2626 replies to this topic

[chris106]

I will, by the way start TULIP tomorrow as well. (Im 4 days in with CILTEP ATM). While I have moderate success with CILTEP, I just can't wait to try TULIP.

According to Abelard and Lostfalco both stacks at once could be overkill, specifically Forskolin in combination with TULIP.

Then again I allways underreact to any stack, and since I will take CILTEP in the early morning (as I have till now) and TULIP in the late evening, things might work out... I guess.

I will report back if any significant effect is achieved.

Edited by chris106, 15 October 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[Jochen]

I will, by the way start TULIP tomorrow as well. (Im 4 days in with CILTEP ATM). While I have moderate success with CILTEP, I just can't wait to try TULIP.

According to Abelard and Lostfalco both stacks at once could be overkill, specifically Forskolin in combination with TULIP.

Then again I allways underreact to any stack, and since I will take CILTEP in the early morning (as I have till now) and TULIP in the late evening, things might work out... I guess.

I will report back if any significant effect is achieved.

good luck with that and keep us posted :-)

[chung_pao]

Has anyone here tried Resveratrol (or any other substance, aside from Zembrin or Artichoke) for PDE4-inhibition?

Zembrin is working great for me, but the Serotonin-mediated effect of it is antagonistic to CILTEP, imo. It takes my edge off quite quickly.

Btw, someone please get ahold of this drug! (LTP + Testosterone!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23967182
"A Yeast-Based Chemical Screen Identifies a PDE Inhibitor That Elevates Steroidogenesis in Mouse Leydig Cells via PDE8 and PDE4 Inhibition."

Edited by chung_pao, 16 October 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[noos]

Has anyone here tried Resveratrol (or any other substance, aside from Zembrin or Artichoke) for PDE4-inhibition?

Zembrin is working great for me, but the Serotonin-mediated effect of it is antagonistic to CILTEP, imo. It takes my edge off quite quickly.

Btw, someone please get ahold of this drug! (LTP + Testosterone!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23967182
"A Yeast-Based Chemical Screen Identifies a PDE Inhibitor That Elevates Steroidogenesis in Mouse Leydig Cells via PDE8 and PDE4 Inhibition."

Abelard mentions the serotonine problem here
http://smartdrugsmar...m-potentiation/
so he stays with artichoke, as in the product.

There is a drug, Roflumilast, not sure how it works.

I need a forskolin replacement.

Edited by noos, 16 October 2013 - 08:04 PM.

[Wu Hang]

Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

You do know that's a science-FICTION movie , not a science documentary , right ? Just like getting stinged by a radioactive spider won't make you able to walk upside down on ceilings.
I don't know why people keep refering to that movie on this forum as if it was an article on NATURE or an abstract on Pubmed or something like that.

Well you are lucky that nobody asks why he can't finish an Universtiy program within a night just like the movie portrays.

[BlueCloud]

Well you are lucky that nobody asks why he can't finish an Universtiy program within a night just like the movie portrays.

There are no "limits" to how ridiculous things can get : http://www.longecity...g-ive-seen-yet/

[DivaDev]

I have been using CILTEP with Zembrin for the past two weeks and have been very happy with the improved focus. However, I'm not sure I need the serotogenic component on a daily basis. My emotions seem flattened.

Swanson Vitamins has a new product: Luteolin Complex, 100mg, 30caps, $9.99.

Could 100mg of Luteolin Complex replace 900mg Artichoke dose in CILTEP? Anyone know how much luteolin is in artichoke extract?

