2626 replies to this topic

[bobz1lla]

Edit: I think "paired associates" on cambridgebrainsciences.com is as good a test of working memory as I've seen. I think I'll do a test where I get a few baseline readings without forskolin and then add it back, 5/10/15/20 mg (splitting up 25mg c-bolic tablets) and see when my working memory starts to degrade. I'll then add in the artichoke extract and see how far I get before working memory is affected. I know this isn't double blind or anything but it's better than nothing. BTW, I find my paired associates scores are usually increased the most by galantamine.

Any results from the working memory tests? I would think everyone would be interested in finding their optimal range.

[abelard lindsay]

Edit: I think "paired associates" on cambridgebrainsciences.com is as good a test of working memory as I've seen. I think I'll do a test where I get a few baseline readings without forskolin and then add it back, 5/10/15/20 mg (splitting up 25mg c-bolic tablets) and see when my working memory starts to degrade. I'll then add in the artichoke extract and see how far I get before working memory is affected. I know this isn't double blind or anything but it's better than nothing. BTW, I find my paired associates scores are usually increased the most by galantamine.

Any results from the working memory tests? I would think everyone would be interested in finding their optimal range.

The highest scores I get are 8s, but these are rare. I get 7s with 5mg of Forskolin and two artichoke extract. Taking 25mg forskolin has me getting 5s from time to time. 5mg of forskolin has a decent effect, so I'm going to stick with that for now. Trying less could be an option but it's difficult to measure at that low of a dose.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 February 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[peakplasma]

Nicotine is not too be toyed around with. It has a very low LD50 and is well known for being damaging to health even when used in "recommended dosages" and of course being extremely addictive. Trying to increase the effects of nicotine, given that it is dangerous to begin with, is a really dumb idea.

Perhaps you misunderstood: the aim is not to increase the effects of nicotine but to enhance the activation of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) via cAMP.

Sparing use of nicotine at low doses (I use <1mg) has limited long-term health risks.

Increased TH transcription should cease if forskolin is eliminated, right? I would hope the body would be able to return to baseline production. I'm guessing long-term dopa increase via TH would be felt whole body? Not sure if TH/cAMP's role with dopa is isolated to the brain.

There's gotta be addiction potential with the things people are mixing. Not including peak's nicotine OD.

Discontinuation of Forskolin would permit a return to baseline.. and the addiction potential is obviously significant, yes.

[Raza]

To build on that response, tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) is the rate-limiting enzyme in dopamine (& other catecholamine) synthesis. cAMP plays a role in TH transcription and therefore, can significantly increase DA in the long-term (without downregulation via homeostasis). CILTEP already comes with a built-in dopamine increase via an increase in phosphorylation of TH.

I have a secret.

I haven't posted about it thus far, since I'm extremely concerned a silly individual might kill themselves but it is honestly better I tell you and warn you about the dangers.

This is not medical advice. Use at your own risk.

Here is my secret: nicotine gum.

If you need a stimulant boost for the CILTEP, try some nicotine gum BUT BEWARE IT IS DANGEROUSLY STRONG!

The study below suggests nicotine has very powerful effects in combination since it can sustain the TH phosphorylation increase for up to 48 hours from mere minutes!

Sustained phosphorylation of tyrosine hydroxylase at serine 40: a novel mechanism for maintenance of catecholamine synthesis.


