2626 replies to this topic

[xsiv1]

Hell yeah!

lol. What's the "hawthorn berry/cissus quadrangularis/enbosarm" part of the stack for?

[nuc]

hawthorn berry is used to lower blood pressure when taking supplements or medication that has the potential to raise it.

i use cissus and enobosarm to prevent any interference from physical stress, injuries, pain, intense pressure while on the nootropic stack.

Edited by nuc, 14 September 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Judd Crane]

Can Zembrin be taken in the evening without sleep issues?

Has anyone tried any alternative ways of ingesting Zembrin e.g smoking or insufflating? I know this can be done with Kanna.

[chung_pao]

Can Zembrin be taken in the evening without sleep issues?

Has anyone tried any alternative ways of ingesting Zembrin e.g smoking or insufflating? I know this can be done with Kanna.

Why'd you want to? It's absorbed perfectly from the capsules. The study indicating its' PDE4 inhibition also used the same product.

Myself I discontinued Zembrin use because of the Serotonergic effect and subsequently elevated prolactin. This also lead to elevations in estrogen. Made me feel way too silly.

[Judd Crane]

Can Zembrin be taken in the evening without sleep issues?

Has anyone tried any alternative ways of ingesting Zembrin e.g smoking or insufflating? I know this can be done with Kanna.

Why'd you want to? It's absorbed perfectly from the capsules. The study indicating its' PDE4 inhibition also used the same product.

Myself I discontinued Zembrin use because of the Serotonergic effect and subsequently elevated prolactin. This also lead to elevations in estrogen. Made me feel way too silly.

Just curious for recreational purposes

Thank you for bringing the connection between serotonin and prolactin/estrogen to my attention. You've quit Bacopa aswell for this reason?

[darejz00]

Could there be any synergistic benefits from adding creatine to this stack?

Edited by darejz00, 14 September 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[chung_pao]

Creatine should be very beneficial for cognition and general protection of your precious dopamine neurons, if you're deficient.
When I first started dosing creatine, it was like a 10-15% boost in intelligence and an even bigger effect on muscular performance.
If you're deficient, it'll benefit you whether or not you take CILTEP.

Judd Crane: Yeah. For me, bacopa didn't offer a lot of benefits. It gave me very lucid dreams though! (even when taken 5h before bed)

*I've also been experimenting a bit with this stack and have found a sustainable program that has incredible effects.
I've taken CILTEP for at least 6 months now, and this "prescription" has produced the best results so far:

1) At wake up: 10 mg Active Forskolin extract, 1x500mg Artichoke extract, 50 mg Modafinil.
ALCAR and caffeine are optional. I also take a very short cold shower after dosing the above, because of the immediate alertness it provides.
2) Before bed: 3-5 whole eggs, 15g saturated dairy-fat (from butter or cheese; pref grass-fed).

Both elements are essential. Especially the fats before bed. They are what enable Modafinil to be included in the stack, regularly.
If I don't eat those exact foods before going to sleep when using Modafinil, I'm guaranteed wake up with a grinding migraine.

The addition of modafinil potentiates the stack due to many different, even unknown mechanisms. My hypothesis is secondary dopamine-reuptake and release, among other things.
The resultant effects are very distinguishable however: The bulletproof confidence of a fighter-pilot, as close to perfect recall of studied information, and a focus that's annoyingly persistent. It makes studying ridiculously easy and fun. The confidence part is also completely absurd, perceived as a complete absence of negative emotion and self-consciousness.

But still... I won't be using the Modafinil addition daily. The effects are too mind-altering and puts you in almost a 12 hour trance where you can't "zoom out" and actually consider what you need to do. Very robotic, but awesome for the purposes of this stack: To promote LTP and memorize information.

Edited by chung_pao, 14 September 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

I think I found another clue to the Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) / cAMP relationship

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10869820

Different transcription elements have been proposed to play a role in the regulation ofacetylcholinesterase (AChE) in muscle and neuron, and cyclic adenosine 3',5'-monophosphate (cAMP)-dependent pathway is one of them
...
These results support the involvement of a cAMP-dependent pathway in regulating the expression of human AChE.

