2626 replies to this topic

[abelard lindsay]

Does this include the caffeine with the CILTEP? I have seen some comments to the effect that caffeine and uridine don't mix well together. Just asking as I want to add the caffeine back in.

However, I can't say I've felt serotonin depletion from Mr. Happy Stack + CILTEP. I'm familiar with serotonin depletion as well (post MDMA). The only thing I have felt is potentially a small amount of creeping depression, which I suspect is from the alpha-GPC from MHS, which I have felt before. However, wayyy too many confounding factors right now, perhaps I'll feel profound depression that is serotonin related later on. For ~ 2 months of daily combined MHS + CILTEP though, fine on my front.

I did not hold off on the caffeine so that certainly could have had something to do with why the Mr. Happy Stack caused mood issues when I combined it with CILTEP. Maybe I'll taper off caffeine at some point and try the two again.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 October 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Amby]

So almost 2 weeks since I first got my CILTEP stack ingredients. I've had a few "off" days as recommended. So how's it all going?

Initially I split the 1 x 25 mg Forskolin capsule into 6 parts (approx 4 mg as recommended) but I didn't evenly split. I had a pretty good first day but nothing stella since. I changed the second week's split into 5 x 5mg caps, but no hardcore focus/concentration/drive/memory as others have experienced. What are people's thoughts on getting this effect - just keep upping the forskolin mg levels? If so do I have to compensate with more ALCAR?

I've also ordered Zembrin from iHerb. Interested to see how it goes replacing artichoke.

[abelard lindsay]

What do you guys think of the Natural Stacks CILTEP product? The dosages seem about right, next step would be Mr Happy's stack in one single tub....

Just on for two days now and it feels right for me and single pill convenience is a big thing for me. I'll provide more feedback after a week or so on ciltep.

FYI, I've been taking the naturalstacks.com CILTEP pills over the past week and they are great! In my opinion, they are strong, consistent and convenient. One nice thing about them is it's really easy to take 1/3 of a dose or a full dose depending on how strong of an effect you want to get.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 October 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[jadamgo]

So almost 2 weeks since I first got my CILTEP stack ingredients. I've had a few "off" days as recommended. So how's it all going?

Initially I split the 1 x 25 mg Forskolin capsule into 6 parts (approx 4 mg as recommended) but I didn't evenly split. I had a pretty good first day but nothing stella since. I changed the second week's split into 5 x 5mg caps, but no hardcore focus/concentration/drive/memory as others have experienced. What are people's thoughts on getting this effect - just keep upping the forskolin mg levels? If so do I have to compensate with more ALCAR?

I've also ordered Zembrin from iHerb. Interested to see how it goes replacing artichoke.

Some people get away with increasing the forskolin, but for others this causes serious tolerance problems and bad fatigue on days off. You might try adding caffeine, tyrosine, piracetam, etc. before you start increasing the forskolin because sometimes those other compounds synergize with the stack and improve its effectiveness. They're also less likely to cause exhaustion on days off.

[Perception-Is-Reality]

Would repeated administration of carbidpa and 5htp combat seratonin depletion long term?

[xsiv1]

Would repeated administration of carbidpa and 5htp combat seratonin depletion long term?

What does this have to do with CILTEP?

[hephaestus]

Abelard mentioned feeling low on serotonin when combining CILTEP and the uridine stack. I was wondering if it might not be related to altered ACh levels since excess is associated with depression. Is there any particular mechanism that you believe would cause 5-HT depletion when combining the two? Any idea how effective EGCG is at preventing peripheral metabolism of 5-HTP, Phenylalanine, or Tyrosine?

Edited by hephaestus, 23 October 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[xsiv1]

Abelard mentioned feeling low on serotonin when combining CILTEP and the uridine stack. I was wondering if it might not be related to altered ACh levels since excess is associated with depression. Is there any particular mechanism that you believe would cause 5-HT depletion when combining the two? Any idea how effective EGCG is at preventing peripheral metabolism of 5-HTP, Phenylalanine, or Tyrosine?

Thanks, now i'm understanding the serotonin depletion question.

