2626 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

Yes, ADHD-PI is the subtype that I come closest to identifying with. I look forward to see what DSMV comes up with. Here's to hoping it includes something like this:

http://en.wikipedia....cognitive_tempo

[unbeatableking]

Why not continue with the stimulants though? Doesn't it feel nice having all of that energy to work? Get things done?

I'll look at the book and get back to you. Sleep time beckons.

[gizmobrain]

Honestly, forskolin + artichoke + 5mg time released d-amphetamine was the bees knees for me. Much better than anything I've ever tried before then or after.

I have no insurance right now. I can't afford nor do I want to purchase amphetamine on the black market.

So I continue my quest onward and upward to find other ways to induce motivation.

[CIMN]

it could be the luteolin
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19815045

[sparkk51]

I thought amphetamins and methylphenidate increased cAMP. Also, hoes does one lower cAMP?

[IA87]

In fact, quercetin by itself still has a negative impact on me.* I was reading some behavioralist (in the context of psychology) texts and noticed a marked decrease in understanding. I take a fairly large dose of concerta (54 mg normally; my 36 mg dose yesterday was unusual), and I find it extremely stimulating by itself. I would hazard a guess that the addition of quercetin (and probably alcar) has excited me to the extent that my working memory and, by extension, comprehension, is impaired.


*I have added two things to my regiment since I last engaged in strenuous mental activity: quercetin and alcar. Therefore, I cannot rule quercetin as the sole cause of this issue. Indeed, it may not even be responsible at all. I will remove both from my regiment and see what happens. If I go back to baseline, I'll try adding one, and I'll replace it with the other the next day. This, hopefully, will determine the cause.

[khemix]

My experience with 10mg forskolin (20% extract) and 300mg of artichoke for 3 days are that is very powerful stuff. I can't feel it improved my long term memory, so I'll only state my subjective experiences:

-undoes whatever SSRIs do. I felt I wasn't on Lexapro when CILPET was in my system.
-can feel energy in my head, similar to how adderall fills you with it, but not as much of a rush tho a little bit of mania
-very powerful to combat fatigue
-powerful crash towards mid night, almost on par with what adderall does. i like it though, helps you sleep because mind is empty.

[unbeatableking]

ALCAR is partially anxiogenic (anxiety-causing) - in a dose-dependent fashion of course.

Many people have eschewed the addition of ALCAR to their regimens primarily because of this issue.

In many of these cases, people report feeling much too anxious and jittery to get any work done. So I would get rid of the ALCAR.

[hephaestus]

I took this stack with methylphenidate for the first time today and noticed the same swimmy, tunnel visiony effects that others have reported, as well as a difficulty concentrating on the 'bigger picture' of things that I am reading. It works very well for me with amphetamines, effectively replenishing my neurotransmitters, so I'm guessing it is due to an overproduction of DA, more than I need with a DA/NE reuptake inhibitor. I would suggest lowering your dosage on this stack, as well as mph, and see if it works better.

Edited by hephaestus, 20 August 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[IA87]

I don't have the luxury of reducing my mph intake unless I manipulate the ER pills. I really don't want to do this, so I have decided to keep myself off the ciltep stack until I am at baseline, then I will see about doing the procedure I described in my previous post.

[canz]

So I've been experimenting with the CILTEP for three days now. I have been taking 10mg LEF brand forskolin, and 500mg NOW brand artichoke extract. So far here are my observations:

Day 1: Took 10mg Forskolin/500mg artichoke extract on an empty stomach. Within 30 minutes I felt pleasant, and felt motivated to clean my house (unusual). I washed all dishes in my sink by hand (I refuse to do this typically because I have a dish washer). After about an hour I noted my mood as positive, calm and motivated to accomplish things. I felt kind of swimmy in my head, but nothing major. I have a memory app on my phone that has different exercises for spatial memory and fluid intelligence that I decided to play about three hours after dosing. I noticed and increased ability to concentrate on the tests and I maxed out my score on the level that I had currently left from the last time I played. I have never maxed the score out on these levels. Overall the effects were subtle, but noticeable.

Day 2: 10mg forskolin/500mg artichoke/500mg l-phenylalanine: Irritability. I think the l-phenylalanine was too stimulating. I must not have a dopamine deficiency because this made me uncomfortable and irritable. I took 400mg of l-theanine and within the next 30 minutes I was fine. I noticed and increase in concentration while doing tasks pleasant mood, and motivation to get off of my rear and do things.

