2626 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

Nope I wasn't, I was just trying to state that this may not be the only thing that works for him. It's the 2nd day of CELTIP and I'm not sure if it's having an effect on me, but like you said we are all wired differently. I just don't want him to end his search for the optimal stack here.

I agree. I continue to research other possibilities as well. I think most folks would see some pretty big long-term benefits from Uridine+Omega3+MethylFolate.

As for you, I didn't see a mention of a stimulant component in your stack? Try drinking something like a Monster Rehab. Forskolin + Artichoke causes a shift in my brain on its own, but I don't actually start seeing enhanced focus and motivation until I add a stimulant. Caffeine is also good for dealing with the increased Adenosine production induced by the Forskolin (or so says my theory that I posted a couple pages back).

Edited by zrbarnes, 04 November 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[stablemind]

Nope I wasn't, I was just trying to state that this may not be the only thing that works for him. It's the 2nd day of CELTIP and I'm not sure if it's having an effect on me, but like you said we are all wired differently. I just don't want him to end his search for the optimal stack here.

I agree. I continue to research other possibilities as well. I think most folks would see some pretty big long-term benefits from Uridine+Omega3+MethylFolate.

As for you, I didn't see a mention of a stimulant component in your stack? Try drinking something like a Monster Rehab. Forskolin + Artichoke causes a shift in my brain on its own, but I don't actually start seeing enhanced focus and motivation until I add a stimulant. Caffeine is also good for dealing with the increased Adenosine production induced by the Forskolin (or so says my theory that I posted a couple pages back).

I tried Green Tea but that may be enough, or maybe it takes longer before the cAMP raises? Who knows, I'll wait a few more days. Right now I'm feeling the caffeine but not much else.

[gizmobrain]

I tried Green Tea but that may be enough, or maybe it takes longer before the cAMP raises? Who knows, I'll wait a few more days. Right now I'm feeling the caffeine but not much else.

With 10mg of Forskolin + 500mg of Artichoke alone on an empty stomach, I can feel the shift in my brain about 45 minutes after ingesting. It also coincides with an unmistakeable increase in tinnitus.

A note about tinnitus real quick: nearly everyone has tinnitus at varying levels. I have a very mild case, and it gets a little louder when taking forskolin. However, I just don't think about it, and it doesn't affect me. Tinnitus seems to be one of those things that the more you pay attention to it, the more sensitive to it you become.

[stablemind]

I tried Green Tea but that may be enough, or maybe it takes longer before the cAMP raises? Who knows, I'll wait a few more days. Right now I'm feeling the caffeine but not much else.

With 10mg of Forskolin + 500mg of Artichoke alone on an empty stomach, I can feel the shift in my brain about 45 minutes after ingesting. It also coincides with an unmistakeable increase in tinnitus.

A note about tinnitus real quick: nearly everyone has tinnitus at varying levels. I have a very mild case, and it gets a little louder when taking forskolin. However, I just don't think about it, and it doesn't affect me. Tinnitus seems to be one of those things that the more you pay attention to it, the more sensitive to it you become.

+1 regarding tinnitus. I seemed to have more tinnitus when I had anxiety and constantly worried about it.

I failed to mention earlier I take low dose (100 mg) seroquel xr and (600 mg) lithium ER every night, which may be affecting the stack's efficacy. Seroquel has indirect effects on dopamine so I wouldn't be surprised. The dose is very low though so I'm not sure if this concern is warranted.

[gizmobrain]

Wikipedia says Seroquel's pharmacology is:

Quetiapine has the following pharmacological actions:

• D1 (IC50 = 1268nM), D2 (IC50 = 329nM), D3, and D4 receptor antagonist
• 5-HT1A (IC50 = 717nM), 5-HT2A (IC50 = 148nM), 5-HT2C, and 5-HT7 receptor antagonist
• alpha1-adrenergic (IC50 = 94nM) and alpha2-adrenergic receptor (IC50 = 271nM) antagonist
• H1 receptor (IC50 = 30nM) antagonist
• mACh receptor (IC50 = >5000nM) antagonist