Edited by DivaDev, 18 October 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[ken_shiro]

Anyone know how much luteolin is in artichoke extract?

http://examine.com/s...act/#summary1-1

Artichoke extract contains:

Luteolin (27.71-215.52mg/kg) and the glycoside Luteolin-7-O-Glucopyranoside, the latter being known as Cynaroside.[6] These two are seen as the active Luteolin compounds, and are named after Cynara due to this


Other Luteolin compounds such as Luteolin 7-O-rutinoside, Luteolin 7-O-glucoside, and Luteolin 7-O-glucuronide;[4] all Luteolin compounds collectively range from 24.6-73.8g/kg, or 2.5-7.4% (variance depending on cultivar) and most being 7-O-glucoside[4]


Caffeoylquinic acids including Cynarin (aka. 1,3-dicaffeoylquinic acid)[6] and others such as 1-O-caffeoylquinic acid, 3-O-caffeoylquinic acid, 4-O-caffeoylquinic acid, 5-O-caffeoylquinic acid, and Caffeic acid.[4] Total caffeoylquinic acids range from 3139.02-7270.11mg/kg (0.3-0.7%)[4]



Chlorogenic Acid (aka. 5-O-caffeoylquinic acid)[7][6] ranging from 106.39-423.94mg/kg (0.01-0.04%)[4]


Apigenin (as 7-O-glucuronide, 7-O-glucoside, and 7-O-rutinoside)[4] with total Apigenin compounds ranging from 43.74-6477.68mg/kg (0.004-0.650%)[4]


Sterols including Beta-Sitosterol, Stigmaterol, and Campesterol[8]


If the fiber component is not removed, then an Inulin content[9] of 30.6-36.7% dry weight.[10]
If not otherwise removed, a mineral content including Potassium (14.1-25.3g/kg), Magnesium (0.8-2g/kg), Calcium (3.1-5.5g/kg), and Sodium (0.8-2.6g/kg); all highly affected by genotype, cultivar, and season[11]


Microminerals of Zinc (16.7-40.4mg/kg), Copper (4.7-10.5mg/kg), Manganese (8.5-14mg/kg), and Iron (34.3-82.2mg/kg)[11]

Swanson Vitamins has a new product: Luteolin Complex, 100mg, 30caps, $9.99.

good to know

Edited by ken_shiro, 18 October 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[acrunchyfrog]

I have been using CILTEP with Zembrin for the past two weeks and have been very happy with the improved focus. However, I'm not sure I need the serotogenic component on a daily basis. My emotions seem flattened.

Swanson Vitamins has a new product: Luteolin Complex, 100mg, 30caps, $9.99.

Could 100mg of Luteolin Complex replace 900mg Artichoke dose in CILTEP? Anyone know how much luteolin is in artichoke extract?

Glad to hear your feedback, and I'm interested in the luteolin product as well.

[chris106]

Thanks again to Abelard for sharing his knowledge with us!

I've been using CILTEP for 6 days consecutively now. After a little tweaking, I found out one ore two things that make it work for me and might be of interest to others, who don't see all the desired effects (yet)

First of, as someone mentioned before, keeping a close eye on mineral support might be somewhat crucial for some individuals. CILTEP appears to work smoother if I add my minerals to it in the morning (I only have/use magnesium and calcium right now, but plan on using a whole mineral formula).

I also appear to actually need more Forskolin (10mg instead of 4mg or less) - I increase my ALCAR dose accordingly, to 1,4g.
I also added 300mg ALPHA-GPC, for no other reason than it allways complemented ALCAR nicely for me. Don't know if that's necessary, but for now it doesn't lessen the effects of the stack, either.

Also I'm one of the few people who (for whatever reason) can't stand neither L-Phenylalanine nor L-Tyrosine. Both allways seemed not to help my Dopamine metabolism much but make me anxious instead. However, DLPA allways worked way better for me, and despite some users reporting it to not be recommendable for CILTEP, it works way better for me personally.

All in all my stack now looks as follows:

1g Artichoke extract (Jarrows)
10mg Forskolin (LifeExtension)
1,4g ALCAR
300mg Alpha GPC
1g DLPA
20mg NADH subl.
50mg P-5-P
1000mcg M-B12
5000iu Vit D
Magnesium/Calcium (citrat)
100mg Caffeine
200mg L-Theanine

Like this the stack works perfect for me, and for at least 10 hours (with occasional caffeine/ L-Thea re-dosing, though I now require much less caffeine than before!).

I should also add, that I allways underreact to any stack and especially stims. I have ADD-PI, and probably my neuronal signalling as a whole is somehwat impaired.

