39 replies to this topic

[DbCooper]

Looking for any supplements that can help with degenerative disc disease and its causes. Calcium, K2, Human Growth Hormone (10months straight), 9 hours a stretching a week with one of the best trainers in professional sports, and maintaining 25 Hydroxy vitamin D levels just above 50 and adapting a Paleo diet (which caused a loss of 34 lbs in 3 months) have done little or nothing to improve disc issues.

Anyone have any "outside the box" success with anything else?


This looks as though it could be interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21789526

[Robert C]

While not a supplement, there is some newish research about certain antidepressants and lower back pain. Specifically, some of the older tricyclic antidepressants and the new Cymbalta are used for this purpose.

[Dorian Grey]

I have iliosacral joint pain and take SAM-e off and on for another issue...

I was reading about SAM-e and saw it can be effective for joint pain / arthritis a few months back.

I was having a major flair of my I/S pain when I started taking SAM-e for my other issues. This time, I noticed my iliosacral problem improved quite rapidly after starting on the SAM-e. I wouldn't have made the connection if I hadn't read about it a month or so ago.

I'm only taking low (200mg/day) doses of SAM-e (it's expensive!) which makes the pain relief even more impressive.

If you're going to try it, be sure you take it on an empty stomach with at least 8 ounces of water, something a lot of the dosing instructions don't tell you! And always get enteric coated SAM-e in foil blister packs. SAM-e can lose potency very easily when exposed to oxygen, humidity, heat, stomach acid, etc.

You should also take a low dose B-Complex with SAM-e to prevent high homocysteine, which is possible with SAM-e when you are not getting enough B-6, B-12, and folic acid. If you're on proton pump acid blockers, get some sublingual B-12 dots, as without stomach acid, you're likely to be deficient in B-12.

Good Luck and let us know how it works.

[niner]

This looks as though it could be interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21789526

Yeah, that is kind of interesting. In the in vitro experiment, it was active at 50 nM, a concentration that should be able to be achieved in vivo, just looking at the structure of it. However, it has other activities. Immunosuppression would be one possible problem.

It's an ancient Chinese medicine called Thunder God Vine that is probably pretty useful in the right hands. nccam.nih.gov offers the following cautions:

Thunder god vine can cause severe side effects and can be poisonous if it is not carefully extracted from the skinned root. Other parts of the plant—including the leaves, flowers, and skin of the root—are highly poisonous and can cause death.
A number participants in the NIAMS study experienced gastrointestinal adverse effects such as diarrhea, indigestion, and nausea, as well as upper respiratory tract infections. (The rate of adverse effects was similar in both the thunder god vine and sulfasalazine groups.)
Thunder god vine can also cause hair loss, headache, menstrual changes, and skin rash.
There are no consistent, high-quality thunder god vine products being manufactured in the United States. Preparations of thunder god vine made outside the United States (for example, in China) can sometimes be obtained, but it is not possible to verify whether they are safe and effective.
Thunder god vine has been found to decrease bone mineral density in women who take the herb for 5 years or longer. This side effect may be of particular concern to women who have osteoporosis or are at risk for the condition.
Thunder god vine contains chemicals that might decrease male fertility by changing sperm.

[Lufega]

Tadaaa...

The action of resveratrol, a phytoestrogen found in grapes, on the intervertebral disc.

OBJECTIVE:
To determine the potential benefits of using resveratrol (RSV) for intervertebral disc (IVD) matrix repair and regeneration.


SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA:
The phytoestrogen RSV is a natural compound found in various plants including grapes and red wines. RSV has been reported to provide a protective effect on articular cartilage in rabbit models for arthritis, but its effect on spine cartilage is unknown. METHODS.: We studied the effect of RSV on bovine IVD cartilage homeostasis by assessing MMP-13 (potent catabolic factor) production, proteoglycan (PG) accumulation and synthesis, and the interaction between RSV and known catabolic factors such as bFGF or IL-1. To understand the molecular mechanisms by which RSV modulates MMP-13 and PG production, we also investigated its downstream target regulatory molecules.


