2626 replies to this topic

[Reformed-Redan]

Also check this thread on COMT inhibition:
www.longecity.org/forum/topic/50102-comt-inhibitor-synergy

How about Echinacea or Bilberry extract (cichoric acid)? Those seem like the safest COMT inhibitors according to this thread and his other.

You could stick with EGCG; but, only on an as needed basis. I think the CILEP stack on its on is pretty strong stuff. You could also add nicotine; but, at some point there will be problems with sustainability and diminishing returns.

[MikeMMK1990@gmail.com]

Also check this thread on COMT inhibition:
www.longecity.org/forum/topic/50102-comt-inhibitor-synergy

How about Echinacea or Bilberry extract (cichoric acid)? Those seem like the safest COMT inhibitors according to this thread and his other.

You could stick with EGCG; but, only on an as needed basis. I think the CILEP stack on its on is pretty strong stuff. You could also add nicotine; but, at some point there will be problems with sustainability and diminishing returns.

Wouldn't EGCG be more of a risk due to the DNA synthesis issue that was pointed out in this thread? http://www.longecity...it-dna-enzymes/ (studies supporting this claim in his previous thread). I'm not sure how nicotine works in the body, how would that be a better alternative than rosmarinic acid and cichoric acid?

Edited by MikeMMK1990@gmail.com, 20 March 2013 - 01:49 AM.

[xsiv1]

I'm concerned that the standard stack of Artichoke 450mgs-500, 10-15mgs Coleus and L-Phenylalanine could cause unforeseen neurological damage. I'm on day 43 or so of it. I'm not going to mess with what's working at this point.

[peakplasma]

I'm concerned that the standard stack of Artichoke 450mgs-500, 10-15mgs Coleus and L-Phenylalanine could cause unforeseen neurological damage. I'm on day 43 or so of it. I'm not going to mess with what's working at this point.

What?! Why?!

Edited by peakplasma, 20 March 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[xsiv1]

Well, mostly because all this talk about COMT inhibition and DNA damage and whatever else I'm getting in spurts of info. I should have asked whether anyone thought the "standard" or "original" stack I listed above would pose any sort of threat. I'm not interested in mixing in Quercetin or EGCG at this point and according to what I've read, it's seemingly not a good idea. Sorry to cause any alarm. It really should have been rephrased as a question of whether or not we should be concerned with it's ongoing use. My bad.

Edited by xsiv1, 20 March 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[peakplasma]

Well, mostly because all this talk about COMT inhibition and DNA damage and whatever else I'm getting in spurts of info. I should have asked whether anyone thought the "standard" or "original" stack I listed above would pose any sort of threat. I'm not interested in mixing in Quercetin or EGCG at this point and according to what I've read, it's seemingly not a good idea. Sorry to cause any alarm. It really should have been rephrased as a question of whether or not we should be concerned with it's ongoing use. My bad.

But what exactly have you read to suggest the stack of "Artichoke, Forskolin, LPA" would cause neurological damage?

In another thread we were talking about risks related to adrenaline and glucagon increases but I haven't read anything to suggest neurological damage.

Edited by peakplasma, 20 March 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[xsiv1]

Well, mostly because all this talk about COMT inhibition and DNA damage and whatever else I'm getting in spurts of info. I should have asked whether anyone thought the "standard" or "original" stack I listed above would pose any sort of threat. I'm not interested in mixing in Quercetin or EGCG at this point and according to what I've read, it's seemingly not a good idea. Sorry to cause any alarm. It really should have been rephrased as a question of whether or not we should be concerned with it's ongoing use. My bad.

But what exactly have you read to suggest the stack of "Artichoke, Forskolin, LPA" would cause neurological damage?

In another thread we were talking about risks related to adrenaline and glucagon increases but I haven't read anything to suggest neurological damage.

No, I didn't read that the above listed combo specifically had anything to do with dna/neuro damage. In the last couple pages, it seems people were introducing new discussion with a link to another thread suggesting that EGCG and the like messes with and could cause neuronal/dna damage. I've posed that question, and if anyone has seen anything to suggest, that the original stack may also be a cause for concern. I'm guessing it's not. Sorry for the confusion, but the extraneous information about additions to the original stack has thrown some wrenches into how I read the thread. I've read NOTHING to suggest the original Artichoke, Forskolin, LPA stack would do anything adverse to the the user. I suppose it's when you're adding other COMT inhibitors and the like where problems could occur. Look to Mike44842448's post a page up.

