2626 replies to this topic

[KoolK3n]

There is also the possibility of buying bulk Kanna and just doing an extract.

I have 50 grams of the 10x extract. Its been sitting in my closet for almost a year. I'm gonna give this herb a trial run!

[Michaelodeon]

Hello all, my first post in this thread and on Longecity in general. I had a few questions regarding this experimental stack. How much active Forskolin and artichoke extract would you recommend starting with? I know that there is an abundance on information in original post and throughout this massive thread, however it seems like many people are trying varying dosages. As a side note I am a very positive responder to the racetam family as well as Noopept (my personal favorite so far). I plan on discontinuing all other substance use before attempting this stack.

[xsiv1]

Hello all, my first post in this thread and on Longecity in general. I had a few questions regarding this experimental stack. How much active Forskolin and artichoke extract would you recommend starting with? I know that there is an abundance on information in original post and throughout this massive thread, however it seems like many people are trying varying dosages. As a side note I am a very positive responder to the racetam family as well as Noopept (my personal favorite so far). I plan on discontinuing all other substance use before attempting this stack.

I started with 400-500 mgs of Artichoke Extract (Now Brand and then Jarrow) along with 350mgs of Jarrow NALT/or 500mgs of L-Phenylalanine and 10-15mgs of Coleus extract. I definitely felt that worked for me until I got to about Day 30 where I noticed some sleep disturbances and perhaps some afternoon fatigue. Anyways, I ended up taking the stack first thing in the morning with a multivitamin, B-complex, and Vitamin C for better conversion of the dopamine precursor. I began to take weekends off where I'd use whatever racetam I felt like. Sometimes piracetam and sometime Ani or Ani & Noopept. On Monday mornings, I'd go back to CILTEP. It gave me a nice "POW" feeling I needed to start the work week. I noticed I became tired later in the day around 2-2:30 regardless of my diet. I began to add in a supplement at this time like NALT or Sulbutiamine amongst others since I've been trying to mix it up. I'm trying Peak ATP right now and although I'm not using it twice a day, I am noticing a subtle energy boost that carries me through to my workout after 4pm. I believe I'm on Day 57 and am probably going to take 2 AE capsules, a dopamine precursor and somewhere between 5 and 10mgs of Coleus forskohlii. I think I'll probably go up to Day 90 of use while still taking Saturdays and Sundays off and then move on to another stack. For me, CILTEP essentially wakes me up first and foremost in the morning, enhances focus at work while performing critical tasks and is doing something for motivation. For being relatively inexpensive, and lasting into the day, in addition to enhancing my libido..I think it's definitely worth a shot for anyone thinking about it - especially those who have some experience with nootropics like the racetams. It's a nice change if you tune it properly to work for you.

[BioFreak]

I've been starting with the ciltep stack too, together with uridine.
My stack:
8x320mg artichoke extract with 2,5% cynarin (maybe I am mistaken, but I tried to get as much cynarin as in the now brand, if I calculated it right, assuming that the luteloin content should be similar to 2x 450mg now artichoke) in sets of 2 tabs throughout the day
about 5mg forskolin in the morning
600-900mg ump (today max 600)
about 5g mucuna pruriens seed powder/day split in 3 portions
(plus a good b complex, cysteine, nac, vit c, baking soda, selenium, b12, msm, alcar, and very low dose noopept, essentially powder that would stink to 2 fingers after touching it)

today a technican explained to me a moderately complex machine, with all details, meaning all parts of it, what they do, what connections they have, some parameters of those parts, and some telemetry of his analysis device.
5 hours later I was able to write down a schematic including all infos that I understood, and that I did take a close look at.
So I did pretty much only NOT remember what I did not understand in the first place, plus a bit of information at the end of the lesson which lasted aprox 1-2 hours. That was in a topic I am not familiar with. Its the first time I put the stack to a learning test, unwillingly.
Pretty good, considering I remembered everything I understood, and I understood 98%. the remaining 2% I didn't take a good look at or did not ask if I was not 100% sure what it meant.

pretty impressive for me.

