2626 replies to this topic

[xsiv1]

50mgs of Picamilon when used sparingly should also help chill you out. It's really the niacin that does most of the work when taken in higher doses. Also, I've found melatonin gave me a dysphoric mood each and every time I've used it. I'm a bigger fan of Suntheanine (for all of it's effects) when taken 2 hrs prior to bedtime.

[elsargente]

L-Phenylalanine didn't work as well as I suspect the dopamine metabolism is revved up and it takes too long to convert from L-Phenylalanine to L-Tyrosine to really work well.

so you take l-phenylalanine in the morning with the rest of the stack, as it is more "predictable" than the other dopamine precursors, but you take tyrosine later in the day because it is more effective than a second phenylalanine dosage?

It isn't, that's why it's not phenibut. I find, at least for me, while milder, it is more sustainable and not addictive as a sleep aid.

so you don't want it to cross the bbb then? for some reason i was under the impression that if something doesn't cross the bbb, it basically isn't effective. i'm sorry if these are all silly questions, i have a very elementary understanding of neurosciene. i'm also not sure if your last sentence is referring to 5-htp or gaba.

p.s. i want to give you a huge thanks for everything you've done here. i really love this stack and i find all of this to be very fascinating. thanks again man, you're awesome!

[abelard lindsay]

so you take l-phenylalanine in the morning with the rest of the stack, as it is more "predictable" than the other dopamine precursors, but you take tyrosine later in the day because it is more effective than a second phenylalanine dosage?

That's pretty much it.

so you don't want it to cross the bbb then? for some reason i was under the impression that if something doesn't cross the bbb, it basically isn't effective. i'm sorry if these are all silly questions, i have a very elementary understanding of neurosciene. i'm also not sure if your last sentence is referring to 5-htp or gaba.

Gaba works. It doesn't work as well as picamillon or phenibut but it works and doesn't cause a lot of side effects. I've been using it for years.

[norepinephrine]

Abelard - I'm aware of the need to redose artichoke extract, caffeine and phenylalanine/tyrosine sans forskolin. Not sure why I wrote what I did about redosing in the post above - brain fart, perhaps. My point is, though, that even with redosing, I don't really get the initial effects as I do with the typical initial onset of a morning CILTEP dose. On my next trial, I'll see about keeping it more controlled though (i.e., make sure to be on a completely empty stomach while redosing, and avoid food for 30-40 minutes after).

I have tried small dosages of Adderall IR with forskolin - and unfortunately haven't gotten the effects that ZRBarnes experienced. In my experience, it acted about like a weak dose of Adderall would, without much stimulant potentiation or increased motivation vs. just taking 10mg of Adderall alone. This was without any tyrosine or phenylalanine, though - I'm somewhat hesistant to combine either with Adderall under the same dosage for fear of overstimulation.

I have indeed switched to 95% forskolin as of recent - USPLabs powder. Just wanted to iterate to anyone just getting started and purchasing their first batch of forskohlii from a health food/nutrition store that the lesser extracts may pose headaches.

I generally target GABA via ashwagandha, given the general lack of side effects vs. other means. On days when I've dosed forskolin, I usually take either tryptophan or melatonin for sleep, but the sleep quality is rarely as good as with just dosing caffeine first thing in the morning - and that, comparatively, is worse than if I had abstained from any stimulants entirely. Wouldn't theanine be a better supplement than pure GABA for sleep?

Still trying to get the cycling/stimulant holiday thing perfect - unfortunately with my school and work schedule, I'm generally required to be 'on' 6-7 days a week if I want to excel. Not a whole lot of time for recuperation/downtime - hence, the ease in falling into the trap of caffeine tolerance, lessened sleep quality and increasing reliance on things like CILTEP or Adderall to power through.

[norepinephrine]

Almost forgot - I've found magnesium glycinate, taken a few hours prior to bed, to be one of the more potent inducers of quality sleep. Coupled with inositol, the effects are even stronger, though I became concerned about reports of inositol amplifying ADHD symptoms and ceased taking it after my bottle ran out.

