2626 replies to this topic

[dartanian]

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

Acetylcholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine. I earlier theorized that in many people, including me, it breaks acetylcholine down so much that it leads to the well known 2pm drowsiness that was a problem with earlier versions of the stack. I would always take NALT at 2pm to power through the slump but adding ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin fixed this issue, at least for me. It's possible that if someone was hypersensitive to acetylcholine, they might not need the cholinergic boost that ALCAR provides and the ALCAR might temporarily increase their acetylcholine to unpleasant levels over time.

ALCAR with the stack in the morning? or at 2PM?

[abelard lindsay]

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

Acetylcholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine. I earlier theorized that in many people, including me, it breaks acetylcholine down so much that it leads to the well known 2pm drowsiness that was a problem with earlier versions of the stack. I would always take NALT at 2pm to power through the slump but adding ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin fixed this issue, at least for me. It's possible that if someone was hypersensitive to acetylcholine, they might not need the cholinergic boost that ALCAR provides and the ALCAR might temporarily increase their acetylcholine to unpleasant levels over time.

ALCAR with the stack in the morning? or at 2PM?

The ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin in the morning is what I added to the stack to fix the 2pm slump.

[iwant]

I have experienced worsening of depression when taking artichoke extract alone and with forskolin. Seems it is a side effect of pde4-inhibitor Roflumilast, so perhaps the pde4-inhibition from artichoke could give that side effect in some as well?

[abelard lindsay]

I have experienced worsening of depression when taking artichoke extract alone and with forskolin. Seems it is a side effect of pde4-inhibitor Roflumilast, so perhaps the pde4-inhibition from artichoke could give that side effect in some as well?

The stack doesn't work for everybody. If artichoke extract alone makes you feel depressed you should probably try something other than CILTEP.

[hephaestus]

You could try a slightly higher dose of forskolin by itself. The instructions on c-bolic say to take 25mg 2x daily, but I probably wouldn't go that high.

[iwant]

Thank you for your reply. I will try forskolin alone.

Pde4 inhibitors are being researched for their antidepressive effects[1][2], so I was not expecting a an opposite effect.

1: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/22677471/
2: http://www.sciencedi...01429991300719X

[hephaestus]

Are you taking any other supplements? My first guesses for depressive symptoms would be too much choline or not enough serotonin. You might want to try supplementing tryptophan as Abelard suggested. Did you take any tyrosine or phenylalanine with the artichoke extract? You said a worsening of depressive symptoms, so I assume you already have them to some degree. I have found Perika St. John's Wort to be effective at treating mild depression for myself.

Edited by hephaestus, 03 November 2013 - 11:42 PM.

[iwant]

I am using sertraline 50mg. Rolipram pde4 inhibitor increases the neurogeneis of sertraline [1]. Seems to be different subtypes of pde4 that antidepressants effects [2] (only read the abstract).

1: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/21483429/
2: http://m.jneurosci.o.../19/2/610.short

[iwant]

Are you taking any other supplements? My first guesses for depressive symptoms would be too much choline or not enough serotonin. You might want to try supplementing tryptophan as Abelard suggested. Did you take any tyrosine or phenylalanine with the artichoke extract? You said a worsening of depressive symptoms, so I assume you already have them to some degree. I have found Perika St. John's Wort to be effective at treating mild depression for myself.

I am getting phenylalanine through aspartame(diet soda). Don't know if that counts I'll try to get some tryptophan.

Thank you for your tips.

[hephaestus]

Quick search said the aspartame in a serving of diet coke breaks down into 90mg phe, now sure how quickly though.

[magta39]

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

Acetylcholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine. I earlier theorized that in many people, including me, it breaks acetylcholine down so much that it leads to the well known 2pm drowsiness that was a problem with earlier versions of the stack. I would always take NALT at 2pm to power through the slump but adding ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin fixed this issue, at least for me. It's possible that if someone was hypersensitive to acetylcholine, they might not need the cholinergic boost that ALCAR provides and the ALCAR might temporarily increase their acetylcholine to unpleasant levels over time.

ALCAR with the stack in the morning? or at 2PM?

The ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin in the morning is what I added to the stack to fix the 2pm slump.

For me 2mg of Galantamine works far better than 1000mgs of ALCAR, it is more cost effective too.

[chemicalambrosia]

Where can you find galantamine in 2mg doses? Everything I see is higher dose in capsules. Are you just emptying out half of a capsule?

[magta39]

Yes, half a capsule.

[geostriata]

For me 2mg of Galantamine works far better than 1000mgs of ALCAR, it is more cost effective too.

