2626 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

Also, since it's been a while since we talked about it, a bioavailable form of Magnesium is always a good idea for this stack. I strongly recommend taking before bed though.

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20152124']
Enhancement of learning and memory by elevating brain magnesium.

Source
Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.

Abstract
Learning and memory are fundamental brain functions affected by dietary and environmental factors. Here, we show that increasing brain magnesium using a newly developed magnesium compound (magnesium-L-threonate, MgT) leads to the enhancement of learning abilities, working memory, and short- and long-term memory in rats. The pattern completion ability was also improved in aged rats. MgT-treated rats had higher density of synaptophysin-/synaptobrevin-positive puncta in DG and CA1 subregions of hippocampus that were correlated with memory improvement. Functionally, magnesium increased the number of functional presynaptic release sites, while it reduced their release probability. The resultant synaptic reconfiguration enabled selective enhancement of synaptic transmission for burst inputs. Coupled with concurrent upregulation of NR2B-containing NMDA receptors and its downstream signaling, synaptic plasticity induced by correlated inputs was enhanced. Our findings suggest that an increase in brain magnesium enhances both short-term synaptic facilitation and long-term potentiation and improves learning and memory functions.

PMID: 20152124

→ source (external link)

[Ames]

This stack stopped working for me. I triend low/high doses forskolin with quercetin, vitamin C, artichoke...nothing. I can't get the same response anymore. It may have something to do with the autonomic system and low catecholamines. I do remember it worked beautifully when I was taking phentermine at the same time. Any suggestions? I might give the phen another go..

I'm sorry to hear that, as it is always frustrating when that occurs.

Perhaps you can turn your tolerance into an opportunity to help the forum, and experiment with substances that might reverse the tolerance. I know that I would appreciate the information that will result from your time spent toward this end.

If tolerance is an eventual inevitability, or if it just occurs with some people due to their neurochemistry or other supplements taken, then knowing if and how the tolerance can be reversed will be essential for CITEP stack management. Especially given the fact that any percieved tolerance is likely indicative of downregulation somewhere, which I'm sure that everyone would want to be aware of to be able to counter or to outright avoid it.

Incidentally, how is your tolerance to supplemental GABA or GABA agonists, currently?

Is your acetylcholine sensitivity feeling normal enough, after supplementing with the CITEP stack for a time? Are you currently stacking any choline or any pro-acetylcholine supplement?

I'd be interested to know if your tolerance wanes after a week or two break from CITEP, or if dropping other things (as well as adding, of course) in your stack would help toward this end. Good luck.

[hephaestus]

I would try supplementing some n-acetyl-tyrosine or phenylalanine first if you aren't already, and then maybe some choline if that doesn't work.

[gizmobrain]

I don't really think his case has anything to do with tolerance, but has more to do with the fact that the success he originally found was when CILTEP was combined with a stimulant.

This is the case for me too. CILTEP works great for me as long as I throw in a small dose of stimulant, but without, it doesn't seem to do much in comparison.

This isn't the case for everyone, but definitely is for my brain.

[unbeatableking]

Any updates? Topic is dead.

[brainslugged]

Well... I just did horribly on a test due to not being able to think correctly and skipping steps unconciously. I still love the stimulant feeling that goes with this stack, but it is not worth it. I took anotger test and my WM averaged my old score, so I guess the increase was coincidental.

I am going to stop this stack. I makes me happy but less functional, and oxiracetam may actually just be what is helping. I need to reconsider the benefits and what they are being attributed to.

This post is completely contradictory to your previous. Are you sure you're not just feeling more frustrated and accusing your recent lower performance on the stack?

That is very likely, actually. I was pretty mad. But still, I am stopping it for now.

It is unlikely that I did poorly on the test just from the stack, and that was a very bad assumption. I may try it again later, but I am doing good without it for now and making good grades, and now, I don't really feel comfortable knowing that the stimulant feeling felt so good.

It is also very possible that the only reason I did poorly on the contradicting WM tests was due to being frustrated.