RESULTS:
Stimulation of bovine disc cells cultured in monolayer with bFGF or IL-1 augmented the production of MMP-13 and ADAMTS-4 at the transcriptional level and this augmentation was blocked by RSV. Incubation of nucleus pulposus cells with RSV for 21 days significantly increased PG accumulation per cell in a dose-dependent manner, increased PG synthesis, rescued PG losses induced by catabolic reagents bFGF and IL-1, and promoted cell survival to levels seen after incubation with the anabolic protein BMP7 100 ng/mL. Protein-DNA interaction array results suggest that RSV effectively suppresses downstream target molecules of bFGF and IL-1 responsible for oxidative stress, proliferation, and apoptosis.


CONCLUSION:
Resveratrol is a potent anabolic mediator of bovine IVD cartilage homeostasis, revealing its potential as a unique biologic treatment to slow the progression of IVD degeneration. These data suggests RSV may have considerable promise in the treatment of disc degeneration.

PMID:19011540Ful study available.

[nowayout]

Synesthesia, you do know that SI inflammation is THE diagnostic hallmark of Ankylosing Spondylitis, right? If so, there are more appropriate and effective medications that can make a big difference. Have you seen a rheumatologist about this?

[nowayout]

I know exactly what you are going through.

About 50% of healthy, symptom-free adults have degenerate or herniated discs upon imaging, so it is not really a "disease", and the cure is not really for the discs to regrow, but rather for the nervous system to be retrained so that, like the majority of people with degenerated discs, you can be pain-free with normal mobility.

Here is a nice interview on this issue with a Dr. Rainville, a quite famous rehabilitative orthopedist at NE Baptist in Boston.

http://www.everydayh...anscript-1.aspx

Here is an interesting set of slides by him: http://www.necoem.or...12Rainville.PDF

[markymark]

Looking for any supplements that can help with degenerative disc disease and its causes. Calcium, K2, Human Growth Hormone (10months straight), 9 hours a stretching a week with one of the best trainers in professional sports, and maintaining 25 Hydroxy vitamin D levels just above 50 and adapting a Paleo diet (which caused a loss of 34 lbs in 3 months) have done little or nothing to improve disc issues.

Anyone have any "outside the box" success with anything else?


This looks as though it could be interesting

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21789526

Hello DbCooper
If you've had an MRI showing Modic Type-I changes, you might read this paper and follow its protocol: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18718972
I know it sounds strange to take antibiotics for 100 days (= the normal treatment for "classical" septic discitis). But again, only if the MRI shows a Modic-I signal, antibiotic treatment might be worth a try. Alternatively to the Ampicillin (three times a day is a hard regimen), you could go an Azithromycin 500 mg three days in a row, followed by 500 mg Azithromycin two times per week for 100 days in total. This is a regimen for acne and normally very well tolerated....
good luck MM

Edited by markymark, 18 August 2011 - 07:58 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Synesthesia, you do know that SI inflammation is THE diagnostic hallmark of Ankylosing Spondylitis, right? If so, there are more appropriate and effective medications that can make a big difference. Have you seen a rheumatologist about this?

Thanks for the heads-up viveutvivas, I'll have to follow up on this. I often sit cross-legged in my magic chair leaning forward to tap on my 'puter. I thought this might be the cause. Thanx.

[DbCooper]

Tadaaa...

The action of resveratrol, a phytoestrogen found in grapes, on the intervertebral disc.

OBJECTIVE:
To determine the potential benefits of using resveratrol (RSV) for intervertebral disc (IVD) matrix repair and regeneration.


SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA:
The phytoestrogen RSV is a natural compound found in various plants including grapes and red wines. RSV has been reported to provide a protective effect on articular cartilage in rabbit models for arthritis, but its effect on spine cartilage is unknown. METHODS.: We studied the effect of RSV on bovine IVD cartilage homeostasis by assessing MMP-13 (potent catabolic factor) production, proteoglycan (PG) accumulation and synthesis, and the interaction between RSV and known catabolic factors such as bFGF or IL-1. To understand the molecular mechanisms by which RSV modulates MMP-13 and PG production, we also investigated its downstream target regulatory molecules.


