2626 replies to this topic

[Amby]

In the interests of science and the community here, this is first experiences with the CILTEP stack.

Slept badly the night before. Bit of a Christmas Eve moment – you know all excited after my shipment arrived. Got about 5 hours 45 mins sleep instead of my usual 6.5 – 7 hours sleep.

Got up 5:20 am. Warm shower (sorry chung pao!) then had:

- 2x450 mg Now Artichoke Extract.
- Approx 4mg of Forskolin from uncapping and weighing out the correct proportion of Better Body Sports 95% pure C-Bolic capsules (made 6 caps the night before which I estimate are around 3 – 5 mg each – went with an average filled cap for starters)
- 500mg Phenylalanine
- Approx 800mg ALCAR
- 2 cups of coffee from freshly ground beans in my espresso machine.
-Also had 30 mg of whey protein and 5mg of creatine in the protein shake.

I skipped the Vitamin B complex as I’m on the slow carb diet and have lots of meat, vegetables, nuts etc (yes I’m one of those Tim Ferriss devotees that discovered the stack thanks to him raving about it.) Other vitamins taken: Vitamin A, D, Zinc, Magnesium and Calcium.

Felt some slight numbing/tingling sensation in my cheeks within 30 mins of CILTEP stack but not much else until just after 9 am.

Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

Got into work about 9:15 am. I’m in senior management in government and pretty soon the shit started hitting the fan with a briefing document due. I had to synthesize many issues, summarise, analyze and then come up with recommendations. With the help of CILTEP and 4 cups of Yerba Mate tea I swear I sat at my desk for 4 straight hours belting out pretty great stuff with only one 2 minute break for the john. I’m not ADHD but am easily distracted by my “hyperlinking” style mind. So I managed for a prolonged period to keep extreme focus and pump out what was needed. I then had rolling meeting after meeting, before another paper dropped on me from on high. I kept maintaining focus and ploughing through the work until 5:45 pm. This isn’t an ordinary day and normally I don’t think I could’ve as effectively or as well have dealt with the day.

I did notice by about 2pm a slight throbbing in the head (very slight) from presumably all the chemical activity going on and the lack of break. I had no sleepy period thanks to the ALCAR.

I got home about 6:30 pm and managed to smash 3 excellent glasses of red that I needed on two fronts: crappy days like that deserve alcohol and I needed something to hopefully dull my over taxed brain. I did my 3^rd cup of coffee for the day about 8.00 pm as I was flagging.

But the coffee seems to have kicked the brain off again so at 9.30 pm – almost 16 hours after taking the stack – my mind and focus on task is still going strong. Though to be honest I’m getting pretty tired now!

I’ll see how I feel in the morning but I’m thinking of maybe trying a slightly smaller Forskolin cap. I also bought some Panax Ginseng, but might wait for that a little longer. I didn’t get a chance to go to gym today, but hope to do so tomorrow for weights. Similarly while my schedule tomorrow is a little more like an average day and will have some time for project time, so I’m keen to see how the stack works when I’m focused on something I’m more passionate about.

For the record I’m an early 40’s male in pretty good physical shape with no known medical issues.

Hope this info helps others.

[BlueCloud]

Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

You do know that's a science-FICTION movie , not a science documentary , right ? Just like getting stinged by a radioactive spider won't make you able to walk upside down on ceilings.
I don't know why people keep refering to that movie on this forum as if it was an article on NATURE or an abstract on Pubmed or something like that.

Edited by BlueCloud, 10 October 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[chung_pao]

Abelard, are you still using 1:1 of Zembrin and Artichoke?
I get fatigued very early using Artichoke, and require re-dosing of Forskolin to maintain alertness.
I suspect it's because Melatonin is cAMP-dependent, and my PDE-inhibition is too weak.

For the benefit of myself, and all others users of this stack, I think the modification that holds most promise is a Stronger/more specific inhibition of PDE-4 than Artichoke Extract provides. Higher dosing that 2x500 mg has too many side-effects (boners, sedation).