I still think that this can maybe increase WM. I don't really know what to think of it now. Probably best to disregard my other posts about it. None of them were made in the most objective state, and I was taking oxiracetam after a long break alongside them, so that even further screwed my data. I apologize. I was not posting very responsibly in this thread.

Edited by brainslug, 01 September 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[X_Danny_X]

I had no problems remembering my credit card number. the whole 16 numbers and also the 3 digit code at the back. i just tried it 3 times and already I cannot get it out of my head. YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAWHHHHHHH

[jadamgo]

tldr. how cn i stakk? u put artychoak on foreskin?

j/k. But seriously, the basic suggestion from the thread so far is:

Combine 500mg artichoke extract with 4-10mg forskolin from the purest source possible. Optionally, add a reasonable dose of a catecholaminergic stimulant such as MPH, AMP, L-Phenylalanine, or (N-acetyl-)Tyrosine. This stack should be taken in the morning because it can cause insomnia if taken late at night.

Is this right?

[unbeatableking]

^

Yes.

[sparkk51]

Not sure if this study was ever posted but here you go: Link

I guess it would be smart to take piracetam with this stack? Also, I have definitely observed decreased working memory, in the past, while on piracetam.

[unbeatableking]

^

I wonder why we keep missing such directly related studies, like the Quercetin/STM study I posted a few pages back.

Who knows what other gems we might've missed.

[gizmobrain]

Good info. I wonder what increased cAMP in the intestines does?

^

I wonder why we keep missing such directly related studies, like the Quercetin/STM study I posted a few pages back.

Who knows what other gems we might've missed.

I have over 300 studies bookmarked to post in various threads here. It's not so much "missed" as "too unorganized/lazy", haha.

[unbeatableking]

Good info. I wonder what increased cAMP in the intestines does?

^

I wonder why we keep missing such directly related studies, like the Quercetin/STM study I posted a few pages back.

Who knows what other gems we might've missed.

I have over 300 studies bookmarked to post in various threads here. It's not so much "missed" as "too unorganized/lazy", haha.

LOL.

BTW, how is the D-serine treating you? I remember you mentioning it a while back.

[X_Danny_X]

i just took d-serine today along with the rest of my stacks. so far nothing different. it was a big block that stood out so i took it and eat it. it is one day though. let me see what it does say 1 week from now.

[hephaestus]

tldr. how cn i stakk? u put artychoak on foreskin?

j/k. But seriously, the basic suggestion from the thread so far is:

Combine 500mg artichoke extract with 4-10mg forskolin from the purest source possible. Optionally, add a reasonable dose of a catecholaminergic stimulant such as MPH, AMP, L-Phenylalanine, or (N-acetyl-)Tyrosine. This stack should be taken in the morning because it can cause insomnia if taken late at night.

Is this right?

Phenylalanine and tyrosine aren't really stimulants, they are prodrugs for dopamine. This stack is most effective with phenylalanine or tyrosine, forskolin, artichoke, and a stimulant like amphetamines or caffeine. I have only tried it once or twice with methylphenidate, but it didn't seem to work very well.

[medievil]

Togheter with stimulants forskolin causes very bad OCD, it feels like my head is gonna explode with being ocd about supplements togheter with constantly researching some shit obsessively, i feel alot better without forskolin. nefiracetam wich also increases cAMP also increased my ocd, i think i would benefit from guanfacine, stims dont counteract my ADHD that much perhaps lowering cAMP would be a good try my issues.

[magta39]

Yes, increasing cAMP is definitely not for everyone....tried this stack in various forms, come to the conclusion that forskolin is not for me.

[health_nutty]

Yes, increasing cAMP is definitely not for everyone....tried this stack in various forms, come to the conclusion that forskolin is not for me.

Have you tried forskolin in low doses? 2-4mgs or less a day? High doses causes weird effects, but low doses work great!

[Lufega]

This stack stopped working for me. I triend low/high doses forskolin with quercetin, vitamin C, artichoke...nothing. I can't get the same response anymore. It may have something to do with the autonomic system and low catecholamines. I do remember it worked beautifully when I was taking phentermine at the same time. Any suggestions? I might give the phen another go..

