2626 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

How does the stack fare without forskolin? Ran out of it and will be getting my supply tomorrow.

I have a study session tonight and all I have on hand are Piracetam and Quercetin.

Not to discourage you, but Forskolin is pretty much the essential. The other parts play off of what it does. However, I'm sure you will do fine without it. Think positive!

Edited by zrbarnes, 15 August 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[hephaestus]

Quercetin will inhibit the decomposition of cAMP to AMP, but without the forskolin, you probably won't notice a huge difference. Quercetin is also an MAOI, selective for MAO-B, so you could take a little more of it and it will help in that respect. Get some caffeine, and some theanine if you can find it. Some exercise before you start studying will also help release some neurotransmitters, just don't overdo it and make yourself tired.

[unbeatableking]

Thank you for the help guys. :D

[Nootr]

Hi, try brain workshop instead of lumocity to measure the benefits from the stack. Play for at least one month to reach the top n-back for you without taking the stack. After you get to know the limits of your memory play it after taking the stack and so if your n-back increases that means the stack works.
By using brainworkshop n-back game I understood that noopept does not improve my memory and refused from it.

Edited by Dan Brown, 16 August 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[gizmobrain]

I got the Sesamin order in today, from SmartPowders. I also picked up some Idebenone, Vinpocetine, Pyruvate and Galantamine.

Sesamin is fat soluble, so it absorbs better with a fatty meal. I'm thinking maybe a cup of almond milk and some fish oil capsules might do the trick too.

[canz]

I got the Sesamin order in today, from SmartPowders. I also picked up some Idebenone, Vinpocetine, Pyruvate and Galantamine.

Sesamin is fat soluble, so it absorbs better with a fatty meal. I'm thinking maybe a cup of almond milk and some fish oil capsules might do the trick too.

I'm interested to see if this will have similar effects as the forskolin.

[health_nutty]

I got the Sesamin order in today, from SmartPowders. I also picked up some Idebenone, Vinpocetine, Pyruvate and Galantamine.

Sesamin is fat soluble, so it absorbs better with a fatty meal. I'm thinking maybe a cup of almond milk and some fish oil capsules might do the trick too.

Are you taking it instead of forskolin or with forskolin? Is the rest of your stack going to remain the same or are you adding the other stuff?

[gizmobrain]

Not sure yet. I'll have to play around with it to see which works best.

[Major Legend]

On a side note I feel Quercetin is too strong for the purposes of CILTEP, plus the long half life. I've been experiencing some rebound effects with it, I think I react sensitively to most things so its probably a non issue with most. On the other hand no issues with Artichoke extract, it seems a lot more benign to me.

Could you elaborate (tiredness, hyper-viligence, by chance)?

Insomnia mainly which creates a whole bunch of effects such as being tired. When I stop I get a rebound like shakiness (weakness performing complex movements) and brain fog. I imagine this is because of the variety of effects Quercetin has on my body for 24 hours and more.

It's actually a pretty decent wake-up pill by itself, the only problem is it lasts way too long. You do feel pretty hyper-vigilant, but after a while it turns into this dreary zombie thing.

If anything I seem to be growing a tolerance to it. Think this is another no go sadly, I did like it.

[hephaestus]

On a side note I feel Quercetin is too strong for the purposes of CILTEP, plus the long half life. I've been experiencing some rebound effects with it, I think I react sensitively to most things so its probably a non issue with most. On the other hand no issues with Artichoke extract, it seems a lot more benign to me.

Could you elaborate (tiredness, hyper-viligence, by chance)?

Insomnia mainly which creates a whole bunch of effects such as being tired. When I stop I get a rebound like shakiness (weakness performing complex movements) and brain fog. I imagine this is because of the variety of effects Quercetin has on my body for 24 hours and more.

It's actually a pretty decent wake-up pill by itself, the only problem is it lasts way too long. You do feel pretty hyper-vigilant, but after a while it turns into this dreary zombie thing.

If anything I seem to be growing a tolerance to it. Think this is another no go sadly, I did like it.

Try taking less?

[hephaestus]

Are you supplementing any nat or phenylalanine?

[owtsgmi]

Try taking less?

Thanks for the info, Major Legend. I agree that taking less quercetin is the way to go. I went from 2g (for 2 weeks or so), down to 1g (6 weeks or so), and today was my first day at 500mg. It is always the same - feel great at first, then after awhile I begin to get really tired, my eyes feel funny (like sleepy...hard to explain) and mornings are tough. I also get myopic and super focused on research. When I drop the dose, things are good again. I must be gaining some type of tolerance with the quercetin- don't know. The forskolin has been constant through this.

[Major Legend]

wow I was taking like 500mg only, 2g sounds like a lot. I tried 1g, but I think 500mg is enough, unless you bi-dose at night if you want to play or work late. I

Why would NAT help, as for phenylalanine I have some, doesn't seem to ever make much difference for me. Think there are other reports from ages ago from people using high dose ECG and Levodopa (Mucuna) that the energy seems to fluctuate throughout the day, no idea why this is but I think it happens with Quercetin too.