[lammas2]

Abelard mentioned feeling low on serotonin when combining CILTEP and the uridine stack. I was wondering if it might not be related to altered ACh levels since excess is associated with depression. Is there any particular mechanism that you believe would cause 5-HT depletion when combining the two? Any idea how effective EGCG is at preventing peripheral metabolism of 5-HTP, Phenylalanine, or Tyrosine?

If anything, forskolin should help lower excess acetylcholine since it upregulates acetylcholinesterase (more ACh breaks down).

I wouldn't really worry about the peripheral metabolism of phenylalanine or tyrosine, since these are rate-limited by tyrosine hydroxylase and phenylalanine hydroxylase - body only produces the needed amount of catecholamines. 5-HTP on the other hand... I would reccommend tryptophan instead (rate-limited by tryptophan hydroxylase).

[xsiv1]

One 'might' consider, if taking both stacks, and using Zembrin instead of artichoke extract, to at least be aware of the effects that adding too much l-tryptophan may have. One could get agitated and very restless amongst other effects. I very much doubt there's any risk of serotonin syndrome at modest doses. Just a note to some who may be on an antidepressant already and haven't done all their research on the two different stacks.

Edited by xsiv1, 23 October 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[Perception-Is-Reality]

I think taking ECGC with 5-HTP or L-trytophan would restore serotonin the best and ECGC is much easyier to get/cheaper than carbidpa.

[ken_shiro]

When I study, in the afternoon, I can't take ciltep stack, because I take uridine stack.

Does ciltep work if I take it when I don't study, say in the morning, or before going to sleep (at night)?

[vtrader]

Can ciltep be ok for those prone to anxiety attacks, as most people are taking a stim with the stack?

[hephaestus]

Abelard mentioned feeling low on serotonin when combining CILTEP and the uridine stack. I was wondering if it might not be related to altered ACh levels since excess is associated with depression. Is there any particular mechanism that you believe would cause 5-HT depletion when combining the two? Any idea how effective EGCG is at preventing peripheral metabolism of 5-HTP, Phenylalanine, or Tyrosine?

If anything, forskolin should help lower excess acetylcholine since it upregulates acetylcholinesterase (more ACh breaks down).

I wouldn't really worry about the peripheral metabolism of phenylalanine or tyrosine, since these are rate-limited by tyrosine hydroxylase and phenylalanine hydroxylase - body only produces the needed amount of catecholamines. 5-HTP on the other hand... I would reccommend tryptophan instead (rate-limited by tryptophan hydroxylase).

cAMP is a second messenger and is involved in a huge number of biological processes. I doubt we have even scratched the surface in this thread. I skimmed a few google results and it looks like it also upregulates Choline Acetyltransferase transcription:

http://link.springer...00969082#page-1
http://www.jbc.org/c...0/38/22101.long

Edited by hephaestus, 24 October 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[hephaestus]

Maybe try ciltep without the alcar if you are going to add in uridine?

[Sholrak]

Yes, absolutely for me. ALCAR isn't even a part in the original Ciltep preparation. It's taken because it fight the working memory deficit and because even ALCAR alone is amazing.

[hephaestus]

I believe ACh isn't directly transported back into neurons and has to be broken down into acetyl and choline groups. There are transporters for choline, and then ACh is resynthesized utilizing choline acetyltransferase (ChAT). This is one of the reasons you don't want to go overboard with AChE inhibition. I don't know whether increased cAMP would increase AChE transcription more than ChAT transcription. Even if the upregulation is similar, this could still result in ACh depletion if choline transport is insufficient. Interestingly, increased cAMP may upregulate vesicular acetylcholine transporter (VAChT) but downregulate high-affinity choline transporter (CHT):

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17320829

[hephaestus]

I believe most or all of the racetams increase high affinity choline uptake:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3594455

Edited by hephaestus, 27 October 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[MikeMMK1990@gmail.com]

Hi, I'm currently not on the stack for today and/or tomorrow (been using this for way too much on a daily basis for about ~4-5 months) so I'm taking a break from every ingredient of the stack (except for b12): phenylpiracetam, artichoke extract at 900mg, zembrin 25mg (wasn't using this everyday anyways because of weird serotonin effects), 1000mg ALCAR, 4mg forskolin, etc.