[xsiv1]

Also check this thread on COMT inhibition:
www.longecity.org/forum/topic/50102-comt-inhibitor-synergy

How about Echinacea or Bilberry extract (cichoric acid)? Those seem like the safest COMT inhibitors according to this thread and his other.

You could stick with EGCG; but, only on an as needed basis. I think the CILEP stack on its on is pretty strong stuff. You could also add nicotine; but, at some point there will be problems with sustainability and diminishing returns.

Wouldn't EGCG be more of a risk due to the DNA synthesis issue that was pointed out in this thread? http://www.longecity...it-dna-enzymes/ (studies supporting this claim in his previous thread). I'm not sure how nicotine works in the body, how would that be a better alternative than rosmarinic acid and cichoric acid?

It appears that any potential dangers of the aforementioned combo are only reserved to those cases where people are adding EGCG and other COMT inhibitors. No cause for alarm...move along, nothing to see here lol. Sorry 'bout that.

[chung_pao]

Agreed on the COMT-inhibitor; it's an adjunct that could make the stack dangerous. I'd withdraw that recommendation.
Adding a COMT-inhibitor felt great at the time (as all dopamine does), but more dopamine release isn't better.
It likely leads to neurotoxicity, as is the case with all excessive releases of neurotransmitters.

I assume this could also be the case for modafinil since I've discovered it to have quite a lot of side-effects, which could be due to neurotoxicity.
Stay with the normal stack, add some racetams or some ginkgo if you're looking for synergy.

[peakplasma]

I assume this could also be the case for modafinil since I've discovered it to have quite a lot of side-effects, which could be due to neurotoxicity.

What side effects?

[xsiv1]

Back pain, nausea, nervousness? Those are the most common and someone prone to anxiety would likely feel the latter but requires it for a pathology or as a study aid.

[Killword]

Am I missing something or is there currently no reason to think that COMT inhibitors are "dangerous" with this stack? Perhaps I need to read the COMT thread more closely but it seems the supposed dangers of CERTAIN inhibitors are associated with mechanisms unrelated to COMT inhibition. But even if that is the case, I fail to see why they should be *more* dangerous when combined with CILTEP.

[xsiv1]

Am I missing something or is there currently no reason to think that COMT inhibitors are "dangerous" with this stack? Perhaps I need to read the COMT thread more closely but it seems the supposed dangers of CERTAIN inhibitors are associated with mechanisms unrelated to COMT inhibition. But even if that is the case, I fail to see why they should be *more* dangerous when combined with CILTEP.

They way I understood it was that it could become neurotoxic. One of the main ones identified that 'could' cause this risk was concurrent use of EGCG which happens to be a significant topoisomerase inhibitor. Essentially it could interfere with DNA strands and disrupt normal cell functioning. I'm unsure as to how the flood of dopamine that may result when combined with CILTEP acts in terms of neurotoxicity but it doesn't sound like a great idea.

[jadamgo]

Update: It's been about a month since I've visited the forum. I've still been using the CILTEP stack, though I've become dissatisfied with the forskolin's short half-life. Adding additional artichoke extract in the afternoon doesn't increase energy; it only provides unpleasant mental side effects. So I've mixed the contents of 1 month's worth of artichoke, forskolin, and CarnitAll capsules together into 100 double-0 sized capsules. I'll be trying a new dosage pattern: 2 capsules in the morning, and 1-2 as needed in the afternoon or early evening.

This is the same total amount of artichoke and forskolin that I was taking earlier (3 caps of NOW Foods artichoke extract, and 1 cap of 6.25mg forskolin). The difference is that the forskolin is spread out across the day, instead of taken all at once in the morning. I'll report in a few days if it works better -- I hope it will provide a more level energy boost lasting all day instead of only a burst of energy in the morning and the return of fatigue in the evening.

EDIT: For reference, the CarnitAll doesn't appear to do much of anything. The active ingredient, ALCAR, is at too low of a dosage to be effective. I only added it to this mixture as a filler. Next time, I'll use piracetam + choline as the filler, which I expect will actually DO something.

Edited by jadamgo, 21 March 2013 - 01:20 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Could I get a 1-10 scale on how effective is your CILEP as compared to MPH or Adderall?

