isagenix and Product B. So I want to direct you to information on successfully completed and published clinical studies on the Isagenix product line. These studies are impressive; many doctors have called them "ground-breaking".


http://www.poweryour...fessionals.html

 

 

I like to think folks here are open minded, but not fools either. Isagenix Product B, and other similar telomere products suggesting longer life spans...are just not bringing any real life mouse/rat studies to the table after all this time. 

[koala_muncher]

So it seems that Product B still doesn't have any hard evidence behind it and is mainly based on multi-level marketing hype and the personality of the inventor.  Would this be a fair assessment?  I haven't seen any hard anecdotal evidence either, eg individuals posting their telomere length before and after lab results.  Based on the premium charged with this product it seems it should not be part of any anti-aging stack.

[koala_muncher]

PhilZuli, this thread is about Product B, please direct your comments about other products (such as meal replacement) to another thread.  With all respect, you can have the best scientist in the world and a whole bunch of other "scientists" on the payroll, however this does not mean that Product B has good evidence for use for anti aging. If you can enlighten us on any new studies that are being done that may change this please advise.  This forum represents a  very clever group of people who know common fallacies and tactics such as "appeal to authority", "diversion", and "proof by example".

 

 

[TRUGAN]

I guess this is old news now but I just seen it.

 

 

http://www.isagenixh...s-on-product-b/

 

[koala_muncher]

I guess this is old news now but I just seen it.

 

 

http://www.isagenixh...s-on-product-b/

This is an unpublished study, nowhere could I find a reference to the draft manuscript of a preliminary report.  If anyone can find a link please kindly post it.

[Logic]

According to this new study Telomerase is only 'on' for a short period directly after genome duplication.
http://www.longecity...me-duplication/

So these telomerase activators must either:

• Increase the amount of telomerase for this short time.
• Add some critical component or function to the process that declines with aging.
• Work via the regulatory process that telomerase has on mitochondria/apoptosis etc.

I do hope someone more qualified than I will chip in with their thoughts.

According to this new study Telomerase is only 'on' for a short period directly after genome duplication.
http://www.longecity...me-duplication/

So these telomerase activators must either:

• Increase the amount of telomerase for this short time.
• Add some critical component or function to the process that declines with aging.
• Work via the regulatory process that telomerase has on mitochondria/apoptosis etc.

I do hope someone more qualified than I will chip in with their thoughts.

[niner]

There's no evidence that Product B lengthens telomeres at all, and no reason to believe that it should, since the ingredients that it contains have not been shown to lengthen telomeres in a mammal, or any animal as far as I'm aware.  The entire house of cards is built on an in vitro screening result where the poor solubility and bioavailability of the compound was completely bypassed.  The screening results say that if you could drench your cells in a high concentration of this stuff for a long time, you would get some telomerase activity.  However, there is no way to do that in a human, because we have elaborate and powerful systems that prevent xenobiotics from getting into circulation, and removing them if they do get in.

[Logic]

There's no evidence that Product B lengthens telomeres at all, and no reason to believe that it should, since the ingredients that it contains have not been shown to lengthen telomeres in a mammal, or any animal as far as I'm aware.  The entire house of cards is built on an in vitro screening result where the poor solubility and bioavailability of the compound was completely bypassed.  The screening results say that if you could drench your cells in a high concentration of this stuff for a long time, you would get some telomerase activity.  However, there is no way to do that in a human, because we have elaborate and powerful systems that prevent xenobiotics from getting into circulation, and removing them if they do get in.

 

Yep; I'm aware of that and agree.

I was actually hoping to get some feedback on the new study I  linked as  it changes the whole picture IMHO?

[PhilZulli]

Sorry I have not been able to respond sooner. My son died earlier this year and my focus was elsewhere.

The study referred to by MrWhitee and dismissed by koala_muncher will be published in a peer-reviewed journal in 2015.  It is an independent, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial conducted by researchers in the School of Nutrition and Health Promotion at Arizona State University.

Here is the link to the story posted on the Isagenix Health blog- http://www.isagenixh...s-on-product-b/ ,  I encourage those interested to read it.

From the article -
"“There have been large advances in telomere science, including direct measurements related to detecting cells with the shortest telomeres or average telomere length using sophisticated techniques,” said Isagenix Chief Science Officer Suk Cho, Ph.D. However, he added that to date, “There is yet to be a direct measure of telomeres that is reliable enough for an accurate measurement of telomere length for obtaining statistical significance in a clinical trial.”

