2626 replies to this topic

[Droplet33]

Another D₁ Agonist/D₂ Antagonist to look into is (-)Stepholidine
https://en.wikipedia...ki/Stepholidine

It is found in Stephania intermedia, and is actually a fairly well known herb in Chinese medicine. In addition to the dopaminergic effects, it also has weak 5-HT_1A agonism, which is not exactly unhelpful, here (downstream, modulating the α₂-adrenergic receptors).

Overall it's a promising candidate, but I am having problems finding a source for it that is reasonably priced, as is the case with most ingredients from TCM.

I'm doing some digging around for this one, Stepholidine in itself seem to be "insanely" expensive, but related root extracts of the Stephania family seem to not be that expensive by the Kg on alibaba (yeah, China).

Anyone else can chime in about the potential value of Stephania intermedia?
Oral bioavailability and brain penetration of (−)-stepholidine, a tetrahydroprotoberberine agonist at dopamine D₁ and antagonist at D₂ receptors, in rats


http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2782339/

[waitwhatthe]

Agmatine is a promising looking adjunct to the stack:

Acute agmatine (2.5-10mg/kg, s.c.) treatment facilitated hippocampal LTP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20451544

Agmatine (0.1-100 microM) failed to activate pre-junctional alpha 2-adrenoceptors regulating transmitter release in the guinea-pig isolated ileum and rat isolated vas deferens, nor did it activate postjunctional alpha 2-adrenoceptors of the porcine isolated palmar lateral vein which mediate contraction or inhibition of forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP formation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7715734

Among it's many effects, Agmatine seems to replace NO₂ as a neurotransmitter, inhibiting its release and acting in its stead. It's effects on increasing specifically Hippocampal LTP over any other kind is also of use, here. It also seems not to interfere with the basic mechanism by which Forskolin works, at least not directly, and it seems to potentiate at least some of its effects while eliminating some of its side effects. I have been trying the whole stack + Agmatine and have noticed a marked improvement in the working memory aspect and overall calm.

Also, some of the things that people may be overlooking in the stack are actually of vital importance, such as Acetyl-L-Carnitine:

The beneficial effects of acetyl-L-carnitine may occur through amelioration of oxidative stress because it effectively decreases the levels of oxidative products and increases the activity of superoxide dismutase; this leads to a recovery in the suppressed activity of p53 caused oxidative stimuli, which in turn restores levels of insulin-like growth factor II, an important hormone for learning and memory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24012657

Here we report that treatment with acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR), a substance which has been shown to prevent some impairments of the aged CNS in experimental animals as well as in patients, is able to increase the levels and utilization of nerve growth factor (NGF) in the CNS of old rats. The stimulation of NGF levels in the CNS can be attained when ALCAR is given either for long or short periods to senescent animals of various ages, thus indicating a direct effect of the substance on the NGF system which is independent of the actual degenerative stage of the neurons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8187841

By increasing NGF expression, ALCAR grows the dendritic spines and prevents them from wasting away. This is of vital importance in LTP, as without healthy dendritic spines there are less synapses to potentiate.

So armed with Forskolin, Luteolin, Tyrosine, ALCAR, B-Complex, Minerals, and Agmatine, I have started on this new regimen. Results yesterday were stellar. I could think clearly, remember things I didn't think I even learned in the first place, an handled every challenge thrown at me with a clear and level head. No hint of mania, but a definite elevation of mood that was steady, insistent, and lasted throughout the day. Working memory was good, episodic memory good, long term memory excellent. I also recommend Methylxanthines of any kind (Caffeine, Theobromine, etc) to extend out the life of the enhancement. Once the initial Forskolin-dependant phase of cAMP increase is over (around 3 hours), the PDE inhibititory quality works to extend out the effects, as the initial phase of cAMP increase is over and done with, and levels just need to be maintained.

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but this thread is a beast and I'm wondering why is it that you take Luteolin? I'm assuming it's a replacement for Artichoke extract, so why that and not artichoke? Thanks.

