2626 replies to this topic

[abelard lindsay]

You guys see this Rolipram/Forskolin weight study? I have pretty much been about the same weight for a long time even though I don't eat perfectly and I have a job where I sit all day. One thing I find interesting about the study is forskolin alone or rolipram alone where less effective than both together.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24520882

Biotech Histochem. 2014 Feb 13. [Epub ahead of print]
The effects of forskolin and rolipram on cAMP, cGMP and free fatty acid levels in diet induced obesity.
Doseyici S, Mehmetoglu I, Toker A, Yerlikaya F, Erbay E.
Author information

Abstract

Obesity is a major health problem. We investigated the effects of forskolin and rolipram in the diet of animals in which obesity had been induced. We used 50 female albino Wistar rats that were assigned randomly into five groups as follows: group 1, control; group 2, high fat diet; group 3, high fat diet + forskolin; group 4, high fat diet + rolipram; and group 5, high fat diet + rolipram + forskolin. The rats were fed for 10 weeks and rolipram and forskolin were administered during last two weeks. The animals were sacrificed and blood samples were obtained. Serum cAMP, cGMP and free fatty acids (FFA) levels were measured using ELISA assays. We also measured weight gain during the 10 week period. cAMP and FFA levels of groups 3, 4 and 5 were significantly higher than those of groups 1 and 2. We found no significant differences in serum cGMP levels among the groups. The weight gain in groups 3, 4 and 5 was significantly less than for group 2. We also found that the weight gain in group 5 was significantly less than in groups 3 and 4. We found that both forskolin and rolipram stimulated lipolysis and inhibited body weight increase by increasing cAMP levels. Also, combination therapy using the two agents may be more effective in preventing diet induced obesity than either agent alone. We found also that these agents did not effect cellular cGMP levels in diet induced obesity.

[8bitmore]

Extremely interesting study, I can personally feel the upped metabolism from Forskolin alone quite easily so the effects of the combination makes sense to me. Do you ever have problems with emetic aspect of Rolipram? (sorry, I'm sure this is answered elsewhere, but what dosage are you currently on again? (Forskolin/Rolipram)). Also, where do you source Rolipram from?

You guys see this Rolipram/Forskolin weight study? I have pretty much been about the same weight for a long time even though I don't eat perfectly and I have a job where I sit all day. One thing I find interesting about the study is forskolin alone or rolipram alone where less effective than both together.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24520882

Biotech Histochem. 2014 Feb 13. [Epub ahead of print]
The effects of forskolin and rolipram on cAMP, cGMP and free fatty acid levels in diet induced obesity.
Doseyici S, Mehmetoglu I, Toker A, Yerlikaya F, Erbay E.
Author information

Abstract

Obesity is a major health problem. We investigated the effects of forskolin and rolipram in the diet of animals in which obesity had been induced. We used 50 female albino Wistar rats that were assigned randomly into five groups as follows: group 1, control; group 2, high fat diet; group 3, high fat diet + forskolin; group 4, high fat diet + rolipram; and group 5, high fat diet + rolipram + forskolin. The rats were fed for 10 weeks and rolipram and forskolin were administered during last two weeks. The animals were sacrificed and blood samples were obtained. Serum cAMP, cGMP and free fatty acids (FFA) levels were measured using ELISA assays. We also measured weight gain during the 10 week period. cAMP and FFA levels of groups 3, 4 and 5 were significantly higher than those of groups 1 and 2. We found no significant differences in serum cGMP levels among the groups. The weight gain in groups 3, 4 and 5 was significantly less than for group 2. We also found that the weight gain in group 5 was significantly less than in groups 3 and 4. We found that both forskolin and rolipram stimulated lipolysis and inhibited body weight increase by increasing cAMP levels. Also, combination therapy using the two agents may be more effective in preventing diet induced obesity than either agent alone. We found also that these agents did not effect cellular cGMP levels in diet induced obesity.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I've started a thread where I'm trying to tweak my ciltep usage to obtain a better benefit, in case anyone is interested in how that plays out or may wish to offer advice: http://www.longecity...tep-sweet-spot/

[finalgates]

i want to increase my cAMP for increased testosterone production.i must take artichoke too?or forkolin only is good to go?i am thinking 25mg forskolin a day

[abelard lindsay]

Extremely interesting study, I can personally feel the upped metabolism from Forskolin alone quite easily so the effects of the combination makes sense to me. Do you ever have problems with emetic aspect of Rolipram?