Thinking of trying uridine (or just CDP choline)., think it might be a great combo

Does forksolin take a while to accumulate positive effects, because I just get impaired working memory everytime I take it.

[hephaestus]

NAT and phenylalanine help because they are prodrugs for dopamine. Elevated cAMP increases tyrosine hydroxylase transcription which is the rate limiting enzyme in synthesizing dopamine from tyrosine. Phenylalanine->dopamine is rate limited by phenylalanine hydroxylase.

[owtsgmi]

wow I was taking like 500mg only, 2g sounds like a lot. I tried 1g, but I think 500mg is enough, unless you bi-dose at night if you want to play or work late. I

Why would NAT help, as for phenylalanine I have some, doesn't seem to ever make much difference for me. Think there are other reports from ages ago from people using high dose ECG and Levodopa (Mucuna) that the energy seems to fluctuate throughout the day, no idea why this is but I think it happens with Quercetin too.

Thinking of trying uridine (or just CDP choline)., think it might be a great combo

Does forksolin take a while to accumulate positive effects, because I just get impaired working memory everytime I take it.

I just swapped out LPA for Craze in my uridine stack and it is working great on day 3. I may drop down the quercetin a bit more in my CILTEP.

[Major Legend]

Don't think craze is good at all, there are numerous reports on bodybuilding forum of left arm and breathing pains (google it). It has to be some kind of amphetamine like substance, we just don't know whats active in it. At the very least I don't think its suitable for "daily" use.

[gizmobrain]

I will admit, I use about a half a scoop of Craze in a half liter of water as a replacement for the 5mg of Adderall that I used to take with CILTEP.

I don't use it everyday, maybe 3 times a week. And I limit myself to a half scoop, even if the effects wear off. I don't think the stimulants in Craze is probably any healthier than amphetamines, but I don't have insurance right now, and some days I need to get stuff done.

One thing I like about it is that it has Creatine, TMG and Vitamin C in it. Beyond that, it's hard to tell how safe the stimulant cocktail is in small amounts. But it's definitely not good for you in large amounts!

Edited by zrbarnes, 18 August 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Also, speaking of replacing Forskolin with Sesamin, it definitely feels different. Not so much ringing in my ears. It's not as hard on the bowels either.

I'm not sure it's just a drop in replacement. I'm going to have to do some comparisons and play with dosage.

[autocratica]

4 days on Sesamin.

It's definitely different. I feel like I am slowly losing my libido which is a no no so I will finish up after a full two weeks then go try the 95% forskolin combo.


I was also wondering if smaller doses of Quercetin, say 250 mg, would be good. I definitely notice the tiring affects if I stay at 500mg.

Which leads me to observation number three, removing the affects of what one feels and the biological affects of chemically induced LTP. If one is taking this stack for enhanced learning / memory then I only care about improving those as opposed to any mood altering affects. I notice that my n=1 observation that the increased curiosity, and my supposed memory enhancement seems to stay beyond a 6-8 day cessation period. So I think I may try once weekly dosing to reap the benefits without the sides of chronic every day dosing. If it does not work I will go back to daily routine. My only measurement for this journaling. Since taking this stack I have noticed improvements in my routine and my ability to learn I hope this continues .

[owtsgmi]

Don't think craze is good at all, there are numerous reports on bodybuilding forum of left arm and breathing pains (google it). It has to be some kind of amphetamine like substance, we just don't know whats active in it. At the very least I don't think its suitable for "daily" use.

Yes, I have read a couple of reports like that and it may be they were taking too much. Least effective dose and moderation are the key here. The active ingredient seems to be PEA, which upregulates D2 (dopamine agonist) but has mechanisms which make it less additive from what I have read on this. It also contains an NMDA antagonist which helps with stim tolerance. Anyway, I plan to try a tub cautiously to see how it goes, but so far it blows away the LPA.

[hephaestus]

4 days on Sesamin.

It's definitely different. I feel like I am slowly losing my libido which is a no no so I will finish up after a full two weeks then go try the 95% forskolin combo.


I was also wondering if smaller doses of Quercetin, say 250 mg, would be good. I definitely notice the tiring affects if I stay at 500mg.

Which leads me to observation number three, removing the affects of what one feels and the biological affects of chemically induced LTP. If one is taking this stack for enhanced learning / memory then I only care about improving those as opposed to any mood altering affects. I notice that my n=1 observation that the increased curiosity, and my supposed memory enhancement seems to stay beyond a 6-8 day cessation period. So I think I may try once weekly dosing to reap the benefits without the sides of chronic every day dosing. If it does not work I will go back to daily routine. My only measurement for this journaling. Since taking this stack I have noticed improvements in my routine and my ability to learn I hope this continues .