Abstract


Tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) is the rate-limiting enzyme in catecholamine synthesis. Its activity is known to be controlled acutely (minutes) by phosphorylation and chronically (days) by protein synthesis. Using bovine adrenal chromaffin cells we found that nicotine, acting via nicotinic receptors, sustained the phosphorylation of TH at Ser40 for up to 48 h. Nicotine also induced sustained activation of TH, which for the first 24 h was completely independent of TH protein synthesis, and the phosphorylation of TH at Ser31. Imipramine did not inhibit the acute phosphorylation of TH at Ser40 or TH activation induced by nicotine, but did inhibit the sustained responses to nicotine seen at 24 h. The protein kinase(s) responsible for TH phosphorylation at Ser40 switched from being protein kinase C (PKC) independent in the acute phase to PKC dependent in the sustained phase. Sustained phosphorylation and activation of TH were also observed with histamine and angiotensin II. Sustained phosphorylation of TH at Ser40 provides a novel mechanism for increasing TH activity and this leads to increased catecholamine synthesis. Sustained phosphorylation of TH may be a selective target for drugs or pathology in neurons that contain TH and synthesize dopamine, noradrenaline or adrenaline.

I have been using nicotine gum with CILTEP for >3 months when I really need an energy boost. It turns CILTEP into meth; it is incredibly stimulating + don't plan on sleeping or eating.

EDIT: Sources! ONE! TWO! POW!

Also, I should give credit to the earlier discussion in this thread regarding adding nicotine to the CILTEP stack. However, I can only assume those individuals tried nicotine+CILTEP, became insanely addicted and died from a stroke shortly after. RIP hephaestus RIP nidhogg

That's very interesting. Nicotine without tobacco smoke isn't all that unhealthy, the vast majority of smoking's payload comes from other things and the addiction potential from the combination with a dopamine increaser, in tobacco's case the MAOIs (obviously, that means it probably will be addictive in this combo - but addiction doesn't happen without continued use). Nicotine alone is a nice short acting nootropic stimulant that I occasionally use already, by dropping e-cig solution sublingual.

Why do you think it would circumvent downregulation/homeostasis, though? Increasing dopamine levels by any mechanism will downregulate your receptors, the way I understand it.

I had to read further into your sources to begin to follow the mechanism, but it does look like they're saying that cAMP-triggered phosphorylation (activation) of tyrosine hydroxylase will be massively extended by nicotine. So you basically take that and forskolin simultaneously? At what dose, and is the PDE inhibitor relevant?

I have everything I need lying around, including uridine if the dopamine gets too much, and experience with stimulants; I think I'll try this sometime.

Anyway, doesn't tyrosine hydroxylase initiate some sort of growth chain reaction body builders are keen on?

[jadamgo]

I'd expect TH to play a role in the fat-cutting phase of bodybuilding cycles, given its role in the synthesis of catecholamines, but I'd be pretty surprised if it played a big role in anabolic muscle growth.

[s33dUnda]

First off thanks for everyone's input. This is invaluable insight into one of my favorite subjects to experiment with, nootropics. What is best about he feedback is that no one is pushing a product- unbiased. I don't trust Dr. Oz or Tim Ferriss - "WHO DOES NUMBER 2 WORK FOR?!" Sorry, subconsciouss Austin Powers torrets.

I have started the forskolin 250mg 20% weighed at 5mg and 2x artichoke 500mg. Great stuff really helping me learn as a linux system admin intern. That said, I have used piracetam in the past and really enjoyed it. And am looking to add it in but see phenylpiracitam trumping. And yet another player noopept(?) Mainly I noticed this particular feed refers to research and you guys are not quick to throw in the towel without adjusting dosage. which I see a lot of around here.

Does anyone recommend one over the other? Please stay in context with this stack if possible.

Edited by s33dUnda, 23 February 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[peakplasma]

Why do you think it would circumvent downregulation/homeostasis, though? Increasing dopamine levels by any mechanism will downregulate your receptors, the way I understand it.

Long-term regulation of TH can be mediated via transcription (gene expression). What I meant is that there is no check to an increase at the genetic level like at the receptor level. Increased DA/NE may lead to receptor downregulation but this is way downstream of transcription so probably limited. Keep in my mind - its still theoretical with only early evidence.

So you basically take that and forskolin simultaneously? At what dose, and is the PDE inhibitor relevant?

Forksolin increases TH via cAMP and nicotine would sustain this increase. I would imagine that you could reduce side effects with PDE inhibition.

