2626 replies to this topic

[X_Danny_X]

So far these supplements is only for memory enhancement and to able to absorb more information. There is nothing here to increase cognitive enhancement/fluid intelligence? Galantamine is ofcourse to help increase memory.

[gizmobrain]

So far these supplements is only for memory enhancement and to able to absorb more information. There is nothing here to increase cognitive enhancement/fluid intelligence? Galantamine is ofcourse to help increase memory.

Well, this is a thread about Chemically induced LTP. There is a thread about fluid intelligence, if you are interested.

LTP isn't just long term memory encoding. It's related to synaptic plasticity, which has large implications in cognitive enhancement.

I won't try to recreate the wheel here on research, I'll just link you to the wikipedia entry:

In' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_potentiation']In neuroscience, long-term potentiation (LTP) is a long-lasting enhancement in signal transmission between two neurons that results from stimulating them synchronously.[2] It is one of several phenomena underlying synaptic plasticity, the ability of chemical synapses to change their strength. As memories are thought to be encoded by modification of synaptic strength,[3] LTP is widely considered one of the major cellular mechanisms that underlies learning and memory.

→ source (external link)

Check out the whole article (and sources) for all the info you'll ever need.

Edited by zrbarnes, 13 October 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[gizmobrain]

For those with irritability while on Forskolin, I would be very interested to know if Gingko + Gotu Kola eliminates it.

Theoretically, Gingko should shift the balance of dopamine/glutamate back in favor of the dopamine, and Gotu Kola should enhance GABA a bit. Heck, you could even complete the stack with Ginseng as your stimulant, if you really wanted to go all Chinese medicine. (Forskolin is Ayurvedic though, so I hope you aren't racist, haha.)

[Mr. Pink]

i've been taking gingko and can't say it eliminates the irritability. but, i believe my irritibility is from the artichoke as it was present before the forskolin was added. artichoke by itself made me feel incredibly spaced out and weird. adding the forskolin (4mg), made me able to concentrate again, but the irritibility is still there. ginko was always present with both conditions.

[gizmobrain]

i've been taking gingko and can't say it eliminates the irritability. but, i believe my irritibility is from the artichoke as it was present before the forskolin was added. artichoke by itself made me feel incredibly spaced out and weird. adding the forskolin (4mg), made me able to concentrate again, but the irritibility is still there. ginko was always present with both conditions.

There have been several folks in this thread that have reported bad results without mentioning that they are taking several other things in combination with the stack. Herbs, strong stimulants, SSRI's, various supplements, and minerals can all effect the performance of the stack, and if you don't state that you are taking them, then how are we supposed to give advice?

My advice for people who are trialing this stack: for 3 days, wake up in the morning and consume 10mg of Forskolin and 1 dose of artichoke on an empty stomach. Then grab your favorite highly caffeinated beverage (we are talking at least 80mg here), and drink it while eating some food.

If you take any supplements, take them in the evening (minerals, vitamins, etc.). Sleep aids only if necessary (I take melatonin). Don't take choline, -racetams, or adaptogen herbs. If you take prescription anti-depressants or anti-anxiety drugs, you should be very cautious. If you are taking a prescription drug that is too dangerous for you to discontinue, then I can't even remotely recommend taking this stack.

If you are enjoying the results after these 3 days, start tweaking the stack to it's efficiency by adjusting your doses. You can try pushing your artichoke dosage into 2 or 3 times a day (but I don't recommend redosing forskolin). Once you find your optimum dosing, you can try different herbal stimulants or amino acids, but always go easy at first. At this point, you can start reintroducing your other supplements one at a time, taking careful note of how they affect you. Don't assume that the previous dose you used will affect you in the same way.

Several supplements/herbs/minerals that are commonly taken by forum members here could potentiate or block the effects of this stack. It is very difficult to determine what the net result will be unless you take the time to eliminate the variables.

Edited by zrbarnes, 13 October 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

Zbarnes, what Forsklin and Artichoke products are you taking? Aberland Lindsay mentioned he changed his to one he got from Bodybuilding.com

[Mr. Pink]

that sounds good, except if you add artichoke and forskolin at the same time, you don't know which of the 2 is causing the irritibility. i added one at a time, and pretty sure, for me, with all the other stuff that i take, which i can't put on hold for experimenting, it's the artichoke. but obviously your method is great, except for the adding all 3 at once part, just not practical for me at this time. i am taking only 1 500mg pill of artichoke and 4mg of forskolin (from 20mg of 20% powder). i can't measure LTP (which i belive means long term memory, which is what i'm after), but i know that i can concentrate well with this and my other meds/supps. but i can also concentrate without the artichoke/forskolin. I can't concentrate with artichoke only. so i'm suspecting for me, it's the pde inhibitor (which also indirectly raises cAMP).