I'm very interested in this. The ALCAR seems to be an important component, as I feel like I'm not receiving as much benefit now without it. Do you happen to know how it "fits in" with the CILTEP stack? I see people emperically reporting that it works well, but I don't understand the reasons behind that benefit.

[abelard lindsay]

PDE inhibitors + cAMP as a hair growth treatment is an interesting theory I stumbled onto in the literature recently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7960503

Local therapy with trichoriboside and trichosaccharide, which have been found to be beneficial for scalp hair maintenance in adult males affected by androgenic alopecia, was found to increase cAMP levels in human scalp hair follicles. The increase was significant in men affected by androgenic alopecia, whereas it was not significant in unaffected control men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3500065/

The proposed mechanism which would counteract DHT-induced miniaturization of the hair follicle include inhibition of phosphodiesterase by caffeine, which increases cAMP levels in cells and therefore promotes proliferation by stimulating cell metabolism.[5]

Edited by abelard lindsay, 07 November 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[BlueCloud]

^^ There have been a few caffeinated shampoo treatments on the market for many years, but they don't seem to be doing much, according to threads on various hairloss forums...'

[magniloquentc0unt]

Are there any predictors for successful outcome?
Personally im tired of ordering bottles of stuff that end up doing nothing...

[Babychris]

I respond prety bad to artichoke, don't know if it's a kind of allergic reaction or if I don't bear the PDE-4 Inhibition..

[Godof Smallthings]

I respond prety bad to artichoke

What brand, and what are your symptoms?

[raincheck]

It turns out that the CILTEP stack quits working if you get overtraining syndrome. After a month and a half of lifting 30-45 minutes per workout, 5 days per week with rapid progression while working several 56-hour weeks and taking the CILTEP stack 6 days/week and piracetam and noopept every day, and not eating enough calories because I got really body dysmorphic and also didn't have time to cook, I really did a number on my system.

I had expected some mild tolerance to develop to the CILTEP stack from overusing it, but what actually happened is that it totally quit working. I developed a fatigue that was resistant to all stimulants: not just the CILTEP stack, but even caffeine, albuterol, bright light therapy, everything totally quit working. (I didn't mention MPH in relation to fatigue because at the low dose I use, it already doesn't have any energy-stimulating properties at all; it only enhances focus and takes the impulsive edge off my emotions and actions. Those effects did not diminish at all, fortunately.)

In cases like this, the only cure is rest and recovery time, plus a lot of healthy food. Hopefully the CILTEP stack will work again when I start using it again next Tuesday to study for the GRE.

This also happened to me.
I concluded it had two causes:
1) AMPK inhibits mTOR-dependent LTP. I.e. Not enough glycogen and energy deficiency in general inhibits LTP, which is a function of PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, i.e. mTOR.
The novel thing for me was that Protein synthesis not only regulates muscle growth, but also MEMORY formation.

2) Recovery of ANY organ tissue requires downtime, during which PROTEIN SYNTHESIS is active. This goes back to the issue of mTOR and the REQUIREMENT for sufficient energy and recovery.

Conclusion: For ANY system in your body to thrive, for memory just like in the case of muscle growth and sports performance, you need sufficient energy and recovery.

Not to mention the whole deal of homeostasis and desensitization. One day off was all I needed for that though.

Should those of us who work out start adding leucine to our stacks in the morning?

Abelard, are you still using 1:1 of Zembrin and Artichoke?
I get fatigued very early using Artichoke, and require re-dosing of Forskolin to maintain alertness.
I suspect it's because Melatonin is cAMP-dependent, and my PDE-inhibition is too weak.

For the benefit of myself, and all others users of this stack, I think the modification that holds most promise is a Stronger/more specific inhibition of PDE-4 than Artichoke Extract provides. Higher dosing that 2x500 mg has too many side-effects (boners, sedation).

What form of PDE-inhibition have you found to be most effective? Zembrin coupled with Artichoke or the latter stand-alone?

My issue with Zembrin alone is the Serotonergic feel, which definitely makes me less assertive, confident and motivated.
Have you researched it thoroughly enough to conclude that there are no other known, natural PDE-inhibitors than Artichoke and Zembrin?
If you have any leads, I'd be willing to initiate some testing.

Eliminated fatigue completely by applying stronger PDE-inhibition.
Optimal ratio so far: 2-3:1 of Artichoke extract:Zembrin.

The people who are convinced of the efficiency of the mechanism behind CILTEP should really give Zembrin a try, due to its reported Complete inhibition of the desired PDE isoform. For both memory and alertness, this is very effective.

