2626 replies to this topic

[gizmobrain]

What were the results of those who tried substituting sesamin for forskolin?

Yeah, Sesamin didn't cut it for me. Maybe it required higher doses then I was willing to take? I wasn't a huge fan of the phytoestrogenic properties, though that may be able to be addressed by something that balances it out.

It did seem to cause a drop in libido, but that's pretty hard for me to judge, given my lack of a sex life right now. In a couple months, I'll be more capable of judging these sorts of things.

I've still got a huge bottle of it. Maybe I'll try doing some combinations at some point in the future.

Edited by zrbarnes, 09 December 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

Caffeine inhibits forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP accumulation in rat brain

http://www.sciencedi...01429999090231T

What do it mean ?

[gizmobrain]

Caffeine inhibits forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP accumulation in rat brain

http://www.sciencedi...01429999090231T

What do it mean ?

More information:

Caffeine potently inhibited forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP accumulation in slices of rat cerebral cortex, with an IC50 of 21 +/- 3 microM. Because caffeine competitively blocks adenosine receptors, we examined whether the action of forskolin involved endogenous adenosine or whether caffeine was acting through some novel mechanism. Inhibition by caffeine was observed at all forskolin concentrations examined, although the degree of inhibition decreased at higher concentrations of forskolin. The effect of caffeine was not blocked by the presence of a phosphodiesterase inhibitor but was mimicked by several other methylxanthines. The most potent of these was 8-(p-sulfophenyl)-theophylline, which does not readily cross cell membranes, arguing for an extracellular site of action. Addition of either adenosine or the adenosine uptake blocker dipyridamole potentiated the forskolin response, suggesting that forskolin and adenosine act synergistically in increasing cyclic AMP accumulation. The nonxanthine adenosine receptor antagonist CGS 15943 potently blocked cyclic AMP responses to forskolin, adenosine, and combinations. 3-Isobutyl-1-methylxanthine potently blocked the response to adenosine but caused little or no inhibition of the response to forskolin. Adenosine deaminase (ADA) was added to eliminate contributions of endogenous adenosine. ADA inhibited the response to both adenosine and forskolin; however, 200 times as much enzyme was necessary to inhibit the forskolin response. Inhibition of added ADA with 2'deoxycoformycin dramatically increased the concentration of ADA required to inhibit the adenosine response, without altering the concentration required to inhibit the forskolin response. These results suggest that forskolin-stimulated cyclic AMP accumulation may be partially dependent on endogenous adenosine but that the inhibition observed with caffeine is not solely due to blockade of adenosine receptors.

→ source (external link)

Forskolin and caffeine seem to compete, but as of 22 years ago, they don't know exactly how. I'll look into it.

Maybe this is why caffeine works better in the afternoon for me than in the morning while on the stack.

Edited by zrbarnes, 10 December 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Pirate]

I have 10% extract 250mg capsules (and a digital scale) - how much forskolin should I actually be weighing out from the caps?

[gizmobrain]

I have 10% extract 250mg capsules (and a digital scale) - how much forskolin should I actually be weighing out from the caps?

Start with 50mg. This will give you 5mg of Forskolin.

[fenra]

I understand that cAMP levels are crucial in the production of bile acids? It might explain some of the symptoms

[norepinephrine]

After some time off and reflective thought, I think I've concluded CILTEP may not be the study stack for me. I'll lay out the costs and benefits as such:

In the beginning, my motivation and focus shot through the roof in a very Adderall-like way, although shorter in duration and with a pretty hard crash around 12 hours after dosing. However, I also noticed overstimulation to the point where I could tunnel in to the point of hyper-focus but reading comprehension and short-term memory were negatively impacted. I mentioned it in an earlier post - for my math problems on tests, I'd be able to reliably skip ahead a few steps while working out a problem, but would have less conscious grasp on what I was actually doing.

These quips could probably be solved with the right amount of diet, sleep, exercise and other nootropics, but what I also noticed was diminishing returns and increasing tolerance with each dose, and taking a few weeks off did nothing to ameliorate the situation.

At this point I'm keeping phenylalanine around for regular use, and keeping some forskolin for the physically positive effects (I suspect it'll help a bit for competitive cycling, at least on the training side of things).