Recently, though, I've been taking a break from supplemental minerals and have just been focusing on getting everything I need from juicing veggies. So far, so good - I think the combined effects of juicing with a morning CILTEP dose could be promising.

[peakplasma]

Norepinephrine, I can relate I have an intense job that requires non-stop stimulation. I mentioned it earlier in this thread that a very small amount of nicotine (1/8 of a piece of nicotine gum for me) is a really powerful potentiator of CILTEP due to its potent action via Tyrosine Hydroxylase. I'm not a smoker but I first discovered the synergy when I offered my Mother (a smoker) CILTEP and she turned into a sudoku+crossword solving maniac. I realize Nicotine has its drawbacks but if you really need that boost 0.25 mg (<1/10th of a cigarette) of nicotine will definitely provide it for 8+ hrs - the combination may turn you into a "hypersexual, gay, cross-dresser" (see Ropinrole) but that is solely from the excess dopaminergic not the nicotinic effects. Be careful.

Also, you might know that amphetamines release vasopressin and that extended use will deplete your vasopressin stores. Depleted vasopressin leads to a "burn out" feeling so daily use is counterproductive (even 5mg) but I think occassional Adderall use (twice a week?) can help even if its subtle.

Keep in my mind CILTEP by its nature via cAMP-secondary messenger may cause adrenal fatigue, releases/depletes glucagon, releases/depletes insulin and whole lot of other things.

 
In other news, I chewed 75mg of Kanna this morning with my ~6mg of Forskolin and I am having a ball! The spacey-lovey-dovey feeling has subsided and I am getting a really intense-driven-precision focus that makes me feel like a Finnish Winter War Sniper.

[Q did it!]

What about Thebromine as the stimulant for this stack, http://en.wikipedia....ki/Theobromine. Cocoa extract, just plain Cocoa or even 92%+ good quality Cocoa chocolate bar

Like other methylated xanthine derivatives, theobromine is both a:

• competitive nonselective phosphodiesterase inhibitor,^[30] which raises intracellular cAMP, activates PKA, inhibits TNF-alpha^[31][32] and leukotriene^[33] synthesis, and reduces inflammation and innate immunity^[33] and
  
• nonselective adenosine receptor antagonist.^[34]

As a phosphodiesterase inhibitor, theobromine helps prevent the phosphodiesterase enzymes from converting the active cAMP to an inactive form.^[35] cAMP works as a second messenger in many hormone- and neurotransmitter-controlled metabolic systems, such as the breakdown of glycogen. When the inactivation of cAMP is inhibited by a compound such as theobromine, the effects of the neurotransmitter or hormone that stimulated the production of cAMP are much longer-lived. In general, the net result is a stimulatory effect.^[36]

[edit]

In the human body, theobromine levels are halved between 6–10 hours after consumption.

In modern medicine, theobromine is used as a vasodilator (a blood vessel widener), a diuretic (urination aid), and heartstimulant.

1 oz of milk chocolate contains approximately 60 mg of theobromine[/size]^[18] but 1 oz of dark chocolate contains about 200 mg.]

But with the theobromine also comes Caffine


I still have yet to try Kanna with this stack but looking forword to it also I droped L-DOPA.

[usernameiuse]

Abelard, after going back on the stack (2x300mg solaray Artichoke, 12mg Nature's Herbs Forskolin, 500mg Twinlab L-Phenylalanine) I had good results for a while, but in the last two weeks or so, I have noticed a rapidly building tolerance, and now I barely even feel the supplememnts at all. So, I have 3 questions. If any of these have already been asked/answered, forgive me.

1) I have tried cycling every which way. taking a day or two off L-Phenylalanine just results in feeling lazy/unmotivated/depressed (probably because of the increased dopaminerase; I'm sure this would go away as my dopamine levels restabilized). Cycling off Artichoke or Forskolin doesn't feel quite as bad, but I am afraid to do it often as I seem to lose alot of my built-up CILTEP effects. So: what is the best way to cycle CILTEP to keep tolerance from forming? Should it even be cycled at all, since it is a "long term" thing?