[abelard lindsay]

This is the same total amount of artichoke and forskolin that I was taking earlier (3 caps of NOW Foods artichoke extract, and 1 cap of 6.25mg forskolin). The difference is that the forskolin is spread out across the day, instead of taken all at once in the morning. I'll report in a few days if it works better -- I hope it will provide a more level energy boost lasting all day instead of only a burst of energy in the morning and the return of fatigue in the evening.

EDIT: For reference, the CarnitAll doesn't appear to do much of anything. The active ingredient, ALCAR, is at too low of a dosage to be effective. I only added it to this mixture as a filler. Next time, I'll use piracetam + choline as the filler, which I expect will actually DO something.

I know about the afternoon sleepiness. To counteract that I take a 350mg Jarrow NALT and a 200mg caffeine pill about 2pm everyday and I'm golden.

[xsiv1]

This is the same total amount of artichoke and forskolin that I was taking earlier (3 caps of NOW Foods artichoke extract, and 1 cap of 6.25mg forskolin). The difference is that the forskolin is spread out across the day, instead of taken all at once in the morning. I'll report in a few days if it works better -- I hope it will provide a more level energy boost lasting all day instead of only a burst of energy in the morning and the return of fatigue in the evening.

EDIT: For reference, the CarnitAll doesn't appear to do much of anything. The active ingredient, ALCAR, is at too low of a dosage to be effective. I only added it to this mixture as a filler. Next time, I'll use piracetam + choline as the filler, which I expect will actually DO something.

I know about the afternoon sleepiness. To counteract that I take a 350mg Jarrow NALT and a 200mg caffeine pill about 2pm everyday and I'm golden.

So do you alternate the above combo with the acetyl l-tyrosine?

EDIT: Sorry, I was thinking NALT was an acronym for another supplement lol. Doh! Anyways, I've tried the same thing just before lunch and it poops out by 2:30 so I'm going to begin and take it around 1:30-2pm. Seems to work as that needed pick me up. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited by xsiv1, 21 March 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[norepinephrine]

Redan - having taken a break from CILTEP and recently acquiring some Adderall - both IR and XR - for study purposes, I think I can give you a comparative account.

With CILTEP, the stimulating effects are typically shorter, especially the peak - wherein I'm tunneled-in on one thing, focused and motivated to do a task from initiation to completion. Redosing forskolin in the afternoon has never helped me, though redosing caffeine has - though with the side effect of lost sleep, which can lead to a nasty spiral if you continually rely on the stack on a daily basis.

At the same time, Adderall, with the exception of initial onset of effects, has the effect of blunting away my social abilities. It's not so much that I don't want to socialize - but I'm merely interested in conversation pertaining directly to whatever I've been working on academically (in this case, math/economics). With CILTEP, I've noticed almost none of this, and in fact have found the opposite - I'm very sociable, outgoing, interested in small-talk and extended conversations alike.

As far as actual work output, I unfortunately have not found anything really outcompete Adderall XR - the amount of things you can accomplish in a day is pretty unreal compared to other chemical means, and if not for the side effects encountered, I'd be way too likely to take it daily. I suspect that the only real way to that kind of output achieved would be via careful self-discipline, developing proper work habits, and alternating between periods of total concentration and total relaxation. (Much more appealing in the long-term, though tough to aspire to when you have an impending exam and limited time.) This is not to say CILTEP doesn't enhance my productivity - it certainly does, and more so than caffeine or LPA alone, but the effects are shorter, typically less predictable, and requirer a bit more planning and discipline to take advantage of the window of time where you'll be at your best. Actually, the predictable-factor is also fairly prominent too - with Adderall, until tolerance hits, you have a pretty binary, defined relationship between cause and effect. With CILTEP, even keeping my espresso/tea consumption measured and kept consistent, I don't always get the same effects every time. I suspect part of that is due to caffeine tolerance, part is due to my sleep levels and part is due to things like what I've eaten and what else I've taken in addition to CILTEP. (Perhaps some more detailed, rigorous journaling is to be done the next time I trial CILTEP compared to what I've done in the past.)

In terms of memory, recall and actual cognition - I find Adderall to be superior on the short-term basis, at therapeutic doses. This is unfortunate, because I don't really like Adderall much as a drug. I find whatever euphoric effect to be typically undesirable for studying - and as well, do not notice anything euphoric after the first dose upon an extended break away. As well, almost any amount of it, no matter how early in the day I've dosed, is guaranteed to affect my sleep quality. Its dulling effects on my social abilities are broadly undesirable over the long-term, though tolerable a few times a month at best. As an athlete, the side effects typically mean a skipped workout on a day I've taken Adderall, both because I can't muster the appetite to eat a pre-workout meal, and because my physical coordination is handicapped at higher doses. As well, my libido is broadly suppressed. Finally, I've noticed a number of negative gastrointestinal effect.