What form of PDE-inhibition have you found to be most effective? Zembrin coupled with Artichoke or the latter stand-alone?

My issue with Zembrin alone is the Serotonergic feel, which definitely makes me less assertive, confident and motivated.
Have you researched it thoroughly enough to conclude that there are no other known, natural PDE-inhibitors than Artichoke and Zembrin?
If you have any leads, I'd be willing to initiate some testing.

Eliminated fatigue completely by applying stronger PDE-inhibition.
Optimal ratio so far: 2-3:1 of Artichoke extract:Zembrin.

The people who are convinced of the efficiency of the mechanism behind CILTEP should really give Zembrin a try, due to its reported Complete inhibition of the desired PDE isoform. For both memory and alertness, this is very effective.

Got up 5:20 am. Warm shower (sorry chung pao!) then had:


Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

You know, that movie was partially inspired by the writer's experiences with modafinil.
However, I'm not recommending that you try it. The combination of addictive potential + side-effects can be very dangerous.
Ciltep is probably more effective for memory and even health purposes anyway.

Edited by chung_pao, 10 October 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Amby]

Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

You do know that's a science-FICTION movie , not a science documentary , right ? Just like getting stinged by a radioactive spider won't make you able to walk upside down on ceilings.
I don't know why people keep refering to that movie on this forum as if it was an article on NATURE or an abstract on Pubmed or something like that.

Dammit, you mean I should stop getting this crazed spider to bite me all the time?

[norepinephrine]

Kassem - the effect of decreased sleep quality/onset has definitely been a reason why I don't dose forskolin+artichoke daily. Even upping my magnesium glycinate doesn't seem to fix the problem.

[Amby]

You know, that movie was partially inspired by the writer's experiences with modafinil.
However, I'm not recommending that you try it. The combination of addictive potential + side-effects can be very dangerous.
Ciltep is probably more effective for memory and even health purposes anyway.

Hi chung pao - yeah I'd read that modafinil was the inspiration for the movie. When I started looking for something that would help improve cognitive function it was my starting point for research, which inevitably discounted it and moved onto here :-)

[xsiv1]

When I first started the stack, I also noticed some fragmented sleep and chalked it up to the time I began with a dopamine precursor. I'd take ZMA before bed anyways, but to no avail. I added a gram of Glycine, and began to sleep soundly. By the second week, I took away the glycine and was able to sleep as if my body had adjusted to CILTEP well enough. It may do the same for others but for those predisposed to the combination, it may not abate without some extra help I suppose. Just from my experience. I use glycine now and again on an empty stomach to solidify my sleep. It didn't really effect my sleep latency though.

[acrunchyfrog]

I thought the SDS podcast with Abelard was great! I'm having great results with Artichoke, CAMP (a concentrated cAMP product from Nutraplanet), L-phenylalanine, Sulbutiamine, and 10 mg of adderall. Anyone else having at luck with adding zembrin in just once or twice a week, say, the day before tests?

How does your stack compare to the "original" CILTEP stack? I'm especially interested if CAMP makes a difference versus the forskolin and the addition of Sulbutiamine.

I'm tried to duplicate the original CILTeP stack exactly, but since I had 25mg caps of the CAMP product from nutraplanet on hand, I decided to try that out first before I spent money on more. Thus far I have noticed the afternoon sleepiness, and I added the ALCAR in just as recommended. The sulbutiamine, to be honest, doesn't seem to do much for me at all. Keep in mind that I happen to be an under-responder when it comes to all things nootropic.

My next little project is to get hold of some bulks and cap it myself, but in the meantime I'm going to get some regular forskolin to try (the CAMP powder I had was a year old), as well as some zembrin.

[kassem23]

Kassem - the effect of decreased sleep quality/onset has definitely been a reason why I don't dose forskolin+artichoke daily. Even upping my magnesium glycinate doesn't seem to fix the problem.