2) Can the effects of CILTEP actually be "lost" if the stack is quit for a few days, or is that all in my head?

3) I noticed you are taking quite a lot more dopaminergics now than me. This might solve my tolerance problem, but is it safe? Same question for the afternoon N-ALT.

If you could answer these, I would hugely appreciate it.

*Anecdote - Sleep is crucial on CILTEP. I find not getting good quality sleep is very detrimental to the supplements.

[norepinephrine]

Peakplasma - thanks for the tip. I'm an ex-smoker, but into trying nicotine in gum form for a short-term boost. Smoke makes me nauseous these days, though.

That bit about vasopressin actually explains a lot about Adderall for me. I've always wondered why my recall from an Adderall study session, keeping study time constant, is always better than versus plain old caffeine.

I've been supplementing with Gaia Herb's Adrenal Support to aid some fatigued adrenals. More so than that though, taking a caffeine holiday over spring break has been amazing - sleeping more and better, with less awakenings, and feeling more refreshed upon waking. Alas - don't have the drive to sprint straight out of bed and into studying as I normally do, and my ability to focus isn't where it'd be with coffee, but the time away should at least give my dopamine receptors time to recuperate for Spring term.

Q did it! - that's actually pretty interesting about cocoa. I've been meaning to pick up some cacao nibs and run a trial on them vs. coffee - I remember years ago feeling a markedly psychoactive effect from ground cacao nibs made into drinking chocolate, but have abstained since when I found it was aggravating skin problems.

[peakplasma]

Peakplasma - thanks for the tip. I'm an ex-smoker, but into trying nicotine in gum form for a short-term boost. Smoke makes me nauseous these days, though.

That bit about vasopressin actually explains a lot about Adderall for me. I've always wondered why my recall from an Adderall study session, keeping study time constant, is always better than versus plain old caffeine.

You may find this interesting.

The release of vasopressin by nicotine: further studies on its site of action

Also, I was hoping to get a good citation directly linking vasopressin and amphetamine but I can't find any good studies; regardless I'm sure they are linked at least indirectly via catecholamine release.

[Reformed-Redan]

Wonderin if adding this would help:
http://www.swansonvi...125-mg-60-sgels

[xsiv1]

Norepinephrine, I can relate I have an intense job that requires non-stop stimulation. I mentioned it earlier in this thread that a very small amount of nicotine (1/8 of a piece of nicotine gum for me) is a really powerful potentiator of CILTEP due to its potent action via Tyrosine Hydroxylase. I'm not a smoker but I first discovered the synergy when I offered my Mother (a smoker) CILTEP and she turned into a sudoku+crossword solving maniac. I realize Nicotine has its drawbacks but if you really need that boost 0.25 mg (<1/10th of a cigarette) of nicotine will definitely provide it for 8+ hrs - the combination may turn you into a "hypersexual, gay, cross-dresser" (see Ropinrole) but that is solely from the excess dopaminergic not the nicotinic effects. Be careful.

Also, you might know that amphetamines release vasopressin and that extended use will deplete your vasopressin stores. Depleted vasopressin leads to a "burn out" feeling so daily use is counterproductive (even 5mg) but I think occassional Adderall use (twice a week?) can help even if its subtle.

Keep in my mind CILTEP by its nature via cAMP-secondary messenger may cause adrenal fatigue, releases/depletes glucagon, releases/depletes insulin and whole lot of other things.

 
In other news, I chewed 75mg of Kanna this morning with my ~6mg of Forskolin and I am having a ball! The spacey-lovey-dovey feeling has subsided and I am getting a really intense-driven-precision focus that makes me feel like a Finnish Winter War Sniper.