CILTEP, in contrast, has only the main negative effect of disrupting my sleep quality and duration. It's acceptable for a night or two, but becomes fairly counterproductive if I'm taking it every day - eventually I have to break free from the cycle of crappy sleep/medicating myself with stimulants to make up for it, and accept a few days of lessened productivity and focus in return for a lowered tolerance and renewed ability to sleep. I've also noticed afternoon headaches, especially while working out. Though they're not serious in degree, they do make me suspicious of whatever hepatoxic compounds are present in forskohlii plant besides the active ingredient.

With that said, I really don't think CILTEP is appropriate for daily use without cycling on/off. The compounded effects of regular sleep deprivation have been a pretty strong motivating factor for me to recently take a cold-turkey break from all stimulants, including my daily espresso habit. Sleep is indeed one of the greatest nootropics around, and we're simply lying to ourselves if we are to imagine that any stimulant can be taken daily for the long-term.

[abelard lindsay]

....

With CILTEP, the stimulating effects are typically shorter, especially the peak - wherein I'm tunneled-in on one thing, focused and motivated to do a task from initiation to completion. Redosing forskolin in the afternoon has never helped me, though redosing caffeine has - though with the side effect of lost sleep, which can lead to a nasty spiral if you continually rely on the stack on a daily basis.

...

You don't need to redose forskolin, you need to redose dopamine pre-cursors (e.g L-Phenylalanine, N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine, etc). Redosing Forskolin will just likely increase the duration of Tyrosine Hydroxylase upregulation, causing the lack of dopamine pre-cursors to become even more accute.

At the same time, Adderall, with the exception of initial onset of effects, has the effect of blunting away my social abilities. It's not so much that I don't want to socialize - but I'm merely interested in conversation pertaining directly to whatever I've been working on academically (in this case, math/economics). With CILTEP, I've noticed almost none of this, and in fact have found the opposite - I'm very sociable, outgoing, interested in small-talk and extended conversations alike.

Have you tried a small amount of Adderall (e.g. 5mg) + CILTEP? If you look back in the thread you'll see that ZRBarnes had a good amount of success with this.

CILTEP, in contrast, has only the main negative effect of disrupting my sleep quality and duration. It's acceptable for a night or two, but becomes fairly counterproductive if I'm taking it every day - eventually I have to break free from the cycle of crappy sleep/medicating myself with stimulants to make up for it, and accept a few days of lessened productivity and focus in return for a lowered tolerance and renewed ability to sleep. I've also noticed afternoon headaches, especially while working out. Though they're not serious in degree, they do make me suspicious of whatever hepatoxic compounds are present in forskohlii plant besides the active ingredient.

You should switch to C-Bolic 95% Forskolin and just open the 25mg caps up and measure out small amounts at a 1:30 weight ratio. If you're taking 5mg a day, it will last for a while.

With that said, I really don't think CILTEP is appropriate for daily use without cycling on/off. The compounded effects of regular sleep deprivation have been a pretty strong motivating factor for me to recently take a cold-turkey break from all stimulants, including my daily espresso habit. Sleep is indeed one of the greatest nootropics around, and we're simply lying to ourselves if we are to imagine that any stimulant can be taken daily for the long-term.

I find that GABA is pretty good for sleep problems.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 09 April 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Redan - having taken a break from CILTEP and recently acquiring some Adderall - both IR and XR - for study purposes, I think I can give you a comparative account.

With CILTEP, the stimulating effects are typically shorter, especially the peak - wherein I'm tunneled-in on one thing, focused and motivated to do a task from initiation to completion. Redosing forskolin in the afternoon has never helped me, though redosing caffeine has - though with the side effect of lost sleep, which can lead to a nasty spiral if you continually rely on the stack on a daily basis.

At the same time, Adderall, with the exception of initial onset of effects, has the effect of blunting away my social abilities. It's not so much that I don't want to socialize - but I'm merely interested in conversation pertaining directly to whatever I've been working on academically (in this case, math/economics). With CILTEP, I've noticed almost none of this, and in fact have found the opposite - I'm very sociable, outgoing, interested in small-talk and extended conversations alike.

