86 replies to this topic

[Hip]

Is Aging Fundamentally Driven By The Effects of Pathogenic Microbes Within The Body?

Aging researchers have cataloged a series of mechanisms through which aging occurs, including: DNA damage, telomere shortening, the effects of free radicals, glycation, mitochondrial damage, hormonal decline, inflammation, and so forth.

However, very little attention has been given to the deleterious effects of pathogenic microbes in the body as an underlying cause of aging. Though woefully understudied, pathogen-related aging may turn out to be the most significant mechanism of aging, in the sense that the highly disruptive action of pathogenic microbes within the body probably underpins or accelerates many of the aging mechanisms listed above.

If our bodies could be cleared of these accumulated pathogens, this should greatly reduce the rate of aging, as well as the incidence of the numerous diseases these microbes are associated with precipitating. In other words, eliminating these pathogenic microbes should increase not only lifespan, but also healthspan.

Clearing the body of pathogenic microbes is no mean feat. Most of us will have acquired and accumulated hundreds of chronic (and permanent) microbial infections. Indeed, by the time we are around 20 years old, we will be carrying a whole raft of permanent viral and bacterial infections in our tissues, and probably quite a few protozoal, fungal and helminth infections to boot.

Unfortunately, pathogenic microbes are very common in humans: Epstein Barr virus, for example, is found in around 95% of adults, HHV-6 virus in over 90%, Coxsackie B virus in 55% of adults, cytomegalovirus in 50%, and parvovirus B19 in 50%. For all of these listed viruses, once caught, they cannot be eliminated. Many bacteria also accumulate in the body, and remain as resident microorganisms: Chlamydia pneumoniae, for example, is found in around 20% of people by the time they reach adulthood; this bacterium lives inside human cells, where it continually disrupts cellular mechanisms.

Only a few viruses like rhinovirus — a common cold virus — are eliminated totally from the body. But most microbes remain in the body permanently once you have caught them, usually simmering at a low level of infection, with these simmering infections constantly exerting a disruptive effect on bodily function, which can precipitate chronic disease.


How Microbes Mess Up Normal Human Metabolism

There are several reasons why pathogenic microbes in our body are so disruptive to normal metabolism. One very disruptive process deriving from pathogens in our tissues is their production of toxins and virulence factors, often for facilitating the spread of these microbes. For example, many viruses and bacteria synthesize connective tissue-dissolving enzymes (such elastase and collagenase), as virulence factors to help them dissolve through human tissue and spread into new areas and compartments of the human body.

Another very disruptive process employed by most microbes is their immune evasion activities. Immune evasion is the active process that microbes use to constantly throw spanners into the workings of the immune system, in order to stop it from functioning properly, thus preventing the immune system from targeting and eliminating the microbes. Immune evasion tactics employed by microbes include the synthesis of fake cytokines. Cytokines are the messenger molecules of the immune system. The fake cytokines made by microbes are virtually identical to real cytokines made by humans; these fake cytokines are designed to misdirect, thwart or switch off the immune response, so that the microbes avoid being killed by the immune system. In essence, microbes have evolved the ability to hack into the immune system, and screw with the way it works.

Thus pathogenic microbes in our body are very disruptive to normal metabolism, and perturb normal bodily function.


Pathogenic Microbes And Chronic Disease

So pathogens are probably significantly accelerating the aging process, via the myriad minor malfunctions or maladjustments of human metabolism these microbes create in our bodies. And these pathogens are almost certainly a primary cause of chronic disease.

Yet few scientists do research on, or think about, this concept. One very notable exception is evolutionary biologist Paul W Ewald, who is well known for his view that many diseases of currently unknown or unclear etiology (like, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, heart disease, Crohn's disease, many cancers, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigue syndrome, and so forth) are very likely due to chronic, low level microbial infections. In other words, Paul Ewald thinks that germs, not genes, are the cause of most common chronic diseases.

If a great many common diseases are indeed caused by infectious pathogens rather than genes, then humanity stands a good chance of eradicating these diseases, by eradicating the infectious microbes that cause them, thus extending our lifespans and healthspans.

However, very little funding is allocated to examining the microbial causes of common chronic diseases — this research area gets only a tiny fraction of the money allocated to genetic research, for example.

What are the reasons for this lack of focus and funding on this important area of research? This is an issue I would love to see discussed further on this site.

This lack of focus and funding on how pathogens may cause accelerated aging and precipitate disease needs to be addressed.


Further Reading On Disease — Pathogen Links


Paul W Ewald Says Germs, Not Genes, Cause Most Chronic Diseases
A New Golden Age Of Medicine

List Of Human Diseases Associated With Infectious Pathogens
Viruses In Perspective – Thoughts And Ideas

Can You Catch A Heart Attack?
Equations That Spell Disaster: Researchers Are Pinpointing The Factors That Combine To Produce Complex Diseases

Checking To See If Your Particular Health Condition Or Disease Is Linked To Any Infectious Microbes

Edited by Hip, 25 August 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[niner]

"The Major" cause? That's an extreme overstatement, IMHO. A significant cause of disease and debility, including some chronic diseases? Sure, I could buy that.