[Jeoshua]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but this thread is a beast and I'm wondering why is it that you take Luteolin? I'm assuming it's a replacement for Artichoke extract, so why that and not artichoke? Thanks.

Because it's every bit as cheap as Artichoke extract and has fewer potential compounding factors. Most peoples' Artichoke Extract contains around 5-10mg of Luteolin and assorted chemicals related to it. The Luteolin Complex that I take has 50mg, and very much the same desired effect. It might seem like it's less potent, but when you consider that I'm getting the same effect from 100mg pills that others are getting from 500mg-1g pills... it's really not less potent at all.

Plus, the science done on PDE4 inhibition, the safety studies, toxicology studies, and all that are more often done on Luteolin, a chemical found in many different plants, than studies on Artichoke Extract.

Edited by Jeoshua, 23 January 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[waitwhatthe]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but this thread is a beast and I'm wondering why is it that you take Luteolin? I'm assuming it's a replacement for Artichoke extract, so why that and not artichoke? Thanks.

Because it's every bit as cheap as Artichoke extract and has fewer potential compounding factors. Most peoples' Artichoke Extract contains around 5-10mg of Luteolin and assorted chemicals related to it. The Luteolin Complex that I take has 50mg, and very much the same desired effect. It might seem like it's less potent, but when you consider that I'm getting the same effect from 100mg pills that others are getting from 500mg-1g pills... it's really not less potent at all.

Plus, the science done on PDE4 inhibition, the safety studies, toxicology studies, and all that are more often done on Luteolin, a chemical found in many different plants, than studies on Artichoke Extract.

That makes a ton of sense, thanks for the reply.

[renfr]

Is forskolin supposed to downregulate or upregulate cAMP receptors? If so is there a risk that the effect decrease overtime?
And what is the best time to take this supplement, at night or in the morning? I read somewhere forskolin makes some people sleepy.

[Droplet33]

Its been working on people that used it for more than 3 years, so it shouldn't be a problem, mind you its recommended to take a 1-2 days break per week to prevent some tolerance. Most people take it first thing in the morning and it last for until late evening.

CIltep make people sleepy at around 2PM (around 6-8 hours after intake), this is why ALCAR is recommended, to remove sleepiness.

[xsiv1]

I found it was the dopamine precursor that would wear off and account for the mid afternoon fatigue. I take the stack in the morning with about 4 to 5mg of Forskolin and ALCAR. Mid afternoon, I'll take NALT (350mgs) with a lower dose vitamin B/C complex vitamin. Eliminates any mental fatigue around 2pm. That's my experience after over a year of regular use with every other weekend of.

[DamnedOwl]

I found it was the dopamine precursor that would wear off and account for the mid afternoon fatigue. I take the stack in the morning with about 4 to 5mg of Forskolin and ALCAR. Mid afternoon, I'll take NALT (350mgs) with a lower dose vitamin B/C complex vitamin. Eliminates any mental fatigue around 2pm. That's my experience after over a year of regular use with every other weekend of.

I know you were taking a Peak ATP product for a time (at least) before. Did you find it beneficial?

[MercuryAX]

Re: PDE-inhibition anger, this is quite true. I ate a bunch of artichoke last night and I felt incredibly angry at the world, and for no good reason, really.

Still wondering why CILTEP worked once for me, and only for a few hours. AChe effects are probably too strong, and serotonin drain is not any good either. Does Tryptophan really work that much better than 5-HTP?

[xsiv1]

I found it was the dopamine precursor that would wear off and account for the mid afternoon fatigue. I take the stack in the morning with about 4 to 5mg of Forskolin and ALCAR. Mid afternoon, I'll take NALT (350mgs) with a lower dose vitamin B/C complex vitamin. Eliminates any mental fatigue around 2pm. That's my experience after over a year of regular use with every other weekend of.

I know you were taking a Peak ATP product for a time (at least) before. Did you find it beneficial?