I'm sorry to hear that, as it is always frustrating when that occurs.

Perhaps you can turn your tolerance into an opportunity to help the forum, and experiment with substances that might reverse the tolerance. I know that I would appreciate the information that will result from your time spent toward this end.

If tolerance is an eventual inevitability, or if it just occurs with some people due to their neurochemistry or other supplements taken, then knowing if and how the tolerance can be reversed will be essential for CITEP stack management. Especially given the fact that any percieved tolerance is likely indicative of downregulation somewhere, which I'm sure that everyone would want to be aware of to be able to counter or to outright avoid it.

Incidentally, how is your tolerance to supplemental GABA or GABA agonists, currently?

Is your acetylcholine sensitivity feeling normal enough, after supplementing with the CITEP stack for a time? Are you currently stacking any choline or any pro-acetylcholine supplement?

I'd be interested to know if your tolerance wanes after a week or two break from CITEP, or if dropping other things (as well as adding, of course) in your stack would help toward this end. Good luck.

I don't think tolerance was the issue. I do have high tolerance to Gabaergics. They work for a day or two then nothing. I take alpha gpc from time to time but not consistently. Would that help ? I started again on phentermine and gave myself a couple weeks to adapt. I also added 5 drops of a liquid yohimbe extract to boost ANS. I know it sound like overkill but the extra yohimbe is making a world of a difference. Everything I'm using seems to be working better now. Despite all the warnings about quercetin, I've always found that it increases cognitive function a bit. Specially in the amount of material you can read. I gave it to my uncle to try once. He devours books everyday. After only a few days, he told me he was able to read 50% more pages with the quercetin. I took phentermine/yohimbe/quercetin this morning and just now took a low dose of forskolin. I'm already starting to feel something familiar but I'll see how I respond after a few days. My problem is that I can't stay on phentermine forever. I'll keep the low dose yohimbe and maybe add some phenyl or tyrosine to compensate.

I would try supplementing some n-acetyl-tyrosine or phenylalanine first if you aren't already, and then maybe some choline if that doesn't work.

I will consider this option. Tyrosine worked for a while but I quickly developed tolerance to it. I have high COMT activity and low ANS function so it may have something to do with those.

I don't really think his case has anything to do with tolerance, but has more to do with the fact that the success he originally found was when CILTEP was combined with a stimulant.

This is the case for me too. CILTEP works great for me as long as I throw in a small dose of stimulant, but without, it doesn't seem to do much in comparison.

This isn't the case for everyone, but definitely is for my brain.

I used phentermine before and felt ok. After adding the yohimbe to the phen, I feel amazing. Not only is my energy up but my cognitive functions are much improved. It seems like I need some sort of stimulant to help me through. I've tried caffeine in different doses but the effect doesn't last.

Edit: I want to add that getting off the phen and ciltep stack left me pretty brain dead for a long while. Loading up on magnesium helped with the phentermine withdrawal within a couple of days but my memory and executive functions were shot until I started phen/yohimbe recently.

Edited by Lufega, 14 September 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[bugme]

Just for the record, I've been taking the Artichoke CILTEP stack (Aritchoke, Forskolin, L-Phenylalanine) every day and am still getting great benefits out of it. I've been taking this almost every day for the last 9 months or so with the occasional unsuccessful Quercetin only and Hesperetin only test. I recently switched to the bodybuilding.com C-Bolic 95% Forskolin because I wanted to lower the non-forskolin parts of the herb that I'm taking (Thanks ZRBarnes).

The negative experiences I've had with the Hesperetin and Pure Quercetin stacks were unfortunate but I really think that, at least for my brain chemistry , the artichoke stack has been a consistent winner and does not hinder my working memory. I still drink an energy drink with probably less than 100mg of Quercetin in the afternoon for a little boost.