Nobody as far as I know takes Rolipram because of the emetic effects. I usually look at the herbal pde4 inhibitors like luteolin or Zembrin as less effective versions of Rolipram that nevertheless have some effectiveness. This is the technique I've been using throughout the thread to try and understand how CILTEP might work.

As far as dosages of all this goes, I would refer back to the first page of the thread.

[8bitmore]

Thanks for explaining. I have been dipping sporadically in on this thread so had forgot the rolipram-as-examplifying-pd4-inhibitor maxim (personal note: I'll soon try using Zembrin instead of artichoke-extract since I have never felt more from the Forskolin/Artichoke combination than I have from Forskolin alone).

Extremely interesting study, I can personally feel the upped metabolism from Forskolin alone quite easily so the effects of the combination makes sense to me. Do you ever have problems with emetic aspect of Rolipram?

Nobody as far as I know takes Rolipram because of the emetic effects. I usually look at the herbal pde4 inhibitors like luteolin or Zembrin as less effective versions of Rolipram that nevertheless have some effectiveness. This is the technique I've been using throughout the thread to try and understand how CILTEP might work.

As far as dosages of all this goes, I would refer back to the first page of the thread.

[rbgilbert06]

I've done my own research on the CILTEP stack and I realized that Forskolin increases progesterone- a beneficial hormone for both men and women.

I have some concerns in regard to potential side effects of long-term CILTEP.

• Could we see physiological issues in healthy men that have above-normal progesterone levels from daily doses of Forskolin?

• Also, if we're increasing progesterone levels, is there a risk of hormone insensitivity or an impaired ability for us to make that hormone when we get off the stack?
• Because progesterone increases IGF-1, could Forskolin accelerate the aging process?

I mentioned a concern to Abelard about the up-regulation of D2 receptors via CAMP levels, but now I see it's not exactly a bad thing. This article helped me better understand that more D2 could be better for unlatching from unhealthy addictions like smoking or simply increasing willpower.

2 days after starting the CILTEP stack, without any of this in mind, I curbed my smoking significantly and even implemented a system where if I decided that I wanted to have a cigarette, I would purposely wait 10 minutes to forego instant gratification. The point was to gauge and lessen my addiction and it worked! I throw out the word addiction willy-nilly, but everything from sugar binging to my 3-5 cigarettes a day to cocaine are all likely mediated by this same system and might all benefit in the same way.

Edited by rbgilbert06, 20 February 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[rbgilbert06]

please delete mod, im dumb

Edited by rbgilbert06, 20 February 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Sholrak]

A silly question not totally related to ciltep.
I tried once some days ago eating an artichoke pill and got bad stomach ache and acidity, although I got the normal therapeutic effect.

The almost-full bottle of Artichoke I own has humidified. I guess that was what has turned all the powder inside the pills a solid. Is it safe crushing the 'rock' inside each pill with a mortar ie., to make it powder or at least smaller pieces and put that again in the capsule to consume it? is the material still safe to take?

Edited by Sholrak, 20 February 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Here's an important note not yet in this thread: forskolin is fat soluble. So today I took my ciltep stack with a teaspoon of olive oil.

[8bitmore]

A silly question not totally related to ciltep.
I tried once some days ago eating an artichoke pill and got bad stomach ache and acidity, although I got the normal therapeutic effect.

The almost-full bottle of Artichoke I own has humidified. I guess that was what has turned all the powder inside the pills a solid. Is it safe crushing the 'rock' inside each pill with a mortar ie., to make it powder or at least smaller pieces and put that again in the capsule to consume it? is the material still safe to take?