Hmm, interesting. How long did you try continuing dosing, or was the lack of proper sleep too debilitating? Were there any confounding factors? Did you try lowering your dose? Was it artichoke or forskolin?

[Babychris]

anyone is actually taking galatantamine ? I have free caps and I take like 100mcg but I'm not sure this is galatamine, I had 2 caps with no taste and those are very bitter, so it could be some pirytinol I had too. Someone could tell me ?

[magta39]

My galantamine caps each have 4mgs galantamine and 100mgs choline citrate, and 100mgs B5, I open them up and take half with 5mgs forskolin (every other day). The taste is very bitter/sour, but this could be because of the choline citrate or B5....so I am not sure if this helps you.

Edited by magta39, 11 October 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Babychris]

No that's cool thanks for your help! If anyone has pure galantamine that would be better of course.

[abelard lindsay]

I was recently asked about the effect of the stack on histamine receptors and presumably allergies triggerd by such receptors.

I did some research and found that luteolin from artichoke extract has been explored as a treatment for asthma. It has been used for this purpose in Chinese traditional medicine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15931576

We have investigated the mechanisms of action of luteolin, a flavone found in Perilla frutescens, a Chinese herbal medicine for treating asthma.
...
Luteolin concentration-dependently relaxed histamine (30 microM)-, carbachol (0.2 microM)- and KCl (30 mM)-induced precontractions, and inhibited cumulative histamine- and carbachol-induced contractions in a non-competitive manner.

It's main mechanism of action seems to be inhibition of histamine release. There's no evidence that I could find that it acts on histamine receptors directly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10705729

From these results, luteolin inhibited the IgE-mediated biphasic cutaneous reaction mainly by the inhibition of histamine and cytokine release from mast cells, but not through mediator antagonistic effects.

The PDE4 inhibitor roflumilast has been approved to treat inflammatory lung diseases.

In this study patients allergic response to inhaled histamine was reduced by the PDE4 inhibitor roflumilast.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16954654

This pilot study examined the effect of roflumilast on allergen-induced airway hyperresponsiveness (AHR) to histamine challenge and asthmatic response to allergen challenge.
,,,
Patients inhaled histamine in doubling concentrations until attaining a decrease in FEV [mean forced expiratory volume in 1 s](1) of <or=20% (PC(20)FEV(1)).
,,,
Roflumilast significantly attenuated AHR compared with placebo, with a mean change in pre- to postallergen challenge PC(20)FEV(1) ratio of 1.23 +/- 2.75 and 2.51 +/- 2.95 for roflumilast and placebo, respectively (p = 0.002). During the late asthmatic response, roflumilast reduced the mean maximum decrease in FEV(1) from 2 to 9 h after allergen challenge compared with placebo (p = 0.005).

In contrast, modafinil increases the release of histamine in the brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12614915

Modafinil (150 mg/kg, i.p.) increased histamine release by 150% of the basal release.

People on this forum previously have said that the two work well together which is kind of odd since their mechanisms of action seem to counteract each other.

Forskolin also inhibits the release of histamines:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2425602

Forskolin inhibits the release of histamine from human basophils and mast cells.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 13 October 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[Sholrak]

I know LTP was first discovered in rabbit hippocampus. It's exclusively given there, in the hippocampus? Or maybe into other lymbic system structures (amygdala, dentate gyrus...). I say this 'cos, apart from the said benefits of motivation, learning, social, memory... we all know, I'm starting to see how PTSD is starting to dilute. It's not dissapearing but definitely, it's becoming more manageable each day. It's giving me a good approach to trauma issues and is also diminishing the re-flash aspect and the anxiety related to it. Spatial memory is getting better too. ALCAR plays a role in this improvement for sure.


I'm loving this so much.