I'd love feedback about artichoke extract - it did wonders for my digestion, seriously, but I wonder if I should cut back, its quite expensive in that dosage. ( the supplement is artichoke 8350mg equivalent from health aid, providing 190mg artichoke powder and 204mg artichoke extract with min 2,5% cynarin)

Not sure about other effects such as mental endurance, mood lifting, a waking up effect, which I seem to have too, but uridine plays a bigger part I *think*. Also, libido seems a bit lower. I am getting way more things done, but I also think it is mainly uridine playing its part, considering that it gets better, the more uridine I take.

What else should I observe to rate how I am doing on the ciltep stack? I'll try to learn something for sure.

Would it be a good idea to experiment with higher forskolin dosages?

Edited by BioFreak, 12 April 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[norepinephrine]

Yesterday I took 200mg M&M kanna powder, 15mg forskolin extract (95%), an eyedropper of ginkgo/gotu tincture (which, in my personal experience, nearly always combines well with the rest of CILTEP), 500mg L-tyrosine and 3000mcg methyl B12 (to correct a deficiency). In addition, I went about 50% above my usual caffeine intake for the morning (3 shots of espresso, vs. the usual 2) and was going on around 5 hours of sleep in anticipation of two math tests. I dosed CILTEP w/ kanna around 5am.

Focus was good studying in the morning. I felt more clearheaded than usual at that hour in the morning and mathematical material was pretty intuitive to pick up. My wakefulness was enhanced, though not like a stronger stimulant; I still felt the need for either periodic, brief periods of rest, or alternatively, a brisk bike ride.

By 12pm, I drank a bit more coffee and redosed ginkgo before taking a second exam. By now, I was a bit more tired, but still relatively awake.

By 2pm, I had another 500mg of l-tyrosine and a final dose of ginkgo before heading to work. The comedown started, and I felt considerably tired and foggy at work, but still functioning at my regular level with no drop in organization and productivty. This feeling remained until 6:30 or 7pm; definitely not what I had been accustomed to with artichoke extract, but perhaps I can find ways to ameliorate it.

By about 10pm, I did fall asleep like a rock, even without the help of exogenous aid. I recently picked up some SN Theanine Serene (with GABA, taurine, magnesium and Relora) and it's made a larger difference in improving my sleep duration/quality than anything else short of total caffeine cessation; the effects seem to last a night or two past dosing as well, so that could have been part of the reason sleep was so effortless last night. (In recent past, I could tackle a full day (awakening around 5am) with no real naps or breaks, and still have a little difficulty falling asleep at the end of the day.)

All in all, the jury is still out for me; I'm looking forward to stacking kanna CILTEP with piracetam and Noopept, but for the moment I need to get to know the effects of kanna on its own first before adding a racetam.

[mettmett]

it appears that for our purposes we want zembrin (unfermented) with higher mesembrenone content.The mood and mind brand states it has "High Mesembrine content."..which means its probably fermented.

http://www.sceletium...ul-information/

"In the paper by Harvey et al (2011) attached, mesembrine was the most active alkaloid against the 5-HT transporter, while mesembrenone was active against the 5-HT transporter and PDE4"

"As you know, the standardized alkaloid content of the cultivar of sceletium used in Zembrin is key to its specific benefits. The extraction procedure ensures that the alkaloid profile resembles that of the plant itself. I believe that traditionally sceletium was fermented which alters the bioactive composition and therefore the effects."

[blueinfinity]

are you not getting that "tired" or "depleted" feeling requiring more sleep after the artichoke+forskolin? or is that what the dopamine support and n-a-c is for?

[dubrontsidah]

abelard lindsay, can you memorize a list of each; random words, numbers, and foreign words, then see how effective is your reacall after a week or a month?

We'd compare your performance with a control. Might be placebo or just you've learned how to effectively study.