[abelard lindsay]

Tim Ferris is at it again:

The quest: Think harder.
The drugs: Forskolin (from Coleus forskohlii) and artichoke extract
Where to get it: Online
Benefits: “If you want to go all-natural for enhancing your learning and memory, this duo fits the bill. Bonus: Artichokes contain luteolin, which can inhibit PDE5, which is also how Cialis and other ED drugs work. Who doesn’t want to demolish Sudoku while sporting a massive boner?”

http://www.wired.com.../12/pl_ferrris/

The comments are almost universally skeptical. Given that the article is pretty lacking in science value I don't blame them. Well maybe people will google search and end up here and get better information.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 18 December 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[nupi]

I wish Tim Ferris would stop - he is entertaining in a way but kind of a disservice to any of us who are trying to be serious about this things.

[Pirate]

How is everyone going on this stack?

[abelard lindsay]

Still taking it. I have to say that I'm still getting good results from it. My cambridgebrainsciences scores have been going up slowly and gradually in the spatial and grammatical reasoning skills categories, though not significantly in the other categories. I just finished my first semester of grad school (in the sciences) and was able to keep up. I read quite a lot of books this year. There are two distinct effects that I think make this stack a bit different from other nootropics I have tried.

1. I get very "learn hungry" on this stack. I get this really visceral desire to read hard math/technical books.
2. I am more interested in other people and better able to deal with social anxiety.
3. I can talk for very long amounts of time in unbroken complicated thoughts. Kind of Alan Greenspan like. I bet this annoys people.
4. Time seems to pass more slowly.
5. I have an easier time dealing with procrastination.

In reading the posts here in this thread it seems like this stack works or doesn't work for people. The biggest thing I had to tweek was the forskolin. I went from the 3.5mg 3% forskolin to C-Bolic 95%, to 10% and back to C-Bolic. C-Bolic is great because of the purity but unfortunately it is 25mg which can be overstimulating. I started off with great results on the Solaray 3% for some reason. Also, it's probably important to get enough b vitamins and other dopamine co-factors as the brain will be using a lot of these on this stack. The stack also synergizes great with piracetam and especially phenylpiracetam, the latter with CILTEP being one of the best stacks I've tried.

Some other things I'm also taking that might positively interact:

Glycine
NAC
Green coffee bean extract (Chlorogenic Acid)
Multi-Vitamin (Men's One)
Maca
Astragalus
Magnesium Citrate
1000 mg Vitamin C
Hawthorne (unlikely)
Fish Oil
B Vitamin Complex

Uridine (occasionally for mood)
Cissus (occasionally for joints)
Galantamine (not more than once every few weeks)

Edited by abelard lindsay, 30 December 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[fenra]

How is everyone going on this stack?

I am currently trying to use up all this aniracetam so no ghetto LTP for now... as someone mentioned in the past, they are pretty crap taken together. Or one day apart.

CILTEP's effects are also readily assassinated by stress, so I still cannot figure out whether it is a fragile stack or just a very demanding one. Then again piracetam is a "hit and miss" substance as well, and if that trait might make ciltep just as safe, I welcome it. I first took interest in smart powders because they can't be depended upon to work every time, and for the subtlety of their effects which you yourself must learn to find. Much more of a life medicine than any of the more popular "choices", really.

[REBUILDER]

Just started today and haven't experienced anything notable on: Jarrow Artichoke 500/Thorne Research Coleus Forskohli 100mg/ 200 mg Caffeine. Problem is I have no idea how potent the Forskolin is.

Edited by rebuilder, 30 December 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[gizmobrain]

Still taking it. I finally got out of my labor intensive job into an IT position, and find that it works very well in helping me to enjoy working. What I normally have to "force" myself to do, now comes naturally and without effort. For the first time in my life I have hope that I'm not going to get burnt out and give up.

Upon waking I take:

• 5mg Adderall IR
• 200mg Quercetin
• 1.5g Artichoke Extract
• 250mg Uridine 5'monophosphate (sublingual)
• 10mg Forskolin (98%)
• 2 grams DHA
• Jarrows B-right (methylfolate, methycolobalamin, p5p, etc.)
• 500mg L-Phenylalanine

In the evening:

• 2.5mg Melatonin
• 1.5g Magnesium L-Threonate

On Sundays:

• 8mg Galantamine
• No Adderall, Artichoke, or Quercetin

I still feel better then I ever have in my life. Motivation is exactly where I need it to be. Positive effects and side effects are still the same.