There's evidence that cAMP levels and PTSD are related

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2821835

Cyclic adenosine 3',5'-monophosphate (cAMP) signal transduction was examined in lymphocytes and platelets obtained from patients with posttraumatic stress disorder. Intact lymphocytes from the posttraumatic patients (N = 10) showed significantly lower basal, isoproterenol-, and forskolin-stimulated cAMP levels than those from 10 healthy control subjects.

cAMP stimulation also increases the sensitivity of glucocorticoid receptors which are involved in PTSD

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21798341

...
Given decreased PKA activity found in patients with major depression, these data suggest that depressed patients may be vulnerable to cytokine effects on GR, and cAMP-PKA agonists may serve to reverse glucocorticoid resistance in patients with depression and increased inflammation.

Stimulation with glucocorticoids has been show to provide benefits to those with PTSD (see below). Making those receptors more sensitive with cAMP-PKA agonists as in the above study would probably help this process.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15677403

Can posttraumatic stress disorder be prevented with glucocorticoids?

The prolonged administration of glucocorticoids (stress doses of hydrocortisone) to critically ill patients resulted in a significant reduction of PTSD symptoms measured after recovery without influencing the number of categories of traumatic memory. This protective effect of cortisol can possibly be explained by a cortisol-induced temporary impairment in traumatic memory retrieval which has previously been demonstrated in both rats and humans. Therefore, stressdoses of hydrocortisone could be useful for prophylaxis and treatment of PTSD.

What a brilliant job, Abelard.

The glucocorticoids sensitivity is curious to me, I had bee taking some during less a week (presc. by my physician, before starting ciltep) and those days things were 'differently better'.

[chris106]

Any good shops where I can get this from in Europe Im tired of this customs shit or waiting 2 months or paying lots of money.

Hallo auch, fellow german customs-hater

Here are my european sources for the stack - not quite as cheap as ordering from the US, but no customs-issues at all!

Artichoke-extract:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item1c29addf57

http://bigvits.co.uk...?pid=269&bid=11

Forskolin:

http://www.ebay.de/i...=item27d92437bb

http://www.ebay.de/i...=item3cd6917295

Can't quite recall where I got my L-Phenylalanine and my Alcar from, but for those it should be way easier to find a cheap european supplier anyways.

Bulkpowders has DL-Phenylalanine for a very good price, though

http://www.bulkpowde...nylalanine.html

By the way - was it discussed in this thread if DLPA can be used instead of L-PA?
I believe it does weaken the impact of stimulants and increases the actions of sedatives - so I guess it might interfere too much with Artichoke-extraxt and Forskolin in unwanted ways?

[BlueCloud]

Well, after almost a week of CILTEP, I think I'm going to give up. I haven't noticed anything anywhere near what some people have described here, in fact nothing at all. I tried a different brand of artichoke extract, higher dosages of both forskolin and artichoke, more caffeine, etc.. I'm just not responding at all.

[Babychris]

Huh just to follow my previous post, I think it was galantamine, indeed I've coupled it yestarday and today with ALCAR, piracetam and CILTEP stack today (and a bit of bacopa and selegiline) and today I can say that I'm really switching from a kind of mania (more of a mixed state nothing really great) with a beautiful depression, i'm kind of delisiunal with the feeling that I'm forgetting everything I learn everyday (I have the most important exam of my life in January one of the hardest of the world) positive point is that this kind of depression is kind of fascnating, I'm a bit content of it. Certainly a way to don't hang my down lol.

My mind is so cycling I begin to trust of bipolarity (in fact I'm always switching between a kind of mania but nothing hyperactive or happy to be in, and a solid anxious depression). I think that real bipolar sufferer should be carefull with CILTEP stack, it's like lithium for me it put me in a bad Zone..
Afobazol helped me right now. I wish I could exit of this infernal circle.

Do you think I should take a load of piracetam to regulate my excessive aCH (I don't know what's the problem to be honest since I just have depression lot of gas as usual and stomach ache) not really a stiffing neck that I feel (when I suspect low ach).

[abelard lindsay]

Do you think I should take a load of piracetam to regulate my excessive aCH (I don't know what's the problem to be honest since I just have depression lot of gas as usual and stomach ache) not really a stiffing neck that I feel (when I suspect low ach).