As far as actual work output, I unfortunately have not found anything really outcompete Adderall XR - the amount of things you can accomplish in a day is pretty unreal compared to other chemical means, and if not for the side effects encountered, I'd be way too likely to take it daily. I suspect that the only real way to that kind of output achieved would be via careful self-discipline, developing proper work habits, and alternating between periods of total concentration and total relaxation. (Much more appealing in the long-term, though tough to aspire to when you have an impending exam and limited time.) This is not to say CILTEP doesn't enhance my productivity - it certainly does, and more so than caffeine or LPA alone, but the effects are shorter, typically less predictable, and requirer a bit more planning and discipline to take advantage of the window of time where you'll be at your best. Actually, the predictable-factor is also fairly prominent too - with Adderall, until tolerance hits, you have a pretty binary, defined relationship between cause and effect. With CILTEP, even keeping my espresso/tea consumption measured and kept consistent, I don't always get the same effects every time. I suspect part of that is due to caffeine tolerance, part is due to my sleep levels and part is due to things like what I've eaten and what else I've taken in addition to CILTEP. (Perhaps some more detailed, rigorous journaling is to be done the next time I trial CILTEP compared to what I've done in the past.)

In terms of memory, recall and actual cognition - I find Adderall to be superior on the short-term basis, at therapeutic doses. This is unfortunate, because I don't really like Adderall much as a drug. I find whatever euphoric effect to be typically undesirable for studying - and as well, do not notice anything euphoric after the first dose upon an extended break away. As well, almost any amount of it, no matter how early in the day I've dosed, is guaranteed to affect my sleep quality. Its dulling effects on my social abilities are broadly undesirable over the long-term, though tolerable a few times a month at best. As an athlete, the side effects typically mean a skipped workout on a day I've taken Adderall, both because I can't muster the appetite to eat a pre-workout meal, and because my physical coordination is handicapped at higher doses. As well, my libido is broadly suppressed. Finally, I've noticed a number of negative gastrointestinal effect.

CILTEP, in contrast, has only the main negative effect of disrupting my sleep quality and duration. It's acceptable for a night or two, but becomes fairly counterproductive if I'm taking it every day - eventually I have to break free from the cycle of crappy sleep/medicating myself with stimulants to make up for it, and accept a few days of lessened productivity and focus in return for a lowered tolerance and renewed ability to sleep. I've also noticed afternoon headaches, especially while working out. Though they're not serious in degree, they do make me suspicious of whatever hepatoxic compounds are present in forskohlii plant besides the active ingredient.

With that said, I really don't think CILTEP is appropriate for daily use without cycling on/off. The compounded effects of regular sleep deprivation have been a pretty strong motivating factor for me to recently take a cold-turkey break from all stimulants, including my daily espresso habit. Sleep is indeed one of the greatest nootropics around, and we're simply lying to ourselves if we are to imagine that any stimulant can be taken daily for the long-term.

Thank you norepinephrine for your post about your experience with the CILEP stack. I'm asking because I've always been afraid of having any sort of psychosis with using any stimulant. I've heard of plenty of such cases happeneing. Anyway, thanks. Might give CILEP a tryout in the future.

[elsargente]

You don't need to redose forskolin, you need to redose dopamine pre-cursors (e.g L-Phenylalanine, N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine, etc). Redosing Forskolin will just likely increase the duration of Tyrosine Hydroxylase upregulation, causing the lack of dopamine pre-cursors to become even more accute.

is there a reason you redose with n-acetyl tyrosine later in the day, as opposed to l-phenylalanine?

I find that GABA is pretty good for sleep problems.

i thought that gaba wasn't very good at crossing the bbb? also, what are your thoughts on 5-htp?

[abelard lindsay]

is there a reason you redose with n-acetyl tyrosine later in the day, as opposed to l-phenylalanine?

L-Phenylalanine didn't work as well as I suspect the dopamine metabolism is revved up and it takes too long to convert from L-Phenylalanine to L-Tyrosine to really work well.

i thought that gaba wasn't very good at crossing the bbb? also, what are your thoughts on 5-htp?

It isn't, that's why it's not phenibut. I find, at least for me, while milder, it is more sustainable and not addictive as a sleep aid.