Day 3: 10mg forskolin/500mg x2 artichoke: I upped my artichoke dose to 1000mg versus 500mg and experienced some irritability within the first 30 minutes of the dose. I immediately took 400mg of l-theanine. I've decided that I like l-theanine by itself to alleviate anxiety, irritability and to assist in increased mood and I think it helps with the CILTEP stack to prevent over stimulation (for me). Within 30 minutes of the theanine dose the irritability subsided. However, within a few hours I developed a pressure headache.

So far it seems that 10mg/500mg is the right dose for me. I will continue to take theanine with the stack as I feel that it balances my neurotransmitters enough to prevent over stimulation or sedation that the stack may cause. Tomorrow I will re-attempt tests on the cambridge website as well as dual-n-back and see if my results have improved while on this stack. I have not experienced any tiredness on this stack at all.

[summertimex]

what is very interesting is its metabolic stimulating properties, it does light the brain up also. so some people have to watch for basically drugs that are stored in fat cells or lipofusion and pockets in the brain. as it seems to melt for example an antidepressant that was taken previously, or the alchohol from parties. so some people have to take a higher amount of glutathione precursors, especially older people, in order to prevent oxidation and things of that sort.

[health_nutty]

Any updates on the Sesathin?

[CIMN]

it thought this would fit in with this thread so I'm sharing it here

http://library.cshl....rch-highlights/

[unbeatableking]

^

The main problem is that: STM ---> LTM.

LTP is the 'neurological' basis for the STM/LTM connection. Anything that doesn't enter your STM will not enter your LTM.

Short-term memory (STM) can be described as a system allowing one to temporarily store and manage information that is necessary to complete complex cognitive tasks.^[1] Tasks which employ short-term memory include learning, reasoning, and comprehension.

Another problem is that the bulk of all LTP studies done with the use of Rolipram were conducted using behavioral/spatial tests. Those that did utilize STM tests came up short: the drug had no effect on STM.

Further evidence also seems to prove that a rise in cAMP signaling causes short-term memory deficits. cAMP signaling -> HCN -> Impeded STM.

In hindsight, I don't think the stack is viable for individuals who rely heavily on comprehension and rote reading. Also, all of the positives mentioned in this thread seem to point to two things:

1. The stack is only viable from a non-linguistic standpoint. Mathematics being an example.

2. It is a potent mood and energy booster.

All those who have used the stack in order to do rote reading have complained of deficits in relation to memory.

All of this seems to point to one conclusion: that the regimen is not conducive for reading.

[hephaestus]

All those who have used the stack in order to do rote reading have complained of deficits in relation to memory.

You definitely don't have evidence to support this claim. You don't know everyone who has used this stack, and lots of people that have used it have not reported short term memory deficits.

[unbeatableking]

That was a hyperbole on my part. I apologize. I was in a rush towards the bathroom.

But that doesn't change the fact that many people who have tried this stack have complained of STM deficits.

In addition, there is a legitimate, neurological basis for this occurrence. So if anything, it is much more logical to presume that this stack is therefore not conducive for reading.

Have you yourself not complained of deficits with regards to reading as brought upon by this stack?

The science speaks for itself.

Edited by unbeatableking, 21 August 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[unbeatableking]

BTW, you misconstrued my point.

Everyone here, who has spoken of rote reading done in conjunction with the CILTEP stack, have complained of memory issues.

So yes. I do think I have evidence. Do take note that I said rote reading. And not Mathematics or Programming.

Edited by unbeatableking, 21 August 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[unbeatableking]

The Arnsten Lab hypothesized a role for HCN channels in working memory impairment. If, because of neurological disease, HCN channels in dendritic spines are over-active, they would prevent electrical impulses from traveling through the spine. Too many open HCN channels would increase the conductivity of the membrane to such an extent than many impulses entering the neuron through the spine would effectively be shunted out of the cell. This would prevent information from being reliably passed between the networks of neurons that form the cellular basis of working memory, causing working memory impairment.

The HCN channel is heavily interconnected with cAMP signaling in vivo.

[hephaestus]

I did mention a short term memory deficit when combining this stack with methylphenidate, but not amphetamine. I suspect it would work well with mph, I just need to lower the dose to avoid overproduction of dopamine.

[unbeatableking]

So have you tried this with dextroamphetamine?