My bottle of Artichoke extract is exactly the same (shrivelled up inside capsules); actually they were in that condition upon arrival (Now brand via iherb). To be honest I never had that much of an effect from them but they never seemed harmful or adverse to the body in any way whatsoever.

edit:typo

Edited by 8bitmore, 21 February 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[truboy]

Guys what effects you are getting from Forskolin on motivation/mood/social.

I am thinking about trying Forskolin to upregulate striatal dopamine d2 receptors, which is the main pleasure circuit of the brain and responsible for motivation, social respond, etc... Seems like it should have very positive effect.

[Vindex]

I don't take it in social contexts as it exacerbates my social anxiety, but in terms of mood and motivation it's had dramatic effects for me, as in: before ciltep > useless; after ciltep > not useless.

[Sholrak]

A silly question not totally related to ciltep.
I tried once some days ago eating an artichoke pill and got bad stomach ache and acidity, although I got the normal therapeutic effect.

The almost-full bottle of Artichoke I own has humidified. I guess that was what has turned all the powder inside the pills a solid. Is it safe crushing the 'rock' inside each pill with a mortar ie., to make it powder or at least smaller pieces and put that again in the capsule to consume it? is the material still safe to take?

My bottle of Artichoke extract is exactly the same (shrivelled up inside capsules); actually they were in that condition upon arrival (Now brand via iherb). To be honest I never had that much of an effect from them but they never seemed harmful or adverse to the body in any way whatsoever.

edit:typo

I have a NOW brand too. Well if they're not detrimental, would they loose it's effect somewhat?

Anyone else who has suffered this specific matter?

[xsiv1]

A silly question not totally related to ciltep.
I tried once some days ago eating an artichoke pill and got bad stomach ache and acidity, although I got the normal therapeutic effect.

The almost-full bottle of Artichoke I own has humidified. I guess that was what has turned all the powder inside the pills a solid. Is it safe crushing the 'rock' inside each pill with a mortar ie., to make it powder or at least smaller pieces and put that again in the capsule to consume it? is the material still safe to take?

My bottle of Artichoke extract is exactly the same (shrivelled up inside capsules); actually they were in that condition upon arrival (Now brand via iherb). To be honest I never had that much of an effect from them but they never seemed harmful or adverse to the body in any way whatsoever.

edit:typo

I have a NOW brand too. Well if they're not detrimental, would they loose it's effect somewhat?

Anyone else who has suffered this specific matter?

I've had that issue with Jarrow brand. Unfortunately, those were 500mgs. I purchased a fresh bottle of NOW Brand and kept it in the garage where it's cold but not freezing and it's still powdery. I continued using the Jarrow until I was finished but it was difficult getting out 100mgs each time. I didn't notice any loss in the overall effect but I also didn't measure anything objectively. My experience is entirely subjective.

It's best to try and keep in a cool area but if it's coming from somewhere where it's been sitting in a humid room or for a while, I'm thinking any AE is prone to solidify like that.

[finalgates]

forskolin is water or lipid soluble?so on empty stomach or with food?because someone said lipid soluble

Edited by finalgates, 24 February 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

if you do a google search, everything indicated that forskolin is fat soluble, though no one had mentioned that previously. People had seen such great results with it that it likely wouldn't matter for them, but my results have been less noticeable so I was looking for ways to make it more effective.

[pbandy1]

I just can't do CILTEP anymore. I need to sleep like 11-12 hrs just to feel normal. Has happened every time and I have too much to do in the day to sleep more than 8 hrs.

[abelard lindsay]

There's some interesting anecdotal comments about Lions Mane + CILTEP over here:

http://www.longecity...post__p__645951

[Jeoshua]

I've been using Lion's Mane, as part of my night-time stack, along with Forskolii and Luteolin in the daytime. It certainly seems like it has an antagonistic effect on the PDE Inhibition of the stack, but actually on those occasions I have taken the Lion's Mane instead on the Luteolin, I could feel the increased synthesis, firing, and reuptake of cAMP much more definitely. Unlike PDE Inhibitors, Lion's Mane contains a Kappa Opoid Agonist property, which increases the activity of PDE. This reuptake, along with increase in NGF and BDNF, may help to activate the secondary and longest term potentiations, with lasting changes to synaptic regions measured in days/weeks. </theory>

Edited by Jeoshua, 26 February 2014 - 02:34 AM.