[gizmobrain]

that sounds good, except if you add artichoke and forskolin at the same time, you don't know which of the 2 is causing the irritibility. i added one at a time, and pretty sure, for me, with all the other stuff that i take, which i can't put on hold for experimenting, it's the artichoke. but obviously your method is great, except for the adding all 3 at once part, just not practical for me at this time. i am taking only 1 500mg pill of artichoke and 4mg of forskolin (from 20mg of 20% powder). i can't measure LTP (which i belive means long term memory, which is what i'm after), but i know that i can concentrate well with this and my other meds/supps. but i can also concentrate without the artichoke/forskolin. I can't concentrate with artichoke only. so i'm suspecting for me, it's the pde inhibitor (which also indirectly raises cAMP).

Adding Gingko to this stack could completely change it's dynamics. It is a GABA antagonist, and causes changes in dopamine, norepinephrine, and glutamate, and has been shown to interact with certain 5-ht receptors. It could easily be the reason why you are having issues. Its a powerful herb when combined with other supplements.

You still haven't said what other supplements you are taking, but I would at least try taking it out of your stack for a few days just to at least give you another point of data.

Edited by zrbarnes, 13 October 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Zbarnes, what Forsklin and Artichoke products are you taking? Aberland Lindsay mentioned he changed his to one he got from Bodybuilding.com

I'm taking US sourced 98% forskolin extract that I purchased mail-order from a lab called Phytopharmacon.

I'm still using Nature's Herbs Artichoke Extract; it is top notch. I need to find a high quality bulk extract though.

Edited by zrbarnes, 13 October 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[Mr. Pink]

that sounds good, except if you add artichoke and forskolin at the same time, you don't know which of the 2 is causing the irritibility. i added one at a time, and pretty sure, for me, with all the other stuff that i take, which i can't put on hold for experimenting, it's the artichoke. but obviously your method is great, except for the adding all 3 at once part, just not practical for me at this time. i am taking only 1 500mg pill of artichoke and 4mg of forskolin (from 20mg of 20% powder). i can't measure LTP (which i belive means long term memory, which is what i'm after), but i know that i can concentrate well with this and my other meds/supps. but i can also concentrate without the artichoke/forskolin. I can't concentrate with artichoke only. so i'm suspecting for me, it's the pde inhibitor (which also indirectly raises cAMP).

Adding Gingko to this stack could completely change it's dynamics. It is a GABA antagonist, and causes changes in dopamine, norepinephrine, and glutamate, and has been shown to interact with certain 5-ht receptors. It could easily be the reason why you are having issues. Its a powerful herb when combined with other supplements.

You still haven't said what other supplements you are taking, but I would at least try taking it out of your stack for a few days just to at least give you another point of data.

i'm taking quite a few supplements. i totally understand your point about the interactions. that's why i'm just sharing my experience, not trying to say my results should be generalized to this stack or to other people. i've been taking ginko long term - 7 years or so. when i add a new substance, i can tell how it is effecting me in terms of short term effects. i wish there was a way to measure long term memory though. for me, the irritibility started at the artichoke and decreased with the forskolin.

i didn't think it would be a problem to add this stack to ginkgo as i saw ginkgo listed by albert, while reading this entire thread, as one of the possible pro-dopamine substances that can be a part of this stack.

[gizmobrain]

i'm taking quite a few supplements. i totally understand your point about the interactions. that's why i'm just sharing my experience, not trying to say my results should be generalized to this stack or to other people. i've been taking ginko long term - 7 years or so. when i add a new substance, i can tell how it is effecting me in terms of short term effects. i wish there was a way to measure long term memory though. for me, the irritibility started at the artichoke and decreased with the forskolin.

i didn't think it would be a problem to add this stack to ginkgo as i saw ginkgo listed by albert, while reading this entire thread, as one of the possible pro-dopamine substances that can be a part of this stack.

Skipping a dose or 2 of Gingko is not going to hurt you . And yes, it could potentially be a beneficial adjunct to this stack. It could also be it's downfall. The only way to know is to re-introduce after establishing a working CILTEP stack.

Honestly, if you can cut out any adaptogen herbs you are taking for a day or two, and move any gaba/anti-anxiety/magnesium/racetams to after lunch, that should be enough to give you a clearer picture of it's effects.