While it could likely have been placebo, (I wouldn't notice anything cognitively to speak of), my workouts seemed to be able to last a while longer. I even ordered a second bottle to reassess, but I likely won't purchase anymore. Creatine, in fact, may result more beneficial effects, both physically and cognitively, in this regard - but it was worth a shot. It simply failed to bring me back from any mental fatigue. I found better cognitive effects with an NADH capsule and some sublingual M-B12.

[8lu3]

Hi,recently started the CILTEP stack at 3 caps in the morning. I have been on it for 2 days but have not noticed anything different. Does it take time to build up or are there supposed to be any noticeable affects from day 1.

I stopped my usual regime about a week before starting the CILTEP.

Any advice or will this be something that will be felt after a few weeks?

Thanks.

[Nootriment.com]

^^ I started feeling it right away, but the effect also became more pronounced afer about a week.


How many people have seen significant weight loss since they started using Forskolin? I've lost 10 pounds - pretty happy with that unexpected benefit!

[Droplet33]

I didn't see any change (i eat pretty low carb), but forskolin is often used in products designed for weight loss and body building.

A bit more info here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forskolin

Less chance of colon cancer as well, yay :D!

Edited by Droplet33, 31 January 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[renfr]

I'm not sure if this was discussed before (this thread is so long...) but when Abelard suggests 200mg caffeine in his first post, this might be a bad idea afterall.
This is the study I have found : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2172772
Apparently cAMP enhancement by forskolin acts synergistically with adenosine and caffeine seems to inhibit forskolin induced cAMP increase.

Maybe it would be much more interesting to not take it with caffeine or take it at night before sleeping, at least that's what I'm doing because each time I take forskolin I end up with tiredness hours after.
Also keep in mind that cAMP upregulates dopamine D2 receptors, it would be counterproductive to take it in the morning, taking it at sleep enhances sleep induced dopamine receptors upregulation and this in turn could end up with increased LTP, motivation and dopamine sensitivity during the day.


I still haven't noticed profound cognitive effects from forskolin however I can say that it's extremely potent concerning skin regeneration, my scars are fading extremely fastly and that's certainly the work of cAMP.

[merritt]

I see that CILTEP is back on sell with promotion click here : ) (ref)

[cat@]

Thanks for letting us know merritt. I get along well with that brand and that price seems doable.

[swen]

I'm not sure if this was discussed before (this thread is so long...) but when Abelard suggests 200mg caffeine in his first post, this might be a bad idea afterall.
This is the study I have found : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2172772
Apparently cAMP enhancement by forskolin acts synergistically with adenosine and caffeine seems to inhibit forskolin induced cAMP increase.

Maybe it would be much more interesting to not take it with caffeine or take it at night before sleeping, at least that's what I'm doing because each time I take forskolin I end up with tiredness hours after.
Also keep in mind that cAMP upregulates dopamine D2 receptors, it would be counterproductive to take it in the morning, taking it at sleep enhances sleep induced dopamine receptors upregulation and this in turn could end up with increased LTP, motivation and dopamine sensitivity during the day.


I still haven't noticed profound cognitive effects from forskolin however I can say that it's extremely potent concerning skin regeneration, my scars are fading extremely fastly and that's certainly the work of cAMP.

I think the idea is not to take the forskolin together with the caffeine. Take the forskolin and the caffeine separately.

[xsiv1]

I've always taken them together. Must be one of the lucky ones that still gets good effects from the combo. Idk

[Vindex]

Same with me. Take it all at the same time first thing in the morning, with more caffeine if I need an extra boost. I've taken them separately and it's never been the same thing, no clue why that is. Then again, I've never experienced the commonly reported side-effects of decreased working memory or impaired speech (never done any objective testing).

[abelard lindsay]

I recently posted an essay on my thoughts on the possible connection between Resveratrol's health benefits and CILTEP.

http://blog.naturals...pply-to-ciltep/

The TL;DR is that some research lately has said that Resveratrol's health benefits are due to its PDE4 inhibition. CILTEP is theoretically a PDE4 inhibitor stack and thus the same benefits should theoretically apply.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 February 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[taktikz]

I posted this in another thread and have only received a brief reply from Abelard:

I'm a bit worried as to what increasing cAMP levels can do to the body as I saw this on Wikipedia:
"If cAMP-dependent pathway is not controlled, it can ultimately lead to hyper-proliferation, which may contribute to the development and/or progression of cancer."
Which can be found here: http://en.wikipedia....pendent_pathway

To those that know about biology and chemistry, what does this statement mean and can the use of CILTEP contribute to developing cancer?