[xsiv1]

After taking weekends off from the CILTEP stack, I find it makes for a wonderful Monday morning pow. By Friday, I'm considering using a racetam and this may have more to do with my dose of Coleus at 10mgs. Thus far, it's perhaps the best Bang for the Buck nootropic stack I've come across that's available legally. For me, short little breaks always bring the bang back when I need it at the start of the work week. I like the fact that I'm a bit more social too. Also, when I take my acetyl l-tyrosine in the afternoon, I normally also take a smaller dose of a B/C vitamin complex. There's one called Stress B that contains smallish doses of the B's with around 500mgs of C. . Otherwise, when I take my stack first thing in the morning, I'll normally take it just about 20 minutes before my Multi Vitamin/Mineral, B & C to ensure that the B6, B9, C and Copper are there for optimal absorption of the tyrosine. Works like a charm.

Edited by xsiv1, 21 March 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Dissolvedissolve]

It isn't, that's why it's not phenibut. I find, at least for me, while milder, it is more sustainable and not addictive as a sleep aid.

Any reason why your prefer GABA to low-dose melatonin? I find 500-1000 mcg melatonin allows me to sleep well after a day of caffeine or modafinil. Also, excess GABAergic activity can impair sleep quality, and, as far as I know, melatonin has no such risk. Also, there's virtually zero tolerance or dependence with melatonin.

[peakplasma]

L-Phenylalanine didn't work as well as I suspect the dopamine metabolism is revved up and it takes too long to convert from L-Phenylalanine to L-Tyrosine to really work well.

Strangely, I get really drowsy for about ~30min-1hr after I take L-Phenylalanine any idea why?

In other news, I tried ~6mg forskolin with 150mg Kanna today.

I must say it felt very nice and was more stimulating than artichoke; however, I have a very analytical job and I found myself a little bit spaced out - it kinda gets you high in a very subtle way - so i did not enjoy that side effect.

Is Kanna a stronger PDE4 inhibitor than Luteolin? Does anyone have the numbers handy?

Nevertheless, I will try 75mg of Kanna tomorrow and report back.

Edited by peakplasma, 21 March 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

It isn't, that's why it's not phenibut. I find, at least for me, while milder, it is more sustainable and not addictive as a sleep aid.

Any reason why your prefer GABA to low-dose melatonin? I find 500-1000 mcg melatonin allows me to sleep well after a day of caffeine or modafinil. Also, excess GABAergic activity can impair sleep quality, and, as far as I know, melatonin has no such risk. Also, there's virtually zero tolerance or dependence with melatonin.

I've had some bad experiences with Quercetin and Hesperidin and though the effects wore off, I found that if I took GABA, it really helped me get back to feeling relaxed quickly. I've used melatonin in the past but developed some tolerance to its effects. I also don't like that the dosages are 3mg or higher in most preparations, which is way too much, IMHO.

[abelard lindsay]

L-Phenylalanine didn't work as well as I suspect the dopamine metabolism is revved up and it takes too long to convert from L-Phenylalanine to L-Tyrosine to really work well.

Strangely, I get really drowsy for about ~30min-1hr after I take L-Phenylalanine any idea why?

In other news, I tried ~6mg forskolin with 150mg Kanna today.

I must say it felt very nice and was more stimulating than artichoke; however, I have a very analytical job and I found myself a little bit spaced out - it kinda gets you high in a very subtle way - so i did not enjoy that side effect.

Is Kanna a stronger PDE4 inhibitor than Luteolin? Does anyone have the numbers handy?

Nevertheless, I will try 75mg of Kanna tomorrow and report back.

Kanna is a much stronger and more specific PDE4 inhibitor than Luteolin. What you describe as the "high feeling" is likely because Kanna has SSRI like properties:

The extract was a potent blocker in 5-HT transporter binding assays (IC(50) 4.3 μg/ml) and had powerful inhibitory effects on phosphodiesterase 4 (PDE4) (IC(50) 8.5 μg/ml), but not other phosphodiesterases. There were no cytotoxic effects. Mesembrine was the most active alkaloid against the 5-HT transporter (K(i) 1.4 nM), while mesembrenone was active against the 5-HT transporter and PDE4 (IC(50)'s<1 μM).

The PDE4 IC50 less than 1uM is why I'm investigating it. The studies done on the Zembrin™ extract of Kanna show that in lab tests it completely inhibited PDE4!