I feel the effects in less than an hour. Like I just told Danny, even though LTP is thought to be part of the process of forming long term memories, that is not the only thing that LTP is responsible for. That's only an aspect of it. Not to mention that Forskolin + Artichoke have immediate effects on neurotransmitters that should be detectable in the short term.

Heck if you are really unwilling to skip any doses of your current regimen, you could take Forskolin + Artichoke + Caffeine upon waking; then, if you don't feel anything after a couple hours, take the rest of your supplements.

Edited by zrbarnes, 13 October 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Ames]

Anyone worried about this?

Bioflavonoids: Always Healthy?

http://classic.the-s...rticleNo/12993/

I thought the above linked to informational article was a good introduction to the below research (full texts available for free), albeit with some conjecture thrown in.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10758153

Dietary bioflavonoids induce cleavage in the MLL gene and may contribute to infant leukemia.
Strick R, Strissel PL, Borgers S, Smith SL, Rowley JD.
Source
University of Chicago, Department of Medicine, Section of Hematology/Oncology, Chicago, IL 60637, USA.
Abstract
Chromosomal translocations involving the MLL gene occur in about 80% of infant leukemia. In the search for possible agents inducing infant leukemia, we identified bioflavonoids, natural substances in food as well as in dietary supplements, that cause site-specific DNA cleavage in the MLL breakpoint cluster region (BCR) in vivo. The MLL BCR DNA cleavage was shown in primary progenitor hematopoietic cells from healthy newborns and adults as well as in cell lines; it colocalized with the MLL BCR cleavage site induced by chemotherapeutic agents, such as etoposide (VP16) and doxorubicin (Dox). Both in vivo and additional in vitro experiments demonstrated topoisomerase II (topo II) as the target of bioflavonoids similar to VP16 and Dox. Based on 20 bioflavonoids tested, we identified a common structure essential for topo II-induced DNA cleavage. Reversibility experiments demonstrated a religation of the bioflavonoid as well as the VP16-induced MLL cleavage site. Our observations support a two-stage model of cellular processing of topo II inhibitors: The first and reversible stage of topo II-induced DNA cleavage results in DNA repair, but also rarely in chromosome translocations; whereas the second, nonreversible stage leads to cell death because of an accumulation of DNA damage. These results suggest that maternal ingestion of bioflavonoids may induce MLL breaks and potentially translocations in utero leading to infant and early childhood leukemia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10861294

DNA structural properties of AF9 are similar to MLL and could act as recombination hot spots resulting in MLL/AF9 translocations and leukemogenesis.
Strissel PL, Strick R, Tomek RJ, Roe BA, Rowley JD, Zeleznik-Le NJ.
Source
University of Chicago Department of Medicine, Section of Hematology Oncology, Chicago, IL 60637-1470, USA. pstrisse@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu
Abstract
The human AF9 gene at 9p22 is one of the most common fusion partner genes with the MLL gene at 11q23, resulting in the t(9;11)(p22;q23). The MLL-AF9 fusion gene is associated with de novo acute myelo-genous leukemia (AML), rarely with acute lymphocytic leukemia (ALL) and with therapy related leukemia (t-AML). The AF9 gene is >100 kb and two patient breakpoint cluster regions (BCRs) have been identified; BCR1 is within intron 4, previously called site A, whereas BCR2 or site B spans introns 7 and 8. Patient breakpoint locations were determined previously by RT-PCR and by genomic DNA cloning. In this study, we defined the exon-intron boundaries and identified several different structural elements in AF9 including a co-localizing in vivo DNA topo II cleavage site and an in vitro DNase I hypersensitive (DNase 1 HS) site in intron 7 in BCR2. Reversibility experiments demonstrated a religation of the topo II cleavage sites. The location of the in vivo topo II cleavage site was confirmed in vitro using a topo II cleavage assay. In addition, two scaffold associated regions (SARs) are located centromeric to the topo II and DNase I HS cleavage sites and border both patient breakpoint regions: SAR1 is located in intron 4, whereas SAR2 encompasses parts of exons 5-7. This study demonstrates that the patient breakpoint regions of AF9 share the same structural elements as the MLL BCR. We describe a DNA breakage and repair model for non-homologous recombination between MLL and its partner genes, particularly AF9.

Edited by golgi1, 18 October 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[gizmobrain]

Anyone worried about this?

Bioflavonoids: Always Healthy?

I remember devinthayer was always wary of bioflavonoids because of their tendency to mess with DNA enzymes.