[MercuryAX]

I just can't do CILTEP anymore. I need to sleep like 11-12 hrs just to feel normal. Has happened every time and I have too much to do in the day to sleep more than 8 hrs.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I need a ridiculous amount of sleep while on CILTEP, even if I take less than a normal dose. Plus, I get very bad depression the next day after taking it. It's only been a positive experience one time - for a few hours - where I was extremely productive and felt like God. I'm starting to wonder what could cause this.

Abelard, have you seen any more information that might help to explain why CILTEP doesn't work for some people? Or perhaps why it has the sleep-inducing effects despite the ALCAR added?

[abelard lindsay]

Abelard, have you seen any more information that might help to explain why CILTEP doesn't work for some people? Or perhaps why it has the sleep-inducing effects despite the ALCAR added?

When I'm supplement debugging and I get something weird or interesting happening with a supplement I'll do a quick braverman deficiency test to check on what's going on with my neurochem. So, if I was in your situation I would see what happened after I crashed on CILTEP by doing a quick braverman deficiency test and then try and go from there in terms of debugging what it's doing.


FYI, test is here:

http://advancedpsych...verman.test.pdf

[chung_pao]

My approach for getting the most out of this mechanism lately. It's not exactly the CILTEP-stack, but I get much better results from this, and it utilizes the same mechanism.

Morning: Before breakfast:
Artichoke extract 500-1000 mg
Huperzine A 100-200 mcg
Green tea 6g (about 100-120 mg caffeine and some EGCG included)
Iron supplementation: Very low. 25-50% of RDI.

The effect is incredible. Although Huperzine makes it less sustainable for daily use, due to build-up (very long half-life), it's an exciting addition.
*Huperzine A helps me preserve working memory and verbal fluency while getting the benefits of the stack. The resultant effect is very good, without the deterioration in fluency I originally got from this stack. The effects are unlike ALCAR.
With the normal stack, I found myself mute and at a loss for words very often. Huperzine corrects this and allows you to be quicker on your feet.

*Iron supplementation. This made a very big difference for me. Either the stack increases iron-requirements, or I was simply deficient.
Iron is necessary for CYP-enzymes (drug metabolism), dopamine and neurotransmitter synthesis (Tyrosine hydroxylase has a iron-center), and other things.
Check your intake before supplementing. Only include if you're deficient.

*Don't combine tea/caffeine with forskolin. They are antagonistic and cancel each other out. It will only leave you fatigued/depressed due to adenosine-receptor interactions.

Not saying this is better or anything, but if you're curious, I'd definitely recommend you trying it out.

...

Jeoshua. You've tried both Luteolin and Artichoke extract. Hopefully you can answer this question for me.
Does luteolin has less of a sedative effect than Artichoke? At times, artichoke can be a bit sedative.
For example, if you're amped up on caffeine, and then add artichoke, I can feel the addition of GABA-ergic mechanisms working, having some negative effects.
Might this be less noticeable with pure Luteolin instead of Artichoke extract? Because of the exclusion of things like Apigenin.
Also: is the half-life shorter/different with Luteolin?

I just can't do CILTEP anymore. I need to sleep like 11-12 hrs just to feel normal. Has happened every time and I have too much to do in the day to sleep more than 8 hrs.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I need a ridiculous amount of sleep while on CILTEP, even if I take less than a normal dose. Plus, I get very bad depression the next day after taking it. It's only been a positive experience one time - for a few hours - where I was extremely productive and felt like God. I'm starting to wonder what could cause this.

Abelard, have you seen any more information that might help to explain why CILTEP doesn't work for some people? Or perhaps why it has the sleep-inducing effects despite the ALCAR added?

Just halve your dose?
I find 900-1000 mg artichoke extract takes at least 24h for an almost complete elimination in my case.
For me, 450-500 mg permits me to use it again the next day without tolerance.
Alternatively, leave out the forskolin and replace with another dopaminergic.

Edited by chung_pao, 26 February 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Godof Smallthings]

Interesting. What green tea supplement are you using (I am assuming that is what it is, rather than loose green tea leaves?).