[Hip]

"The Major" cause? That's an extreme overstatement, IMHO. A significant cause of disease and debility, including some chronic diseases? Sure, I could buy that.

There was supposed to be a question mark after the phrase "Pathogenic Microbes: The Major Cause of Aging", but unfortunately it got omitted.

The thing is, because there is such scant research, nobody really knows whether pathogens are the sole cause of most common diseases, the major cause of these diseases, or if they just play a more minor role.

But given the importance of this, and given how much money each nation spends on the health costs of these diseases, you'd think this research would be a main priority, not an afterthought.

If it turns out that pathogens are the major cause of common chronic diseases, and we develop means to control or eliminate these pathogens, so eradicating most of these common diseases, this would save probably trillions in health care costs. Not to mention the substantial boost to everyones quality of life and happiness.

So trillions are at stake, human happiness is at stake, yet funding in this research area is pitiful. This is the point made, a point which would be nice to open up for more discussion.

[Hip]

In fact, thinking about this more carefully: the thesis here may best be phrased as "are pathogenic microbes the major cause of premature aging"?

If one assumes that, in the absence of adverse events and accidents, the human body should be able to maintain both mental and physical fitness up to say the age 100, and that this should be the norm, then one can ask: what it is that makes some people "over the hill" by 45, both mentally, physically and energetically.

I think the most likely explanation for this premature aging of mind/body is the deleterious effects of the pathogenic microbes that have accumulated in the body. I posit that the higher a person's "total pathogenic load", the more likely they will experience premature aging (depending of course on the nature and virulence of the viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites they have accumulated).

Nobody wants to be mentally and physically past their prime at 45. Yet statistically it is common to find individuals that have aged quite noticeably and prematurely by 45.

So it is not aging per se that is the main concern, but premature aging.

We need to focus on the causes of premature aging, as for many people, this is going to be the first aging barrier they hit.

And to reiterate: a likely cause for premature aging is the damaging effects of pathogenic microbes in the body.

Edited by Hip, 27 August 2011 - 07:42 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The fact is, that noone so far has become immortal, so noone can argue with an absolute authenticity, that one or another theory is correct or not, so maybe some day the theory, that microorganisms are causing aging may appear to be the correct theory.
There are some simmilar theories of aging. There is a theory, that inflammation leads to aging.
My oppinion, however, is that there are too many aging changes, that are not caused by germs, for example the brain atrophy - there are samples, tooken from aging brain with severe aging, and there are no any microorganisms there. So, global aging theory on the bases of microorganisms according to me is not correct.

[Marios Kyriazis]

The toxins formed by microorganisms certainly have a negative effect on the body. However, you will find that even if we eliminate all pathogenic micoorganisms from the body (an unlikely scenario in any case), aging will still happen. Environmental toxins, radiation, random damage etc will still have a toll on the body, and so degenerative conditions will persist.

[Hip]

The toxins formed by microorganisms certainly have a negative effect on the body. However, you will find that even if we eliminate all pathogenic micoorganisms from the body (an unlikely scenario in any case), aging will still happen. Environmental toxins, radiation, random damage etc will still have a toll on the body, and so degenerative conditions will persist.

True, aging will still probably happen even if all pathogenic mico-organisms were eliminated from the body, though I suspect that:

(a) we will live considerably longer, and have far fewer major diseases hitting us during our lifespans;

(b) our aging will be more even, gradual and graceful, rather than the typical experience of aging, with usually involves specific organ failure, or failure of specific parts of metabolism, due to disease.

I don't think indefinite lifespans are a good thing anyway. Death may be a necessary "debriefing" session, for some transcendental element of our psyche, at the end of a incarnation mission. Plus we seem to need death to maintain evolutionary trajectory: the potent force of natural selection requires death in order to operate.

I just think it would be great if we could live in near perfect health throughout our lifespan (this rarely happens to most people), and then just die peacefully one day, during sleep say. That's a perfect life.

Edited by Hip, 11 October 2011 - 09:46 AM.

[Hip]

I found this very interesting study on one mechanism of aging directly promoted by chronic lifelong microbial infections in our body:

The nitric oxide hypothesis of aging



The authors state: "Our hypothesis is that recurrent infections over the life span play a significant role in producing aging changes in all systems outside the blood-brain barrier via release of toxic quantities of NO".

Nitric oxide (NO) is of course is generated in large amount to fight off viruses, bacteria, fungi, etc — at levels around 10 times higher than the NO that is produced for normal metabolic processes (NO is normally used by the body as a neurotransmitter, but at low levels).