I am nicotine-naive so I use as little as possible... <1mg. Forskolin has a bit of a parabolic response curve so you'll have to find your happy median but I use ~5mg.

[abelard lindsay]

Curcumin looks to have some non-selective activity:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22045655

We report that curcumin inhibits PDE1-5 activities (IC(50) ≅10(-5)  M), indicating that curcumin acts as a non-selective PDE inhibitor.

So that would be about 10um. Not bad. Hmm..

This study is also interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22145830

Curcuminoids promote neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells through MAPK/ERK- and PKC-dependent pathways.

...

All three curcuminoids (20 μM) activated extracellular signal-regulated protein kinase 1/2 (ERK1/2) and protein kinase C (PKC) signalings, and inhibition of these kinases with the respective pharmacological inhibitors effectively attenuated curcuminoid-induced neurite outgrowth. Furthermore, our results show that both curcumin and DMC, but not BDMC, induced phosphorylation of cAMP response element-binding protein (CREB) and CRE-reporter gene activity significantly (p < 0.05). These inductions were markedly attenuated by the addition of MEK/ERK or PKC inhibitor; as a consequence, ERK- and PKC-dependent pathways may be involved in curcuminoid-mediated neuritogenesis in PC12 cells. Moreover, activation of CREB coupling with CRE-dependent gene transcription may play a vital role for curcumin- or DMC-induced PC12 differentiation.

So maybe Curcumin would synergize as it activates CREB via PKC and MEK/ERK?

Edited by abelard lindsay, 24 February 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[MikeMMK1990@gmail.com]

I've seen some people use 98% forskolin extract and some use 10-20% extract on this thread. I'm not sure what to start off with.. what would be a good dose to avoid the too little/ too much U-curve bad effects of using this.

[abelard lindsay]

I've seen some people use 98% forskolin extract and some use 10-20% extract on this thread. I'm not sure what to start off with.. what would be a good dose to avoid the too little/ too much U-curve bad effects of using this.

I use about 5mg of Forskolin. I find that higher amounts don't work as well. The reason people use higher potency forskolin is that it does not include the non-essential parts of the herb, which some studies have shown to be somewhat detrimental to the liver over the long term (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22729658). In the study, the active ingredient of the herb coleus forskohlii, Forskolin, did not cause any liver issues.

One technique I've used to take more pure forskolin is to empty the C-Bolic 95% pure forskolin capsules into a supplement container and then take 150mg of that. The pills are 750mg and contain 25mg of forskolin, with the rest being filler so by taking 150mg of the emptied out capsules I'm getting roughly 5mg of forskolin.

When I started out I used Solaray Forskolin which is just the raw herb and contains 3.85mg of Forskolin per pill. It does contain all the non-essential parts of the herb. Now that I am taking this for the long-term I've switched over to 95% pure Forskolin

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 April 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[fenra]

I have taken the pills one at a time and I gotta say the one that gives me the hypochondrial symptoms is the artichoke! Perhaps it just stimulates bile flow, I cannot say. A simple enzyme elevation shouldn't cause noticeable symptoms, although I'm sure it isn't my stomach.

[elsargente]