[xsiv1]

My approach for getting the most out of this mechanism lately. It's not exactly the CILTEP-stack, but I get much better results from this, and it utilizes the same mechanism.

Morning: Before breakfast:
Artichoke extract 500-1000 mg
Huperzine A 100-200 mcg
Green tea 6g (about 100-120 mg caffeine and some EGCG included)
Iron supplementation: Very low. 25-50% of RDI.

The effect is incredible. Although Huperzine makes it less sustainable for daily use, due to build-up (very long half-life), it's an exciting addition.
*Huperzine A helps me preserve working memory and verbal fluency while getting the benefits of the stack. The resultant effect is very good, without the deterioration in fluency I originally got from this stack. The effects are unlike ALCAR.
With the normal stack, I found myself mute and at a loss for words very often. Huperzine corrects this and allows you to be quicker on your feet.

*Iron supplementation. This made a very big difference for me. Either the stack increases iron-requirements, or I was simply deficient.
Iron is necessary for CYP-enzymes (drug metabolism), dopamine and neurotransmitter synthesis (Tyrosine hydroxylase has a iron-center), and other things.
Check your intake before supplementing. Only include if you're deficient.

*Don't combine tea/caffeine with forskolin. They are antagonistic and cancel each other out. It will only leave you fatigued/depressed due to adenosine-receptor interactions.

Not saying this is better or anything, but if you're curious, I'd definitely recommend you trying it out.

...

Jeoshua. You've tried both Luteolin and Artichoke extract. Hopefully you can answer this question for me.
Does luteolin has less of a sedative effect than Artichoke? At times, artichoke can be a bit sedative.
For example, if you're amped up on caffeine, and then add artichoke, I can feel the addition of GABA-ergic mechanisms working, having some negative effects.
Might this be less noticeable with pure Luteolin instead of Artichoke extract? Because of the exclusion of things like Apigenin.
Also: is the half-life shorter/different with Luteolin?

I just can't do CILTEP anymore. I need to sleep like 11-12 hrs just to feel normal. Has happened every time and I have too much to do in the day to sleep more than 8 hrs.

Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I need a ridiculous amount of sleep while on CILTEP, even if I take less than a normal dose. Plus, I get very bad depression the next day after taking it. It's only been a positive experience one time - for a few hours - where I was extremely productive and felt like God. I'm starting to wonder what could cause this.

Abelard, have you seen any more information that might help to explain why CILTEP doesn't work for some people? Or perhaps why it has the sleep-inducing effects despite the ALCAR added?

Just halve your dose?
I find 900-1000 mg artichoke extract takes at least 24h for an almost complete elimination in my case.
For me, 450-500 mg permits me to use it again the next day without tolerance.
Alternatively, leave out the forskolin and replace with another dopaminergic.

It's with all due respect that I ask this but how are you coming to some of your definitive statements regarding artichoke's clearance from your system and iron. I'm hoping your iron statement was through objective testing since most men, at least those with protein-rich diets rarely ever need iron and even in small dosages, my concern would be over accumulating it. It can be stored in practically every organ I can think of. I'm more curious, but I do thank you for offering some excellent insight into the stack from your physiology.

We apparently have contradictory effects from the very compounds we've both tried and the ones you've mentioned. I wish the CILTEP stack made me sleep longer lol. I'm active every day, both aerobically and through resistance exercise. I eat cleanly and avoid processed foods and high glycemic indexed foods. I'm older though (finished grad school in 2000) and, of course, everyone is different. What strikes me more is that some of the compounds that have worked for you, seemingly do the opposite for me lol. Lastly, I know it's been mentioned in this thread about Forskolin and caffeine having an antagonistic relationship, but I no longer get the afternoon slump since I've taken the dopamine precursor out of the stack. Thing is, I love my morning coffee and that when I take my stack as well. Caffeine can stay in your system for some time but it's antagonistic effect may not last as long. I'm wondering if I took the stack an hour or two later if it'd be even more effective.

