2626 replies to this topic

[unbeatableking]

Guys. I don't...

What the fuck.


Toxicol Lett. 2010 Aug 16;197(2):97-105. Epub 2010 May 11.
Quercetin impairs learning and memory in normal mice via suppression of hippocampal phosphorylated cyclic AMP response element-binding protein expression



HAS ANYONE ELSE SEEN THIS? WHAT THE FUCK HOW COULD ANYONE ELSE HAVE NOT SEEN THIS.

[unbeatableking]

It looks like Quercetin is a no-go guys. All of the evidence is mounting against it. So far:

1. The long half-life has a lot of people worried. Some people are leery about having something in their system for longer than 12 hours at a time.

2. The MAOI-qualities might be alluring for some, but as a lot of people should know, such substances have notorious contraindications.

This isn't to say that MAOI's are bad. But some people are on substances that could react in a negative fashion with Quercetin.

3. Quercetin seems to impair memory by interfering with the activation of CREB along the LTP pathway.


It is definitely a no-go. Artichoke seems to be better at this purpose to be frank.

Edited by unbeatableking, 22 August 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[unbeatableking]

What is odd is that the substance is seemingly beneficial amongst abnormal populations. Drug-induced memory deficits and diseases for example, but it only does so by reversing some of the debilitating pathways that lead to memory deficits in the first place.

I have yet to come across a beneficial study amongst normal populations. And indeed...

In normal populations, such as the study above, it has been shown to have a negative effect on memory. Seems to screw with CREB activation.

This finally explains why Quercetin has been such a pain to so many people here. So I think we might be able to discount the MAOI theory at this point.

Edited by unbeatableking, 22 August 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Just one more chip in the pile for the evidence that I am abnormal.

[hephaestus]

Yeah, what kind of weirdo reads internet forums about how to make themselves smarter with weird mind altering chemicals?

[unbeatableking]

Hephaestus, have you tried using this stack with Artichoke?

General consensus is that those of you still on the stack should shift back to Artichoke. Seems like Quercetin in itself is a no-go, not simply because of the PDE4 inhibition involved.

The main issue is that we don't know to what extent the inhibition of PDE4 will hamper STM.

We know that excessive cAMP signaling can cause HCN channels to stay open, leading to the overt excitability of neurons and consequently, neural transmission issues.

(This is exactly what LTP is about: The Hebbian LTP theory goes that the long-term strengthened transmission/stimulation of neurons is what causes LTP - which is the physiological trade-off of STM processes).

It is important to note that the bulk of LTP studies were done from a behavioral/spatial perspective - anything that isn't heavily dependent on STM in other words.

Edited by unbeatableking, 22 August 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[hephaestus]

Left work early today because I was a bit tired, but I ate some almonds and yogurt when I got home, and took 5mg forskolin, 500mg artichoke extract, 350mg nat, and 500mg phenylalanine, and now I feel a little too focused/stimulated. My current resting hr is 113, but I don't feel any of the weird stm or swimmy effects that I got from 5mg forskolin, 500mg quercetin, 350mg nat on Monday morning. I took a 18mg concerta at 9am today so there is definitely still plenty of mph in me.

Edited by hephaestus, 22 August 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[sparkk51]

Is it forskolin that inreases tyrosine hydroxylase?

And does guanfacine help alleviate the working memory defecit? I happen to be taking 3mg total per day.

Edited by sparkk51, 22 August 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[hephaestus]

I started with artichoke and got quercetin later, but I didn't notice any unwanted side effects until I switched from amphetamines to mph, a week or so after I switched to quercetin.

http://en.wikipedia....lase#Regulation

Long term regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase can also be mediated by phosphorylation mechanisms. Hormones (e.g. glucocorticoids), drugs (e.g. cocaine), or second messengers such as cAMP increase tyrosine hydroxylase transcription. Increase in tyrosine hydroxylase activity due to phosphorylation can be sustained by nicotine for up to 48 hours. Tyrosine hydroxylase activity is regulated chronically (days) by protein synthesis.

[unbeatableking]

^

Your case is complicated, seeing as we have no idea if there are any significant clinical interactions between all of the things you are taking.

Your case is reminiscent of a 2 by 2 factorial design. So here are the main treatment conditions involved. (Pardon me for all the Psychology lingo, it was my undergraduate major).

(Can't draw a design matrix, but here is something akin to that):

1. Concerta with Quercetin

2. Amphet with Quercetin

3. Concerta with Artichoke

4. Amphet with Artichoke

Have you tried all of these conditions? It'll be much easier for us to root out which of the PDE4 inhibitors are unsuitable for this stack.