A good place to start on the research is the Join Me in Finding a COMT Inhibitor Which Doesn't Inhibit DNA Enzymes thread.

I posted this earlier in this thread:

I know Cichoric Acid is supposed to inhibit COMT, like quercetin. Does it inhibit PDE4? From the COMT inhibiting thread:

So far, I've got two great looking prospectives: rosmarinic acid and cichoric acid. Rosmarinic Acid is the best one so far, but unfortunately, it also raises GABA levels, so a need to take it with Ginkgo (high in Bilobalide) might arise if it's GABA-T inhibition is too strong. Cichoric acid seems better for cognition already low in anxiety and actually causes quite a cellular response, influencing an increase in acetylcholine receptor density. Unfortunately, it is not widely available in extract form apart from Echinacea, which fat people like me might want to veer away from the canabanoids.

I definitely find that rosmarinic acid spikes GABA to an uncomfortable level. This explains my previous posts where I would talk about the "swimmy" feeling.

I have a bottle of Echinacea + Goldenseal that I've been combining with this stack every now and again. They are whole herbs though, no mention of standardizing the extracts, so it's hard to tell how much active compound they contain. Interestingly, I bought this not for the Echinacea but for the Goldenseal, for its Prolyl endopeptidase (PREP) inhibiting quality. I've also tried Berberine for that as well. By themselves, I didn't notice much of a difference, but I should probably try them in combination with CILTEP at some point.

I continue to search for alternatives.

Edited by zrbarnes, 18 October 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[vali]

I tried this stack, and it didn't work out. It made my head really hot (increased blood-flow, I'd assume) and put me in a bit of a brain fog. Thoughts and concepts felt more difficult to grasp and understand. It also increased my need for sleep. I still have some forskolin left, so I might fiddle around with it some more later on, but I'm done with this for a while. Different brain chemistry, I guess. I'll also note that I'm not a big fan of caffeine, which Abelard Lindsey loves. It just makes me sweaty and irritable.

[norepinephrine]

I've been lurking the forums for a little bit and thought I'd share my experiences with CILTEP after reading this thread all the way through the other day. Not being a trained neuroscientist, I'll leave my experiences mainly to subjective and speculative aims.

In short, the main effect I've found from forskolin+artichoke extract has been stimulant potentiation. It was mentioned by someone else that they were able to cut down their Adderall dosage substantially after starting CILTEP, and I've found a similar case with my caffeine intake. Inasmuch, the effects from caffeine also become more pronounced and focused - i.e., more as if I were on a prescription ADHD drug. I definitely experienced what Abelard Lindsey described - a strengthened ability to tackle topics like my math and econ. studies while maintaining relative fascination with the information. Khan lectures become easier to watch back-to-back, and I can read without distraction for longer. Actually, akin to when I've tried Adderal before, I can study for an hour or two straight without looking up or checking the time, and as such, time goes by much faster but with increased productivity.

Secondly, from reading this thread, conducting research on cAMP, and my own experiences, a dopaminergic effect seems to be one of the main factors at play. My motivation, drive and focus are markedly increased, but with a fairly serious side effect. In the first week, sleep quality was visibly deteriorating each night as I couldn't unwind at the end of the night - and even if I could, I'd wake up more frequently during sleep, and only muster 6 hours of mediocre rest before being unable to fall back asleep upon waking.

By the end of the first week of CILTEP, on top of this, I noticed some bruxism - clenching my jaw and grinding my teeth involuntarily, to the point wherhe a co-worker noticed while we were out at the bar and asked if I was taking Adderall. I take a daily dose of 200mg magnesium (glycinate and lysinate, Albion) but apparently this wasn't enough. Thus, when the lack of sleep really started to become performance-inhibiting and the bruxism had increased to the point where the corners of tongue were starting to get swollen and wounded from teeth gnashing, I took a spread out dosage of 1000mg Mg., and have since been increasing my daily dosage to 600-800mg a day. The initial 1000mg reversed my problems pretty quickly, and the subsequent dosing has made the CILTEP effect more manageable - i.e., prior, I'd work on a math problem and skip ahead 3 steps in my head but still come out to the right answer. This was cool, but I'm not particularly confident in my abilities given I've only restarted taking math courses after a 5 year hiatus, so the hasty thought processing was a little unwanted. Now, I don't quite do that as much.

The third mechanism that CILTEP seems to act on, and has only been partially discussed in this thread, is boosting testosterone levels. I believe it was zrbarnes who noticed the beneficial physical effects of increased lean mass and performance - this sounds much in line with what the bodybuilding world uses forskolin for. I've noticed the same, and being a fairly serious athlete myself, welcomed the effects, but I think in terms of mental performance, the boost in T could also give explanation behind motivation. Of course, this may be a simplistic conclusion.