This is very interesting information for me as I'm on Day 45 (excluding the 2 day weekend breaks) and I'd be concerned more about the insulin/glucagon stores as this can have wide-weeping effects on overall physical health. "Releasing insulin" a loaded statement since a dramatic spike is of course, not always opportunistic. I'll have to come up with something.

[jadamgo]

Okay, update on capping the CILTEP ingredients together. It works! It cuts out the afternoon fatigue without causing insomnia or requiring the addition of stimulants. I take 2 capsules of mixed artichoke/forskolin in the morning, about 1.5 capsules' worth of NOW Foods artichoke and 3-4mg forskolin. Then in the afternoon, I take a third capsule, or if I'm really starting to get tired, 2 capsules.

Daily dosage: Approximately 3 capsules of NOW Food Artichoke Extract, and about 5mg forskolin. This works better than taking all the forskolin in the morning and a second full dose of artichoke in the afternoon.

The catch? The second dose can't come any later than 3 pm (15h) or it will cause onset insomnia.

[xsiv1]

Okay, update on capping the CILTEP ingredients together. It works! It cuts out the afternoon fatigue without causing insomnia or requiring the addition of stimulants. I take 2 capsules of mixed artichoke/forskolin in the morning, about 1.5 capsules' worth of NOW Foods artichoke and 3-4mg forskolin. Then in the afternoon, I take a third capsule, or if I'm really starting to get tired, 2 capsules.

Daily dosage: Approximately 3 capsules of NOW Food Artichoke Extract, and about 5mg forskolin. This works better than taking all the forskolin in the morning and a second full dose of artichoke in the afternoon.

The catch? The second dose can't come any later than 3 pm (15h) or it will cause onset insomnia.

Ok so what time do you normally go to bed? I'm in bed by 11 the latest on a work night.

Also, I have 500mg Artichoke Extract from Jarrow Formulas...are people using 2 of these in the morning? Also, my Coleus Forskohli is from Planetary Herbals, Forskohlii, Full Spectrum, 130 mg with Forskohlii Root Extract (ForsLean) (20% forskohlin). I've been taking one of each in the mornings with my NALT or L-PA. By the afternoon, I've taken AL's suggestion and alternated between 350mgs NALT, or 200-400 Sulbutiamine and some days nothing. Should I be taking 1000mg of the Artichoke and less of the Forskohlii? Anyone?

[xsiv1]

Wonderin if adding this would help:
http://www.swansonvi...125-mg-60-sgels

That also looks like an interesting supplement. Perhaps as an addition to my afternoon (2pm) lift. When were you thinking it would be suitable to use? In conjunction with the Artichoke/Coleus stack or as a replacement for one?

[Reformed-Redan]

Wonderin if adding this would help:
http://www.swansonvi...125-mg-60-sgels

That also looks like an interesting supplement. Perhaps as an addition to my afternoon (2pm) lift. When were you thinking it would be suitable to use? In conjunction with the Artichoke/Coleus stack or as a replacement for one?

At 3 like jadamgo is taking. It should counteract any subjective feelings of an ATP crash that may occur after such elevated levels of cAMP.

[xsiv1]

Wonderin if adding this would help:
http://www.swansonvi...125-mg-60-sgels

That also looks like an interesting supplement. Perhaps as an addition to my afternoon (2pm) lift. When were you thinking it would be suitable to use? In conjunction with the Artichoke/Coleus stack or as a replacement for one?

At 3 like jadamgo is taking. It should counteract any subjective feelings of an ATP crash that may occur after such elevated levels of cAMP.

I've added it to my cart. I'll give it a whirl since it's not too far away from my workouts at 4. Thanks for the link and I'll post back to let others know what I think.

[abelard lindsay]

The NALT + 200mg Caffeine is really necessary for me lately. Taking the stack at 8am, at about 2pm I start to fall asleep, even if I slept well. The NALT and caffeine wakes me back up and keeps me going for the rest of the day.