Maybe I'll try it with a list of Spanish vocab words. The irregular verb conjugations are good for that kind of thing. I don't want to fill my long term memory up with random words and numbers .

Ok, we can do a study on this compound. All members taking the CILEP stack while on only the CILEP stack would be administered a list of Spanish verbs/words for a 10-20 minute study session. Another control group would take the same test with nothing in their system. I'd say there are at least 10 people taking the CILEP stack which is OK for this test. Another 10 members could just give the 10-20 min learning session. After a week we will test recall from everyone. After a month we would again test recall and record results. Any members who know some memory methods should stand out statistically (showing that maybe a learned memory method was at play rather than CILEP or in the control group), unless everyone knows some mnemonic techniques. What do you think?

Spanish is a romantic language and therefor there will be interference. You need to do a list of random letters and numbers, no spanish.

[peakplasma]

are you not getting that "tired" or "depleted" feeling requiring more sleep after the artichoke+forskolin? or is that what the dopamine support and n-a-c is for?

Did you hear Tim Ferris say this?

It causes "depletion" but only after overuse and sometimes not at all. The stack works on adrenals so it may eventually cause some burnout but not necessarily.

Personally, it hasn't tired out my adrenals yet.. but for a few people it has.

[blueinfinity]

are you not getting that "tired" or "depleted" feeling requiring more sleep after the artichoke+forskolin? or is that what the dopamine support and n-a-c is for?

Did you hear Tim Ferris say this?

It causes "depletion" but only after overuse and sometimes not at all. The stack works on adrenals so it may eventually cause some burnout but not necessarily.

Personally, it hasn't tired out my adrenals yet.. but for a few people it has.

yes i did actually see a video a while back where tim mentions it, but i have also seen in said by other posters on this sight, im considering taking this but do not know if i should wait to see how the uridine stack that mrhappy started will react first, but very interested in both,

[BioFreak]

For anyone getting adrenal burnout I would recommend mucuna seed powder ( not the extract ). It has shown not only to replete dopamine, but the other catecholamines as well. 5g/day should do it for most...

[chung_pao]

I've been extremely fascinated with the D1 (and D5) receptors lately.
They seem to control Adenylyl cyclase activation and many studies indicate that this activation underlies much of the entire LTP-process!

The below studies validate exactly what this thread is about: LTP-stimulation through cAMP.
(D1/D5 activation of Adenylyl Cyclase -> cAMP -> CREB -> Protein synthesis-dependent LTP)

http://www.physiolog...ondens/Ref6.pdf
"D1 but not D5 Dopamine Receptors Are Critical for LTP"

http://cercor.oxford...18/1/1.full.pdf
"These results indicate that dopamine produces
a synapse-specific enhancement of early LTP through D1/D5
receptors and cAMP"

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1475810/
"An agonist of the D2 receptor, which is negatively coupled to adenylyl cyclase through G alpha i, did not induce potentiation."

http://www.jneurosci...3/7478.full.pdf
"Under these conditions, D1/D5 agonist
6-chloro-PB and forskolin produced a larger enhancement of
LTP (20 –25%), restoring it to the control level."
"These results indicate that dopamine produces
a synapse-specific enhancement of early LTP through D1/D5
receptors and cAMP."

http://www.pnas.org/...7/2446.full.pdf
"Agonists of the dopamine D1/D5 receptors that are positively coupled to adenylyl cyclase specifically induce a slowly developing long-lasting potentiation of the field excitatory postsynaptic potential in the CA1 region of the hippocampus."

I've looked everywhere but CAN'T seem to find anything that stimulates the D1/D5 receptors selectively...
Since D2, D3, D4 inhibits the formation of Adenylyl cyclase and thus cAMP, this is what I'm trying to avoid.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Stepholidine
Stepholidine seems, in theory, to be perfect for the purpose of LTP-stimulation. It is a D1 agonist, and also a D2 antagonist!
However, I've also read reports of it being a strong sedative and GABAergic, inducing sleep and dizziness.
Some studies say that it's a D1 and D2 antagonist.