I just wanted to start this post off with a big THANK YOU to the OP and the rest of you guys for making probably the best online forum thread I've ever seen. I tried CILTEP for the first time this morning and I must say that I am absolutely loving it! I started with Quercetin instead of Artichoke because I put in my order before reading about how Quercetin isn't so good for this stack in the latter part of the thread. I was hoping that Quercetin would help with my allergies, but at the dose I am taking I have not seen any benefit as far as today's allergies go (I took my usual Chlorpheniramine maleate and that did the trick like always). Back to the topic at hand - I took 400mg quercetin, 10mg forskolin, 500mg l-phenylalanine and 250mg of choline bitartrate about 6 hours ago. About an hour later I also took 4.8g of Piracetam and had a tall Starbucks coffee. About 30 minutes after taking the original CILTEP + choline dosage, I noticed some pretty distinguishable results. I felt a definite increase in physical energy, my body felt lighter, and I got the classical "mind-opening" effect that has been mentioned multiple times in this thread. After taking piracetam and drinking my coffee an hour later, these effects became even more pronounced. I had lunch about an hour ago, after which I experienced some slight drowsiness (possibly from over-eating), but now that my food has settled I am still strongly experiencing the effects from this morning's stack. So as of right now I can definitely say that I am enjoying the effects from the CILTEP stack, and that I definitely think it has some serious synergy with caffeine, choline and piracetam. I would like to post the daily regimen that I plan on taking from here on out, and maybe you guys could give me some insight on it:

07:00AM
400mg quercetin
10mg forskolin
500mg l-phenylalanine
4.8g piracetam

30 - 60 min. later
bulletproof coffee
multivitamin
5000iu vitamin d3
1.8g omega 3
250mg choline bitartrate

12:00PM
lunch

05:00PM
kale shake
2g vitamin c
5g creatine monohydrate
4.8g piracetam? - depends on if I'm going to be at school/studying that night

07:30PM
dinner
1.8g omega 3

10:00PM
425mg magnesium malate
bed

I also have some Oxiracetam and Sulbutiamine at my disposal, but the oxi tends to give me diarrhea and the sulbutiamine hasn't had much of an effect on me in the past. I may try messing around with these some more in the near future.

Edited by elsargente, 26 February 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[chung_pao]

Try stacking the CILTP with sulbutiamine. It's by far been the best adjunct for me, producing pronounced effects.
Keep in mind, that sulbutiamine has to be taken with a lot of omega 3/6 for it to absorb. (I MIX it with liquid fish oil before ingesting)
I didn't do this the first times I tried it, and my first impression was that sulb. was useless. However, I was waaaaay wrong. It just needed to be absorbed properly.

[elsargente]

I don't think it necessarily has to be taken with a lot of omega 3/6 in order for it to absorb, I think any source of fat will do the trick as Sulbutiamine is fat-soluable. I've messed around with the dosage a few times, always taken with food, but never really noticed much of an effect. I've tried anywhere from 200 - 800mg's of the stuff, but maybe I should try a little bit more the next time I decide to try it out. There is a product that I absolutely love by Biotest called "SPIKE Energy Tablets", it contains some sort of "activated" Sulbutiamine (along with Caffeine, Theophylline and Yohimbine HCI) that can be taken with OR without food. This product is amazing and after only one tablet I can definitely feel some effects for the greater part of the day. I would imagine that SPIKE would stack VERY well with CILTEP and a Racetam/Noopept.

On another note, I tried some maximum strength Resveratrol instead of Quercetin with my CILTEP stack this morning and while I definitely feel some effects, I don't think they are as strong as they were yesterday. I also have yet to take any Piracetam or Choline this morning so perhaps that explains some of this as well. I really loved how I felt yesterday, but can anyone tell me if I should be ditching the Quercetin for Artichoke? I'm primarily taking this stack to help with my College Algebra course (I've had a lot of trouble with this course in the past, I'm not so good with math) but I think I remember reading something about Quercetin having some negative effects on certain aspects of memory/learning and I can't afford to be hampering my brain's potential at this point.

Edited by elsargente, 27 February 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Killword]

I noticed a forskolin preparation at my local health food store with "Activessence® (a patented enzyme activation system-Cellulase, Pectinase, Hemicellulase and Xylanase) (forskolin-liberating enzymes)" that is supposed to help with forskolin absorption (so it says). Considering that most of those enzymes are in run-of-the-mill digestion enzyme supplements (which I happened to have), I've been adding them to my CILTeP stack for the past couple weeks. I haven't noticed any difference in effects from it except that my transient stomach upset and semi-frequent flank and back pain I used to get at night after taking forskolin have pretty much disappeared. I figure it's possible those enzymes are helping to break down the non-essential 80% of my 20% forskolin extract that may have been causing those problems. Anyone else have these enzymes on hand that could test whether they have an effect?