So more or less the theory is is that, cAMP, through activation of some transcriptional factor (CREB perhaps) is upregulating AChE. CREB we know increases transcription of proteins in the cell supporting Long Term Potentiation (LTP) through epigenetic activity, which should be good for cognition, but it also helps to increase transcription of AChE in the package so it would help to keep AChE under control with AChE inhibitors or more choline in order to avoid getting sleepy.

I took the Tulip,Uridine, and CILTEP stack today all together and boy was I sleepy even with a good amount of acetyl-l-carnitine until I took a galantamine. Now my brain seems to be firing on all cylinders. Got some good scores on cambridgebrainsciences except for paired associates which was my average.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 15 September 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[lostfalco]

I think I found another clue to the Acetylcholinesterase (AChE) / cAMP relationship

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10869820

Different transcription elements have been proposed to play a role in the regulation ofacetylcholinesterase (AChE) in muscle and neuron, and cyclic adenosine 3',5'-monophosphate (cAMP)-dependent pathway is one of them
...
These results support the involvement of a cAMP-dependent pathway in regulating the exp<b></b>ression of human AChE.

So more or less the theory is is that, cAMP, through activation of some transcriptional factor (CREB perhaps) is upregulating AChE. CREB we know increases transcription of proteins in the cell supporting Long Term Potentiation (LTP) through epigenetic activity, which should be good for cognition, but it also helps to increase transcription of AChE in the package so it would help to keep AChE under control with AChE inhibitors or more choline in order to avoid getting sleepy.

I took the Tulip,Uridine, and CILTEP stack today all together and boy was I sleepy even with a good amount of acetyl-l-carnitine until I took a galantamine. Now my brain seems to be firing on all cylinders again.

And.... I just scored 22 on odd-one-out and 32 on grammatical reasoning on cambridgebrainsciences

Very cool Abelard! So glad you're experimenting with this. What did you decide about forskolin with TULIP?

[abelard lindsay]

Very cool Abelard! So glad you're experimenting with this. What did you decide about forskolin with TULIP?

My opinion is that forskolin just magnifies and prolongs CREB transcription of genes in the mitochondria which is where TULIP increases activity. This is a good thing but the increased ACHe transcription in the nucleus has to be counteracted to avoid sleepiness. I suspect sleepiness shouldn't happen with TULIP alone as, unless I overlooked something, ACHE isn't produced in the mitochondria.

I found a interesting paper on ACHe transcription. It is mediated by ELK-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15258260

This was shown to arise from AChE promoter activation, mediated by activation of the transcription factor Elk-1.

ELK-1 is activated by cAMP
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9094716

We show here that cAMP can activate the transcription factor Elk-1 and induce neuronal differentiation of PC12 cells via its activation of the MAP kinase cascade

Edited by abelard lindsay, 15 September 2013 - 03:09 AM.

[Amby]

Just double checking though with abelard's latest update including ALCAR in the morning with the stack, does this mean Phenylalanine is still required? I'm cool either way, just want to do the right thing.

Any further thoughts on this bit of my query?

I'm also taking the PAGG stack and Cissus Quadrangularis, both promoted by Tim Ferriss for fat loss. Seeing he's a big fan of Abelard's artichoke and forksolin stack I'm guessing there must be no issues.

Thanks again all!

[Potent]

Just double checking though with abelard's latest update including ALCAR in the morning with the stack, does this mean Phenylalanine is still required? I'm cool either way, just want to do the right thing.

Any further thoughts on this bit of my query?

I'm also taking the PAGG stack and Cissus Quadrangularis, both promoted by Tim Ferriss for fat loss. Seeing he's a big fan of Abelard's artichoke and forksolin stack I'm guessing there must be no issues.

Thanks again all!

The stack is experimental, and as with all nootropic stacks, needs to be tweaked to personal preference. I've enjoyed CILTEP with Phe, but noticed that Phe was anxiogenic in certain circumstances. So now I CILTEP without Phe.

Bottom line is basic CILTEP stack = 5 mg Forskolin, 600 mg Artichoke. Those two are required. Caffeine also seems essential to me. Tweak to your preference, ALCAR, Phe, NAC, Zembrin, anything else can be added based on how you feel. Hope that helps.