Does anyone else know of any selective D1/D5 agonists?
Or do I have to try to get my hands on this chemical for "research purposes" (a selective D1/D5 agonist).
"http://en.wikipedia....wiki/SKF-38,393"
The above substance has been shown to facilitate LTP and reverse the deterioration of memory that comes with aging.

My point is this; a selective D1/D5 agonist, instead of Caffeine, would probably contribute signficantly to the Chemically-induced LTP attribute of this stack.
Any thoughts?

Edited by chung_pao, 17 April 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[johnj88]

Hey abelard lindsay, what vendor did you purchase your Zembrin from?

I saw this linked posted a while ago: http://www.vitasprin...CFQxxQgodxGYA-Q

and STUPIDLY purchased from a yahoo based website. I'm pretty sure I just got scammed / credit card info stolen. Have you purchased from them / gotten your Zembrin? It's been a week after the purchase, and they still haven't shipped yet. A quick google search shows many complaints.

damn it, I just read a page back. I purchased before that post. DO NOT ORDER FROM THAT WEBSITE.

Edited by johnj88, 18 April 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[xsiv1]

Hey abelard lindsay, what vendor did you purchase your Zembrin from?

I saw this linked posted a while ago: http://www.vitasprin...CFQxxQgodxGYA-Q

and STUPIDLY purchased from a yahoo based website. I'm pretty sure I just got scammed / credit card info stolen. Have you purchased from them / gotten your Zembrin? It's been a week after the purchase, and they still haven't shipped yet. A quick google search shows many complaints.

damn it, I just read a page back. I purchased before that post. DO NOT ORDER FROM THAT WEBSITE.

Uh, a page or so back, I stated this very thing as a caution to anyone who considered purchasing from them. Cancel the credit card and after reading the reviews, I'm not sure if you'll be able to get the product. I know that iHerb use to sell it.

[peakplasma]

and STUPIDLY purchased from a yahoo based website. I'm pretty sure I just got scammed / credit card info stolen. Have you purchased from them / gotten your Zembrin?

I'm sorry you ended up ordering from the scam website - hopefully nothing too bad will happen.

iHerb has Zembrin but its a bit pricey... although, I'm not sure you'll find it cheaper anywhere else.

[abelard lindsay]

Hey abelard lindsay, what vendor did you purchase your Zembrin from?

I saw this linked posted a while ago: http://www.vitasprin...CFQxxQgodxGYA-Q

and STUPIDLY purchased from a yahoo based website. I'm pretty sure I just got scammed / credit card info stolen. Have you purchased from them / gotten your Zembrin? It's been a week after the purchase, and they still haven't shipped yet. A quick google search shows many complaints.

damn it, I just read a page back. I purchased before that post. DO NOT ORDER FROM THAT WEBSITE.

I ordered from them with paypal and got everything delivered. I didn't read the google reviews first, obviously. If you don't like that website try iherb (http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/46069).

Has anyone got Zembrin yet? I've been taking this for about two weeks now and it's great. It makes the difference in entertainment value between watching entertainment TV and watching Coursera lectures or Khan Academy basically nil.

As far as the afternoon crash goes, I always get it about 2pm and then I take some NALT and caffeine and then everything's back to normal. This is sort of like piracetam/choline. The brain's metabolic pathway is using more raw materials so it has to be resupplied.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 18 April 2013 - 02:04 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

My point is this; a selective D1/D5 agonist, instead of Caffeine, would probably contribute signficantly to the Chemically-induced LTP attribute of this stack.
Any thoughts?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Dihydrexidine is a selective D1/D5 drug but it caused profound hypotension (low blood pressure) so didn't make it through clinical trials. Another compound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-86,929 caused dyskenisia (motor control disorder) so it also failed clinical trials.