Of course this is all highly anecdotal, but as I said - just wanted to encourage others who don't see immediate success with CILTEP to not write it of but to instead start tweaking!

I've also been using TULIP in the evening for a short period of time in addition to CILTEP, but it's way too early to tell anything. At least it hasn't hurt till now.
I also plan on adding Magtein (Magnesium L-Threonate) - should either improve the results, I'll report back.

Edited by chris106, 18 October 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[machete234]

To rephrase this question: Can anybody tell me where to get the supplements as cheap as possible and from a site within the EU?
What are good brands?
I also would prefer paypal over credit card payment. (Never needed one, dont have one, intend to keep it that way)

I allready replied to you 2 pages back - weren't the sources cheap enough or did you not see my post?

Just asking because I've been looking real hard, and if anyone finds a better/ cheaper source within the EU, I'd be interested as well.

Pretty sure I havent seen it, because I was just quickly scanning the thread in the last two weeks
I will find it now, thanks.

Edited by machete234, 18 October 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[jadamgo]

It turns out that the CILTEP stack quits working if you get overtraining syndrome. After a month and a half of lifting 30-45 minutes per workout, 5 days per week with rapid progression while working several 56-hour weeks and taking the CILTEP stack 6 days/week and piracetam and noopept every day, and not eating enough calories because I got really body dysmorphic and also didn't have time to cook, I really did a number on my system.

I had expected some mild tolerance to develop to the CILTEP stack from overusing it, but what actually happened is that it totally quit working. I developed a fatigue that was resistant to all stimulants: not just the CILTEP stack, but even caffeine, albuterol, bright light therapy, everything totally quit working. (I didn't mention MPH in relation to fatigue because at the low dose I use, it already doesn't have any energy-stimulating properties at all; it only enhances focus and takes the impulsive edge off my emotions and actions. Those effects did not diminish at all, fortunately.)

In cases like this, the only cure is rest and recovery time, plus a lot of healthy food. Hopefully the CILTEP stack will work again when I start using it again next Tuesday to study for the GRE.

[silverbear]

Just got the natural stacks ciltep in the mail this afternoon. I'll give it a shot tomorrow morning and will start with two capsules.

[chung_pao]

It turns out that the CILTEP stack quits working if you get overtraining syndrome. After a month and a half of lifting 30-45 minutes per workout, 5 days per week with rapid progression while working several 56-hour weeks and taking the CILTEP stack 6 days/week and piracetam and noopept every day, and not eating enough calories because I got really body dysmorphic and also didn't have time to cook, I really did a number on my system.

I had expected some mild tolerance to develop to the CILTEP stack from overusing it, but what actually happened is that it totally quit working. I developed a fatigue that was resistant to all stimulants: not just the CILTEP stack, but even caffeine, albuterol, bright light therapy, everything totally quit working. (I didn't mention MPH in relation to fatigue because at the low dose I use, it already doesn't have any energy-stimulating properties at all; it only enhances focus and takes the impulsive edge off my emotions and actions. Those effects did not diminish at all, fortunately.)

In cases like this, the only cure is rest and recovery time, plus a lot of healthy food. Hopefully the CILTEP stack will work again when I start using it again next Tuesday to study for the GRE.

This also happened to me.
I concluded it had two causes:
1) AMPK inhibits mTOR-dependent LTP. I.e. Not enough glycogen and energy deficiency in general inhibits LTP, which is a function of PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, i.e. mTOR.
The novel thing for me was that Protein synthesis not only regulates muscle growth, but also MEMORY formation.

2) Recovery of ANY organ tissue requires downtime, during which PROTEIN SYNTHESIS is active. This goes back to the issue of mTOR and the REQUIREMENT for sufficient energy and recovery.

Conclusion: For ANY system in your body to thrive, for memory just like in the case of muscle growth and sports performance, you need sufficient energy and recovery.

Not to mention the whole deal of homeostasis and desensitization. One day off was all I needed for that though.

[abelard lindsay]

Not to mention the whole deal of homeostasis and desensitization. One day off was all I needed for that though.