RESULTS:
Stimulation of bovine disc cells cultured in monolayer with bFGF or IL-1 augmented the production of MMP-13 and ADAMTS-4 at the transcriptional level and this augmentation was blocked by RSV. Incubation of nucleus pulposus cells with RSV for 21 days significantly increased PG accumulation per cell in a dose-dependent manner, increased PG synthesis, rescued PG losses induced by catabolic reagents bFGF and IL-1, and promoted cell survival to levels seen after incubation with the anabolic protein BMP7 100 ng/mL. Protein-DNA interaction array results suggest that RSV effectively suppresses downstream target molecules of bFGF and IL-1 responsible for oxidative stress, proliferation, and apoptosis.


CONCLUSION:
Resveratrol is a potent anabolic mediator of bovine IVD cartilage homeostasis, revealing its potential as a unique biologic treatment to slow the progression of IVD degeneration. These data suggests RSV may have considerable promise in the treatment of disc degeneration.

PMID:19011540Ful study available.

Nice find. You know whats crazy about this is that Resveratrol actually makes my joints ache, no my back so much as all my other joints. I have in the past taken a very strong anti inflamatory called Mobic (meloxicam) that does actually provide temporary relief.

From the information on that Podcast/ interview it seems like a lot of it may be genetic, in that your cells within the disc just want to self destroy after a certain amount of time.

a lot of great information here.

[APBT]

Since you are inquiring about supps that may offer some relief (these primarily in the reduction of inflammation), in no particular order:

Ginger
Turmeric
EPA/DHA (fish oil)
Glucosamine
Chondroitin Sulfate
Resveratrol (mentioned above)
Boswellia
Bromelain
MSM

Other modalities for consideration:

Walking 30 minutes daily
Stationary cycling (as tolerated)
Heat
Ice

Being cognizant of your posture while standing and sitting.

If working seated at a computer, stand and stretch every 30 minutes.

As a non-surgical, yet medical option, a transforaminal epidural injection may yield successful results. These can be administered 3-4 times per year.

Two books written by Vijay Vad, M.D. a sports-medicine specialist, may be of interest. He's a huge advocate for lifestyle intervention.
"Stop Pain"
"Back Rx"

You don't mention if this condition was caused by an injury or accident. Nor did you mention where specifically the pain is, cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacrum? Do you have accompanying pain in your leg(s), or is it localized?

[Lufega]

I posted a study earlier on Vitamin K2 K-4 having an anabolic effect on GAG. You might want to look into that. I've been using 10 mg daily for a couple of weeks and my skin is looking awsome. It appears fuller, healthier. I can only imagine what it's doing to my insides. Also, MSM and antiinflammatory actions by inhibiting TNF-alpha and other things while also being helping repair tissue.

[DbCooper]

Ive already had a Microdiscectomy in the past and Ive been take Life Extension super K2 for the last 6 months.

[Luminosity]

I agree with the people who suggested MSM. I would say to try plain MSM powder dissolved completely in water maybe with a little vitamin C powder. Take it twice a day on an empty stomach. Wait until absorbed before eating. Source Naturals, Jarrow and UltraBotanicals are good brands. You can work up to a teaspoon or two at time if you can tolerate it.

Boswellin or Boswellia is another good one.

Avoid NOW vitamins. I often find them to be ineffective.

Type II collagen is a possibility. NeoCell is one brand. You have to open the capsules and dissolve it thoroughly in water, again, maybe with a little powdered vitamin C. Take it on an empty stomach. Wait til is is absorbed to eat.

Shou Wu Chi Chinese tonic is another possibility. HEI brand, in the yellow box, is a good one. It can contribute to high blood pressure in the eyes and face for some people. Stop taking it if that happens. It can also become an aphrodisiac. Watch out for that. It might take a while for that to happen, though.