But there’s good news. As Dr. Cho explained, “Leading telomere researchers agree that direct telomere testing is not where we’d like it. However, there is an indirect measurement that is supported in the scientific literature that is linked to telomere health.”

At the end of the study, the subjects using Product B showed a significant elevation of catalase in subjects’ red blood cells. Compared to those who took the placebo, the subjects on Product B had increased their catalase activity by more than 30 percent. The findings suggest profound benefits attributed to Product B supplementation.

 

One other important note - Product B is now called IsaGenesis.
This is the 4th generation of Product B. It features 20% more active ingredients as determined by Dr. Andrews' patented technologies, and is in a new soluble, lipid form for up to 10x greater absorption and bio-availablility.
 

[TRUGAN]

Not sure I fully understand.... So there is no evidence that it lengthens telomeres but elevation of catalese is good news for other reasons? or does elevated catalese suggest the telomeres are lenghthened but not solid proof?

Edited by mrwhitee, 24 September 2014 - 02:10 AM.

[PhilZulli]

From the article- Catalase "is an indirect measurement that is supported in the scientific literature that is linked to telomere health.”.

1. Cutler RG. Oxidative stress and aging: catalase is a longevity determinant enzyme. Rejuvenation Res 2005;8:138-40.
2. Schriner SE, Linford NJ, Martin GM et al. Extension of murine life span by overexpression of catalase targeted to mitochondria. Science 2005;308:1909-11.

 

Edited by PhilZulli, 24 September 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[niner]

Not sure I fully understand.... So there is no evidence that it lengthens telomeres but elevation of catalese is good news for other reasons? or does elevated catalese suggest the telomeres are lenghthened but not solid proof?

 

More catalase activity is probably a good thing, but it won't matter if you are also making more superoxide or peroxide at the same time.  I'd rather see some evidence that overall oxidative stress was reduced.  An increase in catalase activity might be a response to more ROS, for example, so it might be a bad sign instead of a good sign.  A reduction in oxidative stress might be expected to result in less loss of telomere length.  Telomeres are lost in cell division, but they are also lost by DNA damage, particularly oxidative damage.  DNA damage repair systems are pretty good, but not all of the systems that keep genomic DNA in good shape are active on the full length of telomeric DNA.

 

So what the latest press release is saying is that Product B doesn't exactly extend telomeres, but it might help to keep them from shrinking as much.  Or not, depending on the exact meaning of the increase in catalase activity.  It looks like there is no evidence that it has any effect at all on telomere length.

[PhilZulli]

Interpretation is based on the world view you support. We know what Product B/IsaGenesis does.
People can research the info, try it, and decide for themselves. Over time, when the polito-economics of telomere support has stabilized a bit, more can be revealed. We can be patient. Telomerase activation means a huge shift in human health. Pharma is not cool with the idea that it's happening in the nutritional supplement industry. The push-back is strong. In my opinion, of course.

 

[HighDesertWizard]

I am new to the Isagenix, IsaGenesis, Product B scene. Still learning... I haven't read or digested this whole thread but I will in the near future. I'm looking forward to learning from participants and, perhaps, I might make a small contribution... Initial impression and thoughts... 

• I think Bill Andrews is the guy to bet on for evolving to a Telomere/Telomerase product that makes a positive difference. From his Wikipedia page entry, I take it that he made a critical and great strategic decision on Sierra Sciences' research focus in 2005. It would be interesting to know if there was any more published detail about it.
• Still, there is always a chance some other person or organization can make a breakthrough difference.

As Phil just noted, there is a new, Version 4, formulation. Here's a link to its ingredients...

 

I'm doing a bit of data massaging to organize the ingredients in a fashion that might lead to more insight. When I'm done with it, I'll post it. Meanwhile, what are the top 4 or 5 ingredients by weight? And what do many of the total list of ingredients have in common?

• Silymarin, Boswellia, Epimedium sagittatum, Panax Ginseng, Ashwagandha
• Many, if not most, of the ingredients are 5-Lipoxygenase Inflammatory Pathway Inhibitors.

Given my positive previous experience with Boswellia [AKBA], I'm not surprised that it would be found in a high dose in a product like Product B.

