2626 replies to this topic

[AmpleBeingdotcom]

 

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience and don't support what is coming from this wonderful resource.
 
There are other alternatives for this supplement available if you do not want to support their business practices.
 
Let me know if i can help you in any way moving forward.

I know you're trying to be helpful, but I honestly have never seen a more crass display of customer-service-speak in all my life.

And I've worked for Time Warner Cable.

 

 

Jeoshua,

 

Sorry that wasn't the intention. Just felt that he deserved to know that they are not the only option and if people don't want to support them they are not forced to do so.

 

Just seems that we have received a decent amount of customers mentioning similar stories, so i wanted to look into where they were coming from.

[Droplet33]

I didn't had a bad experience coming from Natural Stacks as a customer, they were nothing but helpful and efficient . I think the cutting edge supplements they created so far are amazing! But i still think what is happening around "CILTEP" (a word who have been used over here for a looong time) ending up being registered, is wrong. Mind you, its a catch 22..if they didn't do it themselves first, someone else could have done it and then start to sue them.

 

Oh the joys of IP legal system ..If it had existed in the stone age, we'd still be living in it!

 

I had the time to cool off a bit and think over more practically. So far the only thing that came up to me is longecity or people posting their stuff mark it as under some sort of "Creative Common" license, like in the open source media and software industries.

This is my last comment on the matter in this thread, it have been polluted enough as it is. If someone want to further go down this road, i suggest to start another thread.

 

 

Edited by Droplet33, 12 April 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

I have recently started a course of Moclobemide, a reversible MAO-A inhibitor, which amongst other things supposedly creates new serotonergic connections, could someone advice me if it might be a good idea to combine it with the ciltep stack, given the supposedly intensified neurotransmission that will follow in the next weeks? I might or might not skip the Tyrosine given the dopamine breakdown of the Moclobemide (which has low affinity for dopamine anyway)

Edited by magniloquentc0unt, 15 April 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Judd Crane]

Anyone with experiences with SAMe + CILTEP? I'm curious to try SAMe with artichoke to negate the serotonergic effects but I worry it might be too strong.

[matter_of_time]

Does anyone use agmatine to boost the camp levels?

[Leonhard Euler]

Has anyone stacked ciltep with alpha brain?

[1337]

More and more I am seeing that the mixing of ANY of the racetams with CILTeP causes diminishing returns. After a week of abstinence from any and all racetams the CILTeP effect becomes much more apparent. I have recently begun to experiment with adding noopept to the mixture...both with and without racetam assistance. We shall see.

[tazzz96]

More and more I am seeing that the mixing of ANY of the racetams with CILTeP causes diminishing returns. After a week of abstinence from any and all racetams the CILTeP effect becomes much more apparent.

I have recently begun to experiment with adding noopept to the mixture...both with and without racetam assistance.
We shall see.

I've been using CILTEP with piracetam and I thought its been quite good to be honest. Do you mean it gets worse over time, or you just get less effects from CILTEP?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[1337]

I have noticed a lower "ceiling" on the CILTeP effect when combined with racetams.

[Mr Matsubayashi]

I've had a terrible experience with natural stacks. They have my money and I have no product.

 

I placed the order in October 2013 and have dealt with two different people. Both seemed really helpful over email and said they would send the product to me, a month passed with each and when I followed up asking what's going on? Do you have a tracking number? I get no reply. 

 

I have given up and I'm now sourcing CILTEP through other means.

 

 

Buyer be wary.....

[tazzz96]

I have noticed a lower "ceiling" on the CILTeP effect when combined with racetams.

But would you say that you still get the benefits of both when taken together, just the CILTeP is less than if taken alone?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[1337]

Yes Sir, that is precisely what I mean.

[inspired]

Increased salivation on CILTEP?

 

I've been taking a homemade CILTEP stack for about a week now. Definite benefits for mood and focus, but I'm also noticing some increased salivation.

 

Stack, on empty stomach:

• NOW Arthichoke 2x450mg 
• Enzymatic Therapy Forskolin, half a capsule 4.5mg 
• NOW L-Phenylalanine 500mg
• NOW Adam, half a tablet 
• Piracetam 800-1600 mg (might be low dose for some but I'm a good responder and found this to be my sweet spot even before CILTEP) 

 

I can feel the effects kicking in within an hour and salivation also picks up around that time.  It's actually not bothersome, but I never had this reaction to any supplement before. Does this mean anything? 

[Charles J. Daniels]

lucky you -- I'd be curious to know about causes of extra saliva too. More than once I had these salivary fits that lasted for like two hours or more. I'm not kidding. I was filling cups in my room. It was seriously tiresome after a certain point, I was so fed up I just progressed to spitting on the floor until it was over. Not related to ciltep.

[inspired]

Haha, luckily it's not that bad. It's actually rather pleasant, mildly refreshing. Chewing seems a little more fun and meals are more enjoyable and who knows, perhaps digestion is also improved. 

 

I'm just curious what's going on and if it might be a red flag. 