What are good supps to help with recovery of overuse of the stack.. I do have galantamine on hand and have read that it could help but are there any other supplements that are suggested for someone who is completely off the stack for 1-2 days? I am feeling less stimulated today and thoughts are harder to process sometimes than when I'm on the stack..so I'm feeling a difference. I want to study for a couple hours today so I'd like to know some tips on this issue so I can effectively kill this semi-brain fog.

Thanks

[Neal Cullum]

Can ciltep be ok for those prone to anxiety attacks, as most people are taking a stim with the stack?

I suffer from anxiety and bad sleep but i've found the CILTEP to be alright with me. I'm still in the early stages of taking it and if i need a pick me up i'll reach for green tea or matcha tea and these don't make my anxiety worse. I'm going to be trying yerba mate, heard good things about it.

[xsiv1]

Hi, I'm currently not on the stack for today and/or tomorrow (been using this for way too much on a daily basis for about ~4-5 months) so I'm taking a break from every ingredient of the stack (except for b12): phenylpiracetam, artichoke extract at 900mg, zembrin 25mg (wasn't using this everyday anyways because of weird serotonin effects), 1000mg ALCAR, 4mg forskolin, etc.

What are good supps to help with recovery of overuse of the stack.. I do have galantamine on hand and have read that it could help but are there any other supplements that are suggested for someone who is completely off the stack for 1-2 days? I am feeling less stimulated today and thoughts are harder to process sometimes than when I'm on the stack..so I'm feeling a difference. I want to study for a couple hours today so I'd like to know some tips on this issue so I can effectively kill this semi-brain fog.

Thanks

Have you been using the CILTEP stack more than once in a day or do you mean you've just been using it once daily for 4-5 months?

I've never used CILTEP more than once per day..normally, first thing in the morning.

[MikeMMK1990@gmail.com]

Hi, I'm currently not on the stack for today and/or tomorrow (been using this for way too much on a daily basis for about ~4-5 months) so I'm taking a break from every ingredient of the stack (except for b12): phenylpiracetam, artichoke extract at 900mg, zembrin 25mg (wasn't using this everyday anyways because of weird serotonin effects), 1000mg ALCAR, 4mg forskolin, etc.

What are good supps to help with recovery of overuse of the stack.. I do have galantamine on hand and have read that it could help but are there any other supplements that are suggested for someone who is completely off the stack for 1-2 days? I am feeling less stimulated today and thoughts are harder to process sometimes than when I'm on the stack..so I'm feeling a difference. I want to study for a couple hours today so I'd like to know some tips on this issue so I can effectively kill this semi-brain fog.

Thanks

Have you been using the CILTEP stack more than once in a day or do you mean you've just been using it once daily for 4-5 months?

I've never used CILTEP more than once per day..normally, first thing in the morning.

Sorry for the confusion I meant I only use the stack once per day. Yes, I have been using it once daily for 4-5 months.

[acrunchyfrog]

I'm not having superb luck with zembrin. If anything, I"m getting similar results that I've received when taking 5-htp and when I was an an SSRI briefly. Namely, I have zero motivation, hedonistic eating of anything not bolted down, and I feel rather depressed and pessimistic. Swapping out artichoke for zembrin is the only change to the regimen as of late.

Here's the stack I've been on:
25 mg zembrin,
10mg forskolin (which is down from the 30 mg I was taking when I was using the concentrated forskolin product)
2 g ALCAR
10mg Adderall
500 mg Phenylalanine (I had tried NALT, but it makes me angry)

A-GPC and Prami as needed for an extra study boost.

[xsiv1]

I'm not having superb luck with zembrin. If anything, I"m getting similar results that I've received when taking 5-htp and when I was an an SSRI briefly. Namely, I have zero motivation, hedonistic eating of anything not bolted down, and I feel rather depressed and pessimistic. Swapping out artichoke for zembrin is the only change to the regimen as of late.