That's the problem with agonists for receptors. The receptors often control a lot of different things in the body that are unrelated, thus causing unexpected problems when they are significantly activated. There are also problems of upregulation and downregulation of receptors and apoptosis (cell death) of the cells the receptors interact with with direct stimulation. Dopamine receptors in particular seem to have a lot of problems.

In my humble opinion, it's best to treat dopamine receptors as a component of the body that should be left alone and instead it's better to work with the systems that provide raw materials to stimulate them (Tyrosine Hydroxylase/Precursor Amino Acids) and to increase the sensitivity of the systems that they activate in other parts of the brain (cAMP/CREB/LTP).

Edited by abelard lindsay, 18 April 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[johnj88]

Yeah I purchased it from vitasprings before the warning post a page back. No suspicious credit card activity yet, but it's been too long without shipment.

I've seen concerns about adrenal fatigue thrown around. How do we know that the afternoon fatigue with CILTEP isn't from a drain on the adrenals? Ive been getting tired in the afternoon, but I'm not sure if it's cause of the stack or from just general sleep deprivation.

[johnj88]

Abelard, what's your caffeine schedule like? Is it just one bolus of 200 mg caff in the morning, then another at 2 pm? I feel like that would only last me a max 2 hrs or so per 200mg. On CILTEP, I feel the constant need to drink coffee all day long to maximize my learning. I should probably switch to green tea.

Also, does Zembrin last you as long as artichoke? You mentioned that Kanna had a short duration. Not an issue with Zembrin?

[Ames]

For anyone getting adrenal burnout I would recommend mucuna seed powder ( not the extract ). It has shown not only to replete dopamine, but the other catecholamines as well. 5g/day should do it for most...

I can't agree and have to strongly recommend against this. If you search the forums, you'll find various members here figuratively screaming against the neurotoxicity induced by L-Dopa. I previously talked about my experimentation with mucuna before I was aware of its potential side effects. Listen to the better educated guys on this forum. There are a good number of them. There is a lot of misinformation about Mucuna on the net, in the form of claims like "it's not as bad as synthetic L-Dopa becasue its a full spectrum form" (paraphrasing). There's even a study that seems to indicate as much, but I call BS on all of it. Such claims cause people like you and I to discard warnings about (Mucuna) L-Dopa that should be followed.

Mucuna feels great, at first, until the potential side effects start appearing. Also, when they appear, they seem to be semi-permanent to permanent. I went very slow and stopped at the first sign of side effect. I still have semi-regular mild side effects 5-6 months later. However, most guys do not go slow and therefore have the potential to induce worse long term effect, imo, before they stop. 5 grams is an insane amount to recommend of almost anything, whether it is potentially neurotoxic or not. This is. I was taking a small fraction of that amount. My advice is not to mess with mucuna, even if you're only noticing benefit at the present time.

Edited by golgi1, 18 April 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Q did it!]

For anyone getting adrenal burnout I would recommend mucuna seed powder ( not the extract ). It has shown not only to replete dopamine, but the other catecholamines as well. 5g/day should do it for most...

I can't agree and have to strongly recommend against this. If you search the forums, you'll find various members here figuratively screaming against the neurotoxicity induced by L-Dopa. I previously talked about my experimentation with mucuna before I was aware of its potential side effects. Listen to the better educated guys on this forum. There are a good number of them. There is a lot of misinformation about Mucuna on the net, in the form of claims like "it's not as bad as synthetic L-Dopa becasue its a full spectrum form" (paraphrasing). There's even a study that seems to indicate as much, but I call BS on all of it, and such claims cause people like you and I to discard warnings about (Mucuna) L-Dopa that should be followed.

Mucuna feels great, at first, until the potential side effects start appearing. Also, when they appear, they seem to be semi-permanent to permanent. I went very slow and stopped at the first sign of side effect. I still have semi-regular mild side effects 5-6 months later. However, most guys do not go slow and therefore have the potential to induce worse long term effect, imo, before they stop. 5 grams is an insane amount to recommend of almost anything, whether it is potentially neurotoxic or not. This is. I was taking a small fraction of that amount. My advice is not to mess with mucuna, even if you're only noticing benefit as of the present time.