[chris7900]

guys, how long do the effects of forskolin and artichoke pde4 inhibition last ?

i ve searched but i cant find an answer

[Nattzor]

http://www.reddit.co...iltep_debunked/

[somethingstrange]

Has anybody combined forskolin with vinpocetine ( potent pde-1 inhibitor )

[magta39]

I tried CLTP in various doses and forms, with and without vinpocetine, among other things, for 6 months and kept a journal of my experiences.  I experienced  somewhat improved mood and sociability but decreased working memory.

[Charles J. Daniels]

There was a suggestion of adding agmatine to the stack to address working memory issues, and I recall a feeling of success from the person who first suggested it. It's hoped to be picking the right parts of the brain to counter the effects we don't need that cause the working memory issue, but as I recall it's not necessarily expected to fully work that way. I'd search this thread for agmatine if you want to read the actual posts.

 

I tried CLTP in various doses and forms....  I experienced ... decreased working memory.

 

[ZHMike]

I was just thinking this thread died off.. now here it is.  Like everyone else over time I had perceived less working memory... also for the first few weeks I had a great energy boost but that dropped off.  I wonder if Abelard has any updates.. hes the brains of this thread... 

[somethingstrange]

I found this research "α2A-adrenoceptor stimulation improves prefrontal cortical regulation of behavior through inhibition of cAMP signaling in aging animals"

Quote

"The working-memory functions of the prefrontal cortex (PFC) are improved by stimulation of postsynaptic, α2A-adrenoceptors, especially in aged animals with PFC cognitive deficits. Thus, the α2A-adrenoceptor agonist, guanfacine, greatly improves working-memory performance in monkeys and rats following systemic administration or intra-PFC infusion. α2A-adrenoceptors are generally coupled to G_i, which can inhibit adenylyl cyclases and reduce the production of cAMP. However, no study has directly examined whether the working-memory enhancement observed with guanfacine or other α2A-adrenoceptor agonists results from cAMP inhibition."

 

 

"The varying influences of norepinephrine (NE) and cAMP on working memory vs. long-term memory consolidation are especially striking. Whereas memory consolidation is strengthened by stimulation of β-adrenoceptors and the production of cAMP, working memory appears to be enhanced by stimulation of α2A-adrenoceptors and the inhibition of cAMP signaling."

Edited by labratdream, 07 August 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[dancarlin0]

http://www.reddit.co...iltep_debunked/

 

/thread
 

[gizmobrain]

http://www.reddit.co...iltep_debunked/

/thread

I appreciate people continuing to look into the mechanisms behind this stack.

Your pronouncement of "/thread" is arrogant at best. The reddit author's title of "debunked" shows how desperate people are to get attention by disproving things instead of finding novel applications of scientific research.

Tell me why I've went from being unable to hold down a job and living in my parents basement to where I am today (full time job, wife, house, car, etc).

Explain to me the mechanism of action that makes that possible.

Tell me why, on days that I don't take my stack, that I feel exactly like I used to: unfocused, unmotivated, poor planning, constantly late.

Explain why I've been able to take control of my body for the last 2 years when it has continually fought me for my entire life.

That's what I want to know. Stop thinking that its enough to "disprove" mechanisms proposed, and then walking away, thinking you are better than the folks in this thread. It's lazy. If you are smart enough to read articles and piece things together, then stick around and have a dialogue for a bit, and propose new theories.

[chris106]

What about the many people that CILTEP does absolutely nothing for, or even has negative effects?

That would include me, by the way. And there are just as much anecdotal reports like mine as there are glowing reviews for CILTEP. At best it works for some people - but appearantly not for everyone.  Also, the author of this reddit thread gave lots of good references and studies to back up his points.

I'm neither saying that CILTEP doesn't work for some people, nor that Abelard had anything else than great intentions.

But if anything I guess this reddit thread goes to show that simply because someone can back up his findings and claims with a few medical studies, that doesn't automatically mean it's all true and fact. Studies can be misinterpreted and there are a lot of factors and circumstances to put in into conscideration with each single study. Sometimes studies are even wrongy interpreted by the very poeple who did them in the first place - it happens.

If the author was able to cite some studies himself that would (at first glance) actually disprove the effectiveness of some mechanisms of CILTEP, then it is just as much his right to do so!

You saying that he only does that because he's "desperate for attention" is based on abolute no valid argument.

I think it's allways better to go on re-searching and double-checking instead of just accepting claims as facts - especially when it is about a a supplement that is heavily marketed - and don't tell me that's not the case with CILTEP these days!

Glad that it helped you - it doens't seem to have made you more tolerant towards other people's opinions, though.

Edited by chris106, 10 August 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I am a ciltep non-responder that hasn't taken the time to see if there are benefits over time not ushered in by obvious wows on day one like others get. I'm not a fan of the use of the word debunked in that article.

 

Debunked is a definitive final kinda thing to say, like it's all been determined.

 

This 83 page monster thread isn't just one person preaching from the pulpit -- there are collaborations, research, link after link to studies, and a general mission of search. That's something I certainly ~do~ like about that "debunked" article -- it's one more piece of input on the story, another angle to look at it through, and like most of the participation here, it's not just theoro-babble. But as we all know, research and references don't always play out the way we might expect.