[Brett Black]

This is an area that I have been interested in and examining for a while. I do think there is a decent case to be made that reducing exposure to many very common germs(which are currently generally considered relatively harmless by the medical profession) may have benefits for longterm health and aging.

One area of study that may have relevance is germ-free animals(1,2,3,4). These animals are (purportedly) born and live in completely sterile conditions. There have been a number of lifespan studies conducted on these animals, some showing increased lifespan, some not. Interestingly, germ-free rodents have sometimes been shown to live shorter lives than non-germ-free rodents when both are subjected to caloric restriction.

Specific pathogen free(SPF) animals may also have relevance, as these animals are guaranteed to be free from particularly pathogens, and are often housed and live in extremely clean environments.

In both cases though(germ-free and SPF) the "control" aka "conventional" animals (which they are compared against, and which are raised under less sterile conditions) may still be kept in environments that are comparatively much more sterile than what a normal human encounters. For instance they are not exposed to close contact with thousands of other animals and foods sources like most humans are. Thus the comparison might be characterized as being between "extremely clean" and "perfectly clean", rather than between "normal cleanliness" and "perfectly clean", which could obscure the impact somewhat, particularly in regards to relevance for free-living humans.

The immune system is believed to play important role in aging.

The concept/hypothesis of "inflammaging" is another area with much relevance(5). There is a lot of evidence to suggest that inflammation plays an important role in many of the degenerative changes and chronic diseases seen with aging. Bacteria and viruses that manage to infiltrate the body can initiate an immune response that includes inflammation, and this inflammation may play a significant role in aging and age-related diseases. One virus in particular, cytomegalovirus(CMV), seems to be particularly damaging, as the human immune system has a tendency to enter into a chronic low-level pro-inflammatory state when exposed to it(CMV cannot be eradicated by the body, but the immune system keeps trying to kill it, doing damage to the body in the process.)

Another potential problem is "immunosenescence" which is essentially the slow functional decline, dysfunction and death of the immune system that usually occurs with aging(6). It has some similarities with HIV/AIDS in that the immune system gradually becomes so weak and incapable that common, usually relatively harmless germs, can become deadly - hence the death of many elderly people from otherwise quite minor infections. It is currently believed that the immune system only has a finite number of times it can adapt to and sufficiently respond to novel pathogens. Thus, with each new pathogen exposure(possibly to something as simple as a common cold virus), the adaptive ability of the immune system is reduced until it becomes wasted and unable to adapt sufficiently to mount a viable defence.

As reference 8 succinctly sums up:
"In the elderly a chronic basal systemic inflammation prevails - which is evident by enhanced CRP or IL-6 plasma concentrations - and by compromised defense mechanisms against invading microbes. These alterations belong to the physiological ageing process of the immune system (immunosenescence) and are regarded as an inflammatory response towards lifelong antigen stress ("inflammatory/pathogen burden"). This lifelong antigen stress evokes an age-dependent basal inflammatory activation of innate immunity as well as a wasting of specific immunity: it is supposed that in the course of life-time due to a multitude of infectious/inflammatory events ("multiple hits") an inflammatory stress prevails or "inflammatory/pathogen burden" accumulates, which substantially contributes to an enhancement of the inflammatory parameters of natural immune response. Such enhanced inflammatory parameters characterize persons at increased risk of degenerative diseases like atherosclerosis or coronary heart disease. The risk is the higher, the higher the "pathogen burden""

I'm particularly concerned about cytomegalovirus(CMV):
"We believe that it is now established beyond reasonable doubt that the “harmless” herpesvirus CMV exerts a greatly deleterious effect on T cell immunity in aging and that the way in which the immune system copes with persistent infection with this virus contributes critically to immune status in aging and thereby to healthful longevity."(8)

Of note, in developed countries CMV has around a 50% prevelance in young adults, rising to about 90% by 80 years of age. The association of CMV with multiple diseases and dysfinction, its high frequency, the gradual increase in occurence with aging, combined with the possibility of avoiding it completely, seems to make it worthwhile of focus. CMV is spread by bodily fluids including saliva.
http://en.wikipedia....omegalovirus%29

With the right, careful, logical and evidenc-based hygiene regime, it may be possible to reduce exposure to these pathogens(including CMV) which may in turn possibly have significant beneficial effects on longterm(and short-term) health.


REFERENCES:
1. Gordon HA, Bruckner-Kardoss E, Wostmann BS. Aging in germ-free mice: life
tables and lesions observed at natural death. J Gerontol. 1966 Jul;21(3):380-7.
PubMed PMID: 5944800.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/5944800

2. Tazume S, Umehara K, Matsuzawa H, Aikawa H, Hashimoto K, Sasaki S. Effects of
germfree status and food restriction on longevity and growth of mice. Jikken
Dobutsu. 1991 Oct;40(4):517-22. PubMed PMID: 1748169
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1748169

3. Snyder DL, Pollard M, Wostmann BS, Luckert P. Life span, morphology, and
pathology of diet-restricted germ-free and conventional Lobund-Wistar rats. J
Gerontol. 1990 Mar;45(2):B52-8. PubMed PMID: 2313040.