Edited by Killword, 01 March 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[peakplasma]

I noticed a forskolin preparation at my local health food store with "Activessence® (a patented enzyme activation system-Cellulase, Pectinase, Hemicellulase and Xylanase) (forskolin-liberating enzymes)" that is supposed to help with forskolin absorption (so it says). Considering that most of those enzymes are in run-of-the-mill digestion enzyme supplements (which I happened to have), I've been adding them to my CILTeP stack for the past couple weeks. I haven't noticed any difference in effects from it except that my transient stomach upset and semi-frequent flank and back pain I used to get at night after taking forskolin have pretty much disappeared. I figure it's possible those enzymes are helping to break down the non-essential 80% of my 20% forskolin extract that may have been causing those problems. Anyone else have these enzymes on hand that could test whether they have an effect?

Interesting. I recently started taking digestive enzymes as well and have noticed a bit less stomach upset, albeit, different enzymes for a different purpose than yours.

Is there any science to support this idea? I imagined that part of the problem with Forskolin nausea was OVER activity of enzymes from cAMP.

[johnj88]

Finally got unlazy to read this thread and try the stack. Wish I had tried it MONTHS ago.

Background:
1. Recovering polysubstance abuser - cannabis, opioids, amphetmines, methylphenidate, LSD, shrooms, benzos, MDMA
2. Prone to DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, OCD, ADD - used to self medicate for these issues, but now have resolved them for the most part naturally and with noots.
2. Struggling med student, performing at BELOW average - to great discouragement - yet hungry and ambitious to work my way up to the top
3. Recently quit all drugs for a few weeks now to achieve mental, physical, emotional stability
4. Just started a rigorous exercise program - and without drugs - I feel the best I have ever felt

Stack in order, on an empty stomach, Day 1:
1. 4.8 g Piracetam, 0.9 g Choline Bitartrate, 6 g Inositol (for OCD)
2. Solaray - Forskohlii - 385 mg, 1% Forskolin [3.85 mg]
3. Solaray - Artichoke - 300 mg, 5% [30 mg] caffeoylquinic acid and derivatives X2
4. Solgar - L-Phenylalanine - 500 mg
5. Starbucks grande redeye - coffee with 2 espresso shots

Subjective / placebo:
1. Mind opening sensation, akin to the feeling of LSD without the mindfucking - as if my mind was a locked vault before, but now has become wide open, ready to absorb any material
2. My mind feels plastic and moldable, as if I were a kid again!
3. Increased ability to study
4. Mood brightening, anti-depressant / anxiolytic qualities
5. Increased sociability

During workout:
1. Absolutely killed it in the gym today for a leg workout - felt superbly natural, as if I had taken Craze - must have been the dopamine release from intense sprints and squats

Conclusion:
From this stack, I feel like I have found the holy grail for my brain. Previously was using tons of noots, especially aniracetam and noopept, to tackle the med school load and recover from a previous stimulant binge (learned my lesson - never again!). Was getting tolerant to noopept and aniracetam. Noopept - felt increasingly emotional and irritable, and a hit to my working/short-term memory. Aniracetam - felt tolerance, diminishing returns, too short of a half life. Took a break from both, and started this stack. Thank you to the OP and those who have contributed to this thread. I feel like this stack is really something my brain needs for all the above reasons. I have the work ethic, the hunger, ambition, and drive to succeed as a budding physician, yet my LINGERING issues with depression / anxiety / OCD gets in the way sometimes. I am addressing the underlying issues behind these. I believe the CiLTP is not my answer nor crutch, yet a catalyst for positive change. Also will abstain from amps, due to previous abuse, or having a strict limit to once a week is my goal.