Remember, the point of this thread, and the fluid intelligence thread are to produce knowledge. Knowledge is a very delicate thing. It's very easy to create convincing theories that are wrong by ignoring empirical information that contradicts the theory. One must explore research on the issue and keep an open mind. There is a real biochemical underlying reality here that we are trying to describe and understand and it works the same whether our theories agree with its empirical manifestations or not.

As I've read this I wanted to suggest the Enzymatic Therapy forskolin extract which is only 50 mg of coleus at 18% so it is 9 mg of forskolin, more than half less than c-bolic which is 25 mg at 95%.

All in all great thread, I'm going to try the solaray forskolin and now artichoke with L-Phenylalanine combo.

Kind regards

Edited by bugme, 22 September 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[unbeatableking]

Tried it with artichoke. Same effect as Quercetin. Absolutely ruined my working memory.

[bugme]

Tried it with artichoke. Same effect as Quercetin. Absolutely ruined my working memory.

Are we talking about the product I mentioned or the forskolin dosage (too much maybe)?

Regards

[unbeatableking]

Took 3 mg of Forskolin with the Artichoke.

Also tried another dosing scheme - no Forskolin whatsoever.

Both screwed with my working memory. Couldn't keep a coherent thought. Would not recommend for studying.

But I did experience something rather odd whilst on the stack: I was able to unconsciously memorize an 11-digit cellphone number within the span of 10 minutes.

Someone sent me a cellphone number via Facebook. Wrote it down thinking I would forget it. Didn't try to rehearse it in my head seeing as I had it written down.

When I got to my cellphone, situated in my room, I did not need to refer to what I wrote down. It came to me.

Usually you need to rehearse something consciously in order to remember it. Also, our digit span is somewhere between 7 plus or minus two digits.

[gbpackers]

^^ just the L-phenylalanine and artichoke messed with your working memory?

[unbeatableking]

The entire regimen mentioned in this topic messed with my working memory.

[gbpackers]

The entire regimen mentioned in this topic messed with my working memory.

gotcha. BTW fwiw I stacked piracetam today and pramiracetam and severely underperformed on a lsat practice test. Normally I take just pramiracetam and score 10 points higher.

[unbeatableking]

^

How do you fare on just Piracetam alone.

[gbpackers]

^

How do you fare on just Piracetam alone.

never noticed anything from just taking it alone.. besides for getting tired and sleepy sometimes and getting slightly irritable other times.

But there were times where I stacked it with pramiracetam with higher doses for exams last semester and it seemed to help with retention because I did well on my exams the next day.

But, I guess it doesn't work well for something like the lsat which is not something that tests memory?

[X_Danny_X]

Also, since it's been a while since we talked about it, a bioavailable form of Magnesium is always a good idea for this stack. I strongly recommend taking before bed though.

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20152124']
Enhancement of learning and memory by elevating brain magnesium.

Source
Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA.

Abstract
Learning and memory are fundamental brain functions affected by dietary and environmental factors. Here, we show that increasing brain magnesium using a newly developed magnesium compound (magnesium-L-threonate, MgT) leads to the enhancement of learning abilities, working memory, and short- and long-term memory in rats. The pattern completion ability was also improved in aged rats. MgT-treated rats had higher density of synaptophysin-/synaptobrevin-positive puncta in DG and CA1 subregions of hippocampus that were correlated with memory improvement. Functionally, magnesium increased the number of functional presynaptic release sites, while it reduced their release probability. The resultant synaptic reconfiguration enabled selective enhancement of synaptic transmission for burst inputs. Coupled with concurrent upregulation of NR2B-containing NMDA receptors and its downstream signaling, synaptic plasticity induced by correlated inputs was enhanced. Our findings suggest that an increase in brain magnesium enhances both short-term synaptic facilitation and long-term potentiation and improves learning and memory functions.

PMID: 20152124

→ source (external link)

what about deprenyl or Selegiline? Isnt it good for this stack?

[summertimex]

well one thing that i noticed when drinking coffee, racetams or anything that tries to run the CNS at a faster rate is b vitamin depletion. after a couple of days on racetams things start to get sluggish and its not always downregulation, but metabolic element depletion.