Watch out for an acidic diet. That is bad for you. Try not to drink sodas. Try to eat steamed green vegetables every day.

Silica is another possibility. BioSil by Jarrow is a good one.

Bone Up by Jarrow is a good mineral supplement.

If you can swim safely, that might help.

If you can find alternatives to prescription drugs and drug store anti-inflammatories, that might be better. There are alternatives.

StimTien, from the informercials, might help. They have a sixty day money back guarantee. I believe that they honor it.

Acupuncture and prescribed chinese herbs might help. I would not let them put the needle in the injured area, or too close to it, personally.

Sounds like you are already making some impressive efforts. I hope you find a solution.

Good luck.

Edited by Luminosity, 21 August 2011 - 03:46 AM.

[nowayout]

Staying active. In the absence of a good blood supply, mechanical movement is the main way nutrients and oxygen are distributed to the disc, which is why bed rest and an inactive lifestyle are associated with bad outcomes in discogenic back pain.

[Synchro]

I happen to have been fixing low back pain, as a doc, for ten years before I got a chance to segue' completely into antiaging research.

I used prolotherapy. It works. It's the opposite of steroid injections. Your problem is almost certainly not discs...it's ligaments. The low back, the entire back, is a "tensegrity" structure, like a suspension bridge, and if the ligaments become stretched or torn - as they easily do, trust me on this - your back will hurt like hell. Bulging discs are a symptom of damaged ligaments, not the real cause of back pain. Forget the bullshit of bulging discs protuding onto nerve roots - that hardly EVER happens. It's microscopic avulsion fractures where the ligament fibers have pulled out of the bone, creating little lesions in the periosteum, which hurts like bloody hell. Prolotherapy fixes all this, by causing microinflammations on purpose, at the damaged ligaments, so the body can mount a healing cascade and make new ligament and new ligamento-osseus junctions.

If you're anywhere near Tom Ravin in Denver, Colorado, go see him or his colleague, Dr. Cantieri. They'll fix you, guaranteed.
If you're near Payson, AZ, I'll fix you. But I don't do that anymore, just occasionally to help out some poor soul, I have way too much to do treating cancer and doing antiaging research. But there are lots of first class prolotherapists all across the country: call up Tom Ravin's clinic near Denver, Colorado, and ask them for a referral, someone who has trained with Tom or Mark Cantieri, and then just go get yourself fixed. Supplements won't do it.

Cheers!!!

[Lufega]

I just remembered, Ecdysterone. Been using it for a few months as it gives me more strength at the gym. I have a herniated disk b/w L4/L5 now that I think about it, it hasn't hurt in a while. That's considering that I perform heavy deadlifts and bentover rows at the gym. Maybe this stuff does work after all. Pilates also did wondering for my back. There were certain moves that stopped the pain dead cold, probably by forcing the herniation back in place. I also used MSM for a rotator cuff injury and it worked after everything else failed. I think the combination is probably best. Even though I posted the resveratrol study above, I used it for a long time and I never noticed any improvement in back pain.

Ecdysterone repairs cartilage in joints

[nowayout]

I used prolotherapy. It works. It's the opposite of steroid injections. Your problem is almost certainly not discs...it's ligaments. The low back, the entire back, is a "tensegrity" structure, like a suspension bridge, and if the ligaments become stretched or torn - as they easily do, trust me on this - your back will hurt like hell. Bulging discs are a symptom of damaged ligaments, not the real cause of back pain. Forget the bullshit of bulging discs protuding onto nerve roots - that hardly EVER happens. It's microscopic avulsion fractures where the ligament fibers have pulled out of the bone, creating little lesions in the periosteum, which hurts like bloody hell. Prolotherapy fixes all this, by causing microinflammations on purpose, at the damaged ligaments, so the body can mount a healing cascade and make new ligament and new ligamento-osseus junctions.

This is very interesting. Can you point to any studies on prolotherapy for back pain?