Edited by unbeatableking, 22 August 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[hephaestus]

I have tried all four now, and the only one I experienced unwanted side effects with was mph and quercetin.

Also tried hesperidin with amphetamines and didn't have any problems.

[unbeatableking]

^

I suggest you switch back to the Artichoke variants then.

Given that Quercetin is a MAOI, it probably isn't a good idea to combine either with it.

[hephaestus]

Why not? I don't think it's that strong of an MAOI. I do take rhodiola sometimes, although not since I switched to mph. My general objective is to safely potentiate the psychostimulants so I can take as little of them as possible.

Edited by hephaestus, 23 August 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[hephaestus]

I try to be wary for the signs of any neurotransmitter excess, whether it's serotonin syndrome or the cardiovascular effects of DA/NE/epinephrine. Part of the reason I am trying mph instead of amphetamines is in the hope that I can get the focus I need with less cardiovascular side effects. With amphetamines, to take them all the time I have to use ciltep with lots of tyrosine to avoid brain fog which I believe is due to neurotransmitter depletion. So far mph seems to be pretty effective even without ciltep, but I have only been taking it for a few days.

Edited by hephaestus, 23 August 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[sparkk51]

I currently take an SNRI, Effexor, at 150 mg per day. If I want to try this stack out, does anyone have any recommendations for avoiding serotonin syndrome? Also, are there any other common supplements that I should be worried about?

Edited by sparkk51, 23 August 2012 - 06:09 AM.

[unbeatableking]

^

St. John's Wort. Gingko Biloba. Some of the adaptogens.

[expandables]

Does Jarrow Formulas, Artichoke 500 work? What's the best forskohlii to buy?

Edited by expandables, 23 August 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[brainslugged]

Well... I just did horribly on a test due to not being able to think correctly and skipping steps unconciously. I still love the stimulant feeling that goes with this stack, but it is not worth it. I took anotger test and my WM averaged my old score, so I guess the increase was coincidental.

I am going to stop this stack. I makes me happy but less functional, and oxiracetam may actually just be what is helping. I need to reconsider the benefits and what they are being attributed to.

[Daruman]

^That's too bad. As a college student a LTP stack would help a lot. Can anyone think of an actual objective test for this?

[sparkk51]

Well... I just did horribly on a test due to not being able to think correctly and skipping steps unconciously. I still love the stimulant feeling that goes with this stack, but it is not worth it. I took anotger test and my WM averaged my old score, so I guess the increase was coincidental.

I am going to stop this stack. I makes me happy but less functional, and oxiracetam may actually just be what is helping. I need to reconsider the benefits and what they are being attributed to.

This post is completely contradictory to your previous. Are you sure you're not just feeling more frustrated and accusing your recent lower performance on the stack?

[sparkk51]

Thanks for the replies guys but I have another question

Which of these products would be best in terms of taking the optimal concentration of forskolin? Link

[Ames]

Also noticed something else - Abelard uses an extremely dilute Forskolin supplement - 4 mg. And he has reported nothing short of phenomenal results, in comparison to that of most individuals in this topic who have used dosages as high as 20 - 50 mg.

This^^.

Users here are inclined to believe that more is more. For example, most seem to be using Quercitin in place of Artichoke, despite there being enough evidence ten pages back in this thread, both anectodal and research, to indicate that it is not the ideal agent for it's purpose. Anyone reading carefully should have discounted Quercetin ten pages back (estimate). Yet, there is a continued disappointment about negative effects of a Quercitin stack that arises from the inability to accept that the most potent PE4 inhibitor (Quercitin) isn't the best inhibitor. This habitual thinking extends to the flaw of reasoning the leads to Foreskolin megadosing.

I can tell you from having an extemely sensitive constititution, that MOST often the lesser potency agent, or the alternatively the least dose of any agent, has the best effect. Not all the time, as sometimes you do need to cross a dose threshold or need a more potent agent, but often enough to be able to confidently state that it is the exception rather than the rule that the least effective dose is not the best dose. This is my experience, and I think that most here would see vast improvements in both being able to gauge the true effects of what they were taking, as well as to realize the best effects, if they were more conservative in both their dosing and the total number of supplements taken. Sorry for the lecture, sincerely, but there is far too much redundant content here, imo, based on excessive dosing and less than ideal choices made on the assumption that "more is more" in terms of potency, despite the contrary evidence offered by the OP.

My own experience with Quercetin was extemely negative, although not germain to this stack. I took it, once, in the hope tht it would be a good agent for aborting a migraine. Instead, it exacerbated my migraine to a frightening degree in terms of time and strength. That experience was my hard lesson that taught me what a potent substance Quercetin is. I have no doubt that it is too potent for almost any type of regimen that is to be continuous. Truly, I've never taken anything, OTC, that has had such a potent and persistent action, either positive or negative.