His response:
I got this question before and did some research over here:

http://www.longecity...post__p__616776

My TL;DR of it is that a normal pituitary cell that has become cancerous via a carcinogen or virus for example will have become defective such that it will not turn off its cAMP signaling causing things like acrolomegaly because cAMP signaling is uncontrolled in the pituitary. Permanently uncontrolled cAMP signaling is an mechanism of action for some cancer symptoms, but not the cause of cancer itself.

Forskolin and Artichoke have lots of studies showing cancer fighting effects that I reference in the discussion in the above link.

My following response:
Interesting... So would this be similar to Steroid usage or closer to Caffeine usage? That is my biggest concern.
Steroids are said to only contribute to cancer in those that may already have high probabilities of getting it as well.

In regards to the cancer fighting properties, I'm not sure one can justify usage if it assists in the development of another type.

As a recent and current user of CILTEP, I am most concerned about those with family histories of cancer using this product.

Edited by taktikz, 11 February 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[BlueCloud]

I have a question ( not directly related to CILTEP, wich I'm not taking ) about forskolin:
While reading through this thread , it's been hinted that forskolin can downregulate beta-adrenergic receptors. There's a study cited there that seems to suggest it, but it's far from being clear. Do we have any proof about this, or did anyone taking just forskolin by itself noticed becoming less stressed, less anxious after a while ?
This could be an interesting side-effect of forskolin for me ( I have very high baseline anxiety and in a constant fight-or-flight mode ), as there are very few things that can downregulate beta-adrenergic receptors.

Edited by BlueCloud, 11 February 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Meckin]

Thank you for all this information, sorry if this question has been asked already. This thread is too long to mine it all. I've looked around already, but really didn't see an answer.

I'm thinking of testing out Noopept, Piracetam, and Oxiracetam with Ciltep. Not all at the same time, but I have a few question.

First is anyone doing this already?

If so what doseage are you currently using?

Also, do you need something like Choline Bitartrate or Alpha-GPC if you start to take a racetam into the mix.


Thanks in advance!

[jadamgo]

Yes, I'm currently taking 10-20mg noopept per day and 2-3 capsules of my own CILTEP capsules daily. (2 days off CILTEP per week and 1 day off noopept.) It works fine. In fact I take less CILTEP now because I don't need as much -- the noopept is very helpful.

I've formerly done the same thing with oxiracetam and CILTEP. It's a nice combo, but not exactly synergistic -- I had to take 3-4 CILTEP caps per day then. But I still would recommend it to anyone interested in giving it a try. Sometimes I add a scoop or two of oxiracetam to what I'm already taking. It gets along well with everything, IMO, and helps to prevent the 2 hour crash that sometimes happens with noopept.

[swen]

Currently I'm on the resistant starch thing and it looks like it's working perfectly with CILTEP. I can feel the effects of CILTEP every day, and I don't need to cycle.

[DamnedOwl]

Currently I'm on the resistant starch thing and it looks like it's working perfectly with CILTEP. I can feel the effects of CILTEP every day, and I don't need to cycle.

How was CILTEP working for you before you started taking resistant starch? Has resistant starch improved the effects of CILTEP for you?

[swen]

Currently I'm on the resistant starch thing and it looks like it's working perfectly with CILTEP. I can feel the effects of CILTEP every day, and I don't need to cycle.

How was CILTEP working for you before you started taking resistant starch? Has resistant starch improved the effects of CILTEP for you?

It is hard to say because I didn't take them separately, I will be doing this soon.

I just have a more general feeling of wellbeing and I don't feel like I drained my body at the end of the busy productive CILTEP day. Also the effects of CILTEP I experience are more consistent everyday.