I should probably mention what I take, in addition to magnesium, to synergise. (All supplements were started prior to CILTEP and added one-by-one to observe effects.) A few 500mg ALCAR dosages throughout the day seem to add to the stimulative effect, as does 2-3 sublingual coenzymated B-complex pills (one of my favorite supps., especially for focus and wakefulness). I take creatine @ 5g a day both for the physical and mental effects, and it seems to increase my working memory slightly. I also take Jarrow Green Tea extract for the caffeine, L-theanine, EGCG and catechins, usually 2 first thing in the morning (~80mg caffeine) with an espresso, and then more as needed as the espresso wears off. In the early afternoon I usually take a brief powernap or meditate while the caffeine wears away, and don't dose past 2pm ever due to how it affects my sleep later. Finally, I take ginkgo/gotu kola in tincture form and have found it to be mainly synergistic with CILTEP, at least for me (and is also among my favorite nootropics - much more consistently predictable than piracetam, although a tolerance seems to build in about a week's time). At night, I take L-tryptophan @ 500mg to boost melatonin.

Someone mentioned above that if you take CILTEP, you should cut out everything else at first to gauge effects. I'd be curious to know who's tried it without any form of stimulant or dopamine-boosting agent, as it'd seem to be much less useful in my view without. Additionally, it seems somewhat irresponsible to recommend CILTEP without taking adequate magnesium, at least in my experience.

Edited by norepinephrine, 18 October 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[NDM]

So norepinephrine, you haven't noticed any decline in working memory capacity from CILTEP?

[Ames]

@norepinephrine

If your having premature waking issues/insomnia, try around 200-250mg of GABA to counteract the catecholamines. I find that it works perfectly, and a 500-750 mg pill can even be too strong (putting me back to sleep for too long - up to 6 hours in my experience, even after almost a full night of shallow sleep). But experiment with the dose as I'm sure it varies individually. Buy the powder, and take it only when you need/want to go back to sleep - otherwise you may get unwanted fog/drowsiness. It may also work for irritability, but I haven't personally used it for that. Although since I started using it, I haven't noticed the irritability side effect that was before plaguing me. It may work for buxism, but that hasn't been a symptom of mine - yet. I am desensitized to many effects of stimulants (a bad thing) due to long term inflammation in my brain and eyes, not stimulant use. My experience with GABA is counteracting the insomnia effect of Mucuna with 40% L-Dopa (very strong), but it theoretically should work the same for any similar unwanted CILTEP side effects. I haven't taken anything, including magnesium, that works as well to this end as does GABA - perhaps lithium, but it's side-effects on memory, after taking it for several months, are unnacceptable to me. I'm hoping that GABA doesn't render similar side-effects after a while, but I don't take it that often (only for transient insomnia) and haven't noticed any side effects as of yet. It is a good solution in my current experience.

general discussion:

Back to the Mucuna. I experimented with that in the past month, at found that even taking one 450 mg dose had long lasting effects, both good and not so good. The subtle but present muscular side effects, at that concentration and dose, aren't acceptable. However, the good points are that it did very well to attenuate my intraocular eye pressure symptoms and make my eyes more resistant to stress, and the sexual enhancement effects were welcome. The residual effects don't seem to dissipate until one does something to deplete dopamine stores. A week later I can still feel the results from as little as one dose. Here's the point: the first time I took the CILTEP stack, I became so drowsy that I wasn't very functional. Not having Galantamine on-hand, I put CILTEP on the shelf for the next few weeks while I tried Mucuna out. Today, I came back to CILTEP(w caffeine and Tyrosine) upon awakening, hopeful for a change in effect after taking Mucuna, to attempt to counter an IOP induced migraine. I took it using 1/2 of a 100mg 10% capsule of Forskolin (LifeExtension brand). The first time I took an entire 100mg 10% capsule. It worked, and I could actually feel the physical sensation of my prefrontal cortex becoming more activated. The eye pressure symptoms dissipated, and have stayed away all day even while engaged in my trigger activity - spending time exposing myself to the fluorescent backlighting of a computer monitor (overhead fluorescent lighting has an equal effect, as does LED lighting).