The addition of sublingual Uridine seems to be the best synergy of the stack so far. Been taking it about a month now, and its effects seem to be getting better with time. When I get more, I am going to experiment with lowering the adderall dose to ~2.5mg and increasing the uridine to twice daily.

Edited by zrbarnes, 30 December 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

[*]10mg Forskolin (98%)

Where did you get the 10mg 98% forskolin? Are you measuring it out from bulk?

[REBUILDER]

Just started today and haven't experienced anything notable on: Jarrow Artichoke 500/Thorne Research Coleus Forskohli 100mg/ 200 mg Caffeine. Problem is I have no idea how potent the Forskolin is.

I still have no idea how potent the Foskolin is, in regards to precisely what percentage of it is Forskolin. but the Thorne research website says it uses Forslean's formula for Forskolin in the product, and I'm wondering if adding Ephedrine to the stack would help, since I already have tons of that on hand. Forslean's website compares Forslean (Forskolin) to Ephedrine (specifically in regards to breaking down bodyfat.).

[bryan32]

A buddy of mine talked to me about using Forskolin + artichoke extract + vitex as a way to reduce prolactin and even increase libido. He said it was a combo that worked well for him.

With that said, I am currently taking 600mg of Artichoke extract (which is 2 pills), 250mg Forskolin (at 10%, 1 pill), and 800mg Vitex (chasteberry for lowering prolactin).

Apparently Forskolin is good for increasing Test as well (as probably mentioned in this 35 page thread), but can assist with better erections.

Any issues with the dosages I have posted above? I am on day 4 of it...nothing yet, but I am also sick and taking a couple OTC things, like phenylephrine which can affect erection quality.

[norepinephrine]

How is everyone going on this stack?

I'm planning on restarting a forskolin/artichoke/L-phenylalanine trial, though this time pairing it with a strict daily aerobic exercise regimen and putting it on top of whatever herbs I end up deciding to keep from a current experimental stint with adaptogens.

The effects from my first run were as such: in the beginning, highly stimulating and focusing in a similar way to Adderall, but I felt my memory retention was being harmed. Either way, objectively I continued to do well on exams at school at the expense of short-term reading memory.

In time, the effects were diminishing until they were barely perceptible, so I quit.

Recently I took just forskolin before work at a service job and noticed the following: increased sociability and willingness to engage with customers. Nothing really noticeable in any drive to perform tasks, though.

What I'm really gunning for is an alternative approach to Adderall; something to keep me focused and motivated, without the nasty side effects that chronic amphetamine usage brings on. I was diagnosed with ADD as a child but haven't taken prescriptions or seen a physician about it in years, and may ultimately just end up resorting to trying armodafinil and maybe modafinil to gauge effectiveness.

[Mr_G]

After reading through this entire thread I've come to the conclusion that I have similar brain chemistry to zrbarnes. I'm ADHD-PI, usually in a state of having zero motivation or drive (which is painful, because I have tons of ambition), prone to depressive episodes, wide awake at night, and barely conscious for the first half of the day.

It was only 2 months ago I learned that I have ADHD, and since then my entire perspective on myself has changed (In a positive way). Luckily I live in Canada, and I was able to find an extremely good ADHD specialist that sees me every 2 weeks free of charge. I'm currently prescribed ritalin, but it has short-lived positive effects (1-2 hours tops) and then it just zombifies me and actually exacerbates my depression. I'm also prescribed Wellbutrin SR 150mg, I can't say I have ever felt much of anything from this drug after taking it for 3 weeks.