Hopes:
1. No tolerance
2. No irritability
3. Continued positive benefits over the long-term

Questions: Sorry for the dumb questions below, I haven't had the time to read the primary literature, nor all 40 pages here, due to rigorous study demands on a daily basis and my poor current academic performance.
1. What are the down-sides to this stack? Feels too good to be true. Any potential negative effects from PDE4 inhibition and increased levels of cAMP?
2. Why does exercise with this feel so damn good? Rigorous exercise + stack = OK for my body and brain?
3. A bit confused on dopamine and memory.
From personal anecdotal experience, I have found that INCREASED dopamine has negatively affected my memory - on amps, MPH, Rhodiola, I would feel the motivation to work, yet I couldn't remember much of what I had studied.
With DECREASED dopamine, such as with Bacopa, or the facilitation of dopamine, as with sulbutiamine, I felt an increased effect on memory.
4. Can anyone speculate as to how Rhodiola (MAOI) and bacopa would add or subtract to this stack? With bacopa, I always feel a decreased dopaminergic pull, and know that people strive for increased dopamine in this stack.
5. Taking some chelated Mg at night, how will this affect CiLTP?
6. I have some sublingual NADH - an indirect Tyrosine Hydroxylase activity increaser - can anyone speculate how this will add/subtract to this stack?

Long post, but I just wanted to share a day 1 success on my end with CiLTP. I am excited to try it again tomorrow. I also have a small quantity of Coluracetam that I will add tomorrow. I wasn't able to do much studying today, as I had social obligations, so I am also excited for a full day of studying tomorrow.

Thanks all!

Edited by johnj88, 03 March 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[norepinephrine]

1) The most obvious downsides, in my mind, are exactly the same as from any overreliance on stimulants. Watch your sleep quality and how much energy you have during the day when not on CILTEP. In my experience, I need time off the stack to recuperate in terms of sleep needs. Of course, I'm not an expert on the finer details of cAMP and PDE inhibition, so take my words above with a grain of salt.
4) In my experience, at lower dosages rhodiola synergizes fine with the stack, though I don't notice much in general from rhodiola save for a slightly better mood. I find higher doses of rhodiola to be anxiogenic, so I skip anything greater than 500mg (3% rosavins) and typically stay at half that.
I would speculate that bacopa may cancel some of the effects of the stack, though. I've never taken the two concurrently, but my experience with bacopa was about the polar opposite of CILTEP - fogginess, numb to pleasure and wanting to sleep/lounge around all day. I suppose it'd be handy in case you get overstimulated from CILTEP, though I generally just keep ashwagandha on hand for that.
5) Magnesium is probably an unspoken requirement for the stack if you're going to take it for any extended period of time. I would assume most people on here are already taking it.

[abelard lindsay]

3. A bit confused on dopamine and memory.
From personal anecdotal experience, I have found that INCREASED dopamine has negatively affected my memory - on amps, MPH, Rhodiola, I would feel the motivation to work, yet I couldn't remember much of what I had studied.
With DECREASED dopamine, such as with Bacopa, or the facilitation of dopamine, as with sulbutiamine, I felt an increased effect on memory.

The theory is that the stack causes upregulation of Tyrosine Hydroxylase and increasing CREB activation. The idea being that dopamine metabolism is increased yet the body can maintain homeostasis in the rate of various metabolic steps in the process of dopamine metabolism because the tyrosine hydroxylase is upregulated indirectly as a result of the increasing CREB activation. Most drugs skip steps by directly providing metabolites (L-Dopa) or by directly activating dopamine receptors (e.g Pramipexole) or directly inhibiting enzymes (MAO and COMT inhibitors). The CREB activation is what is theorized to be responsible for the memory improvement. The upregulation of Tyrosine Hydroxylase is what is theorized to improves motivation and brain function without causing downregulation of receptors.