This means Quetiapine is a dopamine, serotonin, and adrenergic antagonist, and a potent antihistamine with clinically negligible anticholinergic properties. Quetiapine binds strongly to serotonin receptors. Serial PET scans evaluating the D2 receptor occupancy of quetiapine have demonstrated that quetiapine very rapidly disassociates from the D2 receptor. Theoretically, this allows for normal physiological surges of dopamine to elicit normal effects in areas such as the nigrostriatal and tuberoinfundibular pathways, thus minimizing the risk of side-effects such as pseudo-parkinsonism as well as elevations in prolactin. Some of the antagonized receptors (serotonin, norepinephrine) are actually autoreceptors whose blockade tends to increase the release of neurotransmitters.

Norquetiapine is the active metabolite of quetiapine. It has most of the effects of quetiapine with similar potencies, and is also a potent norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and muscarinic antagonist. Note that the data below is from another source (the official prescribing info for Seroquel), and the measure is different from the above (Ki vs. IC50). There are still order-of-magnitude discrepancies for D1, alpha1, H1 and M1.

→ source (external link)

That's some pretty widespread pharmacology to be messing with stacking stuff on top of. You really don't know how that's going to affect you (and may even be dangerous, depending on why you take seroquel in the first place). Also, that much lithium will likely have blunting effects on anything you try to add.

Most of the pharmacology behind CILTEP would actively seek to undo what seroquel does, so if that's what you are after, a lower dose may work better than adding CILTEP on top.

Edited by zrbarnes, 04 November 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[fenra]

Took ciltep again yesterday without coffee, nothing; added coffee after an hour and nothing. Added more forskolin and some ginko biloba and I felt funny for the rest of the evening.

Just took it today with coffee, feeling as if there was some piracetam in it, but still nothing like day one.

Do you guys mean 500mg of extract or just 500mg of artichoke? My pills are 375mg of artichoke for 100mg of extract.

[gizmobrain]

Took ciltep again yesterday without coffee, nothing; added coffee after an hour and nothing. Added more forskolin and some ginko biloba and I felt funny for the rest of the evening.

Just took it today with coffee, feeling as if there was some piracetam in it, but still nothing like day one.

Do you guys mean 500mg of extract or just 500mg of artichoke? My pills are 375mg of artichoke for 100mg of extract.

Yeah, that's the same type of artichoke I take. I usually take one early in the day with forskolin, and one later in the day without.

Folks who are used to consuming 3 or more cups of coffee a day, or soda and energy drinks, are likely in need of a caffeine washout period before starting CILTEP if they don't want to increase their stimulant intake. Otherwise, you probably won't "feel" much if you've already built a tolerance to the stimulant you are taking.

Other suggestions include: uridine during the day and magnesium at night. Both of these can help undo some of the stimulant tolerance.

Edited by zrbarnes, 04 November 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[noema]

Woke up, had a coffee with 2tbs grass fed butter, 1tbsp MCT oil. Then an hour later:

5mg forskolin
300mg artichoke extract
1g L-Phenylalinine

Will report back tonight about results, excited!

[stablemind]

Wikipedia says Seroquel's pharmacology is:

Quetiapine has the following pharmacological actions:

• D1 (IC50 = 1268nM), D2 (IC50 = 329nM), D3, and D4 receptor antagonist
• 5-HT1A (IC50 = 717nM), 5-HT2A (IC50 = 148nM), 5-HT2C, and 5-HT7 receptor antagonist
• alpha1-adrenergic (IC50 = 94nM) and alpha2-adrenergic receptor (IC50 = 271nM) antagonist
• H1 receptor (IC50 = 30nM) antagonist
• mACh receptor (IC50 = >5000nM) antagonist

This means Quetiapine is a dopamine, serotonin, and adrenergic antagonist, and a potent antihistamine with clinically negligible anticholinergic properties. Quetiapine binds strongly to serotonin receptors. Serial PET scans evaluating the D2 receptor occupancy of quetiapine have demonstrated that quetiapine very rapidly disassociates from the D2 receptor. Theoretically, this allows for normal physiological surges of dopamine to elicit normal effects in areas such as the nigrostriatal and tuberoinfundibular pathways, thus minimizing the risk of side-effects such as pseudo-parkinsonism as well as elevations in prolactin. Some of the antagonized receptors (serotonin, norepinephrine) are actually autoreceptors whose blockade tends to increase the release of neurotransmitters.