So when I came across this thread, I went over to my healthfood store and I've purchased the following:

- Enzymatic's Forskohlii Extract 50mg @ 18% (9mg Forskolin)
- NOW L-Phenylalanine 500mg
- Dr. Dunner's "Cynarol" Artichoke Extract 470mg

- NOW 3mg Melatonin (I also have issues with sleep)
- Natural Factor's Quercetin Complex (I accidently bought the complex. It has 250mg Quercetin along with Grapeseed, "Blood Orange", and Tumeric Extracts, also with 10mg Coenzyme Q10)

Today was my first day trying this stack, I woke up and took:

10mg of methylphenidate
150mg Wellbutrin SR (for consistency)
3x 470mg of Artichoke Extract
9mg Forskolin

After an hour:

Mood: I couldn't believe the change in my mood. This is way too drastic of a change to be placebo, I have been extremely depressed lately (to the point where I don't enjoy any of my hobbies). I felt completely content most of the day, nothing seemed to bother me and my mind stayed clear. I kind of felt like I had a very subtle body-high... all my muscles felt extremely relaxed.

Motivation: I still wasn't really able to concentrate and accomplish what I needed to, the "urge" or "desire" to learn & work still isn't there. I'll see how tomorrow goes because I'm hoping to get a better night's sleep after taking the Melatonin.

I'm really interested in being prescribed a low dose of Adderall, even after reading about long-term neurotoxicity. MPH just doesn't cut it (in fact, it barely does anything at this point). I'm wondering if adding a capsule of the L-Phenylalanine in the morning might help? Right now my life is so off-track that trying Adderall seems like a necessity for me, the benefits seem like they would outweigh any negatives by a huge margin (at least temporarily).

I'll update my experiences over the next month... I am extremely hopeful.

Edited by Mr_G, 03 January 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[highchief]

After reading through this entire thread I've come to the conclusion that I have similar brain chemistry to zrbarnes. I'm ADHD-PI, usually in a state of having zero motivation or drive (which is painful, because I have tons of ambition), prone to depressive episodes, wide awake at night, and barely conscious for the first half of the day.

It was only 2 months ago I learned that I have ADHD, and since then my entire perspective on myself has changed (In a positive way). Luckily I live in Canada, and I was able to find an extremely good ADHD specialist that sees me every 2 weeks free of charge. I'm currently prescribed ritalin, but it has short-lived positive effects (1-2 hours tops) and then it just zombifies me and actually exacerbates my depression. I'm also prescribed Wellbutrin SR 150mg, I can't say I have ever felt much of anything from this drug after taking it for 3 weeks.

So when I came across this thread, I went over to my healthfood store and I've purchased the following:

- Enzymatic's Forskohlii Extract 50mg @ 18% (9mg Forskolin)
- NOW L-Phenylalanine 500mg
- Dr. Dunner's "Cynarol" Artichoke Extract 470mg

- NOW 3mg Melatonin (I also have issues with sleep)
- Natural Factor's Quercetin Complex (I accidently bought the complex. It has 250mg Quercetin along with Grapeseed, "Blood Orange", and Tumeric Extracts, also with 10mg Coenzyme Q10)

Today was my first day trying this stack, I woke up and took:

10mg of methylphenidate
150mg Wellbutrin SR (for consistency)
3x 470mg of Artichoke Extract
9mg Forskolin

After an hour:

Mood: I couldn't believe the change in my mood. This is way too drastic of a change to be placebo, I have been extremely depressed lately (to the point where I don't enjoy any of my hobbies). I felt completely content most of the day, nothing seemed to bother me and my mind stayed clear. I kind of felt like I had a very subtle body-high... all my muscles felt extremely relaxed.

Motivation: I still wasn't really able to concentrate and accomplish what I needed to, the "urge" or "desire" to learn & work still isn't there. I'll see how tomorrow goes because I'm hoping to get a better night's sleep after taking the Melatonin.

I'm really interested in being prescribed a low dose of Adderall, even after reading about long-term neurotoxicity. MPH just doesn't cut it (in fact, it barely does anything at this point). I'm wondering if adding a capsule of the L-Phenylalanine in the morning might help? Right now my life is so off-track that trying Adderall seems like a necessity for me, the benefits seem like they would outweigh any negatives by a huge margin (at least temporarily).

I'll update my experiences over the next month... I am extremely hopeful.