[Lufega]

I just remembered, Ecdysterone. Been using it for a few months as it gives me more strength at the gym. I have a herniated disk b/w L4/L5 now that I think about it, it hasn't hurt in a while. That's considering that I perform heavy deadlifts and bentover rows at the gym. Maybe this stuff does work after all. Pilates also did wondering for my back. There were certain moves that stopped the pain dead cold, probably by forcing the herniation back in place. I also used MSM for a rotator cuff injury and it worked after everything else failed. I think the combination is probably best. Even though I posted the resveratrol study above, I used it for a long time and I never noticed any improvement in back pain.

Ecdysterone repairs cartilage in joints

Forgot the link.

http://www.ergo-log....ronejoints.html

[APBT]

While not a supplement you ingest, this is supplemental work that IMHO, everyone, particularly athletes, should incorporate into their daily routine. Using simple, inexpensive items like lacrosse balls, exercise bands, rollers, the host of this mobility blog teaches users how to loosen-up and unkink their body; diminishing or eliminating pain and mobility issues. http://www.mobilitywod.com/

[nowayout]

Also consider that often in chronic back pain there may indeed be degenerate discs but the pain may come from elsewhere. A common source of pain is the facet joints. Also, ligaments and muscle spasm may be involved. I think about 80% of bakc pain is idiopathic, and even in cases where disc problems are visible upon imaging, they are often only an incidental finding.

[DbCooper]

Ill look into the prolotherapy (but why is it when I take 1 Meloxicam after weeks of serious back pain it is 85% better the next day. Meloxicam is a strong anti- inflammatory. Ill look into it though. I guess I should have been more specific in my original post but i have done the Mobility WOD at Invictus. Im probably 3x as active as your average person. I already tried the swimming stuff, logging 2 Nautical miles per week in open ocean (with fins) for 4 months, this was great for leg strength but did little to relieve back pain. Ive also tried Ginger, Turmeric, and lots of fish oil.

I appreciate the info and will keep trying new things, thats I haven't thought of like MSM etc.

[nowayout]

If your back pain responds to an NSAID like Meloxicam, that is a sign that you have what is known as inflammatory back pain (obviously), which is a major symptom of Ankylosing Spondylitis or the other spondyloarthopathies. If so, it won't go away and there are better medications for the condition.

I would recommend that you see a rheumatologist just to be sure. Keep in mind that spondylitis can coexist with mechanical problems (and even in some cases be triggered by some mechanical trauma).

See this link and see if anything sounds familiar:

http://www.spondylit..._back_pain.aspx
 

When determing if the back pain is inflammatory in nature and related to a disease such as ankylosing spondylitis, the following is often taken into account:
 

• Onset of pain is usually under 35 years of age and is insidious
• Pain persists for more than three months (i.e., it is chronic)
• The back pain and stiffness worsen with immobility, especially at night and early morning
• The back pain and stiffness tend to ease with physical activity and exercise
• NSAIDs are very effective in relieving pain and stiffness in most patients

 

Edited by Mind, 17 July 2016 - 11:50 AM.
edited for bad link

[APBT]

A couple more things, then I think I've exhausted my arsenal.

Have you sought multiple opinions/diagnoses, from different specialists? Often you have to look outside your immediate geographical area.

Kelly Starrett, the guy who posts the MobilityWOD is a PT and the owner of CrossFit San Francisco. He has worked miracles with injured athletes and does private consultations and treatments. http://www.sanfranci...ysical-therapy.php

Edited by APBT, 23 August 2011 - 08:25 PM.

[shadowhawk]

My wife has a Tarlov Cyst and it causes her back pain which goes down her left leg. We have used anti infammatories as well as pain meds. Any ideas?

Edited by shadowhawk, 23 August 2011 - 09:34 PM.

[zorba990]

While not a supplement you ingest, this is supplemental work that IMHO, everyone, particularly athletes, should incorporate into their daily routine. Using simple, inexpensive items like lacrosse balls, exercise bands, rollers, the host of this mobility blog teaches users how to loosen-up and unkink their body; diminishing or eliminating pain and mobility issues. http://www.mobilitywod.com/

A thousand times yes! Working out my calfs this way has made a huge difference in the smoothness of my runs. It's another thing that puts you better in touch with your body.