You probably build up good dopamine stores in your synaptic vessicles if you aren't using strong releasing agents like some of us.

Edited by hephaestus, 19 August 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[callum828]

Does anyone know if this stack is likely to cause tolerance? I'm looking to add it to a long-term racetam/NGF stack so I'd like to know if it will cause receptor downregulation or anything.

Also, are there any semi-permanent gains to be expected, as with the -racetams?

[unbeatableking]

Noticed something.

The social side-effects of the stack are indisputable, as I see it. Enhanced mood and energy - what have you not.

Memory is where everything diverges. Some people have reported various anecdotes regarding its effects on memory.

What I notice is that all of those reporting learning enhancement effects are math majors or students of math, none of them rely on rote reading.

Rote reading relies heavily on working memory. Tried the stack again with Forskolin - I have found it impossible to read through textbooks as I am rendered incapable of putting two and two together.

It did however, work well with just Quercetin, Caffeine and Piracetam. So for all of you who adhere to a textbook studying, I don't think the addition of Forskolin is a good idea.

I'd like to note that it works extremely well from a concentration perspective - but concentrated reading and not having anything enter your mind doesn't really bode well for the average student.

Edited by unbeatableking, 19 August 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[unbeatableking]

Has anyone tried the stack with just the PDE4 inhibitor?

I mean the literature seems to point towards two things: that enhancing and retaining cAMP levels in the CNS have positive effects on memory.

But human beings already synthesize cAMP naturally - who is to say we can't rely on our natural stores?

People might say that all of the rat studies done utilized Forskolin - but I believe this was done simply to create a plausible and undeniable connection between cAMP utilization within the topic of memory, none of the studies suppose that a lack of a cAMP-level raiser will render the stack useless, most especially amongst normal individuals who possess normal cAMP levels.

After all, it isn't the rise in cAMP that causes an increase in LTP, it is the prevention of the inactivation that does this.

Also noticed something else - Abelard uses an extremely dilute Forskolin supplement - 4 mg. And he has reported nothing short of phenomenal results, in comparison to that of most individuals in this topic who have used dosages as high as 20 - 50 mg.

Might there be a connection? What if an excess of cAMP is counterintuitive to memory?

Edited by unbeatableking, 19 August 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[gizmobrain]

The issue is that no two people have the same neurochemistry. Excessive cAMP signaling has been implicated in certain types of ADHD.

Even though the DSM likes to lump folks like me (diagnosed with ADHD-PI, but never showing signs of hyperactivity) into the same disorder as ADHD, I respond really well to things that increase cAMP, but too much causes me to jump tracks too quickly (whereas not enough causes me to... fall off the track, into a ditch).

Just like nearly all things neuroscience related, there is a narrow window between too much, and not enough.

So yes. Conservative dosages, folks. Abelard has been preaching it since the beginning of the thread .

Edited by zrbarnes, 19 August 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[unbeatableking]

I have no doubt the stack is good for concentration and mood, which is why this rise in cAMP has positive effects on your behavior - my contention is surrounding the issue of memory.

I am going to drop the Forskolin and just stick to just Quercetin. See how it fares.

I find it somewhat comparable to taking an Ach-inhibitor with a choline source. Taking either of the two is fine, but taking both together is counterproductive.

Edited by unbeatableking, 19 August 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[unbeatableking]

Always thought the 4 mg dosage was ludicrous. Told myself that I might as well continue to skip the Forskolin all together if this were the case, and as I continued to do so, I felt nothing but benefits.

Upon taking Forskolin for the first time however, everything went badly. So I finally see why Abelard stuck to such a low dosage.

It is possible that we might not even need Forskolin.

[gizmobrain]

It is possible that we might not even need Forskolin.

If you already have an excess of cAMP, then yes, you might not need the Forskolin to get positive effects.

However, I can assure you that I have run many trials at many different dosages and there is no improvement for me with quercetin + l-phenylalanine alone.

Forskolin does more than just increase cAMP (or maybe it is related to how it increases cAMP, or effects of raised cAMP), like enhancing NMDA activity by increasing the probability of glutamate release. I believe this to be the main reason why it works so well for a lot of folks, but not so great for other folks.

Edited by zrbarnes, 19 August 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[unbeatableking]

Sorry for posting so incessantly, but I felt that people here might be able to benefit from my experiences.

Re-took the stack without the Forskolin. Everything is back to normal, I can read the book again much in the same way people read magazines.

So for those of you who get brain fog/memory issues from the stack, might I suggest lowering or removing the Forskolin entirely?

[gizmobrain]

So for those of you who get brain fog/memory issues from the stack, might I suggest lowering or removing the Forskolin entirely?

Also, for anyone getting headaches, ringing ears, blood pressure increase, irritability, or sleepiness.

20mg of Forskolin is too much to take daily, and is what most people start at since most are capped that way.