I'm going to buy non-concentrated Mucuna (L-Dopa may not be it's primary method of beneficial action) and experiment with very spread out, very small doses, and vary that with Tyrosine dosing, to see which has a better effect with CILTEP. If I get any negative side effects with the Mucuna, at all, I'm immediately stopping it. However, I want to gauge whether it is key for me in making this work, given my issues, or whether I can get by with Tyrosine, which I believe makes me crash more. No crash with Mucuna, at least not with the concentrate (which I will no longer take). I'm very hopeful about Forskolin's effects on IOP, and I'm wondering if CILTEP stack enhances those effects or if I could attain them without CILTEP. I'm guessing the answer is 'yes' to both questions, but I probably wouldn't try Forskolin on its own unless CILTEP stops working. I'm liking it so far.

I'll report back here with the results over the next few weeks.

Edited by golgi1, 18 October 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[gizmobrain]

The best way to sleep is to avoid bright lights, TV's, computers, and cellphones for at least an hour before bed.

Since I'm an idiot and don't follow this advice, I usually take 2 from the following list, depending how I feel:

Melatonin (1-5mg)
Magnesium L-Threonate (2g)
Inositol (1g or higher)
L-Theanine (100-200mg)
Chamomile (tea)
95% Baicalin (Skullcap Extract) (500mg)
Bacopa (250mg)

I've also learned that you should never redose forskolin within the same day, and avoid choline sources in the evening.

I actually find that I have less troubles sleeping on the CILTEP stack (as long as I stick to my optimum dosing), then I did before. For my entire life, I would be sleepy all day until late evening, then I would want to stay up late since I was so awake. Now, I'm awake and active during the day, and ready for bed at the appropriate time.

[alecnevsky]

I'd be curious to know who's tried it without any form of stimulant or dopamine-boosting agent, as it'd seem to be much less useful in my view without.

I just got my noops couple of days ago. I am pretty much a clean slate insofar as nootropics go (will be making a thread later to detail the individual effects.) So today, I took 500mg Artichoke + 10mg (10% 100mg) Forksolin (no Ginko, no Tyrosine no Caffeine at all) on top of a Multivitamin, 2000mgs of Fish Oil, 5000UI D vitamin, 3gs Creatine Ethyl Ester 10 minutes after generic burger/fries lunch. Generally, I haven't felt at all inspired or more cognitively agile. In fact, the feeling is that of yawning/drowsiness (3 hrs after dosing.)
Couple things I should probably note, however, is that I completely exhausted myself physically yesterday via intense fast-twitch cardio exercise, took an ice bath + 3gs of Creatine Ethyl Ester at night (for the first time ever, since I just received the supps.) And, of course, that I took this after a big burger fries lunch, not on empty stomach. So, either I should be feeling a lot worse today and "CILTEP minus stimulant," is making it all feel bearable or it's just, so far, ineffective. Again, I avoided taking tyrosine, caffeine and ginkgo to be more discriminating in effects of each. I am going to continue with the Artichoke+Forskolin dosing by adding caffeine, ginkgo, l-tyrosine individually in that order to identify any/all synergetic effects.

The dilemma is that I do not have time for wash out periods since I have approaching deadlines and I have many more noops to go through (GPC+Tau+DHA+Alcar and Pram+GPC+Sulbuitamine/Ani+GPC+Sulbuitamine, then start adding each stack on top of others etc.)So my question is how can I optimize the trials without confusing the effects? Can I fit another 500mg Artichoke +10mg Forskolin experiment later on in the same day (today for instance) but try it with caffeine/ginkgo/l-tyrosine individually. How many hours should I allocate for these trials?

Edited by alecnevsky, 18 October 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Can I fit another 500mg Artichoke +10mg Forskolin experiment later on in the same day (today for instance) but try it with caffeine/ginkgo/l-tyrosine individually. How many hours should I allocate for these trials?

Sorry to skip over the bulk of your post (I've only got a minute), but I wouldn't recommend redosing the forskolin. You might find yourself awake all night.

Since you probably know what caffeine feels like already, just put some caffeine in your system and see if the effects are stronger than usual.

[alecnevsky]

Can I fit another 500mg Artichoke +10mg Forskolin experiment later on in the same day (today for instance) but try it with caffeine/ginkgo/l-tyrosine individually. How many hours should I allocate for these trials?

Sorry to skip over the bulk of your post (I've only got a minute), but I wouldn't recommend redosing the forskolin. You might find yourself awake all night.

Since you probably know what caffeine feels like already, just put some caffeine in your system and see if the effects are stronger than usual.