As far as keeping the stack working, I would recommend a b-complex, as they are important co-factors in dopamine metabolism. If you run out of dopamine co-factors and pre-cursors (e.g L-Phenylalanine) you'll likely get sleepy after a couple of days of taking the stack. Also, make sure to take it in the morning and keep the Forskolin under 5mg.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 03 March 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Vors]

I'm gonna give this stack another go, since it's been updated from last year. I'm now taking Bupropion, can anyone see any problems with this, or would it be better without it?

Edited by Vors, 03 March 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[nupi]

Bupropion is at best slightly dopaminergic so there should be no obvious problems...

[Reformed-Redan]

Hey, abelard lindsay could you summarize your finding and experiences from this thread and other memebers int he first post like ScienceGuy did in his Treating Anxiety Safely and Effectively? Like what is the CILEP stack good for and so on? Much appreciated, thanks.

[Reformed-Redan]

Is the CILEP stack for people who have ADD? Lol, this thread speaks well for ADD (no offence).

[chung_pao]

In case anyone is wondering, Modafinil + CILTP works great.
No need to write the usual wall of text about it, but the combination is extremely effective in enhancing memory-encoding and motivation.

[alecnevsky]

In case anyone is wondering, Modafinil + CILTP works great.
No need to write the usual wall of text about it, but the combination is extremely effective in enhancing memory-encoding and motivation.

This study mentioned mod-ltp occludes for ltp, particularly this chart. I did h/e try modafinil on ciltep and felt its [mod's] effects regardless. So it seems likely that forskolin doesn't interfere with modafinil but mod probably occludes forskolin-ltp. So is there really a good reason to take both simultaneously?

[chung_pao]

In case anyone is wondering, Modafinil + CILTP works great.
No need to write the usual wall of text about it, but the combination is extremely effective in enhancing memory-encoding and motivation.

This study mentioned mod-ltp occludes for ltp, particularly this chart. I did h/e try modafinil on ciltep and felt its [mod's] effects regardless. So it seems likely that forskolin doesn't interfere with modafinil but mod probably occludes forskolin-ltp. So is there really a good reason to take both simultaneously?

Interesting. It seems, the only thing I can say for sure is that CILTP enhances the modafinil-induced wakefulness.

Regardless of what the study says, I'm absolutely sure that modafinil didn't lower LTP. If anything it improved it.
Recall the following day was very superior to what it usually is, no matter if that was due to the increased wakefulness, "LTP" or a difference in consolidation (considering moda affects sleep).
I will continue using moda as an occasional addition to the CILTP-stack due to its potentiating effect on all dopaminergic activity, due to the essential part dopamine plays in learning.

Edited by chung_pao, 04 March 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[johnj88]

HAHA, that was a gigantic wall of text. On the verge of hypomania these days, and couldn't help myself after feeling the benefits of this stack - never felt this awesome with any solo noot or combo.

Anyway, just wanted to confirm that:
Bacopa - did indeed greatly diminish the subjective "feeling" of LTP, aka "mind-openness"
Coluracetam 10 mg sublingual - seems to synergize well with the sack

Much love and thanks Norep and Abelard, for tolerating the mass of text, and your contributions to this thread. I can't imagine my life without this stack anymore!

PS - off topic, I apologize, is there a way to edit old posts? I looked around for a bit, but couldn't find a faq. I'd like to delete some portions of my last post that doesn't add much, which is most of it.

Edited by johnj88, 05 March 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[johnj88]

After reading some more pages of this thread -
Was the paper on hepatotoxicity in rats from something in Coleus forskohlii addressed?

I know that zbarnes had a liver panel done with lab values in the normal range, yet just concerned about taking this herbal extract in the long term. I guess I'll either have to get some pure Forskolin or get some liver enzyme tests done.

Abelard Lindsay or anyone, are you concerned about hepatotoxicity from Coleus forskohlii?