So you're saying that one day off usually sorts it all out for you? I occasionally will take days off, usually on the weekends after a long period of studying or cramming to meet a work deadline. It's funny to take Odd-One-Out on cambridgebrainsciences.com on these off days and not be able to get in the score range I usually do when I'm taking CILTEP regularly. I think to myself, "I swear I had the trick for getting past 20 all figured out" but I'm just not quite able to do it. Sure, I score a little better than I did last year on odd-one-out but it's still kind of odd going back and forth between my "CILTEP" brain and my normal brain.

Right now I'm trying Mr. Happy Stack (Uridine,Choline,DHA) + Tulip + Ciltep with a lot of fish oil to try and mitigate the negative serotonin effects I got from CILTEP+Happy Stack. So far so good.

[abelard lindsay]

I need a forskolin replacement.

Sesamin perhaps?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21896570

These findings indicated that sesamin could stimulate melanogenesis in B16 cells via the up-regulation of MITF and tyrosinase, which was, in turn, due to the activation of cAMP signaling.

Also discussed earlier in the thread:
http://www.longecity...post__p__528646

[vtrader]

I would like to try this stack, but as mentioned in previous threads due to me anxiety I can't use anyone of the usual stim type supps.

[Sholrak]

Has anyone here tried Resveratrol (or any other substance, aside from Zembrin or Artichoke) for PDE4-inhibition?

Zembrin is working great for me, but the Serotonin-mediated effect of it is antagonistic to CILTEP, imo. It takes my edge off quite quickly.

Btw, someone please get ahold of this drug! (LTP + Testosterone!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23967182
"A Yeast-Based Chemical Screen Identifies a PDE Inhibitor That Elevates Steroidogenesis in Mouse Leydig Cells via PDE8 and PDE4 Inhibition."

Have you noticed different/additional chronic (ie. the benefits that show themselves long term when you are off ciltep) effects from the Zembrin supplementation besides the Artichoke has on you? If those benefits are better then could be worth cycling it and living with those serotoninergic feelings.

Anyway, I haven't a reference of how serotonin changes work in your mind. I've only tried dopamine, GABA, achetylcholine altering chemicals so far now (Piracetam, ALCAR, Choline, Melatonin, Ciltep, Cerebrolysin...). So, is that 'serotonine' feeling bad, good thing? I have never taken a SSRI or kanna/zembrin.

Edited by Sholrak, 20 October 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[darejz00]

What do you guys think of the Natural Stacks CILTEP product? The dosages seem about right, next step would be Mr Happy's stack in one single tub....

[machete234]

Would that work as the artichoke part?
"Standardized to 2.5-5% caffeoylquinic acids"

http://www.healthmon...herbs_artichoke

And maybe this?
Its supposed to have 10mg of Forskolin

http://www.healthmon...h_string=coleus

Edited by machete234, 20 October 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[ken_shiro]

Would that work as the artichoke part?
"Standardized to 2.5-5% caffeoylquinic acids"

http://www.healthmon...herbs_artichoke

And maybe this?
Its supposed to have 10mg of Forskolin

http://www.healthmon...h_string=coleus

Is healthmonthly a reliable seller?
has anyone experience with it?

[silverbear]

What do you guys think of the Natural Stacks CILTEP product? The dosages seem about right, next step would be Mr Happy's stack in one single tub....

Just on for two days now and it feels right for me and single pill convenience is a big thing for me. I'll provide more feedback after a week or so on ciltep.

[Babychris]

I give up I can't be a rat lab this year. Forksolin could be good but I think I have some allergic reaction to artichoke, each time I take it I feel sick REALLY SICK. It's funny I feel like I was younger, nothing to do and my mom taking care of me..

I could be kind of fun but as I repeat on each post I should work a lot this year almost 12h of physics/day and it's sustainable like that. I wish I could find something..

[Nordmann]

Not to mention the whole deal of homeostasis and desensitization. One day off was all I needed for that though.