[Potent]

Very cool Abelard! So glad you're experimenting with this. What did you decide about forskolin with TULIP?

My opinion is that forskolin just magnifies and prolongs CREB transcription of genes in the mitochondria which is where TULIP increases activity. This is a good thing but the increased ACHe transcription in the nucleus has to be counteracted to avoid sleepiness. I suspect sleepiness shouldn't happen with TULIP alone as, unless I overlooked something, ACHE isn't produced in the mitochondria.

I found a interesting paper on ACHe transcription. It is mediated by ELK-1
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15258260

This was shown to arise from AChE promoter activation, mediated by activation of the transcription factor Elk-1.

ELK-1 is activated by cAMP
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9094716

We show here that cAMP can activate the transcription factor Elk-1 and induce neuronal differentiation of PC12 cells via its activation of the MAP kinase cascade

This is interesting. If all the excess cAMP we are getting from daily CILTEP use is indeed upregulating AChE, you would think that at some point it would have a negative impact on memory - or maybe just responsible for the deficit to working memory.

Edited by Potent, 15 September 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Sholrak]

Just double checking though with abelard's latest update including ALCAR in the morning with the stack, does this mean Phenylalanine is still required? I'm cool either way, just want to do the right thing.

Any further thoughts on this bit of my query?

I'm also taking the PAGG stack and Cissus Quadrangularis, both promoted by Tim Ferriss for fat loss. Seeing he's a big fan of Abelard's artichoke and forksolin stack I'm guessing there must be no issues.

Thanks again all!

The stack is experimental, and as with all nootropic stacks, needs to be tweaked to personal preference. I've enjoyed CILTEP with Phe, but noticed that Phe was anxiogenic in certain circumstances. So now I CILTEP without Phe.

Bottom line is basic CILTEP stack = 5 mg Forskolin, 600 mg Artichoke. Those two are required. Caffeine also seems essential to me. Tweak to your preference, ALCAR, Phe, NAC, Zembrin, anything else can be added based on how you feel. Hope that helps.

I noticed anxiety while on phe, very apreciable. I have not taken phe today and I feel totallly awesome. This LTP seems amazing to me. It has the contra of being detrimental to working-memory (only while on it) . But long term it's obviously good for short-term memory. I had a strong experience yesterday. I experienced a kiind of déjà vus in which I basically recovered all my entire long long term memory. This stack (with or without ALCAR) does wonders. I got a lot of energy and pre-disposition to almost everything. I have started to recover one sensation from my childhood but I don't know how to explain it. A kind of coherence and fullfiling. I also notice a good motivational, physical, and moodly enhancement. Sometimes it makes anxiety high but only while you use it. It may be even better in language improving than Cerebrolysin. I have been fluent and spontaneous, It may be due in part to ALCAR but ciltep cummulates over the time, I'm getting more and more LTP and that is changing all things drastically. I have to say I love it and that it takes lots of energy and mood cycles are accelerated (you pass your day running mentally and knowing how to orientate goals,actions and words. I also believe I'm bettter lying now hahaha (this is curious thing) . I seem to just being able to move on despite what's happening.


I'm theorizing how would be using Cerebrolysin as a corrector of CILTEP defects. It could take the place of ALCAR's position in the stack and make it even better. ALCAR seems to make me loss more hair or something, and sometimes I get a mental rush hard to stop. Don't get me wrong, ALCAR is probably in my third position ranking of better nootropics. Cere and Ciltep would work fine together. They would accelerate each other. Now I look, Ciltep and Cere are like in one opposite extreme each one from other, and they're both extremely pleasant. Has anyone tried this combo? It could be the final stack. I spect very good sinergy.

[Amby]

Thanks Potent and Sholrak for your perspectives and experience removing Phenylalanine, and replacing with ALCAR instead with the stack's consumption in the morning.

It sounds promising and I'll probably buy my supplements online in the next day or two, so any final comments/thoughts from others would be appreciated :-)

[magta39]

I also find phenylalanine too stimulating, substituting 100mgs theanine works great with the artichoke, forskolin, ALCAR stack (as does piracetam and 2mgs galantamine)

[Sholrak]

I believe Phe is necessary to commplete the study focus enhancement of ciltep. However, for the social and well being quality it's not as needed and makes me less sleepy/liquid mind.