4. Deerberg F, Pittermann W. The effect of germfree and SPF maintenance
conditions on the lifespan and diseases of small laboratory animals. J S Afr Vet
http://www.ncbi.nlm....v/pubmed/154573
Assoc. 1978 Sep;49(3):179-82. PubMed PMID: 154573.

5. Franceschi C. Inflammaging as a major characteristic of old people: can it be
prevented or cured? Nutr Rev. 2007 Dec;65(12 Pt 2):S173-6. Review. PubMed PMID:
18240544.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18240544
http://onlinelibrary...7.tb00358.x/pdf

6. Pawelec G, Koch S, Franceschi C, Wikby A. Human immunosenescence: does it have
an infectious component? Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2006 May;1067:56-65. Review. PubMed
PMID: 16803971.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16803971

7. The Role of the "Inflammatory/ Pathogen Burden" for Cardiac Ageing (AntiCardAgeing)
Martin-Luther-Universität Halle-Wittenberg, ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT01045512
http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01045512

[Brett Black]

I messed up some of the citations in my last post, and since I can no longer edit that post I have made the corrections in the following quoted blocks of text(bolded and underlined for easier identification):

As reference 7 succinctly sums up:
"In the elderly a chronic basal systemic inflammation prevails - which is evident by enhanced CRP or IL-6 plasma concentrations - and by compromised defense mechanisms against invading microbes. These alterations belong to the physiological ageing process of the immune system (immunosenescence) and are regarded as an inflammatory response towards lifelong antigen stress ("inflammatory/pathogen burden"). This lifelong antigen stress evokes an age-dependent basal inflammatory activation of innate immunity as well as a wasting of specific immunity: it is supposed that in the course of life-time due to a multitude of infectious/inflammatory events ("multiple hits") an inflammatory stress prevails or "inflammatory/pathogen burden" accumulates, which substantially contributes to an enhancement of the inflammatory parameters of natural immune response. Such enhanced inflammatory parameters characterize persons at increased risk of degenerative diseases like atherosclerosis or coronary heart disease. The risk is the higher, the higher the "pathogen burden""

I'm particularly concerned about cytomegalovirus(CMV):
"We believe that it is now established beyond reasonable doubt that the “harmless” herpesvirus CMV exerts a greatly deleterious effect on T cell immunity in aging and that the way in which the immune system copes with persistent infection with this virus contributes critically to immune status in aging and thereby to healthful longevity."(6)


REFERENCES

6. Pawelec G, Koch S, Franceschi C, Wikby A. Human immunosenescence: does it have
an infectious component? Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2006 May;1067:56-65. Review. PubMed
PMID: 16803971.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16803971

7. The Role of the "Inflammatory/ Pathogen Burden" for Cardiac Ageing (AntiCardAgeing)
Martin-Luther-Universität Halle-Wittenberg, ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier: NCT01045512
http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT01045512

[Hip]

Very interesting post, Brett Black.

[xEva]

I too have been following this topic with interest. One of the ways intracellular pathogens age us is by inhibiting autophagy, which is the primary way a cell gets rid of such invaders. In this respect it is also interesting to note that many of the premature aging syndromes involve defects in autophagy. A hallmark of an aged cell is accumulation of junk proteins, including junk metochondria; and that's the major reason an aged cell is several times larger than a young one.

So, inhibition of autophagy is the survival strategy of intracellular pathogens, which we do tend to accumulate with time. Autophagy also plays an important role in immunity (those foreign proteins have to be broken down in vacuoles before being presented in the cell's major hystocompatibility complex) and when it is disrupted, the consequences are many and they are complex. On the other hand, the reason fasting is "rejuvenating" and "healing" is exactly because it is the strongest upregulator of autophagy known. Fasting overcomes pathogens' inhibition of autophagy, and then a cell literally lunches on its invaders and gets rid of its normally accumulated junk in the process.

[caston]

Excellent posts guys. The role of biological pathogens in the ageing process is something that I base Rejuvepedia around. I'd say that ageing is largely about a) biological pathogens and b) oxidative damage.

I have also been reading up about how pathogens attempt to exploit or disable autophagy in the cell; autophagy is the intracellular immune system. You also shouldn't be so glum about the prospects of getting rid of the bacteria.
They mainly evade the immune system by forming biofilms. These biofilms can be broken down a number of ways such as pulsed anti-biotics or antibiofilm agents. I have began to build a list of anti biofilm agents on rejuvepedia.
http://www.rejuveped...ibiofilm_agents (should also come up first in a google search for antibiofilm agents)
Please let me know if you are interested in helping building the list.