Norquetiapine is the active metabolite of quetiapine. It has most of the effects of quetiapine with similar potencies, and is also a potent norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and muscarinic antagonist. Note that the data below is from another source (the official prescribing info for Seroquel), and the measure is different from the above (Ki vs. IC50). There are still order-of-magnitude discrepancies for D1, alpha1, H1 and M1.

→ source (external link)

That's some pretty widespread pharmacology to be messing with stacking stuff on top of. You really don't know how that's going to affect you (and may even be dangerous, depending on why you take seroquel in the first place). Also, that much lithium will likely have blunting effects on anything you try to add.

Most of the pharmacology behind CILTEP would actively seek to undo what seroquel does, so if that's what you are after, a lower dose may work better than adding CILTEP on top.

You are probably right. I'm going to attempt to lower the dose and re-trial CELTIP. I just took Phenylalanine just to see if it was because the Green tea wasn't strong enough, if this still doesn't work I'll just retry it later.

[fenra]

Yeah, that's the same type of artichoke I take. I usually take one early in the day with forskolin, and one later in the day without.

Folks who are used to consuming 3 or more cups of coffee a day, or soda and energy drinks, are likely in need of a caffeine washout period before starting CILTEP if they don't want to increase their stimulant intake. Otherwise, you probably won't "feel" much if you've already built a tolerance to the stimulant you are taking.

Other suggestions include: uridine during the day and magnesium at night. Both of these can help undo some of the stimulant tolerance.

I do get ringing in the ears some half hour after I take it, so it has to be doing something... might be the coffee though.

[Erstwhile]

I tried Green Tea but that may be enough, or maybe it takes longer before the cAMP raises? Who knows, I'll wait a few more days. Right now I'm feeling the caffeine but not much else.

With 10mg of Forskolin + 500mg of Artichoke alone on an empty stomach, I can feel the shift in my brain about 45 minutes after ingesting. It also coincides with an unmistakeable increase in tinnitus.

A note about tinnitus real quick: nearly everyone has tinnitus at varying levels. I have a very mild case, and it gets a little louder when taking forskolin. However, I just don't think about it, and it doesn't affect me. Tinnitus seems to be one of those things that the more you pay attention to it, the more sensitive to it you become.

Oh boy, I wish I hadn't read that bit about everyone having tinnitus. After reading it, I immediately became conscious of my own tinnitus and now I can't seem to stop noticing it.

Only (half) joking; I'm sure I'll find something more entertaining to fixate on soon enough..

[timtam777]

I haven't noticed any tinnitus whatsoever so far. I'm really loving music on this stack. I'm really feeling the emotions in the music. This stack has really hit the spot - except for the libido. It's done nothing for that. Although it hasn't completely killed it like aniracetam, piracetam and noopept...

Edited by timtam777, 05 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Heh]

• Since I take resveratrol, do I actually need Artichoke Extract to experience the benefits of the CILTEP stack?
• Is TMG (and Centrophenoxine) good enough as a dopamine booster in the CILTEP stack, or do I still have to take L-Tyrosine?

[gizmobrain]

• Since I take resveratrol, do I actually need Artichoke Extract to experience the benefits of the CILTEP stack?
• Is TMG (and Centrophenoxine) good enough as a dopamine booster in the CILTEP stack, or do I still have to take L-Tyrosine?

I've never been able to consistently take high enough doses of Resveratrol to enable PDE4 inhibition without having side effects. Also, undoubtedly some of the effects you see reported in this thread are not caused by the PDE4 inhibition from the luteolin in Artichoke, but from other actions by other compounds found within Artichoke.