Another interesting thing about Kanna is that the two times I took it I got my highest scores ever on Cambridge Brain Science's "Odd One Out" and "Polygons" tests. I have done these two tests many times so I was startled as I suddenly became significantly better at them. I was unable to replicate these scores at a later time. I scored within my standard range with the regular stack. It was weird because with "Odd One Out", you'd think I would have gotten the strategy for the higher levels memorized after getting a high score once but the solutions to the puzzles just didn't come to me.

At times while taking Kanna and scoring better it seemed that the background processing of my brain was giving me the answers and it skipped a few conscious steps to get there. This is one of the few times, if not the first time, I've really seen a fluid intelligence boost with that much significance. Unfortunately, it was a very short term effect, maybe lasting an hour or so. The second time I combined it with my regular stack and tied my high score on paired associates and got one point less than my high score on Odd One Out.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 March 2013 - 12:39 AM.

[peakplasma]

Yeah I'm supposed to be a cold, heartless analyst so all this serotonin-induced empathy is alien to me. I don't know this feel.

[Reformed-Redan]

It might be better to use the unfermented kanna for the PDE4 properties. Otherwise get Zembrin which a little on the pricy side. I'm thinking that the tired and sluggist feeling might be because of depleted ATP levels after high concentrations of cAMP during the stack. It can't hurt to cosupplement with creatine monohydrate to keep ATP levels stable and high. Could give a more leveld/focused feeling to the CILEP stack.

This could be of interest:
http://jtoomim.org/f...lementation.pdf

The results across the five cognitive tasks were generallyconsistent. CEE seemed to improve performance inseveral domains, from tasks that had a strong memorycomponent to tests of attention. Improvements werefound consistently for reaction time across measures aswell as for some measures of accuracy. This indicates thatcreatine supplementation seems to improve basic cogni-tive functions in particular.This improvement in performance was similar to theincreases reported by Raeet al.(2003) in their study using creatine monohydrate. In this study, in three of five tasks– Memory Scanning, Arrow Flankers and Raven’s Matrices– CEE supplementation significantly improved reactiontime performance when compared with the placebogroup. The measure of general intelligence used in thisstudy involves global cognitive functioning, includingmental rotation skills, decisiveness in stimulus elimination,critical thinking, working memory and logical deduction.Performance in this task also increased in the creatinegroup when compared with the placebo group, althoughpart of this increase was because of a lower baseline scorein the creatine group.The Number-Pair Matching and Sustained Attentiontasks showed more modest improvements than othermeasures, perhaps because they required less cognitiveprocessing. For example, the Ravens Matrices require thecoordination of a range of cognitive abilities to solve eachmatrix. Generally, creatine acts as a ‘backup energy store’second to the ATP cycles that all cells use. In tasks thatrequire less demanding cognitive processing, neuronsmay rely only on ATP energy cycles, whereas when ahighly demanding task is initiated, activation will be morewidespread leading to greater demand for energy. It isin such conditions that creatine supplementation couldperhaps aid cognitive ability the most, that is, whenperforming highly complex cognitive tasks that drawupon global cognitive functioning. This is a conjecturethat requires further examination.This study has shown that CEE may be as effective ascreatine monohydrate in improving cognitive perfor-mance, although this requires explicit testing and areplication of this study, with the addition of a creatinemonohydrate group. Some caution with interpretationis therefore warranted, as particularly for the IQ data,the creatinine group was lower at baseline and thus hadmore scope for improvement. This does not minimize theresult – the fact is that this group did respond withimprovement over the course of the study on manymeasures – but this is a limitation of our study asimprovements from a higher baseline may be harder toachieve. Participants in both conditions were asked tokeep a written diary of how alert they felt. Neither groupreported side effects of the supplements, and those inthe creatine group gave anecdotal reports of improved cognitive function and reduced experiences of fatigue.Such subjective evidence requires further investigationHowever, such reports, in addition to the quantitativeresults, support earlier research that has found positivecorrelations between brain creatine levels and recognitionmemory (Ferrieret al., 2001) and that creatine supple-mentation can reduce mental fatigue (Watanabeet al., 2002).In conclusion, the data show that cognitive ability seemsto be improved by CEE supplementation. Although webelieve these results are robust, they require replication,preferably using blood glucose testing as an objectivemeasure of compliance. Should these results be repli-cated, an important next step would be to examine theimpact of creatine supplementation over a longer dosingperiod at the same time as using food diaries, to excludethe possibility that creatine supplementation mightmerely have been redressing nutritional imbalances

Edited by redan, 22 March 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[peakplasma]

I do already take Creatine daily.