I don't take the Kanna stack everyday because it's a bit weird. I like that I get the high scores on cambridgebrainsciences.com but somehow it causes me to have too many deep philosophical thoughts that can take me out of being in the moment. It's also a bit strange because I get really complicated thoughts and I don't remember exactly what they were later on. Maybe I should take audio recordings? I am still trying to figure it out. I'm waiting for my zembrin at the end of the week.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 27 March 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

I don't take the Kanna stack everyday because it's a bit weird. I like that I get the high scores on cambridgebrainsciences.com but somehow it causes me to have too many deep philosophical thoughts that can take me out of being in the moment. It's also a bit strange because I get really complicated thoughts and I don't remember exactly what they were later on. Maybe I should take audio recordings? I am still trying to figure it out. I'm waiting for my zembrin at the end of the week.

What makes you say that? I mean that high serotonin levels cause deep thoughts.

Edited by redan, 27 March 2013 - 03:49 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

I don't take the Kanna stack everyday because it's a bit weird. I like that I get the high scores on cambridgebrainsciences.com but somehow it causes me to have too many deep philosophical thoughts that can take me out of being in the moment. It's also a bit strange because I get really complicated thoughts and I don't remember exactly what they were later on. Maybe I should take audio recordings? I am still trying to figure it out. I'm waiting for my zembrin at the end of the week.

What makes you say that? I mean that high serotonin levels cause deep thoughts.

I'm not really sure if it's the SSRI effect or just the extremely strong PDE4 inhibition, or both that caused the strange effects. It's wasn't a bad experience, it's just not an experience that I want to have every day. It's a bit hard to get used to.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 27 March 2013 - 04:06 AM.

[peakplasma]

I'm not really sure if it's the SSRI effect or just the extremely strong PDE4 inhibition, or both that caused the strange effects. It's wasn't a bad experience, it's just not an experience that I want to have every day. It's a bit hard to get used to.

Its really weird... after chewing 75mg, i feel like I'm bouncing somewhere between Winter War Sniper and a Care Bear.

[xsiv1]

I'm not really sure if it's the SSRI effect or just the extremely strong PDE4 inhibition, or both that caused the strange effects. It's wasn't a bad experience, it's just not an experience that I want to have every day. It's a bit hard to get used to.

Its really weird... after chewing 75mg, i feel like I'm bouncing somewhere between Winter War Sniper and a Care Bear.

Something would tell me that at that point, I'd be questioning whether or not it's continued use is, well...nootropic or psychedelic lol

[peakplasma]

.... nootropic or psychedelic lol

It could be both. Its definitely great for creativity... maybe instead of changing Kanna I should find a more creative job? ahaha

[xsiv1]

heh, I'd hazard to guess we could all use a bit more creativity in our 'jobs' or 'careers' or, at the very least, the leeway to do so. I can't for the life of me find the link where I read that Kanna most closely resembled Clomipramine in it's MOA but now when I research it further, everything I find seems to point to SSRI and not tricyclic. UGH. False memory? idk

[Reformed-Redan]

I think its the SSRi activity and then the wearing off of it. Don't want to induce any imbalance.

[jadamgo]

Ok so what time do you normally go to bed? I'm in bed by 11 the latest on a work night.

Also, I have 500mg Artichoke Extract from Jarrow Formulas...are people using 2 of these in the morning? Also, my Coleus Forskohli is from Planetary Herbals, Forskohlii, Full Spectrum, 130 mg with Forskohlii Root Extract (ForsLean) (20% forskohlin). I've been taking one of each in the mornings with my NALT or L-PA. By the afternoon, I've taken AL's suggestion and alternated between 350mgs NALT, or 200-400 Sulbutiamine and some days nothing. Should I be taking 1000mg of the Artichoke and less of the Forskohlii? Anyone?

I go to bed around 12:30 am (0h30) and try to be asleep by 1.

Are you saying that each Forskholii capsule you take is 130mg of 20% forskolin? If so, you're taking 26mg per day of forskolin. That's 5 times higher than what's recommended.