TMG has no direct effect on boosting dopamine. It can be a methyl donor to the production of dopamine, but this will only boost dopamine if you are undermethylated, but it will not go beyond that and cause an increase in dopamine synthesis.

Centrophenoxine... well I'm not sure. Some people find it mentally stimulating, but I don't know how direct it's influence on dopamine synthesis.

Bottom line, no one in this thread has reported any information concerning the stack you have proposed, so you would have to try it yourself.

Edited by zrbarnes, 05 November 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Heh]

• Since I take resveratrol, do I actually need Artichoke Extract to experience the benefits of the CILTEP stack?
• Is TMG (and Centrophenoxine) good enough as a dopamine booster in the CILTEP stack, or do I still have to take L-Tyrosine?

I've never been able to consistently take high enough doses of Resveratrol to enable PDE4 inhibition without having side effects. Also, undoubtedly some of the effects you see reported in this thread are not caused by the PDE4 inhibition from the luteolin in Artichoke, but from other actions by other compounds found within Artichoke.

TMG has no direct effect on boosting dopamine. It can be a methyl donor to the production of dopamine, but this will only boost dopamine if you are undermethylated, but it will not go beyond that and cause an increase in dopamine synthesis.

Centrophenoxine... well I'm not sure. Some people find it mentally stimulating, but I don't know how direct it's influence on dopamine synthesis.

Bottom line, no one in this thread has reported any information concerning the stack you have proposed, so you would have to try it yourself.

What was the dosage of resveratrol at which you experienced the CILTEP effects, but with side effects?

I'm trying to avoid caffeine, and buying more stuff, so I'm wondering.. would the 100mg of L-Glutamic Acid I take provide the dopamine boosting effects?

If not, then I suppose I could just buy some L-Phenylalanine, which would make my stack:

500mg (50%, so 250mg) Resveratrol
500mg (5%, so 25mg) Artichoke Extract
130mg (20%, so 26mg) Forskolin
1g L-Phenylalanine

Everything alright with this? Would I still need caffeine (I'm assuming green tea)?

Edited by Joel, 05 November 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Mr. Pink]

• Since I take resveratrol, do I actually need Artichoke Extract to experience the benefits of the CILTEP stack?
• Is TMG (and Centrophenoxine) good enough as a dopamine booster in the CILTEP stack, or do I still have to take L-Tyrosine?

I've never been able to consistently take high enough doses of Resveratrol to enable PDE4 inhibition without having side effects. Also, undoubtedly some of the effects you see reported in this thread are not caused by the PDE4 inhibition from the luteolin in Artichoke, but from other actions by other compounds found within Artichoke.

TMG has no direct effect on boosting dopamine. It can be a methyl donor to the production of dopamine, but this will only boost dopamine if you are undermethylated, but it will not go beyond that and cause an increase in dopamine synthesis.

Centrophenoxine... well I'm not sure. Some people find it mentally stimulating, but I don't know how direct it's influence on dopamine synthesis.

Bottom line, no one in this thread has reported any information concerning the stack you have proposed, so you would have to try it yourself.

What was the dosage of resveratrol at which you experienced the CILTEP effects, but with side effects?

I'm trying to avoid caffeine, and buying more stuff, so I'm wondering.. would the 100mg of L-Glutamic Acid I take provide the dopamine boosting effects?

If not, then I suppose I could just buy some L-Phenylalanine, which would make my stack:

500mg (50%, so 250mg) Resveratrol
500mg (5%, so 25mg) Artichoke Extract
130mg (20%, so 26mg) Forskolin
1g L-Phenylalanine

Everything alright with this? Would I still need caffeine (I'm assuming green tea)?

seems like a lot of forskolin. i feel the effects with 4mg (20mg @ 20%). keep in mind you can up the artichoke to 1g. i don't know if caffeine is necessary, but it sure seems to help.

[timtam777]

I definitely need to revise my stack. I'm taking 2 caps of forskolin which has 25mg each in it 50mg in total. Yikes! I'll drop it to one cap.
For the artichoke, I'm taking two caps which ends up being 200mg.
l-Phenylalanine is one cap @ 500mg per cap.