Also here is a paper about
Autophagy in intracellular bacterial infection.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19303905

Edited by caston, 31 October 2011 - 05:10 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I think, that aging is not because of microorganisms.
There are diseases of accelerated aging, gathered in several syndromes, and named progeria
The reasons for these diseases ARE PROVEN TO BE GENETIC.
So, I don't think, that the main cause for the aging are the microorganisms

[caston]

Youthfulness is also about accuracy and precision in protein folding.

Edited by caston, 02 November 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[Hip]

I have began to build a list of anti biofilm agents on rejuvepedia.
http://www.rejuveped...ibiofilm_agents (should also come up first in a google search for antibiofilm agents)
Please let me know if you are interested in helping building the list.

An excellent list of anti biofilm agents, Caston.

It is important to minimize the populations of bad bacteria in the body.

But is it also important to minimize the toxins they generate too.

One of the main ways that bacteria damage and disrupt the human body is by the bacterial toxins (endotoxins, exotoxins and enterotoxins) bacteria constantly synthesize while resident in the body.

One category of bacterial exotoxins are the pore forming toxins. As the name suggests, pore forming toxins implant holes into human cells, which causes disruption to the cell, as ions leak out, which affects the electrical properties of the cell (transmembrane potential), and alters the cells internal electrolyte balance. Staphylococcus alpha toxin is a well-known pore forming toxin. Long term infection of Staphylococcus is found in guts of 7% of the adult population, and in these people, alpha toxin will likely affect their health for the worse.

In fact, a lot of the time, it is the bacterial toxins, not the bacteria themselves, that cause havoc in the body. So in order to deal with the pernicious health effects of bacteria, we need to consider this.

As an example of the potency of these bacterial toxins, note that tetanus vaccine is not directed at the Clostridium tetani bacterium itself, but rather at a very nasty toxin this bacterium makes, called tetanospasmin (also known as tetanus toxin).

The tetanus vaccine is a toxoid vaccine which teaches the immune system to make antibodies against this tetanospasmin toxin. Thus, after having this vaccination, if you are unfortunate enough to acquire a Clostridium tetani infection, its tetanospasmin toxin can be quickly neutralized by antibodies made by your immune system, and this neutralization hugely reduces the overall nastiness of the infection, so that the body can cope. Without this toxin neutralization, Clostridium tetani infection is fatal in 30% of cases. This is just to illustrate the nastiness and significance of bacterial toxins. Of course, not all bacterial toxins are quite as potent as tetanospasmin toxin.


The take-home point here, from the longevity perspective, is that each species of bacterium found in the body (and any given person will have quite a few species in their body) individually produces half a dozen or more different bacterial toxins, and most of these bacterial toxins generally have a pernicious, damaging effect of the body. The average person may thus have 20 or 30 say bacterial toxins in their body, all acting to reduce health.

And while you may try to avoid nasty environmental toxins for the purposes of health and longevity, you cannot so easily avoid the bacterial toxins constantly being made inside your body, which probably do more damage in the long term that most environmental toxins we encounter.

Also, note that antibiotics rarely can eradicate a bacterial infection; they just reduce the bacterial population. So this means many bacterial infections we acquire are there for life.

[xEva]

I think, that aging is not because of microorganisms.
There are diseases of accelerated aging, gathered in several syndromes, and named progeria
The reasons for these diseases ARE PROVEN TO BE GENETIC.
So, I don't think, that the main cause for the aging are the microorganisms

You are right. I recently looked up progerias and most involve problems with "the nuclear lamina that participates in organizing chromatin and supporting the nuclear envelope, which limits the ability of cells to divide".

However, intracellular pathogens do play very important role in aging by suppressing autophagy, which plays the essential role in cell homeostasis, as well as in recycling old organelles, including damaged mitochondria. When autophagy is disrupted, a cell looks and acts old: it accumulates all sorts of junk and its function suffers, which are the hallmarks of an old cell. Dysfunctional cells make up dysfunctional organs. In addition, disabled autophagy is linked to accelerated oncogenesis. Fasting acts as a strong promoter of autophagy, overcomming their blocking signals, and then the cell gets rid of both its pathogens and accumulated junk.

But... I just found out that there is a handful of pathogens that exploit authopagy for their own growth and then, it seems, cells suppress autophagy as the means of controlling them... with the same deleterious results I'm making a list of these bugs in connection with my fasting studies.