Thank you. Indeed, the effects are much more pronounced with caffeine even after 5 hrs of taking CILTEP! (What's the half-life of 500mg artichoke + 10mgforskolin?) I just had a cup of [strong] coffee after dinner and feel very much focused and motivated. While I usually respond positively to caffeine, this is to a much greater degree of focus, rather than generic caffeine "up." I can definitely note the sensations of higher blood flow in the brain and it's not at all a pressured/over-clocked feeling. I will try this tomorrow with Gingko and then Tyrosine the next day. I welcome any/all suggestions.

[norepinephrine]

So norepinephrine, you haven't noticed any decline in working memory capacity from CILTEP?

I think to the extent that overstimulation occurs from caffeine, yes. I can get so focused in on reading something that I'm not totally recalling what I read a few paragraphs ago, although I'm like that to a lesser extent just reading day to day if it's something overly academic and I'm not taking notes/highlighting/writing in the margins. (Reading the newspaper is never a problem.) It's kind of tough to say though given there's a lot of different variables at play. For instance, I very occasionally smoke cannabis (~2-3 times a month), which typically results in reduced working memory for at least a few days after. What nootropics specifically target working memory besides creatine? Choline maybe?

@golgi1, I've heard reports that GABA may not be absorbed so well in supplemental form. Thoughts? If the powders cheap, I can probably see for myself. Something to dose sublingually upon waking in the middle of the night would be great, although if I can motivate myself to walk across the bedroom at 3am, I grab a tryptophan and it usually at least makes the next few hours of sleep before I have to actually awake be more restful vs. without.

@zrbarnes, I've also found retaking forksolin/artichoke a second time of the day to be a strict no-no. The times that I did, I would crash hard around 6-7pm, nap in a coma-like state for the next ~4-5 hours and then reawaken and be up till 3am before getting back to bed. In other words - unwanted, unpredictable biphasic sleeping.

Edited by norepinephrine, 19 October 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[dear mrclock]

i saw artichoke mentioned few times on this thread and i have missed its importance through the 30 pages on. so what is artichoke to do with this thread, something i am missing ??

[hephaestus]

I've found sublingual lithium to work very well for falling asleep if I am overstimulated from too much caffeine/ciltep. I generally take 1mg elemental lithium as lithium orotate and can fall asleep within 20-30 minutes. More than 1-2mg seems to leave me a little foggy the next day, but I guess some people take 5mg/day as a supplement so ymmv.

Edited by hephaestus, 19 October 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[norepinephrine]

i saw artichoke mentioned few times on this thread and i have missed its importance through the 30 pages on. so what is artichoke to do with this thread, something i am missing ??

PDE4 inhibition (and 1-5 to some extent too).

So PDE4 inhibition + cAMP activation = chemical LTP, I believe is the hypothesis.

[dear mrclock]

so eating artichokes is the idea or what ?

[alecnevsky]

UPDATE: Little to no effects of CILTEP + ginkgo and caffeine on 2nd day of trials (still drowsiness and brain fog.) I think either my bar is set way too high via adderall or I am still completely beat after practice(2 days ago.) One thing I did experience is a clenched jaw which is not very useful for getting things done. Took this with my multi, D, omega 3s, 3gs of creatine, and some light, buttery food (the reason for that is essentially: if this doesn't work on top of my regular routine, it's useless.) Hoping to try this with tyrosine tomorrow. BTW, is LTP beneficial by itself in the long term? Suppose I do not feel any effects of the CILTEP stack at all, should still take it for dendrite growth/potentiation etc? Or, is it the case that because I am not feeling it, it is not affecting me or my brain in a favorable way? Thanks.

so eating artichokes is the idea or what ?

Yes, eat as many full artichokes as you can. Have you tried artichoke pizza?

Edited by alecnevsky, 19 October 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[gizmobrain]

UPDATE: Little to no effects of CILTEP + ginkgo and caffeine on 2nd day of trials (still drowsiness and brain fog.) I think either my bar is set way too high via adderall or I am still completely beat after practice(2 days ago.) One thing I did experience is a clenched jaw which is not very useful for getting things done. Took this with my multi, D, omega 3s, 3gs of creatine, and some light, buttery food (the reason for that is essentially: if this doesn't work on top of my regular routine, it's useless.) Hoping to try this with tyrosine tomorrow. BTW, is LTP beneficial by itself in the long term? Suppose I do not feel any effects of the CILTEP stack at all, should still take it for dendrite growth/potentiation etc? Or, is it the case that because I am not feeling it, it is not affecting me or my brain in a favorable way? Thanks.

I'd recommend taking the Forskolin + Artichoke 30 minutes before food and other supps, just in case it is an absorption issue. What is your forskolin, artichoke, and caffeine source, btw?