[Pirate]

Is the stimulant meant to be taken everyday or once a week?

I haven't started yet, waiting for my phenylalanine to arrive. Then I'll be trying/switching that with tyrosine, to see which works better for me.

Zrbarnes, what is the "next best" stim u have found with ciltep, after your 5mg adderall?

[gizmobrain]

Is the stimulant meant to be taken everyday or once a week?

I haven't started yet, waiting for my phenylalanine to arrive. Then I'll be trying/switching that with tyrosine, to see which works better for me.

Zrbarnes, what is the "next best" stim u have found with ciltep, after your 5mg adderall?

Probably 1/3 of a Stacker 2 capsule, though I always used them when I was going to be doing a lot of physical activity. Didn't ever try it with any sit-down activities.

Some other notes:

I had better results with DMAA by itself then with the CILTEP stack.

DS Craze worked but would leave me feeling pretty crappy after a few hours, unless I took lots of GABA increasers, which was hard to balance and not suitable for everyday use.

I had decent results with a homemade Catuaba/ethanol extract, but never pursued it much. I didn't get much of anything out of just the raw herb itself. Same thing with Koala nut powder, chocamine, and synepherine.

Lots of caffeine helps, but only so far, and there is always the issue of tolerance.

I didn't really give Ephedrine a fair trial, but I did give it a shot a couple times and wasn't incredibly impressed.

Ritalin has never worked well for me, turning me into a space cadet. It was the same way on CILTEP.

I didn't have any modafinil to try, but I did have a couple tablets of Nuvigil. Before CILTEP, it never seemed to work. After taking CILTEP a while, it did. I assumed this had to do with the same reason why Galatamine seems so much more powerful after taking CILTEP for a while. So it worked for sleepiness and concentration, but didn't seem to boost motivation and generally left me with a pretty emotionless mood.

I never exceeded 10mg of Selegiline a day, so I don't know about higher doses. It did seem to help with concentration and mood, but still not much with motivation.

Pure Yohimbine HCL doesn't seem to be potentiated by CILTEP, but I didn't investigate this too much. On the other hand, stay far away from yohimbe bark extracts. I had a 2 very bad experiences with those (while not on CILTEP).

I think that the best combination I ever had with the least side effects was the low dose extended release d-amphetamine. I would be on that right now, but for some reason my current doctor thinks that Adderall (which is 75% d-amphetamine) is somehow safer/non-addictive than pure d-amphetamine. 5mg a day x 30 days = 150mg... I know people who almost take that much in one day. Not to mention the fact that the l-amphetamine in Adderall jacks up my blood pressure and makes my body tense. I could ask for 40mg a day of Adderall and he would give it to me with no issue, but ask for 5mg of d-amphetamine and suddenly I might be a junkie. Oh boy...

Interestingly, before taking CILTEP, Adderall always worked better for me than d-amphetamine. Now, it's the other way around. This seems to be the case with all the stimulants that increase norepinephrine.

Edited by zrbarnes, 07 November 2012 - 10:03 PM.

[Pirate]

Thanks ZR,

What is a Stacker 2 capsule? I presume a brand name, but a brand name of what?

So, after dex and stacker 2 - it's galatamine?

How did you go on phenylalanine? And, did you ever try tyrosine? (With or without ciltep)

[gizmobrain]

I can't say that I really recommend Stacker2 since it is more targeted towards weight loss, but I had some in the medicine cabinet so I used it.

Kola Nut - The usual source of caffeine in stack formulas.

Yerba Mate - Rumored to help in weight loss, no quality evidence.

Cassia Mimosoides - As a lipase inhibitor it theoretically prevents the body from absorbing and storing fat.

White Willow Bark - The usual source of aspirin in stack formulas.

Caffeine Anhydrous - Mild thermogenic benefit and energy booster.

Green Tea - Proven fat burning and thermogenic benefits in sufficient quantities.

Guggulsterones - Stimulates thyroid and thereby may increase metabolism.

Gymnema - Historically used to treat diabetes. May inhibit taste for sweets.