 

I certainly want to participate in thinking through what Isagenix is up to. Certainly, we need to insist on serious study results. That said, I believe it's foolish not to pay close attention when a guy with Bill Andrews' intelligence, evolved research infrastructure, and experience is involved. And he's getting taken seriously by others...



Looking forward to more discussion...

Edited by wccaguy, 22 October 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[PhilZulli]

Thoughtful post, wccaguy.

That's the way to move things forward. Open minds pave the way to a better future.

By the way, Bill Andrews was also featured in documentaries from the BBC and Smithsonian Channel, and he was the keynote speaker at the PDS Independent Pharmacy Business Growth Conference in 2012. That presentation is available in its entirety on my Healthcare Professionals page - http://www.poweryour...fessionals.html .

In a rapidly growing field of scientists working to clarify the mechanisms of telomere science, Bill has the distinction of being the discoverer of human telomerase and he is clearly the #1 researcher of the practical application of telomere science to human aging. He holds at least 43 U.S. issued patents on telomerase.

[HighDesertWizard]

In a rapidly growing field of scientists working to clarify the mechanisms of telomere science, Bill has the distinction of being the discoverer of human telomerase and he is clearly the #1 researcher of the practical application of telomere science to human aging. He holds at least 43 U.S. issued patents on telomerase.

Hey Phil... Well put point. And in addition to what you've said, I would emphasize this... Bill Andrews has established a company and a team of scientists and support staff who, at this point, must have developed the technology infrastructure, defined processes and procedures, and databases essential to the task of testing and recording information about substance relationships to Telomere Length and Telomerase Activation.

 

That kind of organizational, personnel, technology, process, and data infrastructure does not come together easily or overnight. So my default hunch--that the largest positive breakthrough vis-a-vis Telomere Length and Longevity will come through the work of Bill Andrews--is not merely based on an assessment of his personal capabilities and knowledge, but also on the fact that sophisticated and robust infrastructure, dedicated to a task, can make a profound difference.

Looking forward to learning more!

[niner]

Interpretation is based on the world view you support. We know what Product B/IsaGenesis does.
People can research the info, try it, and decide for themselves. Over time, when the polito-economics of telomere support has stabilized a bit, more can be revealed. We can be patient. Telomerase activation means a huge shift in human health. Pharma is not cool with the idea that it's happening in the nutritional supplement industry. The push-back is strong. In my opinion, of course.

 

That's right!  If your world view is one in which facts are based on measurement and reproducible experiment, then you will probably want to avoid product B, as there is not a shred of evidence that it lengthens telomeres in humans.  If your world view is one of Conspiracy Theory, where evil Big Pharma pays people like me to keep you sick, then you'll want to jump on this train right away

[platypus]

1 vote for evidence-based supplementation.

[PhilZulli]

Niner, I think everyone who wants to avoid Product B/IsaGenesis absolutely should. I do believe in natural selection.

 

Platypus, I also vote for evidence-based supplementation. Isagenix spends millions of dollars on good, sound clinical studies. The latest Skidmore College Study is stunning, although it does not address Product B/IsaGenesis. It completes next month and goes to peer-review for publication next year. It will have a powerful effect on the public perception of nutritional supplementation for weight-loss, detoxification, and cardiovascular and metabolic health.

 

A focus on evidence-based supplementation will help move the discussion forward by allowing people to differentiate companies like Isagenix from the bulk of supplement companies that sell products designed by their marketing departments, products with little value beyond having the current buzzwords on the label.
 

[Andey]

Niner, I think everyone who wants to avoid Product B/IsaGenesis absolutely should. I do believe in natural selection.

 

Platypus, I also vote for evidence-based supplementation. Isagenix spends millions of dollars on good, sound clinical studies. The latest Skidmore College Study is stunning, although it does not address Product B/IsaGenesis. It completes next month and goes to peer-review for publication next year. It will have a powerful effect on the public perception of nutritional supplementation for weight-loss, detoxification, and cardiovascular and metabolic health.

 

A focus on evidence-based supplementation will help move the discussion forward by allowing people to differentiate companies like Isagenix from the bulk of supplement companies that sell products designed by their marketing departments, products with little value beyond having the current buzzwords on the label.
 

 

 

  Hi Phil

 

 Last year you have said that there are some research ongoing on Product B, telomeres and aging.

