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Degenerative Disc Disease Supplements


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#31 nowayout

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:04 PM

I'm learning as I type this, but I can say the etiology of disc degeneration is fairly complex, as discussed here:

Hadjipavlou, A. G., et al. "The pathophysiology of disc degeneration a critical review." Journal of Bone & Joint Surgery, British Volume 90.10 (2008): 1261-1270.

It seems you'll want more: transforming growth factor β, basic fibroblast growth factor, and insulin-like growth factor, and less: tumour necrosis factor-α, interleukin-1, and atherosclerosis of the abdominal aorta and lumbar arteries. Physical therapy adjuncts would seem to include mild compression (walking?), but limiting vibration and torsion.

All of those hormones are pluripotent, and changing their levels markedly probably brings risk of other problems (ie, higher TGFβ is implicated in a number of diseases, including liver fibrosis, higher IGF-1 in cancer proliferation, TNF-α and IL-1 are important in immune response). Research labs can order non-FDA approved recombinant versions, but cost and expertise is probably prohibitive for most individuals..

There's transforming growth factor β in bovine milk (but its not clear if this is active in adults). Vitamin E reduces its levels in the liver, though no evidence that it would have similar effects in chondrocytes, while a number of popular supplements, like resveratrol and the drug metformin interfere with IGF-1 signalling. In other words, there's a good chance some of your current supplements may be reducing the important growth factors for disc synthesis by chondrocytes. I'd certainly do a google scholar search on everything your currently taking with reference to the growth hormones and eliminate supplements that may be interfering with disc regeneration.

High animal protein paleo diets will increase IGF-1 levels, but if they include lots of the pro-inflammatory compounds found especially in red meat likely increase TNF-α, IL-1 and would do little for existing atherosclerosis. Omega-3 fatty acids from cold-water wild fish, flax and some nuts reduce TNF-α and IL-1, but mainly in the context of a low omega-6 diet. A pescetarian diet eliminating all fried foods, snack foods, and cooking/salad oils (save perhaps canola, flax, hemp) may support IGF-1 levels, while reducing inflammatory signalling and offering some vascular benefits.

There are many, many compounds which interfere with TNF-α and IL-1 inflammatory signalling. This paper offers a review of the hundreds known NF-kB inhibitors which can do the trick in vitro. Many of them, however, may also inhibit desirable TGF β, BFGF, and IGF-1, so caution and literature searches are neccessary.

Edit: I'd hoped that this paper might be of considerable interest, but it largely just reiterated mechanisms from the first and listed potential recombinant protein and gene therapy approaches: ie mainstream medicine offered few practical molecular interventions, at least as of 2009:
Ireland, Daniel. "Molecular mechanisms involved in intervertebral disc degeneration and potential new treatment strategies." Bioscience Horizons 2.1 (2009): 83-89.


This last link is dead.

#32 Darryl

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:07 PM

Try this:

Ireland, Daniel. "Molecular mechanisms involved in intervertebral disc degeneration and potential new treatment strategies." Bioscience Horizons 2.1 (2009): 83-89.

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#33 nowayout

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:58 PM

Try this:

Ireland, Daniel. "Molecular mechanisms involved in intervertebral disc degeneration and potential new treatment strategies." Bioscience Horizons 2.1 (2009): 83-89.


This article claims that TNFα is not so important in IVDD:

...inhibition of TNFα failed to reduce the matrix degradation, thus supporting the theory that IL-1 is a key cytokine involved in the pathogenesis of IVDD.


Since I am taking a biologic TNFα inhibitor for another autoinflammatory condition, I was hoping that would also help inhibit disc degeneration, but now I am less hopeful in that regard.

#34 Darryl

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:31 PM

There are a number of prescription IL-1 inhibitors: anakinra (Kineret), canakinumab (Ilarus), rilonacept (Arcalyst), used primarily in arthritis treatment, and experimentally in gout.

Some natural compounds with in vitro IL-1 inhibition activity include: curcumin, zerumbone (sesquiterpene isolated from Asian ginger), Tripterygium wilfordii (lei gong teng, Thunder God Vine(!)). There are other studies on each of these.