→ source (external link)

I'm sure you could build a cheaper and better stack using quality ingredients. I don't really like using Yerba Mate because it has some studies showing that it might increase cancer risk. Since Cassia Mimosoides, Guggulsterones, and Gymnema are in there to help burn fat, I have no idea if they do anything towards motivation/focus.

That leaves caffeine, kola nut, green tea, and aspirin as the main ingredients that probably cause the increased motivation/focus. For the DIY'ers, throw some guarana and catuaba in there, and you have a nice little herbal stimulant blend.

Since I have had lack of motivation my whole life, I seem to have some neurochemistry that is pretty stingy with dopamine release. All the precursors in the world don't seem to do anything. I have tried DL-phenylalanine, L-phenylalanine, and L-Tyrosine up to 3g at a time with no noticeable results. That's not to say that they don't work for other people though. I just probably get enough of them from the food. I have not tried these stacked on top of stimulants.

After a week of CILTEP, taking an 8mg dose of Galantamine makes my brain feel like it's unstoppable for 8-10 hours. But this only works once or twice a week. Daily usage probably won't see the same results. It's not a stimulant in the same sense as others. It makes your nACh receptors more sensitive, which has downstream effects on other systems.

Edited by zrbarnes, 07 November 2012 - 11:18 PM.

[timtam777]

Another update: One week in and I think I have hit a wall. I've not had the best quality sleep since using this stack, and I think it's caught up with me. My body is very run down, cold sores and ulcers in my mouth. Things that tell me I'm run down. I'm also pretty grumpy as well. I took 600mg of Artichoke, and 25mg forskolin yesterday and it didn't seem to do anything, I think because of my tiredness.
I'm not taking anymore until the weekend to give my body a break. I will probably not take the stack for a few days during the week, and take it on the weekend.

It's funny, before my anhedonia/depression started, I used to love the sound of the rain on the roof, the sound of a vacuum cleaner, etc, but when the anhedonia came along, that all went. I even think my sense of smell isn't as keen as it was for some reason.
Last night I heard rain on the roof and I got a bit of that warm fuzzy feeling I used to get. That's exciting!

cheers Tim

[gizmobrain]

Another update: One week in and I think I have hit a wall. I've not had the best quality sleep since using this stack, and I think it's caught up with me. My body is very run down, cold sores and ulcers in my mouth. Things that tell me I'm run down. I'm also pretty grumpy as well. I took 600mg of Artichoke, and 25mg forskolin yesterday and it didn't seem to do anything, I think because of my tiredness.
I'm not taking anymore until the weekend to give my body a break. I will probably not take the stack for a few days during the week, and take it on the weekend.

It's funny, before my anhedonia/depression started, I used to love the sound of the rain on the roof, the sound of a vacuum cleaner, etc, but when the anhedonia came along, that all went. I even think my sense of smell isn't as keen as it was for some reason.
Last night I heard rain on the roof and I got a bit of that warm fuzzy feeling I used to get. That's exciting!

cheers Tim

Most people in this thread that take more than 10mg of Forskolin daily find the same problems.

My advice: take a few days or a week off, then start back up with only half of your current forskolin dose. Also consider grabbing some Galantamine from SmartPowders to take once a week or so. It's worked like a charm for me.

If you aren't getting good sleep, I highly recommend taking at night: magnesium (a bioavailable form, not oxide), melatonin, l-theanine, inositol, or some combination of these. They are all good for you, instead of prescription sleeping pills that mess you up, or diphenhydramine that will give you a hangover the next day.

Edited by zrbarnes, 07 November 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[timtam777]

Thanks for the info.

The capsules I have are filled with the equivalent of 25mg forskolin. I'll have to break them apart to decrease the dose.

Galantamine ordered . I do have some good quality magnesium at home. I'll have some at night.

[gizmobrain]

Thanks for the info.

The capsules I have are filled with the equivalent of 25mg forskolin. I'll have to break them apart to decrease the dose.

Galantamine ordered . I do have some good quality magnesium at home. I'll have some at night.