For me, it potentiates caffeine, but I have a hard time consistently inducing motivation without a harder stimulant.

Edited by zrbarnes, 19 October 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[alecnevsky]

What is your forskolin, artichoke, and caffeine source, btw?

Jarrow 500mg Artichoke
Green Web 100mg Forskolin
Spring Valley Ginkgo
Powdered l-tyrosine from Smart Powders

I get caffeine from strong blends of tea and coffee. Today however I only had 1 cup of coffee (usually 2 consecutively) +120mg Ginkgo so that tells me, if that cup was not strong enough of a stimulant, then neither was Ginkgo.

Edited by alecnevsky, 19 October 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Before taking CILTEP, caffeine really seemed to have no effect on wakefulness. I could drink 6 shots of espresso and comfortably fall asleep. Now, I feel awake all day long with 150-200mg of caffeine from various sources. However, I have a hard time consistently inducing motivation without a harder stimulant. (5mg of adderall or d-amp worked wonders).

Clenched jaw points to magnesium deficiency (not uncommon; a lot of people don't get enough of it). I'm surprised you have that from just the Forskolin + Artichoke. I get it from Adderall, DS Craze and Stacker 2. I recommend adding a good magnesium supp (staying away from magnesium oxide) at night, especially if Forskolin + Artichoke alone was able to get you to start clenching.

Gingko is a complex herb. While it could be pro-dopamine, it isn't necessarily a stimulant. It depends on the herb itself too, since it has multiple constituents that have different effects in the body.

This is a good write-up from devinthayer:

Ginkgo Biloba is an ancient Chinese medicine used for a number of disorders, but the most interesting inclusion of this herb was made as the neutral herb in one of the most popular Chinese brain medicines for mental decline and mental retardation. Ginkgo + Ginseng + Gotu Kola was the remedy. Ginseng would be the "warm" herb, meaning it was stimulating. Gotu Kola would be the "cold" herb, meaning it was sedating. Ginkgo would be the neutral herb, which ties the two together.

What makes this herb interesting to me is that I have taken it thinking it would help with ADHD, but all I noticed was flush face and an ability to bleed for 15 minutes. It is great for preventing stroke and preventing stress from stroke due to its blood vessel enhancing, platelet de-aggregating, plaque removal, stress-reducing properties. It's a true circulation tonic, if there ever was one. This may attribute to some increased oxygen in the brain, but it is not, in my opinion it's primary mechanism of action.

Ginkgo Biloba is a...

• Circulation Tonic.
  
  • Reduces Platelet Aggregation.
  • Reduces Plaque in Arteries.
  • Ups blood vessel elasticity and strength.
  • Increases penile blood flow.
  • ACE inhibitor (not AChE).
• GABA Receptor Antagonist.
  
  • Bilobalide blocks the rho(1) binding site.
  • Potent competitive antagonist comparable to Pictrotoxin and Bicuculline.
• Glycine Antagonist and Regulator.
  
  • Ginkgolide B blocks the main glycine binding site.
  • Bilobalide reduces glycine release.
• Norepinephrine Re-Uptake Inhibitor. (100mg/kg) Inhibits NET, not MAO or DAT.
• 5-HT3 Antagonist. Ginkgolide B & Bilobalide block the 5-HT3(A) receptor.
• Neuroprotector. Bilobalide seems to be at the root of a half a dozen effects.
• Inducer of CYP3A. Bilobalide significantly induces the p450 enzyme CYP3A.
• Regulator of Glutamate. Reduces glutamate release after stroke.

Ginkgo is nootropic, but it isn't a nootropic by itself. It's a nootropic enhancer. It is a neutral nootropic. It's supposed to be used in synergy, to counteract ill effects from other herbs, drugs, and supplements. That's why people have become so disappointed with it as a nootropic. It isn't warm or cold, it is luke warm.

Let me explain. Gotu Kola is an herb that raises GABA levels, so to counteract this, Ginkgo blocks GABA receptors from getting too overactive and sedating you, keeping a healthy balance. Ashwagandha (or another Ginseng) raises monoamine levels, and Ginkgo blocks 5-HT3, which is an excitatory serotonin receptor, so it prevents some serotonin syndrome-like effects (nausea, anxiety, twitches, etc.) from the Ginseng.

Don't dis the Ginkgo without knowing how to stack it.

I'm not saying that Ginkgo is a no-go with CILTEP, just that the result of adding it has a lot of variables.

Edited by zrbarnes, 19 October 2012 - 10:44 PM.