Your situation sounds very similar to mine apart from the fact that I rarely have trouble sleeping.
I'm glad the CILTEP stacks seems to work for you. Have you tried it with only artichoke extract and forskolin?
I tried it several times, with only artichoke extract and forskolin, but nothing good happened. I tried it with generic Concerta, Adderall and Dexedrine, no luck.
I might try it later with phenylalanine and possibly quercetin, but i'm trying to cut down on buying additional supplements as it's an OCD habit of mine, and I've read here that some do not recommend quercetin in the stack anymore.

As I mentioned, I tried Concerta and had similar experiences to your Ritalin trial. Also had Wellbutrin (generic) last year but it didn't do anything good either. Adderall was pretty ok but it made me a bit of a robot. Then along came generic Dexedrine a few weeks ago. I think it is amazing and my life has changed for the better. If you are going to go the amphetamine routine, I personally recommend Dexedrine over Adderall. Good luck!

[norepinephrine]

Currently demoing quercetin on its own for its purported COMT/MAO inhibiting effects, as well as anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant, anti-histamine and ergogenic properties.

I've got all the necessary items for a "stronger" CILTEP stack now; Solaray forskohlii, Jarrow L-tyrosine and Bluebonnet quercetin. Will give it a proper trial after discerning whatever effects quercetin has on its own.

[norepinephrine]

Effects I noticed from quercetin alone after a 2 day trial:
Day 1: 1000mg, taken with a B-complex. Espresso in the morning. Very focused in to writing, even while ignoring a tea kettle I had boiling for a bit. Did some mild aerobic exercise and it was more enjoyable then usual, and the time went by quickly. Felt a mood boost for the remainder of the day.
Day 2: Woke up with a very mild hangover, dosed 1000mg before work, same as above. Good mood throughout the day, focused pretty well after the hangover lifted and felt sociable dealing with people.

Today I took 1000mg quercetin with 1000mg L-tyrosine and 1 Solaray Forskohlii upon waking. 45 minutes later I grabbed an espresso and ate breakfast.
Results: focused in on reading, goal-oriented tasks; no real overstimulation or hindrance of short-term memory like when I first dosed forskolin+artichoke extract, though the effect was also removed from the Adderall-like tunnel focusing in and stimulation that I received in my first few days of use. FWIW I've taken ~1+ months off the forksolin in hopes of lowering my tolerance and regaining the effect, but overall I'd describe today's retrial as a subtle but visible boost in energy and focus without any of the negatives so far reported from the quercetin+forskolin combo. We'll see how sleep goes later; I'm going to try my hardest to avoid the nap temptation tonight (caught me the last couple days and affected the past few nights rest).

The real test will be 1) seeing how this fares once school starts again Monday; 2) pairing this with the rest of my stack (Noopept on strict occassion, ashwagandha, maca, ginkgo, gotu); and 3) seeing if it's sustainable throughout the term. I have a challenging set of courses this term (all math and computer science) and going by the reports, it sounds like CILTEP with quercetin should pair well. (My previous experiences with CILTEP+artichoke are buried in previous pages.)

[Nootropic Cat]

The study posted by (I think) zrbarnes way upthread about quercetin/luteolin and cancer makes both of those a do-not-touch for me. Would anyone care to recap the problems they had with hesperidin?

As for forskolin, seems pretty much risk-free at high concentration and low dose, correct? The one sticking point that remains is the intraocular(sp?) pressure; particularly problematic for those of us who stare at computer screens all day. Has this been reported at the lowest (<5mg) doses?

[Nootropic Cat]

Looking back at the list of PDE4 inhibitors, Sceletium Tortuosum (kanna), containing alkaloid Mesembrine, looks interesting. Although the additional SSRI effect is unwelcome; the hope would be that the PDE4 inhibition kicks in at a pretty low, sub-SSRI dose.

[Nootropic Cat]

Here's the post I was referring to:

I'm still actively searching and hoping for a long term replacement for quercetin/lutelolin because of the possible DNA damage due to endoreduplication. It's great for killing cancer... but not so great for longevity.

Also I noticed that abelard already mentioned kanna:

Speaking of more esoteric herbal PDE4 inhibitors:

A recent study says Mulberry (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22483586) is a PDE antagonist (

PDE4D2, PDE4B2, PDE5A1, and PDE9A2). One of these receptors may be responsible for the emesis (vomitting) side effect of Rolipram, so don't say I didn't warn you.