[hephaestus]

I have tried it with mixed amphetamine salts and found it to eliminate the brain fog that is common in people taking amphetamines for extended periods. Did not have any memory issues.

[unbeatableking]

I find the dopamine-overproduction theory much too non-parsimonious. There is already a clear physiological process underlying this drop in working memory, one brought upon by excessive cAMP signaling.

So if anything, the point still stands.

And if anything, methylphenidate has been proven by studies to increase STM - coincidentally, by working on a2-adrenoreceptors and thereby counteracting the very cAMP/HCN process of contention in this thread.

[gizmobrain]

So far it seems that 10mg/500mg is the right dose for me. I will continue to take theanine with the stack as I feel that it balances my neurotransmitters enough to prevent over stimulation or sedation that the stack may cause. Tomorrow I will re-attempt tests on the cambridge website as well as dual-n-back and see if my results have improved while on this stack. I have not experienced any tiredness on this stack at all.

Good to hear it.

L-theanine would be a good adjunct to this stack for anyone with issues of irritability, anxiety or nervousness (which I attribute to the forskolin causing increased glutamate release).

We' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2916990/']We have shown that the activation of adenylyl cyclase with forskolin enhanced the amplitude of EPSCs and abolished LTD. This finding is consistent with numerous studies showing that activation of adenylyl cyclase increases the probability of glutamate release (Chavez-Noriega & Stevens, 1994; Tzounopoulos et al. 1998).

→ source (external link)

Edited by zrbarnes, 21 August 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[hephaestus]

That sounds like support for my theory, not evidence against it. CILTEP messes with my memory when I am taking mph and not when I am taking amphetamines. If mph counteracts the effect you propose for short term memory deficiency, it should be the other way around. I don't think there is any argument against ciltep increasing dopamine production.

[unbeatableking]

^

You are aware that working memory is impeded by cAMP signaling, correct?

This is what CILTEP does. It prevents the enzymatic deactivation of cAMP, thereby preventing the closure of HCN channels. This lack of closure is hypothesized to prevent the formation of short term memories. Which is why so many people keep complaining about working memory deficits whilst on this stack.

Methylphenidate closes these HCN channels by acting on a2-adrenoreceptors, thereby allowing for the formation of short term memories, leading to a boost in memory.

So do you mind telling me why this finding supports your theory? Did you not say that Methylphenidate causes short term memory deficits? There are entire studies that contradict your claim.

[gizmobrain]

I bet you are a blast at parties. :D

[unbeatableking]

^

Wouldn't know. Medical students don't really have that sort of privilege.

[hephaestus]

I did not say mph causes short term memory deficits, better work on your reading comprehension if you plan on making it through med school. You said that mph should counteract the memory deficits caused by this stack, and I am telling you, anecdotally, that I have memory problems from this stack when I take mph, but not amphetamines. If the memory problems were caused by increased cAMP, and mph fixes that, then I should have worse memory when combining this stack with amphetamines than mph, which is not the case.

Edited by hephaestus, 21 August 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[unbeatableking]

You said that taking the stack in conjunction with methylphenidate caused you memory problems. Do you want to argue semantics? Is there a deeper psychological meaning to this statement?

The literature goes against your experience. Frankly, there are a plethora of varying variables that could encompass this odd reaction to CILTEP. This nigh-simplistic toss around of hypotheses with no basis in science however, is not doing anything for those amongst us who want to learn something from all of this.

I'd like to note that the methylphenidate study was done independent of CILTEP, which could explain your 'reaction'. But given that they work on similar pathways, I am inclined to speak of this issue from a theoretical standpoint.

The internal validity of these studies is sound. When you start to factor in various extraneous variables into the mix however, things start to get leery - as in the real world.

I am simply saying that if we are to make statements in this topic, we should do so from the perspective of science. Deriving conclusions from subjective anecdotes is akin to the phenomenologist perspective so rampantly utilized in psychology a century ago.

Was this topic not founded on studies done on Rolipram?

By the way, I am addressing your supposition that the study cited supports your theory - if you re-read it, you will see that it doesn't.

MPH not fixing your problem does not make the study flawed. The study was done in a controlled environment with many other stringent conditions.

In your case, we have n=1. N=1 is taking more than one supplement. In this case, which do you think has greater internal validity? The study done within the confines of a lab or your case?

Edited by unbeatableking, 22 August 2012 - 12:03 AM.