[zorba990]

Also consider that when there is excess inflammation in the body it may have a source distant from the pain. Hidden infections in gums, teeth (can be wisdom tooth sockets or cavitations), and appendix come to mind.

Gluten free diets help reduce inflammation for some people as well.

cissus quadrangularis is an anti-inflammatory that is actually anti-catabolic. Well thought of in bodybuilding forums. Also CMO
http://www.cetylmyristoleate.com/

[pycnogenol]

My wife has a Tarlov Cyst and it causes her back pain which goes down her left leg.
We have used anti infammatories as well as pain meds. Any ideas?

I wonder if taking the enzyme serrapeptase would help to shrink/dissolve her Tarlov cyst.

[Phattony]

Previously unmentioned...

-Pentosan polysulfate
-Avocado Soy Unsaponifiables
-Cissus Quadrangularis
-Injectable chondroitin, glucosamine, hyaluronic acid
-Thymosin Beta
-BPC 157


Missed the post on Cissus and CMO. My bad.

[Darryl]

I'm learning as I type this, but I can say the etiology of disc degeneration is fairly complex, as discussed here:

Hadjipavlou, A. G., et al. "The pathophysiology of disc degeneration a critical review." Journal of Bone & Joint Surgery, British Volume 90.10 (2008): 1261-1270.

It seems you'll want more: transforming growth factor β, basic fibroblast growth factor, and insulin-like growth factor, and less: tumour necrosis factor-α, interleukin-1, and atherosclerosis of the abdominal aorta and lumbar arteries. Physical therapy adjuncts would seem to include mild compression (walking?), but limiting vibration and torsion.

All of those hormones are pluripotent, and changing their levels markedly probably brings risk of other problems (ie, higher TGFβ is implicated in a number of diseases, including liver fibrosis, higher IGF-1 in cancer proliferation, TNF-α and IL-1 are important in immune response). Research labs can order non-FDA approved recombinant versions, but cost and expertise is probably prohibitive for most individuals..

There's transforming growth factor β in bovine milk (but its not clear if this is active in adults). Vitamin E reduces its levels in the liver, though no evidence that it would have similar effects in chondrocytes, while a number of popular supplements, like resveratrol and the drug metformin interfere with IGF-1 signalling. In other words, there's a good chance some of your current supplements may be reducing the important growth factors for disc synthesis by chondrocytes. I'd certainly do a google scholar search on everything your currently taking with reference to the growth hormones and eliminate supplements that may be interfering with disc regeneration.

High animal protein paleo diets will increase IGF-1 levels, but if they include lots of the pro-inflammatory compounds found especially in red meat likely increase TNF-α, IL-1 and would do little for existing atherosclerosis. Omega-3 fatty acids from cold-water wild fish, flax and some nuts reduce TNF-α and IL-1, but mainly in the context of a low omega-6 diet. A pescetarian diet eliminating all fried foods, snack foods, and cooking/salad oils (save perhaps canola, flax, hemp) may support IGF-1 levels, while reducing inflammatory signalling and offering some vascular benefits.

There are many, many compounds which interfere with TNF-α and IL-1 inflammatory signalling. This paper offers a review of the hundreds known NF-kB inhibitors which can do the trick in vitro. Many of them, however, may also inhibit desirable TGF β, BFGF, and IGF-1, so caution and literature searches are neccessary.

Edit: I'd hoped that this paper might be of considerable interest, but it largely just reiterated mechanisms from the first and listed potential recombinant protein and gene therapy approaches: ie mainstream medicine offered few practical molecular interventions, at least as of 2009:
Ireland, Daniel. "Molecular mechanisms involved in intervertebral disc degeneration and potential new treatment strategies." Bioscience Horizons 2.1 (2009): 83-89.

Edited by Darryl, 05 October 2013 - 08:19 PM.