Also there's Kanna (

http://www.ncbi.nlm....d?term=21798331) strong PDE4 inhibition but also has 5HT Transporter effects which are thought to be responsible for it's anti-depressant, anti-anxiety properties.

[norepinephrine]

Took 1000mg L-tryptophan to sleep last night; didn't have a ton of problems falling asleep, but woke up ~7 hours later feeling not wholly rested and unable to get back to bed.

Took the works today: 1tbsp. maca, 15 drops ginkgo/gotu/rosemary tincture, 5g creatine, 1000mg Super Quercetin, 1 Solaray forsohlii pill (385mg), 400mg ashwagandha, 30mg zinc monomethionine, 1 sublingual coenzymated B-complex first thing in the morning. 30 minutes later: double espresso. (And later yet: 400mg Mg. malate, 250mg uridine-5-monophosphate, 4g fish oil.)

Felt very stimulated and focused while reading a philosophy book today. Despite being a bit restless and tired from less-than-stellar sleep the night prior, I was alert, aware and able to draw in much from the text in front of me. Afterwards I did a bit of research online and had similar tunnel-like focus, once again almost in parallel to times I've taken Adderall. The commonality between today and the last time(s) this effect occurred was the ginkgo/gotu/rosemary tincture; all have some interesting effects, and rosemary has been brought up before for PDE4 inhibition I believe.

After taking the magnesium and doing 30 minutes aerobic exercise I calmed down a bit but still have decent focus. I think the stack without a doubt raises my magnesium needs, and will be supplementing such in addition to tryptophan to hopefully get some better sleep tonight. School starts tomorrow and the real test is going to be seeing how calculus, discrete mathematics and computer programming fare, as well as my motivation and focus for studying each. (I'm not really a naturally-gifted math guy but had to fight tooth-and-nail to teach myself after an extended stint taking nothing but liberal arts/social science coursework, and have since gotten pretty decent/excited about the 'dryer' math/technical stuff I now study.)

[CortisolJunkie]

hey guys, long term lurker, thought i would share my experiences. i was able to get an adderal script from my doc and wasn't feeling anything at 5mg so I thought itd be fine time to try CILTEP before taking a higher dose

the best forskolin extract iw as able to find was by enzymatic therapy at 18%, was able to get jarrow formulas 500mg artichoke at half off. the artichoke level sounded a bit high so I opened up the capsule and took half this morning along with one of the enzymatic therapy caps, so 9mg forskolin extract along with roughly 250mg artichoke. dosages sound ok?

I took that along with the 5mg adderall this morning, a little nervous! but after about 30 mins I started feeling a relaxed, loose feeling in my body. I cant say if it had any mental effect, but it was good. do people usually redose later in the day? i do feel the effects wearing off a bit now. i'll be trying it the next few days. do people notice that i has a cumulative effect?

another q, noticed that there can be some vasodialation problems and as i have had migraine troubles i have concenrns. sometimes take picamilon for anxiety which is a vasoconstrictor, should this be cool to take alongside in reasonable doses? a bunch of idiots claim that it's an MAOI but there's no way that could be true, just niacin and GABA

thanks everyone.

[norepinephrine]

Update:

The quercetin was working great for focusing effects but unfortunately my sleep quality has deteriorated since starting. I eliminated forskolin from my mix and tried just quercetin again and suffered the same shallow sleeping (despite taking tryptophan before bed) so I'm quitting everything but basic vitamins, fish oil and uridine at this point in hopes of regaining some much needed rest. If/when that ameliorates things I plan on halving my quercetin dosage in hopes of retaining positives while eliminating sides.

On that note, I recall discussion of curcumin earlier as a PDE4 inhibitor. Given curcumin benefits a multitude of things (including a boost in BDNF), has anyone tried it for CILTEP or just general cognitive purposes?

[sparkk51]

I have two questions currently:

1) Does anyone have short lived motivational effects? (1-3 hours)

2) Will taking Guanfacine to counteract the working memory issues also weaken positive benefits?

[hephaestus]

Picamilon is a vasodilator:

https://en.wikipedia...ic_applications