[raincheck]

Creatine should be very beneficial for cognition and general protection of your precious dopamine neurons, if you're deficient.
When I first started dosing creatine, it was like a 10-15% boost in intelligence and an even bigger effect on muscular performance.
If you're deficient, it'll benefit you whether or not you take CILTEP.

Judd Crane: Yeah. For me, bacopa didn't offer a lot of benefits. It gave me very lucid dreams though! (even when taken 5h before bed)

*I've also been experimenting a bit with this stack and have found a sustainable program that has incredible effects.
I've taken CILTEP for at least 6 months now, and this "prescription" has produced the best results so far:

1) At wake up: 10 mg Active Forskolin extract, 1x500mg Artichoke extract, 50 mg Modafinil.
ALCAR and caffeine are optional. I also take a very short cold shower after dosing the above, because of the immediate alertness it provides.
2) Before bed: 3-5 whole eggs, 15g saturated dairy-fat (from butter or cheese; pref grass-fed).

Both elements are essential. Especially the fats before bed. They are what enable Modafinil to be included in the stack, regularly.
If I don't eat those exact foods before going to sleep when using Modafinil, I'm guaranteed wake up with a grinding migraine.

The addition of modafinil potentiates the stack due to many different, even unknown mechanisms. My hypothesis is secondary dopamine-reuptake and release, among other things.
The resultant effects are very distinguishable however: The bulletproof confidence of a fighter-pilot, as close to perfect recall of studied information, and a focus that's annoyingly persistent. It makes studying ridiculously easy and fun. The confidence part is also completely absurd, perceived as a complete absence of negative emotion and self-consciousness.

But still... I won't be using the Modafinil addition daily. The effects are too mind-altering and puts you in almost a 12 hour trance where you can't "zoom out" and actually consider what you need to do. Very robotic, but awesome for the purposes of this stack: To promote LTP and memorize information.

I've been reading and following this thread since the beginning and appreciate the community contributing useful data into the thread. I've been using Ciltep in different variations, this one Chung Pao posted did not have any effect on me whatsoever. I am curious, was the recommended forskolin dosage based on the 95% Cbolic extract ? Are you skipping breakfast and insuling spiking stimulus?

Here is my current stack I do not take it regularly.

• 2x450 mg Now Artichoke Extract.
• 4mg of Forskolin Better Body Sports 95% pure C-Bolic capsules
• 500mg Phenylalanine
• 1/2 dose B-Vitamin Complex (life source naturals Coenzymated B-complex, contains NADH, P5p and many other essentials)
• 900-1000 mg ALCAR (primaforce)
• 1g Creatine HCI
• 350 - 500mg Bulk N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine (occasionally to boost my energy when my brain gets saturated.)

Not part of the stack occasionally I take:

• Life force naturals Mens multivitamin
• Curcumin/Bioperine bulk mix
• Modafinil
• Ginkgo
• Gotu Kola
• Piriacetam, Oxiracetam
• Agmatine
• Beta Alanine
• DAA (discontinued because of the negative correlations posted in this thread)
• Citruline Malate
• Various BCAA

I workout using HIIT with body weight work outs and feel no positive effects from this stack. However after more steady (but not regular) dosing I notice definite increased LTP. I am a student and work at a retail cellphone store.

I wish the stack had more effect on my social edginess as someone mentioned in this thread but it does not (phenylpiracetam is too expensive for regular use, I cannot justify its purchase).

Just wanted to post my results as testimony and drive more conversation, I hope to get some feedback as well.

Thanks!

Edited by raincheck, 19 September 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

I've been reading and following this thread since the beginning and appreciate the community contributing useful data into the thread. I've been using Ciltep in different variations, this one Chung Pao posted did not have any effect on me whatsoever. I am curious, was the recommended forskolin dosage based on the 95% Cbolic extract ? Are you skipping breakfast and insuling spiking stimulus?

Here is my current stack I do not take it regularly.