I got excessive ACH when I took coluracetam and too much galantamine could have the same effect given that it is a strong AChE inhibitor. Here's an earlier thread on dealing with excessive aCH:

http://www.longecity...-acetylcholine/

Edited by abelard lindsay, 13 October 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Babychris]

Mmmm yeah I expected this kind of treatmeant but I guess that I might let my choline-esterase do the job alone.

By the way I'm not really confident about the CILTEP stack since I found it a bit innefective but that's maybe because it's too anxiogenic for my BIG big exam comin in january. But in last try I'm really interested to try with Zembrin (Or kanna is it the same ?)
I was a bit cautious because I don't like to have my emotion blunted by SSRI's Like, but if it can treat depression and anxiety and increasing my capacity to work I'll be the most happy guy who has ever been on earth (or not). But seriously I loose so much time everyday to try to focus, but there is that internal voice, and those feelings huh I guess that Zemrbin could be good. But do you think that CILTEP stack really suit with every mind and every kind of stuff to be done. I mean I think really in a special way, I'm really unlike other people and I tend to react strangely to stuff..
secondly I'm working of very complex physics, chemical and biological stuff including all the Bernoulli stuff Organic chemestry and ALL the molecular mechanism of our body. So I'm really in need to be at the top of myself which is actually not the case. And stuff like modafinil, ritalin really put me in some crazy states...

[jadamgo]

In contrast, modafinil increases the release of histamine in the brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12614915

Modafinil (150 mg/kg, i.p.) increased histamine release by 150% of the basal release.

People on this forum previously have said that the two work well together which is kind of odd since their mechanisms of action seem to counteract each other.

Forskolin also inhibits the release of histamines:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2425602

Forskolin inhibits the release of histamine from human basophils and mast cells.

In the CNS, histamine receptor H1 plays a significant role in alertness and cognition. This is why the old-fashioned antihistamines make people sleepy and foggy-headed, even the ones that don't have any anticholinergic effects at all. Increasing CNS histamine is one of the ways modafinil acts to promote wakefulness.

It's not clear whether or not drugs that inhibit histamine release from immune cells would inhibit histamine release from histaminergic neurons in the brain -- the mechanisms are totally different. Immune cells release histamine in response to chemical antigens, whereas histaminergic neurons release histamine upon electrical depolarization.

[noos]

Which (safe) drug can I use instead of forskolin?

[Nordmann]

Stack still works like a charm! And is great as a preworkout, my sleep schedule is a little different but very manageable

I have a few more questions though.

I ordered some Kanna extract, 25%. I see you Abelard dosed somewhere between 150mg, would this be a a good guideline for this 25:1 extract? I could not find any vendor that sent Zembrin to Norway, so I`ll give Kanna a try.

Recommended Quercetin dosage?

Green Tea extract, EGCG was discussed earlier in this thread, but I scratched my head a little. EGCG good or bad?

Thanks! Keep up the great work!

[acrunchyfrog]

After running through my supply of the 95% forskolin powder (CAMP from nutraplanet), I elected to order a "regular" forskolin product to compare the two. I also ordered a bit of zembrin to try on my study days.

[chung_pao]

Stack still works like a charm! And is great as a preworkout, my sleep schedule is a little different but very manageable

I have a few more questions though.

I ordered some Kanna extract, 25%. I see you Abelard dosed somewhere between 150mg, would this be a a good guideline for this 25:1 extract? I could not find any vendor that sent Zembrin to Norway, so I`ll give Kanna a try.

Recommended Quercetin dosage?

Green Tea extract, EGCG was discussed earlier in this thread, but I scratched my head a little. EGCG good or bad?

Thanks! Keep up the great work!

Iherb doesn't deliver to Norway? They do to Sweden.
I'm asking because I people in this thread having much better experiences with Zembrin (specific product, a standardized extract), rather than Kanna. The effects very supposedly very different from one another, with Kanna being more sedative.