So you're saying that one day off usually sorts it all out for you? I occasionally will take days off, usually on the weekends after a long period of studying or cramming to meet a work deadline. It's funny to take Odd-One-Out on cambridgebrainsciences.com on these off days and not be able to get in the score range I usually do when I'm taking CILTEP regularly. I think to myself, "I swear I had the trick for getting past 20 all figured out" but I'm just not quite able to do it. Sure, I score a little better than I did last year on odd-one-out but it's still kind of odd going back and forth between my "CILTEP" brain and my normal brain.

Right now I'm trying Mr. Happy Stack (Uridine,Choline,DHA) + Tulip + Ciltep with a lot of fish oil to try and mitigate the negative serotonin effects I got from CILTEP+Happy Stack. So far so good.

I`m going to take CILTEP 3-6 days a week, and Happy Stack on off days. I think I will really benefit from some CILTEP and caffeine free days, especially with 4-6 hard workouts a week. Any thoughts on this? Excited to hear how Happy + Tulip + CILTEP stack will turnout.

[abelard lindsay]

Right now I'm trying Mr. Happy Stack (Uridine,Choline,DHA) + Tulip + Ciltep with a lot of fish oil to try and mitigate the negative serotonin effects I got from CILTEP+Happy Stack. So far so good.

I`m going to take CILTEP 3-6 days a week, and Happy Stack on off days. I think I will really benefit from some CILTEP and caffeine free days, especially with 4-6 hard workouts a week. Any thoughts on this? Excited to hear how Happy + Tulip + CILTEP stack will turnout.

Tulip + CILTEP seems fine on its own. However, if you take the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP make sure to have L-Tryptophan around. I took the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP yesterday around noon and it was great and my cambridgebrainsciences scores went up to close to their records on odd-one-out and grammatical reasoning. However, sure enough, the next day, just like last time when I took the Mr. Happy stack with CILTEP, I was lying in bed at 8am thinking all kinds of depressed negative low serotonin thoughts (What's the meaning of life? Is anything worth it?). I struggled out of bed and pulled out the Source Naturals L-Tryptophan and took 500mg and in about 30 minutes I was feeling fine again.

My theory is is that with the CILTEP stack alone one tends to get depleted dopamine and choline so one has to add back pre-cursors and with Mr. Happy's stack L-Tryptophan , a serotonin pre-cursor amino acid, also gets depleted. Low serotonin is not fun, especially if you haven't spent a lot of time brain hacking and run into it before so I would say that Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP is for advanced brain hackers only and should not be undertaken without L-Tryptophan or St. John's Wort around to counteract the low serotonin situation I've run into twice now. If one is just starting out at all this I'd stick to CILTEP by itself.

Edit 10/21/13: Other people do not report these effects I do when combining CILTEP with the Mr. Happy Stack so it might be something particular to me or how I'm taking it. I'm not restricting my caffeine when taking it so that could have something to do with it.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 October 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[p3x888]

Right now I'm trying Mr. Happy Stack (Uridine,Choline,DHA) + Tulip + Ciltep with a lot of fish oil to try and mitigate the negative serotonin effects I got from CILTEP+Happy Stack. So far so good.

I`m going to take CILTEP 3-6 days a week, and Happy Stack on off days. I think I will really benefit from some CILTEP and caffeine free days, especially with 4-6 hard workouts a week. Any thoughts on this? Excited to hear how Happy + Tulip + CILTEP stack will turnout.

Tulip + CILTEP seems fine on its own. However, if you take the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP make sure to have L-Tryptophan around. I took the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP yesterday around noon and it was great and my cambridgebrainsciences scores went up to close to their records on odd-one-out and grammatical reasoning. However, sure enough, the next day, just like last time when I took the Mr. Happy stack with CILTEP, I was lying in bed at 8am thinking all kinds of depressed negative low serotonin thoughts (What's the meaning of life? Is anything worth it?). I struggled out of bed and pulled out the Source Naturals L-Tryptophan and took 500mg and in about 30 minutes I was feeling fine again.