Curcumin and zerumbone also interfere with IGF-1 signalling (not a good thing in the context of disc regeneration). I haven't come across similar findings with Tripterygium, though there are plenty of toxic effects to worry about.

Edited by Darryl, 05 October 2013 - 10:38 PM.


#35 nowayout

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:41 AM

Frankly puttering around with supplements is not going to do much IMO. They are like nothing compared to biologics for serious disease processes like this. Believe me, I puttered around long enough with supplements for spondylitic disease and they did bugger-all compared to the miracle of Enbrel.
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#36 RJ23_1989

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:13 PM

I herniated my C6 vertebrae a while back and found Thymosin Beta 4 helped tremendously with my recovery. Its also seems to exhibit a powerful anti-inflammatory effect. Its not a long term solution, however. its generally best to use it for about 6-8 weeks.

Thymosin Beta 4

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Disc degeneration

Lumbar degenerative disease, which leads to lower back pain, is an endurance that aging man faces. Degenerative disc disease results from the loss by apoptosis of annulus cells, which make up the outer fibrous capsule of the intervertebral disk. A study conducted at three major medical institutions reported that Tβ4 significantly reduced disc cell apoptosis, suggesting a potential treatment for degenerative disc disease and chronic discogenic lower back pain.

That study was Exogenous thymosin beta4 prevents apoptosis in human intervertebral annulus cells in vitro, Tapp H, Biotech Histochem. 2009 Dec;84(6):287-94

Abstract

Loss of cells in the human disc due to programmed cell death (apoptosis) is a major factor in the aging and degenerating human intervertebral disc. Our objective here was to determine if thymosin beta(4) (TB4), a small, multifunctional 5 kDa protein with diverse activities, might block apoptosis in human annulus cells cultured in monolayer or three-dimensional (3D) culture.

Apoptosis was induced in vitro using hydrogen peroxide or serum starvation. Annulus cells were processed for identification of apoptotic cells using the TUNEL method. The percentage of apoptotic cells was determined by cell counts. Annulus cells also were treated with TB4 for determination of proliferation, and proteoglycan production was assessed using cell titer and 1,2 dimethylmethylamine (DMB) assays and histological staining.

A significant reduction in disc cell apoptosis occurred after TB4 treatment. The percentage of cells undergoing apoptosis decreased significantly in TB4 treated cells in both apoptosis induction designs. TB4 exposure did not alter proteoglycan production as assessed by either DMB measurement or histological staining. Our results indicate the need for further studies of the anti-apoptotic effect of TB4 and suggest that TB4 may have therapeutic application in future biological

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#37 niner

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

I herniated my C6 vertebrae a while back and found Thymosin Beta 4 helped tremendously with my recovery. Its also seems to exhibit a powerful anti-inflammatory effect. Its not a long term solution, however. its generally best to use it for about 6-8 weeks.


Patrick, How did you use the TB4? It looks like it would need to be injected. Where did you get it?

#38 RJ23_1989

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:05 PM

Niner, that's correct it is an SQ injected peptide so that is something that should be considered. I don't like/trust the Chinese sourced peptide market so mine came from a private company who has has them synthesized by GeneScript here in the USA.

#39 meatsauce

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

Niner, that's correct it is an SQ injected peptide so that is something that should be considered. I don't like/trust the Chinese sourced peptide market so mine came from a private company who has has them synthesized by GeneScript here in the USA.


Genescript has their peptide production based in china just to let you know. I'm not saying the quality is bad though.

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#40 RJ23_1989

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:29 PM

I wonder if its Genescript then? I made that assumption based on putting some details together but in any case its definitely well above the usual website stuff. I've never once seen any undissolved lyophilized powder in the vials once reconstituted and the vacuum seal is so strong the vial actually jumps a little when you remove the syringe after reconstitution. Vial labels are individually bar coded and they are shipped refrigerated. Probably not really necessary but a nice touch none the less.




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