Yes stay away from L-Dopa. Was on it for a week, first 2 days were great the rest were simply put, bad. There are better and safer dopamine precursors out there.

[Ames]

Re: Kanna - I had looked into this a couple of months ago to battle some anxiety, and ultimately decided against it due to several reports of some fairly unpleasant addiction occuring with repeated use. Now, upon search, I can't find said reports. I thought they were on Erowid (a good source for semi-recreational - like Kanna - and recreational substance anecdotal reports). However, I didn't read through them all again. I'm not going to search now, but perhaps look into the potential for addiction before anyone dives into it head-first, so-to-speak. Is Zembrin so much different from a crude Kanna preparation that addictive properties might be mitigated? That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I'm interested. Anyway, maybe I'm just being overly cautious and maybe I'm underinformed at this point. I concede that all of my information came from anecdotal reports.

Edited by golgi1, 18 April 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Re: Kanna - I had looked into this a couple of months ago to battle some anxiety, and ultimately decided against it due to several reports of some fairly unpleasant addiction occuring with repeated use. Now, upon search, I can't find said reports. I thought they were on Erowid (a good source for semi-recreational - like Kanna - and recreational substance anecdotal reports). However, I didn't read through them all again. I'm not going to search now, but perhaps look into the potential for addiction before anyone dives into it head-first, so-to-speak. Is Zembrin so much different from a crude Kanna preparation that addictive properties might be mitigated? That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I'm interested. Anyway, maybe I'm just being overly cautious and maybe I'm underinformed at this point. I concede that all of my information came from anecdotal reports.

Kanna has no addictive potential. Dunno who or why someone said that.

[YurtaevEngr]

I'm interested in Zembrin. dual ssri and pde4 inhibition is supposedly synergistic against anxiety/depression.


Abelard, have you noticed any difference in your mood while taking zembrin? Any anti-depressant like effects?

[xsiv1]

If Kanna does exhibit SSRI-like effects, you can probably expect some form of SSRI like withdrawal albeit to a lesser extent depending on the dosages and duration of use. I 'know' I read that somewhere and I'll look for my source after work ; )

[Metagene]

For anyone getting adrenal burnout I would recommend mucuna seed powder ( not the extract ). It has shown not only to replete dopamine, but the other catecholamines as well. 5g/day should do it for most...

I can't agree and have to strongly recommend against this. If you search the forums, you'll find various members here figuratively screaming against the neurotoxicity induced by L-Dopa. I previously talked about my experimentation with mucuna before I was aware of its potential side effects. Listen to the better educated guys on this forum. There are a good number of them. There is a lot of misinformation about Mucuna on the net, in the form of claims like "it's not as bad as synthetic L-Dopa becasue its a full spectrum form" (paraphrasing). There's even a study that seems to indicate as much, but I call BS on all of it. Such claims cause people like you and I to discard warnings about (Mucuna) L-Dopa that should be followed.

Mucuna feels great, at first, until the potential side effects start appearing. Also, when they appear, they seem to be semi-permanent to permanent. I went very slow and stopped at the first sign of side effect. I still have semi-regular mild side effects 5-6 months later. However, most guys do not go slow and therefore have the potential to induce worse long term effect, imo, before they stop. 5 grams is an insane amount to recommend of almost anything, whether it is potentially neurotoxic or not. This is. I was taking a small fraction of that amount. My advice is not to mess with mucuna, even if you're only noticing benefit at the present time.

Yeah 5 grams sound like a lot but there is a lack of hard data to suggest Mucuna should be avoid entirely. Preparation, potency, and duration of use
are very important. It has been used for centuries much like Kava Kava for example. That was banned out right in some countries over unsubstantiated hepatotoxicity fears.