I believe that microorganisms that colonize us act as agents of biological entropy. And I don't mean "symbionts" that make up our normal flora and live on skin or found on mucous membranes, in lungs or intestinal tract -- even though they too can cause problems with their metabolites. The real trouble comes from "invisible" bugs that stealthily invade our cells, lymphatic and blood vessels, joints, etc. Over the decades, they slowly accumulate and form complex biofilms that promote their own survival at the expense of ours. Those are the true invaders and they do age us, starting with disruption of immunity and ending with disruption of function of various organs. Essentially, they start working on breaking up our bodies long before actual death occurs, following which they only intensify doing what they've been doing all along.

[GhostBuster]

I think that the following study demonstrates how harmful microbes can cause damage to the body (and promote premature aging) AND how it is possible to fight back using good microbes to beat the bad ones.

Probiotic bacteria LKM512 extends lifespan in animal study

http://www.ergo-log.com/lkm512.html

(check out the pics!)

Impact of LKM512 yogurt on improvement of intestinal environment of the elderly.


Abstract

Improvement of the intestinal environment by administration of LKM512 yogurt was examined using polyamine, haptoglobin and mutagenicity as indexes which directly reflect the health condition of the host. The concentration of spermine in feces increased significantly by 3-fold (P<0.05) at week 2 of administration of LKM512 yogurt compared with before administration, and that of putrescine, spermidine, and cadaverine also tended to increase with administration of LKM512 yogurt. The haptoglobin content in feces decreased significantly (P<0.05) at week 2 of administration of LKM512 yogurt, and it showed a negative correlation with the polyamine content, indicating that acute intestinal inflammation was suppressed. Fecal mutagenicity was measured using fecal extract and fecal precipitate. Both preparations showed similar significant decreases (P<0.05) by the administration of LKM512 yogurt, as well as a negative correlation with polyamine content. This result indicated that antimutagenicity due to administration of LKM512 yogurt was not based on binding of the mutagen to the bacterial cell wall. Many reports have suggested that polyamines increased by the administration of LKM512 yogurt led to inhibition of inflammation and antimutagenicity in the intestinal tract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11720813

[Hip]

I think that the following study demonstrates how harmful microbes can cause damage to the body (and promote premature aging) AND how it is possible to fight back using good microbes to beat the bad ones.

Probiotic bacteria LKM512 extends lifespan in animal study

http://www.ergo-log.com/lkm512.html

An interesting study, GhostBuster.


Probiotics/prebiotics are certainly an excellent, safe and usually well-tolerated way to reduce the populations of bad bacteria in the guts.

Not only that, but probiotics seem to boost mucosal defenses. The mucous membranes have their own immune system, and this mucosal immune system is the first line of defense against invading viruses, bacteria, etc. Thus if you have strong mucosal defenses, you will likely fend off most respiratory and gastrointestinal pathogens in the first instance, before they get a chance to enter your body.

See here, for example: Do probiotics prevent childhood illnesses?

Of course, as you get older, you will eventually acquire most of the common problematic respiratory and gastrointestinal viruses in circulation, like cytomegalovirus for example. Cytomegalovirus is found in around 50% of people by adulthood, and in around 90% of elderly people, presumably showing that the longer you live, the higher your chances of acquiring cytomegalovirus.

Nevertheless, boosting mucosal defenses (using probiotics, and other means) may significantly delay the acquiring of cytomegalovirus and all the other common respiratory and gastrointestinal viruses in circulation, pushing back acquisition to a later point in life. The longer you can push back the tide of these respiratory and gastrointestinal pathogens, the better the prospects for your long term health,^† as once you catch them, most of these viruses and bacteria will become permanent residents in your body, and may start instigating pathogenic processes.

What about the existing pathogenic viruses, bacteria, fungi and protozoa in your body?

Well, for gut bacteria, one thing that life-extenders may want to consider is getting a full digestive stool analysis done (this costs around $200 or so), in order to determine which species of bad bacteria they have in their gut (if any). Then, if you found that you harbored one or more potentially problematic bacterial species in your gut — like Staphylococcus aureus (or MRSA), Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Proteus, or a bad strain of E. coli, for example — perhaps it might be beneficial for long term health to take some action to bring these bacteria under better control. This could involve the regular use of probiotics/prebiotics, and/or antibacterial herbs. Though a more interesting and effective idea might be to get phage therapy, which is where you use bacteriophages (bacteriophages = viruses that target and kill bacteria), to zap most of the bacterial infection in one go. Phage therapy can also work well for chronic kidney infections (which are associated with causing health problems in the long term).

Something like phage therapy might be a worthwhile long term health investment, if you do have some bad bacteria in your gut. However, ridiculously enough, although phage therapy is often more effective that antibiotics, and has been around for a long time, it has never been properly developed, and as far as I am aware, the only commercial phage therapy available in the world is in the Republic of Georgia. Go figure! Here is a natural therapy that can not only treat bacterial infection, but may also have a great preventative action by largely eliminating bacteria before they can cause trouble, and yet it is marginalized.