Here's the stack I've been on:
25 mg zembrin,
10mg forskolin (which is down from the 30 mg I was taking when I was using the concentrated forskolin product)
2 g ALCAR
10mg Adderall
500 mg Phenylalanine (I had tried NALT, but it makes me angry)

A-GPC and Prami as needed for an extra study boost.

I didn't find Zembrin to be ideal for me either. A.E. works fine. I use just under 5mgs of forskolin, 500mgs of ALCAR and if I do decide on including a dopamine precursor on a given day, it'll always go with my Vitamins/Min to ensure I'm getting the B's to utilize L-PA or NALT efficiently.

[DamnedOwl]

Has anyone yielded any positive results from the PDE4 inhibition alone? That is, through just taking the Artichoke Extract without stacking it with forskolin?

[geostriata]

It looks like I can't take the Naturalstacks combination because it includes ALCAR. After 6 days on it, I noticed myself getting into a deep depression. This happened last time I supplemented with ALCAR. However, I strongly believe in the CILTEP stack. Before everything started to deteriorate due to depression, my thinking was fabulous.

So, in short, I'd like to continue taking CILTEP, but without the ALCAR. However, I'm concerned that I will start having working memory issues (it's already rather bad), so I'm thinking I should replace the ALCAR for something else (maybe countering ACHe upregulation?). Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[abelard lindsay]

It looks like I can't take the Naturalstacks combination because it includes ALCAR. After 6 days on it, I noticed myself getting into a deep depression. This happened last time I supplemented with ALCAR. However, I strongly believe in the CILTEP stack. Before everything started to deteriorate due to depression, my thinking was fabulous.

So, in short, I'd like to continue taking CILTEP, but without the ALCAR. However, I'm concerned that I will start having working memory issues (it's already rather bad), so I'm thinking I should replace the ALCAR for something else (maybe countering ACHe upregulation?). Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Just an idea, but maybe you're sensitive to choline? In which case you wouldn't need ALCAR to counteract increased acetylcholinesterase from the stack. When I want to see what the stacks doing to my short term memory I do "paired associates" on cambridgebrainsciences.com before and about an hour after I take the stack.

[abelard lindsay]

Forskolin increases tryptophan hydroxylase transcription which is the enzyme that turns L-Tryptophan into 5-HTP which then turns into serotonin:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10900076

Using cultures established from the E14 rat raphe we show here that forskolin (10 microM) increases numbers of neurons expressing tryptophan hydroxylase (TpOH), the key enzyme of serotonin synthesis, and uptake of the false serotonergic transmitter 5, 7-dihydroxytryptamine (5,7-DHT). As shown by short-term treatments the effect is due to phenotype induction rather than survival.

Besides supplementing L-Tryptophan directly, the following foods are high in tryptophan:

http://nutritiondata...00000000-1.html

I always have a few eggs every morning which contains about 200mg L-Tryptophan each.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 03 November 2013 - 02:14 AM.

[geostriata]

Just an idea, but maybe you're sensitive to choline? In which case you wouldn't need ALCAR to counteract increased acetylcholinesterase from the stack. When I want to see what the stacks doing to my short term memory I do "paired associates" on cambridgebrainsciences.com before and about an hour after I take the stack.

I started taking the equivalent fomulation without the ALCAR (Solaray Forskohlii/Now Artichoke/Now L-PAE) and things seem to be going much better. So I think you're right -- dropping the ALCAR seems to be the right move due to choline sensitivity. Thanks!

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

[abelard lindsay]

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

Acetylcholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine. I earlier theorized that in many people, including me, it breaks acetylcholine down so much that it leads to the well known 2pm drowsiness that was a problem with earlier versions of the stack. I would always take NALT at 2pm to power through the slump but adding ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin fixed this issue, at least for me. It's possible that if someone was hypersensitive to acetylcholine, they might not need the cholinergic boost that ALCAR provides and the ALCAR might temporarily increase their acetylcholine to unpleasant levels over time.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 03 November 2013 - 04:15 AM.