• 2x450 mg Now Artichoke Extract.
• 4mg of Forskolin Better Body Sports 95% pure C-Bolic capsules
• 500mg Phenylalanine
• 1/2 dose B-Vitamin Complex (life source naturals Coenzymated B-complex, contains NADH, P5p and many other essentials)
• 900-1000 mg ALCAR (primaforce)
• 1g Creatine HCI
• 350 - 500mg Bulk N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine (occasionally to boost my energy when my brain gets saturated.)

...

I workout using HIIT with body weight work outs and feel no positive effects from this stack. However after more steady (but not regular) dosing I notice definite increased LTP. I am a student and work at a retail cellphone store.

...

Just wanted to post my results as testimony and drive more conversation, I hope to get some feedback as well.

Thanks!

That looks pretty good but just to clear up any confusion:

The Better Body Sports Forskolin caps contain 25mg of forskolin and a couple hundred mg of inert filler. So, if you emptied a capsule out and got 500mg of material for example, to get 4mg you would weigh out 4/25 of that or 80mg of that material.

LTP, which CILTEP is theorized to work on, is downstream from NMDA/AMPA signalling which occurs in the synaptic cleft. It could be possible, in theory, that non response to CILTEP could be due to a deficiency in signalling in general in the synaptic cleft.

Magnesium-L-Threonate has shown some clinical evidence in being able to aid in the development this synaptic signalling mechanism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20152124

Here, we show that increasing brain magnesium using a newly developed magnesium compound (magnesium-L-threonate, MgT) leads to the enhancement of learning abilities, working memory, and short- and long-term memory in rats. The pattern completion ability was also improved in aged rats. MgT-treated rats had higher density of synaptophysin-/synaptobrevin-positive puncta in DG and CA1 subregions of hippocampus that were correlated with memory improvement. Functionally, magnesium increased the number of functional presynaptic release sites, while it reduced their release probability.
The resultant synaptic reconfiguration enabled selective enhancement of synaptic transmission for burst inputs. Coupled with concurrent upregulation of NR2B-containing NMDA receptors and its downstream signaling, synaptic plasticity induced by correlated inputs was enhanced.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 September 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[cylack]

I found a good journal that is relevant to what we're all interested in. It's called the Neurobiology of Learning and Memory. It has some free open access articles, while most are abstracts and you have to pay if you want full access: http://www.journals....ing-and-memory/

[raincheck]

That looks pretty good but just to clear up any confusion:

The Better Body Sports Forskolin caps contain 25mg of forskolin and a couple hundred mg of inert filler. So, if you emptied a capsule out and got 500mg of material for example, to get 5mg you would weigh out 4/25 of that or 80mg of that material.

LTP, which CILTEP is theorized to work on, is downstream from NMDA/AMPA signalling which occurs in the synaptic cleft. It could be possible, in theory, that non response to CILTEP could be due to a deficiency in signalling in general in the synaptic cleft.

Magnesium-L-Threonate has shown some clinical evidence in being able to aid in the development this synaptic signalling mechanism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20152124

Here, we show that increasing brain magnesium using a newly developed magnesium compound (magnesium-L-threonate, MgT) leads to the enhancement of learning abilities, working memory, and short- and long-term memory in rats. The pattern completion ability was also improved in aged rats. MgT-treated rats had higher density of synaptophysin-/synaptobrevin-positive puncta in DG and CA1 subregions of hippocampus that were correlated with memory improvement. Functionally, magnesium increased the number of functional presynaptic release sites, while it reduced their release probability.
The resultant synaptic reconfiguration enabled selective enhancement of synaptic transmission for burst inputs. Coupled with concurrent upregulation of NR2B-containing NMDA receptors and its downstream signaling, synaptic plasticity induced by correlated inputs was enhanced.

I am honored that you replied to my post! I am not following your math, did you mean to say 5/25 or 100 mg of total C-Bolic material? I have definitely been underdosing, I only recently switched to C-Bolic from Soloray so its no wonder why I haven't felt noticeable effects. I'll start with the recommended 4 mg dosing procedure as you outlined in the first page of this thread and see how it goes.

I was taking Magnesium Theonate for sometime but I didn't understand the effects fully. There was a huge digression into Magnesium supplementation and the importance of Magnesium Theonate and its BBB crossing abilities were washed out.