Edited by xsiv1, 26 February 2014 - 09:41 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Jeoshua. You've tried both Luteolin and Artichoke extract. Hopefully you can answer this question for me.
Does luteolin has less of a sedative effect than Artichoke? At times, artichoke can be a bit sedative.
For example, if you're amped up on caffeine, and then add artichoke, I can feel the addition of GABA-ergic mechanisms working, having some negative effects.
Might this be less noticeable with pure Luteolin instead of Artichoke extract? Because of the exclusion of things like Apigenin.
Also: is the half-life shorter/different with Luteolin?

Luteolin, itself, is not sedating. It actually bears some similarity in effect to Caffeine, in my experience, without the wakefullness promotion. It is somewhat less effective by weight for the PDE inhibition, however, but that doesn't matter because the source is so much more pure. Around 50 mg does the job of around 500mg Artichoke extract, in my experience, without any of the other effects of Artichoke.

But I never noticed a sedative effect with either Luteolin or Artichoke, personally.

[abelard lindsay]

I was reading over some old pubmed PDE4 classics and noticed that Rolipram has very statistically significant effects for learning 24 hours after training but has little effect on short term memory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9844008

I'm referring specifically to this test:


I know there are a lot of people who like to meticulously practice quantified self and if they are only using short term memory tests to quantify CILTEP's effects they may not be getting the whole picture. Does anybody know if there's a good quantified self site for testing long term memory?

Edited by abelard lindsay, 27 February 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[chung_pao]

I was reading over some old pubmed PDE4 classics and noticed that Rolipram has very statistically significant effects for learning 24 hours after training but has little effect on short term memory.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9844008

I'm referring specifically to this test:


I know there are a lot of people who like to meticulously practice quantified self and if they are only using short term memory tests to quantify CILTEP's effects they may not be getting the whole picture. Does anybody know if there's a good quantified self site for testing long term memory?

You could create your own test, with something like object recognition, or recognition of patterns.
For example different combinations of playing carbs, or pictures of objects, or number sequences.
Do the first test on Day 1, then test again the next day (Day 2), to observe how well you can replicate the data from Day 1.
Then do the same without CILTEP.

For example:
Monday: 1 hour after dosing (9 AM): Use a card sequence of numbers or symbols.
Tuesday: Try to replicate it. See how well you remember it.

Then do the same without CILTEP.

I think long-term memory tests will be based on this same principle, testing recognition after consolidation, or over several days.

I'm still amazed at the effects CILTEP has on me.
I workout between 6-7 PM a few days a week.
If I do this while on ciltep, or even just artichoke by itself, my body will "learn" this activity and produce a response the next day.
For example, I worked out very intensely with kettlebells, a few sets of 50-100 repetitions, on Monday. I had also taken CILTEP that day.
On Tuesday, somewhere between 24-26h after my workout, my body responded very intensely. I could feel adrenaline levels, heart rate, and all the markers of intense physical activity rise, as if I was actually working out.
The effect is so marked I can barely sit still.
In short: stimulation received on Day 1, will be more consolidated/habituated than usual on Day 2.

This is not a one time occurrence; I've been able to replicate it, and it makes me think CILTEP facilitates physical adaptations as well.
This makes sense, seeing as the PDE-inhibition from artichoke is pretty systemic.

Edited by chung_pao, 28 February 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[Frigo]

I'm working on a modified version of CILTEP that would increase N-Acetylserotonin and sensitize TrkB receptors through cAMP (see /r/Nootropics thread for details).

N-Acetylserotonin production kicks in at the evening, however, Forskolin and Artichoke are ill suited for evening administration due to being too stimulatory.

Is there any way to increase cAMP (in areas targeted by N-Acetylserotonin), that does not result in overt stimulation and could easily allow sleep?

Edited by Frigo, 02 March 2014 - 02:20 AM.

[abcmanomandriepunt1]

i think as someone with mild schizophrenia i might profit from pde4 inhibtion solely, without the forloskin, but since i´m on a ssri i´m not sure which one would be the most safe (artichoke?) cause i understand they all have mao a properties. If i'm not mistaking that might cause too much serotonin, or am i wrong on that part? safety first

Edited by tylerdurden, 09 March 2014 - 08:23 PM.