 

Here's the piece I would want to run into next: if the "debunked" article is accurate in describing the why behind non-responders, I'd like to hear more ideas on what is then the force behind the various responders. If it's not improved LTP, then what, if it's not the luteolin, then which component, etc. That would be a great next piece.

[gizmobrain]

Glad that it helped you - it doens't seem to have made you more tolerant towards other people's opinions, though.

You may notice I've been around this thread for two years, and seen hundreds of good natured, but ignorant folks say some pretty uninspired things. At times, I've camped out and tried to help them learn. I've never been aggravated by that.

And it's true, I appreciate the research that was done by the reddit author. I said as much in my previous post.

The term "debunked" is irritating though. It gives an attitude of finality, just as mr. "/thread"'s statement above.

My hostile tone is both a result of fighting that attitude for over 2 years, and, I'm not going to lie, a bit of a farce. See what I'm really after is original discussion. Dialogue. Building. Learning. Spewing negativity into this thread and walking away, doesn't really accomplish that.

Sometimes hostile tones are polarizing enough to get people talking again. :-)

Just remember that there were success stories long before there was any marketing going on, and that "debunking" isn't helping to liberate us from some corporate greed.

You can "debunk" every MOA proposed so far in this thread, and that doesn't get us any closer to WHY it undeniably, absolutely, placebo controlled, causes the effects that it causes in me.

[chris106]

Fair point - now that sounds more like it

[gizmobrain]

Just to update this thread on my daily regimen: after 2 years of trying various combinations, I still fall back to old reliable whenever I just want to get the job done.

 

Monday-Saturday (Upon Waking)

• 2 capsules of Artichoke Extract
• 5mg of 98% Forskolin
• 1-2mg of time released dextroamphetamine
• 350mg NALT

Sunday

• 4mg Galantamine
• 350mg NALT

Randomly (when I feel like I need them)

B-Vitamins, Magnesium, Potassium

 

Sometimes if I'm pushing myself too hard in the evenings, I'll take something to help quiet my brain, such as Inositol, Magnesium, Theanine, Melatonin, Jiaogulan or Relora. Basically, whatever I have available.

 

I go through spurts of using Uridine from time to time. I've not quite gotten a handle on how to use it most effectively with this stack, but it does seem to be a positive addition. I still try other things from time to time, just to see if they help. I've found successes, but its hard to "play" around when I rely on this stack to be functional at work. 

[abelard lindsay]

 

Glad that it helped you - it doens't seem to have made you more tolerant towards other people's opinions, though.

You may notice I've been around this thread for two years, and seen hundreds of good natured, but ignorant folks say some pretty uninspired things. At times, I've camped out and tried to help them learn. I've never been aggravated by that.

And it's true, I appreciate the research that was done by the reddit author. I said as much in my previous post.

The term "debunked" is irritating though. It gives an attitude of finality, just as mr. "/thread"'s statement above.

My hostile tone is both a result of fighting that attitude for over 2 years, and, I'm not going to lie, a bit of a farce. See what I'm really after is original discussion. Dialogue. Building. Learning. Spewing negativity into this thread and walking away, doesn't really accomplish that.

Sometimes hostile tones are polarizing enough to get people talking again. :-)

Just remember that there were success stories long before there was any marketing going on, and that "debunking" isn't helping to liberate us from some corporate greed.

You can "debunk" every MOA proposed so far in this thread, and that doesn't get us any closer to WHY it undeniably, absolutely, placebo controlled, causes the effects that it causes in me.

 

 

Bravo ZRBarnes, I really think you hit the nail on the head.  The "Debunked" attitude of the reddit author is really off-putting.  

 

In earlier reddit threads, where I actually tried to have a reasonable discussion with him, he likened me to a commercial scam artist on the level of someone selling phony hypnosis tapes.  With that kind of attitude I don't want to bother with a direct dialog.  People report benefits from CILTEP with or without me or Natural Stacks, now or in the future.   ZRBarnes, as you can attest, this is not something that came into being as some sort of handed down from on-high mega-hyped miracle supplement.  It was just me reading studies and trying things out and sharing with the community for almost 2 years, with plenty of wrong turns with dosages and various herbal PDE4s and what not. 

 

I think I'll put together an advanced FAQ with cites and so forth responding to some of the more technical questions regarding CILTEP I get.  Most of these questions have already been answered in the thread but are hard to dig up since it has gotten so enormous.  It will, among other things, address some of the issues brought up in the aforementioned reddit post.  

 

For those who are anxiously waiting for it, this CILTEP thing is not at all my full-time job, so I may get to it in the next couple of weeks.  However, I'll make sure to post a link to it in the forum when it's up.

 

BTW, check out my articles on optimalperformance.com, which I've been spending most of my research time on lately (http://optimalperfor...belard-lindsay/). There are some really great ideas for stacks in my recent articles.  The articles are a bit like how I used to post and quote studies here, but a little more in-depth.  I left the exact stack design as an exercise for the reader and as a present for those who read and understand my articles.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 13 August 2014 - 07:03 AM.