On EGCG: It doesn't have a any significant, positive effect on the stack. Even if dosed at 500 mg (definitely the maximal amount) it doesn't synergize. EGCG at high doses even inhibits LTP very noticeably, due to AMPK.
IMO: Go with 250-350 mg if you want to stabilize blood sugar, and potentially inhibit COMT slightly. But it most likely will inhibit LTP rather than help it.

Edited by chung_pao, 15 October 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Nordmann]

Stack still works like a charm! And is great as a preworkout, my sleep schedule is a little different but very manageable

I have a few more questions though.

I ordered some Kanna extract, 25%. I see you Abelard dosed somewhere between 150mg, would this be a a good guideline for this 25:1 extract? I could not find any vendor that sent Zembrin to Norway, so I`ll give Kanna a try.

Recommended Quercetin dosage?

Green Tea extract, EGCG was discussed earlier in this thread, but I scratched my head a little. EGCG good or bad?

Thanks! Keep up the great work!

Iherb doesn't deliver to Norway? They do to Sweden.
I'm asking because I people in this thread having much better experiences with Zembrin (specific product, a standardized extract), rather than Kanna. The effects very supposedly very different from one another, with Kanna being more sedative.

On EGCG: It doesn't have a any significant, positive effect on the stack. Even if dosed at 500 mg (definitely the maximal amount) it doesn't synergize. EGCG at high doses even inhibits LTP very noticeably, due to AMPK.
IMO: Go with 250-350 mg if you want to stabilize blood sugar, and potentially inhibit COMT slightly. But it most likely will inhibit LTP rather than help it.

Thanks for the Iherb tip, I have been stuck within the world of Ebay for years.
I was afraid the price of the product and shipping would exceed the 200NOK amount, that would lead to a over 100% custom fee. Iherbs shipping fee was surprisingly low and the Source Naturals zembrin was surprisingly cheap.
With Ebay I always asked the seller to write down the price if it exceeded.

Zembrin is now ordered and I won`t be supplementing with EGCG.

Thank you

[machete234]

Any good shops where I can get this from in Europe Im tired of this customs shit or waiting 2 months or paying lots of money.

To rephrase this question: Can anybody tell me where to get the supplements as cheap as possible and from a site within the EU?
What are good brands?
I also would prefer paypal over credit card payment. (Never needed one, dont have one, intend to keep it that way)

[Nordmann]

Any good shops where I can get this from in Europe Im tired of this customs shit or waiting 2 months or paying lots of money.

To rephrase this question: Can anybody tell me where to get the supplements as cheap as possible and from a site within the EU?
What are good brands?
I also would prefer paypal over credit card payment. (Never needed one, dont have one, intend to keep it that way)

Ebay? It has Paypal, just buy from people from UK.

[ken_shiro]

Any good shops where I can get this from in Europe Im tired of this customs shit or waiting 2 months or paying lots of money.

l-phenylalanine powder

https://www.intellim...lalanine-powder


http://www.ebay.co.u...=item19d4584ec5

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cc84e35c0

Edited by ken_shiro, 15 October 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Neal Cullum]

Chung Pao, or anyone for that matter, If i used artichoke extract with Zembrin then what dosages are a good rule of thumb? I've ordered Zembrin because i'm a bit of a depressive person which i think effects my motivation to do anything. The zembrin tablets are 25mg each so maybe 900mg Artichoke extract to 25mg Zembrin?

Is there anything i can take with this to help the effects? I have in my pharmaceutical cupboard:- DL phenylananine, ALCAR, Piracetam, vitamins galore.

[chris106]

To rephrase this question: Can anybody tell me where to get the supplements as cheap as possible and from a site within the EU?
What are good brands?
I also would prefer paypal over credit card payment. (Never needed one, dont have one, intend to keep it that way)

I allready replied to you 2 pages back - weren't the sources cheap enough or did you not see my post?

Just asking because I've been looking real hard, and if anyone finds a better/ cheaper source within the EU, I'd be interested as well.