The main reason I take RS is for the health effects

[xsiv1]

Question for users of CILTEP. How long would you say you've been using it with consistent effects?

I'm now over one year of fairly consistent use first thing in the morning with my coffee and with ALCAR (588mgs) instead of the dopamine precursor. For me the L-PA or NALT was most often what brought the late afternoon crash. My dose of Forskolin is very small. I started the stack using 25mgs (unbeknownst to me and mainly due to ignorance), but quickly realized 10-15mgs worked better. Some time after, I've dropped those amounts to a consistent 3.5 to 5mgs.

In the afternoon, I'll take either NALT with a lower dose B/C complex but most often, NADH, Peak ATP, and some mB12. So, at least a year of use and no inkling of impaired verbal fluency for me. Perhaps my 10:30am dose of Piracetam helps, I'm not sure, but I'm sharpest in the morning after I've had a coffee.The Peak ATP is still an unknown but as cheap as I've been getting it with my Swanson offers, the placebo effect may be worth it lol.

Edited by xsiv1, 14 February 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[renfr]

Question for users of CILTEP. How long would you say you've been using it with consistent effects?

I'm now over one year of fairly consistent use first thing in the morning with my coffee and with ALCAR (588mgs) instead of the dopamine precursor. For me the L-PA or NALT was most often what brought the late afternoon crash. My dose of Forskolin is very small. I started the stack using 25mgs (unbeknownst to me and mainly due to ignorance), but quickly realized 10-15mgs worked better. Some time after, I've dropped those amounts to a consistent 3.5 to 5mgs.

In the afternoon, I'll take either NALT with a lower dose B/C complex but most often, NADH, Peak ATP, and some mB12. So, at least a year of use and no inkling of impaired verbal fluency for me. Perhaps my 10:30am dose of Piracetam helps, I'm not sure, but I'm sharpest in the morning after I've had a coffee.The Peak ATP is still an unknown but as cheap as I've been getting it with my Swanson offers, the placebo effect may be worth it lol.

What do you mean 10-15mg worked better, did you notice something particular that you didn't notice with 25mg?

[xsiv1]

Question for users of CILTEP. How long would you say you've been using it with consistent effects?

I'm now over one year of fairly consistent use first thing in the morning with my coffee and with ALCAR (588mgs) instead of the dopamine precursor. For me the L-PA or NALT was most often what brought the late afternoon crash. My dose of Forskolin is very small. I started the stack using 25mgs (unbeknownst to me and mainly due to ignorance), but quickly realized 10-15mgs worked better. Some time after, I've dropped those amounts to a consistent 3.5 to 5mgs.

In the afternoon, I'll take either NALT with a lower dose B/C complex but most often, NADH, Peak ATP, and some mB12. So, at least a year of use and no inkling of impaired verbal fluency for me. Perhaps my 10:30am dose of Piracetam helps, I'm not sure, but I'm sharpest in the morning after I've had a coffee.The Peak ATP is still an unknown but as cheap as I've been getting it with my Swanson offers, the placebo effect may be worth it lol.

What do you mean 10-15mg worked better, did you notice something particular that you didn't notice with 25mg?

I meant that once I realized that I was actually taking around 25mgs of active forskolii, I dropped my dosage to around 10-15. This worked better than 25 surely because I didn't experience much of a slump. The stack started off with a recommended dosage of about 10-15mgs of Forskolin and as it was fine-tuned, the dosage dropped to <5mgs which, for me, is ideal. I don't experience any crash from it. Somewhere around there I was consistently using a dopamine precursor and I had L-PA, DLPA and NALT. I preferred NALT over all the others personally although I have each a chance. I knew from long ago that, for whatever reason, L-Tyrosine @ 500mgs was a bit too anxiogenic for me. Anyways, NALT worked well but I'd still crash around 2pm. I replaced it with ALCAR and use NALT on occasion in the mid afternoon. This is what works for me the best...a low dose of Forskolin and ALCAR combined with the 900mgs Artichoke. I've never had any side effects other than what I've mentioned.