Again appreciate the input,

[abelard lindsay]

I am honored that you replied to my post! I am not following your math, did you mean to say 5/25 or 100 mg of total C-Bolic material?

Yeah I used 4/25 to match my 4mg recommendation on the first post but didn't change the earlier term to 4mg. Thanks for pointing that out.

I only recently switched to C-Bolic from Soloray so its no wonder why I haven't felt noticeable effects. I'll start with the recommended 4 mg dosing procedure as you outlined in the first page of this thread and see how it goes.
I was taking Magnesium Theonate for sometime but I didn't understand the effects fully. There was a huge digression into Magnesium supplementation and the importance of Magnesium Theonate and its BBB crossing abilities were washed out.
Again appreciate the input,

I find MgT is great as a sleep aid too. It's also good as an anti-excitotoxic and helped me get back to normal after a somewhat negative experience with Sunifram.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 September 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[darejz00]

I wonder how long we have to wait for someone to put this beauty in a capsule and wholesale, I can't be the only one wishing to have this combination in one capsule....

[xsiv1]

I'm going to guess there are people already throwing it in to some sort of nootropic blend they'll be coming out with. It'll probably fall under the auspices of the ever popular "proprietary blend" portion of the label. I of course, would have nothing to do with it. I already have a career and family that takes up most of my time. Aside, from riding this stationary bike, my internet travels are mostly limited to after 8:30 or during slow times at work. (ok, sometimes even busy times heh) Anyways, I'm not sure if I did this stack and Abelard justice in a recently posted thread on nootropics at Reddit. Seems to me it'd get more interest, but perhaps I didn't explain it well enough when asked about one's experience with it : http://www.reddit.co...re_done_ciltep/

Edited by xsiv1, 20 September 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[maxwatt]

There are contract manufacturers who will source it and cap it, minimum order is usually 50,000 capsules. They'll bottle and label it to meed FDA regs, and even do label artwork for additional fee.
Do we have a general consensus what the content should be? I can price it with no commitment if people are curious.

[darejz00]

Someone should start a poll on this, although I think Abelard and some of the other more experience CILTEP users should have a bigger say in the final combination. My humble opinion would be not to go overboard and keep it simple: ALCAR, Forskolin and Artichoke extract. Possibly add caffeine or NALT, negatives being that I think people would rather drink their coffee and I'm not sure if the NALT is a stable ingredient in this combination. Anyways let's get it done!

[acrunchyfrog]

I purchased Artichoke extract today and will put my racetams aside for a week to give this a whirl. The rest of the stack I happened to have on hand, in the form of L-Tyrosine , bulk ALCAR and some of Nutraplanet's high-concentrate Forskolin (98% or so). I had already diluted and blended the forskolin with some BCAAs to get the amount that people were taking for a testosterone boost (30mg) into a single cap. I may elect to pull them and recap them in a smaller dose, but time is short and that seems like a PITA. I also take Adderall 10mg TID, but I'm so stim insensitive, I'd actually prefer if the Forskolin sensitized me to them again.

A couple of questions: Would L-carnitine l-tartrate also work well in the stead of ALCAR? And further, I see people using galantamine to reset if they crash. Anyone using Huperizine A for the same effect? And finally, is anyone using DLPA with this stack?

Edited by acrunchyfrog, 21 September 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

A couple of questions: Would L-carnitine l-tartrate also work well in the stead of ALCAR? And further, I see people using galantamine to reset if they crash. Anyone using Huperizine A for the same effect? And finally, is anyone using DLPA with this stack?

I found that L-Carnitine was largely ineffective in preventing the afternoon sleepiness. I haven't used Huperzine as an ACHE inhibitor lately. Didn't particularly like it when I did use it in the past. In my experiences, DLPA is a bit unpredictable compared to LPA when I took it a few times a long time ago. I haven't ever taken DLPA with the stack.

Here's a negative anecdote w/regards to DLPA + CILTEP : http://www.longecity...action-to-dlpa/

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 September 2013 - 03:28 AM.

[acrunchyfrog]

Thank you, sir! I also uncovered those same anecdotes. I'll see how I tolerate tyrosine for now, and then pick up some F at payday.

[Xenix]

You guys should definitely look into FGL. I just posted a thread on it.