Edited by johnj88, 07 March 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[leftside]

In case anyone is wondering, Modafinil + CILTP works great.
No need to write the usual wall of text about it, but the combination is extremely effective in enhancing memory-encoding and motivation.

This study mentioned mod-ltp occludes for ltp, particularly this chart. I did h/e try modafinil on ciltep and felt its [mod's] effects regardless. So it seems likely that forskolin doesn't interfere with modafinil but mod probably occludes forskolin-ltp. So is there really a good reason to take both simultaneously?

Interesting. It seems, the only thing I can say for sure is that CILTP enhances the modafinil-induced wakefulness.

Regardless of what the study says, I'm absolutely sure that modafinil didn't lower LTP. If anything it improved it.
Recall the following day was very superior to what it usually is, no matter if that was due to the increased wakefulness, "LTP" or a difference in consolidation (considering moda affects sleep).
I will continue using moda as an occasional addition to the CILTP-stack due to its potentiating effect on all dopaminergic activity, due to the essential part dopamine plays in learning.

I agree with this. I started taking 500mg acetyl l-tyrosine + 500 mg artichoke extract + 10 mg coleus forskolii last week and was pleasantly surprised by the results. I had a particularly tiring weekend and added 200mg Modafinil on Monday and Tuesday and they went very well together.

I'm also going to slowly start adding things from my usual nootropic stack to see if I can get more improvements.

1) The most obvious downsides, in my mind, are exactly the same as from any overreliance on stimulants. Watch your sleep quality and how much energy you have during the day when not on CILTEP. In my experience, I need time off the stack to recuperate in terms of sleep needs. Of course, I'm not an expert on the finer details of cAMP and PDE inhibition, so take my words above with a grain of salt.
4) In my experience, at lower dosages rhodiola synergizes fine with the stack, though I don't notice much in general from rhodiola save for a slightly better mood. I find higher doses of rhodiola to be anxiogenic, so I skip anything greater than 500mg (3% rosavins) and typically stay at half that.
I would speculate that bacopa may cancel some of the effects of the stack, though. I've never taken the two concurrently, but my experience with bacopa was about the polar opposite of CILTEP - fogginess, numb to pleasure and wanting to sleep/lounge around all day. I suppose it'd be handy in case you get overstimulated from CILTEP, though I generally just keep ashwagandha on hand for that.
5) Magnesium is probably an unspoken requirement for the stack if you're going to take it for any extended period of time. I would assume most people on here are already taking it.

I also agree with all of this. I had the same experiences last week.

[ThepickLe]

I'm absolutely new here so forgive my ignorance. After reading most of this thread, I went down to my local vitamin shop and had to try it for myself. Now, I've only tried it once and I can definitely tell that something was happening and it seemed like I was able to focus a little better, but at the same time I ended up with a slight headache. On a scale of 1-10 it was a 1 or a 2. It was barely noticeable but I thought I might jump and see if anyone is running into this. This is what I ended up getting, because the vitamin store I went to didn't have the "now" line of products.

1. Nature's way Artichoke Extract - 600mg (6% caffeoylquinic acids) - Took 2
2. Solaray Forskohlii (1% Forskolin 3.85 mg) - Took 1
3. Solgar L-Phenylalanine 500mg's (free form) - Took 2

Now I know the "Now Artichoke Extract" is 425mg's (I think). Do you think the additional 350mg's of Artichoke Extract could cause my slight headache? Or is there something else at work here?

I will also note that I take a multi-vitamin, juice on a regular basis, exercise on a regular basis and as of late, take bacopa. However, I only take that before I go to sleep. I'm not sure how long it stays in your body and has an interaction with the stack above.

Any info would be great! By the way excellent thread and excellent forums!!! I wish I would have come across this a long time ago.

Also, any suggestions for someone that is allergic to Artichoke? My wife has ADD, but she's seriously allergic to Artichoke. I know you had suggest Quercetin, but then dropped it.

Edited by ThepickLe, 09 March 2013 - 05:28 PM.