It's a bummer breaking open caps, but it makes the stack more sustainable, and reduces risk of potential kidney problems being caused by long term forskolin usage.

Depending on how desensitized your nACh receptors are, galantamine can pack quite a punch. However, if I take a break from CILTEP for a couple weeks, galantamine feels similar to any other choline booster. Taking it too often leads to headaches, and a flat mood. Some people complain of a "sense of doom" which is common with acetyl choline overload (don't take choline supps on the same days as Galatamine), but I've never had this problem.

I have tried Galantamine both on my days off and stacked with CILTEP, but in order to reduce risk of an all day headache from vasoconstriction, I usually at least cut back on caffeine and take no adderall on the day I take Galantamine.

You may want to try a half capsule the first time you take Galantamine to see how it agrees with you.

Edited by zrbarnes, 08 November 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[fenra]

Could anyone who has tried Phenibut report if it has comparable effects to ciltep, and perhaps try stacking them together?

[gizmobrain]

Could anyone who has tried Phenibut report if it has comparable effects to ciltep, and perhaps try stacking them together?

Phenibut is synthetic GABA with a phenyl ring attached. Not in anyway related to the pharmacology behind CILTEP. I have not directly stacked them together, because it would nullify the effects of the stack.

Phenibut decreases cAMP:

It' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2995847']It is established that beta-phenyl-GABA (phenibut) and partly GABA elicit direct depolarization of the isolated spinal cord motoneurons. The depolarizing effect of phenibut and a depolarizing component of GABA action do not alter in the presence of picrotoxin (10(-5) mol/l) and in the chloride-deficient medium. This depolarizing phenibut effect which is not bound with activation of GABAA-receptors and chloride channels coupled with them does not alter in Na+-deficient medium, enhances in the medium with excess of K+ ions (10 mol/l) and in presence of imidazol (5 . 10(-4) mol/l) and is completely abolished in the Ca2+-deficient medium with 2 mmol/l of Mn2+ or in the presence of 10(-4) mol/l theophylline. It is supposed that phenibut and partly GABA diminish intracellular concentration of cAMP via GABAB-receptor activation and decrease functional activity of voltage-dependent Ca2+-ionic channels and Ca2+-activated outward K+-currents.

→ source (external link)

It might allow someone who is over stimulated by CILTEP to be able to handle it, but a much better method would be to adjust your dosages. If you are finding that CILTEP is increasing anxiety, I would definitely try L-Theanine, Baicalin, or Rosemary extract instead of Phenibut. I've had good results with these if things get too "edgey".

Edited by zrbarnes, 08 November 2012 - 04:45 AM.

[fenra]

It might allow someone who is over stimulated by CILTEP to be able to handle it, but a much better method would be to adjust your dosages. If you are finding that CILTEP is increasing anxiety, I would definitely try L-Theanine, Baicalin, or Rosemary extract instead of Phenibut. I've had good results with all of these if things get to "edgey".

I am thinking about the increased extroversion and charisma reported by CILTEP takers; since I have seen Phenibut described as "being drunk, without the drunk part", it would be interesting for me to hear from someone who has tried both, that's all.

[Raza]

I've had both seperately, but never noticed increased sociability from CILTEP.

Thinking back, I've probably had them in my system together once or twice, but I can't have noticed anything special about the combo.

[Nootr]

It might allow someone who is over stimulated by CILTEP to be able to handle it, but a much better method would be to adjust your dosages. If you are finding that CILTEP is increasing anxiety, I would definitely try L-Theanine, Baicalin, or Rosemary extract instead of Phenibut. I've had good results with all of these if things get to "edgey".

I am thinking about the increased extroversion and charisma reported by CILTEP takers; since I have seen Phenibut described as "being drunk, without the drunk part", it would be interesting for me to hear from someone who has tried both, that's all.

I tried the combo and i like it. They increase action of each other. And since caffiene reduces GABA, phenibut replenishes it making you feel good.

Phenibut alone is a good stimulator but only during first month. Later your receptors are spoiled so its action becomes sedating and not activating.

Edited by Dan Brown, 09 November 2012 - 10:48 AM.