In this perspective of health investments, this is an interesting finding: Flu Can Be Fatal In Children With MRSA.



† Note that I am primary interested in considerations on maximizing healthspan, more than lifespan. This is because it is healthspan that usually comes to an end first, often long before lifespan comes to its end. There is an argument, therefore, that in practice, healthspan is the limiting factor in longevity (especially if you get something like Alzheimer's or similar). As someone who is semi-housebound due to acquiring chronic fatigue syndrome from a respiratory virus, I am all too aware of the importance of focusing on healthspan — and the avoidance of pathogens.

Edited by Hip, 09 November 2011 - 10:04 PM.

[Brett Black]

I've started a new topic that is related to some of the issues discussed in this thread:
"Dietary fat = cause of chronic low-grade systemic inflammation?"
http://www.longecity...c-inflammation/

[Lufega]

Consuming fermented foods like yogurt and kefir are associated with longevity. Can it be that accumulating a burden load of unfriendly biotics can decrease longevity ?

[firespin]

Consuming fermented foods like yogurt and kefir are associated with longevity. Can it be that accumulating a burden load of unfriendly biotics can decrease longevity ?

I believe so...Pathogenic bacteria release toxins that can cause aging and in some cases cancer. Yogurt have "helpful probiotic bacteria" that kills off the pathogenic bacteria.

[Luminosity]

"The microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything." --------- Louis Pasteur

[Hip]

"The microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything." --------- Louis Pasteur

That is not a particularly clever statement.

The microbe and the "terrain" (that is, the host body) are intimately interrelated and equally important, having co-evolved together. Microbes often evolve such that they can better manipulate and control the metabolic pathways of the host, especially with regards to the manipulation of the host's immune system, to prevent the host from fighting the microbe. This is known as immune evasion: where microbes have learnt to "throw a spanner in the works" of the host immune system.

[xEva]

The microbe and the "terrain" (that is, the host body) are intimately interrelated and equally important, having co-evolved together. Microbes often evolve such that they can better manipulate and control the metabolic pathways of the host, especially with regards to the manipulation of the host's immune system, to prevent the host from fighting the microbe. This is known as immune evasion: where microbes have learnt to "throw a spanner in the works" of the host immune system.

Totally concur. People in general do not appreciate how microbes evolved to manipulate our immune system and our metabolism. That's why, I believe, it is healthy to switch the metabolic modes once in a while, to change "the terrain" in which a given bug is comfortable, thus kicking it out. That's why occasional fasts are so beneficial: they rid you of this type of tenants. That's the plain and simple reason why fasts have been traditionally touted as cure-alls. Getting rid of "toxins" and rejuvenation were mere side effects of the main thing: kicking out intracellular bugs by upregulating autophagy.

[Luminosity]

"The microbe is nothing; the terrain is everything." -- Louis Pasteur quoted by Luminosity

That is not a particularly clever statement. -- Hip

So you know more than Louis Pasteur?

Pathogens can mutate, that's not new information, but the whole of your theories I don't agree with. I believe that if you don't have waste materials in your body such as excess mucous, or excess acidity, and your energy is circulating strongly, pathogens will not have a toehold. I believe that and Louis Pasteur believed that and Chinese Medicine believes that. You can believe what you want, but what's the rudeness and the tone of absolutely certainty about? I'd say, neither one is warranted.

Edited by Luminosity, 07 October 2012 - 05:37 AM.

[Hip]

So you know more than Louis Pasteur?

Well obviously the answer to that is yes, as do most people with education in modern biology.

Pasteur died in 1895 — before the structure DNA was unraveled, before modern genetics was developed, before modern understandings of the amazing complexities of the immune system, before the quantum theory of matter was discovered, etc, etc. All this was unknown to him.

No doubt Pasteur's brilliant mind would have grasped all this modern knowledge effortlessly had he been born in this era; but in general people knew very little about biology in Pasteur's time, compared to the wealth of biological knowledge we have these days.

Pathogens can mutate, that's not new information, but the whole of your theories I don't agree with. I believe that if you don't have waste materials in your body such as excess mucous, or excess acidity, and your energy is circulating strongly, pathogens will not have a toehold.

"If your energy is circulating strongly, pathogens will not have a toehold". Hmm, that sounds like some hocus pocus New Age philosophy, rather than anything based on science or fact.

Try "getting your energy to circulate properly", and then expose yourself to Ebola virus, and see if you magical circulating energy will protect you.

Edited by Hip, 07 October 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Logic]

I have also been reading up about how pathogens attempt to exploit or disable autophagy in the cell; autophagy is the intracellular immune system. You also shouldn't be so glum about the prospects of getting rid of the bacteria.
They mainly evade the immune system by forming biofilms. These biofilms can be broken down a number of ways such as pulsed anti-biotics or antibiofilm agents. I have began to build a list of anti biofilm agents on rejuvepedia.
http://www.rejuveped...ibiofilm_agents (should also come up first in a google search for antibiofilm agents)
Please let me know if you are interested in helping building the list.