Got up 5:20 am. Warm shower (sorry chung pao!) then had:


Up until then I was disappointed with how things were going. I started my nootropics discovery tour thanks to rewatching Limitless 6 weeks ago. I was hoping for the same kind of stunning almost omnipresent affects as Bradley Cooper’s character, which alas didn’t happen.

You know, that movie was partially inspired by the writer's experiences with modafinil.
However, I'm not recommending that you try it. The combination of addictive potential + side-effects can be very dangerous.
Ciltep is probably more effective for memory and even health purposes anyway.

A ratio of 2:1 Artichoke to Zembrin has effected me the most, when I'm doing Abelard's current stack on the first page, I feel like effects, It could be due to dopamine downregulation from smoking too much pot in the past. Magnesium Theorate seems to help me alot where without it I don't feel the effects too much.

[bestbefore]

Has anyone tried combining the CILTEP stack with Bacopa? It seems to me to further improve memory.

[Godof Smallthings]

I've taken the combination bacopa/CILTeP, but I can not say that bacopa has done much for me, despite having taken it daily for over three months now. Of course, since I have not tried CILTeP without bacopa, I can not make a comparison.

[chung_pao]

Anyone else notice reduced verbal fluency with Artichoke extract? This seems to share mechanisms with working memory.

Could it be related to dopamine d2 d3 receptors?
It seems so, since modafinil produces the opposite effects in working memory and verbal fluency, and is targeting the d2 d3 receptors agonistically.

However, this is actually a pleasant effect, since anxiety is also reduced along with jittery, excessive talkativeness and compulsive thoughts.

Edited by chung_pao, 09 November 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[majkazuki]

Anyone else notice reduced verbal fluency with Artichoke extract? This seems to share mechanisms with working memory.

Could it be related to dopamine d2 d3 receptors?
It seems so, since modafinil produces the opposite effects in working memory and verbal fluency, and is targeting the d2 d3 receptors agonistically.

However, this is actually a pleasant effect, since anxiety is also reduced along with jittery, excessive talkativeness and compulsive thoughts.

I've been wondering about verbal fluency, too. I've found myself frustrated, grasping for words at times. I don't have the same scientific background or length of study as some of our more prolific posters, so I'll refrain from hypothesizing.

[xsiv1]

That's quite strange fellas since I've experienced the exact opposite effect. Artichoke Extract doesn't bother me in the slightest but I do notice enhanced verbal fluency in the mornings. Perhaps it was the addition of 500mgs ALCAR that helped. I feel sharp with the standard stack minus the dopamine pre-cursor. When I was using NALT or L-PA or even DLPA, I've always experienced a discernible drop in mental acuity when the effects wore off. I didn't want to re-dose in the afternoon like I was doing. Nowadays, I may use NALT in the mid-afternoon but it's sporadic. Just another facet of how this stack can affect people differently...especially when we don't know what other supplements or nootropics or even medications the person is using at the same time.

[abelard lindsay]

Note: the CILTEP stack + Uridine stack is still in development. Stick to the stack on the first page if you're new here.

In my continuing exploration of CILTEP and uridine I am finding a really cool effect. I notice that when I take the two together I get breakthroughs in my scoring on cambridgerbrainsciences.com. It's like I figure something out about the test at a deep level and then am able to use it later. For instance, the first time I took the combo I was able to break above 20 on odd-one-out and now I can get there semi-regularly, even without uridine. It's like I developed a new neural network circuit in my brain for that test. I took CILTEP and uridine yesterday and I got a 33 on grammatical reasoning and an 11 on monkey ladder which is 97% and 100% percentile respectively. I've never gotten higher than a 32 at my absolute best on grammatical reasoning before and no better than an 9 on monkey ladder. When I was getting those scores there was something going on that felt "natural" about it. For instance, walking is a very complicated thing if one breaks it down to its individual physical movements. However, we do it without thinking most of the time. It's so ingrained into our brains that it's "natural". I kind of felt that way when getting these astronomical scores on cambridgebrainsciences.com; that I was doing something oddly "natural" that had been encoded on a sub-conscious level.

I'm still struggling to break out on paired associates. This is the last test I have yet to conquer. I am terrible at the concentration tests too. If you guys find any nootropic ideas concerning those let me know. I'm thinking that the key with these is in the NMDARs and the only thing useful for those is Magnesium Threonate or messing around with LostFalco's LLLT.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 11 November 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[health_nutty]

How much uridine are you taking?

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[abelard lindsay]

How much uridine are you taking?

I'm taking 300mg of cardiovascular research UMP. I only take the stack with UMP about once a week.

[middpanther88]

Is the ump like necessary/significant effects?

[xsiv1]

No. As he stated, he's only taking it in combination once per week and seems to still be experimenting.