[xsiv1]

Errrggg. Sorry, I meant that's what I ended up buying. I've been taking Enzymatic Therapy, Coleus Forskohlii Extract 50mgs The root extract is standardized to contain 18% forskolin (9 mg) BUT I have now purchased another brand (without giving enough thought to the milligrams on it) instead assuming it's standardized to 20% and I'd be ok. I didn't even think there'd be that big a disparity I guess. Damn it. How the hell am I going to break that ish up now..in quarters no less. Oh well, I'll have to figure it out. I was looking for highly rated brand types with good reviews on iherb and came across this one because the other was either sold out or something I don't recall. I guess I'll do what you did and combine my Jarrow Artichoke Extract (500mgs) with like 5-10mgs of Coleus in the morning with Acetyl-L-Tyrosine and then I have the order from Swanson for the Peak ATP being shipped out today or tomorrow, so I'll try using that a bit earlier and assess. I wouldn't have given the Coleus a second glance had it not been for you pointing it out because of an oversight on my part. Thanks. Why such a disparity in Coleus extracts? I'm think at higher doses it must exert more beneficial cardiac/BP effects...at least according to Enzymatic Therapy. I haven't looked into the research for sole reason. Now I'm wondering if there's room to stuff some in one of the existing AE capsules lol.since they're at 500 and the Now Brand I was using was 450mgs I believe.

[jadamgo]

I don't think any of the forskolin products out there are made for people to take with the CILTEP stack. People who just take forskolin by itself need doses of at least 20mg per dose to do anything at all, and some people take significantly higher doses. You could poke around M&M for more info on that; I'm not personally familiar with using forskolin by itself but a lot of people on M&M do use it that way.

The forskholii extracts we've been using for CILTEP are, honestly, the cheap products too low in forskolin to be effective for fat-burning or other metabolic purposes. They just so happen to be perfect for our uses, because it only takes about 5mg per day to synergize properly with our preferred PDE4 inhibitors like luteolin. My forskolin source is Now Foods "Diet Support", which I'm very confident has no real fat-burning effects, but if you put "ForsLean® Standardized Forskolin" on the label, people will assume it works and buy it. I mean, with a name like ForsLean® and an endorsement from Dr. Oz, it must work, right?!

Anyway, I'd suggest you bite the bullet and empty out those forskholii capsules. The easiest thing to do is probably to combine the forskholii with something like piracetam as the filler (really any powder will work), and put 2.5mg of active forskolin in each capsule. That way you can take a morning dose of 1 forskolin + 2 artichoke, and then an afternoon dose of 1F+1A.

Alternatives: 5mg forskolin per capsule, taken in the morning, then use caffeine or sulbutiamine or tyrosine in the afternoon to prevent the crash. Or just combine the artichoke extract with the forskholii extract in a ratio of 1g artichoke : 3mg forskolin.

Whatever floats your boat -- just don't keep taking the 26mg capsules!

[Michalis.Biochem]

This thread has yet again sparked my interest for noots.
So as I was searching for a cheap pde4 inhibitor, I came across pentoxyfilline. Which I've got readily available, do you think it would work for the intended purpose, or should I stick with quercetin/luteolin?

[abelard lindsay]

This thread has yet again sparked my interest for noots.
So as I was searching for a cheap pde4 inhibitor, I came across pentoxyfilline. Which I've got readily available, do you think it would work for the intended purpose, or should I stick with quercetin/luteolin?

I did not see anything about pentoxyfiline being a selective PDE4 inhibitor as opposed to a general PDE inhibitor in the literature so I personally don't think it would be worth the risk, especially given the side effect profile. There is one selective PDE4 inhibitor that is approved: roflumilast. It is used as an anti-inflammatory for people with chronic lung diseases. From what I've read on the lung problem forums, the gastrointestinal side effects are bad but tolerable given that it gives such relief to these people who are going through a lot of pain to keep breathing. A forum user tried this earlier in the thread but had to quit because of the well known GI side effects of this drug.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 30 March 2013 - 06:18 AM.