My theory is is that with the CILTEP stack alone one tends to get depleted dopamine and choline so one has to add back pre-cursors and with Mr. Happy's stack L-Tryptophan , a serotonin pre-cursor amino acid, also gets depleted. Low serotonin is not fun, especially if you haven't spent a lot of time brain hacking and run into it before so I would say that Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP is for advanced brain hackers only and should not be undertaken without L-Tryptophan or St. John's Wort around to counteract the low serotonin situation I've run into twice now. If one is just starting out at all this I'd stick to CILTEP by itself.

Does this include the caffeine with the CILTEP? I have seen some comments to the effect that caffeine and uridine don't mix well together. Just asking as I want to add the caffeine back in.

[Potent]

Right now I'm trying Mr. Happy Stack (Uridine,Choline,DHA) + Tulip + Ciltep with a lot of fish oil to try and mitigate the negative serotonin effects I got from CILTEP+Happy Stack. So far so good.

I`m going to take CILTEP 3-6 days a week, and Happy Stack on off days. I think I will really benefit from some CILTEP and caffeine free days, especially with 4-6 hard workouts a week. Any thoughts on this? Excited to hear how Happy + Tulip + CILTEP stack will turnout.

Tulip + CILTEP seems fine on its own. However, if you take the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP make sure to have L-Tryptophan around. I took the Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP yesterday around noon and it was great and my cambridgebrainsciences scores went up to close to their records on odd-one-out and grammatical reasoning. However, sure enough, the next day, just like last time when I took the Mr. Happy stack with CILTEP, I was lying in bed at 8am thinking all kinds of depressed negative low serotonin thoughts (What's the meaning of life? Is anything worth it?). I struggled out of bed and pulled out the Source Naturals L-Tryptophan and took 500mg and in about 30 minutes I was feeling fine again.

My theory is is that with the CILTEP stack alone one tends to get depleted dopamine and choline so one has to add back pre-cursors and with Mr. Happy's stack L-Tryptophan , a serotonin pre-cursor amino acid, also gets depleted. Low serotonin is not fun, especially if you haven't spent a lot of time brain hacking and run into it before so I would say that Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP is for advanced brain hackers only and should not be undertaken without L-Tryptophan or St. John's Wort around to counteract the low serotonin situation I've run into twice now. If one is just starting out at all this I'd stick to CILTEP by itself.

Very interesting. You have been keen to point out nuances of stacks and combinations in the past, such as CILTEP's working memory issues, NALT/ALCAR for CILTEP fatigue, and depression from sunifram... all of which I have experienced and subjectively confirm as well. So I don't doubt your experience with MHS + CILTEP.

However, I can't say I've felt serotonin depletion from Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP. I'm familiar with serotonin depletion as well (post MDMA). The only thing I have felt is potentially a small amount of creeping depression, which I suspect is from the alpha-GPC from MHS, which I have felt before. However, wayyy too many confounding factors right now, perhaps I'll feel profound depression that is serotonin related later on. For ~ 2 months of daily combined MHS + CILTEP though, fine on my front.

Edited by Potent, 21 October 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[machete234]

Would that work as the artichoke part?
"Standardized to 2.5-5% caffeoylquinic acids"

http://www.healthmon...herbs_artichoke

And maybe this?
Its supposed to have 10mg of Forskolin

http://www.healthmon...h_string=coleus

Is healthmonthly a reliable seller?
has anyone experience with it?

Well, I couldnt wait for a positive response by the others and ordered it, I will let you know when and if it comes. (But Im almost sure its a real shop ect )

[BlueCloud]

strange... after deciding to give up on CILTEP, out of a whim I decided to try it one last time. I took 5x200mg Artichoke , and approximately 12mg Forskolin ( 120mg at 10% ). One hour later I felt the same reaction I described in an earlier post, but even stronger. The complete opposite of what people seem to experience here ( wich is strong focus, with a side effect of anxiety at times ), I felt very relaxed, and very unfocused. Wich is odd , since I'm very prone to chronic anxiety.
The relaxing effect lasted almost all day, but reading and trying to understand any type of material was harder than usual, I often had to re-read sentences 2 or 3 times to understand them.

[Incendies]

Im starting my first stack.... I was going to do this, CILTEP, or a basic piracetam routine. Which one would you guys recommend and what are the main differences?