Thx for the list Caston

Perhaps look into Coconut Oil.
It removes the lipid coating in lipid coated virii and kills other bacteria, fugii/pathogens.
http://coconutoil.com/mary_enig/

Also see the references here:
http://www.coconutdiet.com/viruses.htm

BHT (Butylated hydroxytoluene) also removes lipid layers.
(Note that BHT increased lifespan in rats (or mice (cant remember)) by 20%...)

[xEva]

Antibiotics and fasting

I posted this idea a couple of days ago perhaps in a wrong thread --simply cause that's where conversation came up-- but I am really interested in your opinion about my hypothesis, which has been ripening in my head for the past several years. The idea is that by combining an antibiotic therapy with fasting one can greatly increase the efficiency of fasting as a health improvement method.

This idea was based not so much on studies, even though there is plenty on autophagy and pathogens in cell culture already... The first hint I got was years ago when I noticed that sarcoidosis was cured in Russia with series of long fasts and the same disease was treated with antibiotics in Marshall protocol in the US -?! It intrigued me no end that such vastly different methods could cure what is otherwise touted as an "incurable autoimmune" disease. Also, due to some personal history, I have never had faith in "autoimmune" paradigm, having been the follower of the pathogen etiology of all diseases (aside from obvious poisonings, trauma and genetic mishaps, of course).

Having put 'fasting' and 'antibiotics' tentatively together, I read hundreds of fasting logs. Soon I realized that the main result of fasting is in riddance of pathogens. However, some pathogens cooperate, forming complex communities. There are ruffly two types of the bugs: those that succumb to autophagy and those that exploit it for their own growth. Thus, if you only have bugs of the first type, a week or two of fasting should cure you. But if you have both types then you are basically screwed, because as you upregulate autophagy to fight the first type of bugs, the second type proliferates, and visa versa. In fact, this example with autophagy, which is just one aspect of immunity, is an example of how a community of bugs with diverse modi operandi could gang up and make it virtually impossible for the immune system to take them out (and it also explains why the immune system is so complex and has so many different ways of going after the same thing).

Now, another thing about fasting is that most people complain about bad smells that become noticeable a few days into a fast. Very few actually recognize these smells as bacterial and fungal metabolites, or very plain signs of infection. Back in the 19th C it was noticed (and later popularized by Shelton) that a successful fast ends with resolution of such bad smells -- which only means that in the course of a fast the immune sys kicks out the tenants. I noticed long ago that fasting immediately after a course of antibiotics not only prevents such unpleasant problem from occurring in the first place, but that the fast itself proceeds much easier and gives better results.

And so I came up with a theory that during a fast the body, first of all, fights the pathogens that we hardly notice until they overrun us, and even then we call such chronic infections "autoimmune diseases" or simply "old age". I believe the main result of fasting is the achievement of metabolic integrity. I also played, cautiously, with antibiotics. I believe that combining antibiotics with fasting, we can achieve remarkable results. (I never used antibiotics during a fast, but only just before or the first couple of days going into).

So, I was wondering who else used antibiotics in conjunction with fasting?

What do you think? Would you do it yourself? Did you? Results? Comments?

Edited by xEva, 10 October 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[xEva]

"The Major" cause? That's an extreme overstatement, IMHO. A significant cause of disease and debility, including some chronic diseases? Sure, I could buy that.

If we look at history and some current statistics, here is what we get for the lifespan:

Fact 1: it is well known that the improvements in public hygiene, in the end of 19-beginning of 20th C, were solely responsible for the significant increase in the average life span

Fact 2: representatives of the medical profession live, on average, shorter lives.

In both cases --I hope others will add to this list-- the key is the level of exposure to pathogens. In the first case, improvements in water supply greatly diminished people's exposure. In the second case, the same exposure to pathogens is what must be behind the shorter lives in the profession whose representatives should know more than anyone else about health and have a better access to healthcare. And yet it seems their sheer exposure is the decisive factor.

Someone above talked about eradicating pathogens from the human body as an impossible feat. Well, first, what most people think right away when faced with such a proposition, is about living in a bubble (which, by the way, never offered sterility, since it is not achievable in practice anyway) with no symbiotic microbes on the skin, mucous membranes and in the gut. This is NOT what this is all about, even though, true, often the line between a pathogen and a symbiont is blurred. In the end, when the immune system is completely disrupted by pathogens, it is the symbionts that join in on the party and finish off the host.

The way to go, in my opinion, is to periodically clear the bugs out of the tissues, which fasting, apparently, always did. Adding antibiotics to the method makes it more efficient.

Edited by xEva, 10 October 2012 - 03:32 PM.