Not trying to down play anyone's negative experiences with Mucuna or any other substance. Caution is always warranted.

Edited by Metagene, 18 April 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Ames]

If Kanna does exhibit SSRI-like effects, you can probably expect some form of SSRI like withdrawal albeit to a lesser extent depending on the dosages and duration of use. I 'know' I read that somewhere and I'll look for my source after work ; )

SSRI withdrawal is a more specific way to put it, and what I was getting at when I said 'addiction'. The users seemed to go through a phase of ramping up use to chase the high, or anti-depressant effect, and then went through a period of SSRI withdrawal / dependency. Of course, the perceived difficulty of withdrawal pangs are unique to the user. For instance, an opiate user may not see SSRI withdrawal as a significant challenge and the people who were complaining about Kanna withdrawal as being oversensitive whiners. However, the people experiencing Kanna withdrawal seemed not to be having a good time with it. It can be noted that, across the board, they had also seemed to be using it multiple times per day for semi-recreational purposes before any dependency occurred.

Edited by golgi1, 18 April 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[Ames]

Yeah 5 grams sound like a lot but there is a lack of hard data to suggest Mucuna should be avoid entirely.

I feel like Kenny Killjoy today, but that isn't my experience with it. I was being vague before, but I'm talking about scary muscle symptoms that haven't yet entirely abated and exactly what one would expect to see from L-Dopa toxicity. You'd be shocked to know how little I was using, especially in relation to 5 gram doses.

I especially disagree with the following rationalization:

Preparation, potency, and duration of use
are very important.

As a generalization, not true. There are thousands of substances that aren't recommended at any potency, duration of use, or preparation.

It has been used for centuries much like Kava Kava for example. That was banned out right in some countries over unsubstantiated hepatotoxicity fears.

This is the type of absolute BS (no offense) to which I was before referring, and is an example of what sometimes causes otherwise cautious individuals to discard legitimate and warranted warnings. You can't make an argument for a substance by associating it with another. That's a rhetorical fallacy. An illogical semantic trick. Mucuna is not Kava is not Mucuna. Also, claimed length of use, I assume tribal, is completely irrelevant not to mention lacking all context. There are studies that link tribal use of all sorts of substances to a myriad of disordered/disease states.

However, do as you will. My motivation for posting was out of a felt responsibility to the board to relate my experience with it, not to shout anyone down.

Edited by golgi1, 18 April 2013 - 03:56 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

Yeah 5 grams sound like a lot but there is a lack of hard data to suggest Mucuna should be avoid entirely.

L-Dopa is well documented to cause permanent motor problems with continued use. There are 122 hits for l-dopa dyskinesia (in quotes) in pubmed! : (http://www.ncbi.nlm....ced dyskinesia")

Do not take Mucuna or anything else containing L-Dopa if you do not have professionally diagnosed Parkinson's disease. It was used traditionally in Aryuveda to treat Parkinsons disease and was NOT used by otherwise healthy people.

If Kanna does exhibit SSRI-like effects, you can probably expect some form of SSRI like withdrawal albeit to a lesser extent depending on the dosages and duration of use. I 'know' I read that somewhere and I'll look for my source after work ; )

In my experience, Kanna at 100mg a dose may have some negligible addiction potential. Certainly less than caffeine. Zembrin doesn't have any that I can perceive.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 19 April 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[KoolK3n]

Yeah 5 grams sound like a lot but there is a lack of hard data to suggest Mucuna should be avoid entirely.

L-Dopa is well documented to cause permanent motor problems with continued use. There are 122 hits for l-dopa dyskinesia (in quotes) in pubmed! : (http://www.ncbi.nlm....ced dyskinesia")

Do not take Mucuna or anything else containing L-Dopa if you do not have professionally diagnosed Parkinson's disease. It was used traditionally in Aryuveda to treat Parkinsons disease and was NOT used by otherwise healthy people.

Review my thread plzzzzzzzzzzzz:
http://www.longecity...tions-toxicity/