 Are there any results available since ?

 Its not really obvious for me that Product B lengthens telomeres. Is it shown already ?

 What are the effect of elongated telomeres on human health ? Is it reverse aging or not ?

 

Thanks

[PhilZulli]

Hi Andey,

I covered that in my post above from Sept. 22.

To be clear, there have been no results from human trials released to date that demonstrate the ability to lengthen telomeres. No claim from the company has been made other than "telomere support".

As far as I know, there is still no guidance available from the regulatory agencies regarding claims and representations on teleomerase activators and Isagenix's lawyers have wisely taken a cautious position. There is a lot at stake here. Obviously, when the day comes that a product can legally claim telomerase activation and the ability to lengthen telomeres, it will be a very big game-changer.

So far, Isagenix has demonstrated the ability of Product B/IsaGenesis to promote healthy aging by looking at the activity of catalase in the body. Those details are in my Sept. 22 and Sept. 23 posts above. Clinical proof of the ability of the Isagenix nutritional program to promote healthy aging has been shown in two other studies, the UIC study and the new Skidmore College study. Truly remarkable, eye-opening results that are covered in detail on my Healthcare Professionals page

The most important thing that I can say in regards to your question, Andey, is that those of us who are close to the situation take Product B/IsaGenesis every day.

[HighDesertWizard]

A couple things...

Phil, I have been remiss in not expressing my (and others') condolences to you and your family upon the loss of your son... Wish you and yours the best in this first difficult year...

-------
Last evening, I got around to browsing/reading this thread. Many people, active for most of the thread, are now absent from the discussion, Louis, Anthony, especially, among others...

It was disturbing to witness how quickly knowledgeable and active participants at Longecity.org resorted to accusing other participants of dishonesty and fraud when, imo, the problem was merely their talking past each other and forgetting to listen...
 

IMO, we all need to get better at not believing ourselves to be infallible mind readers and not ascribing motivation to our friends in this forum without evidence...

Edited by wccaguy, 26 October 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

So what the latest press release is saying is that Product B doesn't exactly extend telomeres, but it might help to keep them from shrinking as much.  Or not, depending on the exact meaning of the increase in catalase activity.  It looks like there is no evidence that it has any effect at all on telomere length.

 

Niner... While I believe that last sentence is true, an as important point is not being made...

 

Because, in fact, there is an active member of Longecity who has, in the past, claimed to have funded/generated a scientific report on the Telomerase Activation capabilities of an earlier version of Product B...

 

I'm speaking, of course, about Anthony Loera...

 

Like I wrote above, I got around to reading this entire thread last evening... And Anthony is on record as having written...

• he had an earlier version of Product B tested vis-a-vis its Telomerase Activation properties
• he committed to publishing a report about it multiple times in this thread
• initially, he found the test results not worthy of his selling Product B at RevGenetics
• he later changed his mind and wrote that Product B did provide some level of Telomerase Activation (although not as much as TA-65) and that he was working to enable his firm to sell it (Product B)
• he found, upon further research, that Isagenix policies wouldn't allow a firm like his to sell it

So, in fact, Niner, on the face of that earlier discussion in this thread.... It does look like there is Evidence that Product B does have some kind of Telomerase Activation properties...

 

I suggest we ask Anthony to make good on his multiple, earlier commitments to publish the report... Or point us to a link where it is already published.
​

[HighDesertWizard]

Good news:
I was going over our internal standards regarding telomerase activators... and we have decided to move the needle.

What this means, is that although TA65 remains the standard to beat, we will begin to sell telomerase activators that do not meet the TA65 standard, but still show some activity (better than controls) at much higher concentrations.

This will allow RevGenetics to sell Product B.

I am awaiting on Louis to provide his link to "signup" so that he benefits. He took the most grief from my posts, and deserves (in my opinion) a token of confidence for putting up with me, and hanging in there.

IM me your link Louis.

Cheers
A

 

Anthony Loera had testing done on an earlier version of Product B and committed, multiple times, to publish the report. I take it from this post, that it showed this earlier Version of Product B to Activate Telomerase, in-vitro, to some degree, even if less than TA-65.

Seems to me that we should ask Anthony for a copy of the report.

Edited by wccaguy, 26 October 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[PhilZulli]

Thank you, wccaguy.

 

It is difficult for the family, but we are doing well. I appreciate your gesture.