Abelard went through videos of mathematical concepts. Sifted through his posts. Nothing there about textbook/rote reading.

Not true. I have the textbook that Abelard used for his MIT Circuits Class. It's practically all rote reading. I'm also in the process of a attaining a degree in the medical field, the study for which is all rote reading. The type of concetration, information processing, and memory required for both subjects are very similar. I also study electronics, computer sci and coding, as he does, which is why I own the book tht he was studying. He studies Ruby and I study Python. While a lot of studying code would be considered "math like" by some, it's actually most akin to language learning and therefore requires the same textbook reading skills as most other science subjects, albet it is more tedious and slow going than is study for many other subjects. Each word in the text tends to be more important, on average. Hence, why it's particular brand of tedium of oft associated with math learning.

Edited by golgi1, 23 August 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[unbeatableking]

^

One of the main issues here is that none of us have an objective means of gauging these 'improvements'.

As you can see, Abe himself has commented that this stack does indeed hinder his working memory, given this fact, what am I to suppose regarding the extent of his learning as brought upon by this stack?

So it is important to gauge these 'claims' and 'anecdotes' using a fine-tooth comb. I myself am extremely suspicious of such claims, and the literature does not help.

I'd like to add that Abe isn't a student at MIT. He is taking an online trial course.

Edited by unbeatableking, 24 August 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

Just for the record, I've been taking the Artichoke CILTEP stack (Aritchoke, Forskolin, L-Phenylalanine) every day and am still getting great benefits out of it. I've been taking this almost every day for the last 9 months or so with the occasional unsuccessful Quercetin only and Hesperetin only test. I recently switched to the bodybuilding.com C-Bolic 95% Forskolin because I wanted to lower the non-forskolin parts of the herb that I'm taking (Thanks ZRBarnes).

The negative experiences I've had with the Hesperetin and Pure Quercetin stacks were unfortunate but I really think that, at least for my brain chemistry , the artichoke stack has been a consistent winner and does not hinder my working memory. I still drink an energy drink with probably less than 100mg of Quercetin in the afternoon for a little boost.

Remember, the point of this thread, and the fluid intelligence thread are to produce knowledge. Knowledge is a very delicate thing. It's very easy to create convincing theories that are wrong by ignoring empirical information that contradicts the theory. One must explore research on the issue and keep an open mind. There is a real biochemical underlying reality here that we are trying to describe and understand and it works the same whether our theories agree with its empirical manifestations or not.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 24 August 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[unbeatableking]

^

Are you saying that the 'theories' I supposedly keep mentioning in this thread are just 'theories'?

Name one 'theory' in this topic which I failed to back up with a study.

I'd like to add that the cAMP/Working memory bit isn't my theory. I came across that some pages ago and I brought it up. I am simply repeating the conclusion of the research, verbatim may I add.

I am also not conceited enough to claim ownership or possession over a physiological process replicated by a study. Like I said - I didn't invent anything in this thread, I ripped it off a study, okay? Again, verbatim if I may add.

Don't get me wrong, but I am under the assumption, that you think that I believe the stack does not work? Would I be wasting my time here if that were true?

I wonder what lead to your reaction.

Edited by unbeatableking, 24 August 2012 - 07:28 AM.

[gizmobrain]

And when have I ever been wrong...?

You, sir, are a genuine treat. If you keep winning at this rate, you'll be the king of the internet in no time!

No really. I'm serious.



Any way that you could come down and join us from your throne, O' Unbeatable King, as we are mere mortals undeserving of your keen intellect.

[unbeatableking]

^

Have you dropped the Sesamin entirely? And when you were on it, did you experience any GI issues?

[gizmobrain]

No GI issues. I always take it with a couple fish oil capsules and some fatty milk. Currently, I'm trialling nefiracetam so I only tried sesamin for a couple days. Not enough points of data for me to comment much about it.

[unbeatableking]

^

Nefiracetam? You are aware of the testicular side-effects right?

Why'd you switch from Artichoke to Quercetin anyways.

[unbeatableking]

If we want to find a solution to this issue, then let us.

I just don't understand why some people here are so adamant about defending this stack in an absolute sense. Everything is open to criticism.

Given that the use of Quercetin remained unchallenged for... 10 or more pages perhaps? Only to be proven ill-advised a few pages back by studies and anecdotes, don't you guys think that this criticism has merit?

If no one bothered to bring that issue up, then people might've continued to use it to their detriment.

And forgive me for being so dry and impassive when talking about the stack in question.

Edited by unbeatableking, 24 August 2012 - 09:33 AM.