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Chemically induced LTP?

ciltep pde4 forskolin ltp

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#121 abelard lindsay

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

Speaking of stacking. This stack goes great with the 'racetams. I actually stopped taking 'racetams on a regular basis with this stack. Now I only really take them when I am taking an MITX mid-term along with 2-3 grams of ALCAR, which tends to cause ocassional flashes of creative insight.

Why are 'racetams synergistic though?

Let's go back to the original mechanism of action we are trying to optimize here: Long Term Potentiation!

http://en.wikipedia....rm_potentiation

Induction

Late LTP is induced by changes in gene expression and protein synthesis brought about by the persistent activation of protein kinases activated during E-LTP, such as MAPK.[25][24][30] In fact, MAPK—specifically the extracellular signal-regulated kinase (ERK) subfamily of MAPKs—may be the molecular link between E-LTP and L-LTP, since many signaling cascades involved in E-LTP, including CaMKII and PKC, can converge on ERK.[30] Recent research has shown that the induction of L-LTP can depend on coincident molecular events, namely PKA activation and calcium influx, that converge on CRTC1 (TORC1), a potent transcriptional coactivator for cAMP response element binding protein (CREB).[31] This requirement for a molecular coincidence accounts perfectly for the associative nature of LTP, and, presumably, for that of learning.


Delving into the role of CREB in LTP and cognition we find:

http://en.wikipedia....lular_Cognition

There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that CREB has a role in the molecular steps that stabilize memory in the brain. This evidence includes CREB manipulations in several learning paradigms across multiple brain regions and multiple species. For example, there is compelling evidence showing that CREB has a role in emotional memory. This form of memory can be studied in rodents with experimental paradigms that depend on fear conditioning, an amygdala-dependent behavior. The evidence that supports a role for CREB in emotional memory falls into three experimental categories: negative manipulations (where the levels of CREB were lowered), positive manipulations (where the levels of CREB were increased), and non-interventions (where the endogenous levels of CREB were tracked before and after learning).


So CREB and thus late LTP is what CILTEP works on. By activating CREB via increased cAMP, this link in the chain works better for encoding long term memory (>3 hours).

Dopamine also enhanced the cAMP/CREB pathway

Similarly, activation ofdopamine receptors may enhance LTP through the cAMP/PKA signaling pathway.[44][45]



Now what are the 'racetams good for here?

They are good for Early LTP ( Short Term Memory). Notice that CREB does not enhance short-term memory, only long-term!

Electrophysiological studies in Aplysia indicated that decreasing CREB function blocks long, but not short-term changes in synaptic function [1]. Changes in synaptic function (i.e., synaptic plasticity) are required for learning and memory [2] As evidence of this, a line of mice with a targeted disruption of the α and δ isoforms of CREB showed intact short-term memory, but disrupted long-term memory in several behavioral tasks, including contextual conditioning and spatial learning in the water maze, two hippocampal-dependent learning tasks.



So what's going on in short-term memory land?

Posted Image

Well for NMDA receptor activation there's Magnesium Threonate to sensitize and upregulate NMDA receptors (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20152124).

Then for AMPA Receptors, there's the 'racetams, which positively modulate AMPA receptor activation (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20163115). Your brain is like a big chemical factory with multiple workstations that process different chemicals into other chemicals and use all sorts of very messy complicated signal transduction mechanism to produce memories. What we are doing here is optimizing or increasing the capacity of the workstations. All this is done delicately without over stressing the machinery.


The ultimate nootropic is not a single pill. That's because the brain does not have a single chemical mechanism for intelligence. It's only in understanding each piece of machinery in the brain that one can perform synergistic optimization.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 May 2012 - 07:29 PM.

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#122 gizmobrain

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

Why would anybody mention it before it was discovered? :) BTW, I hope you can get your brain to work right with just CILTEP and milder dopamine pre-cursors. Adderall is not very healthy to take long term.


It's definitely not healthy. It took a couple months for my memory to return to normal after discontinuing Adderall the last time I took it. I didn't even want to start taking it again, but I was in a bit of a bind. Being broke and not having any motivation doesn't work out too well when you are getting married soon.

For the past couple days, I've just been drinking an energy drink (which used to do nothing for me mentally), and taking the CILTEP stack . It's not as motivating as even the low dose of Adderall + CILTEP, but it's enough to get some stuff done and still have energy. I think I'll grab some Catuaba and see how that works.

I've taken Schizandra a few times, but it was too stimulating in a way that I subjectively found annoying. I wouldn't take it again. It seems to somehow modulate dopamine metabolism. Most worrying in the above study is the DOPAC build up. DOPAC is a normal metabolite of dopamine, but if too much of it is around, it can become neurotoxic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopac

DOPAC can be oxidized by hydrogen peroxide, leading to the formation of toxic metabolites which destroy dopamine storage vesicles in the substantia nigra. This may contribute to the failure of levodopa treatment of Parkinson's disease. A MAO-Binhibitorsuch as selegiline or rasagiline can prevent this from happening.


Hmm, I have a whole bottle of Selegiline that I've been debating on whether to continue taking or not, mostly for its neuroprotectiveness. If it works well, I wonder if Selegiline + Schizandrol A + CILTEP would be healthy for long term use. Just about anything is healthier than long term amphetamine use, but I'd like to not be a vegetable by the time I'm 60.

L-Tyrosine alone isn't doing the trick, though I think I might finish the bottle and then order some L-Phenylalanine. I don't expect it to work stronger, but at least I will know that I am providing my body with the building blocks it needs.

Speaking of stacking. This stack goes great with the 'racetams.


To be honest, I haven't really ever "felt" much from the -racetams (pi, oxi, ani, and prami), but this stack is causing me to re-evaluate all my previous trialed supplements. I've got some aniracetam on the way.

I tried some prami- the other day. I wasn't doing anything too mentally intensive though, so I wasn't able to evaluate the nature of its effects other than how it felt, and I definitely felt "something".


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#123 medievil

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 09:34 PM

"Resveratrol ameliorates aging-related metabolic phenotypes by inhibiting cAMP phosphodiesterases.
Park SJ, Ahmad F, Philp A, Baar K, Williams T, Luo H, Ke H, Rehmann H, Taussig R, Brown AL, Kim MK, Beaven MA, Burgin AB, Manganiello V, Chung JH.
Source
Laboratory of Obesity and Aging Research, Genetics and Developmental Biology Center, National Heart Lung and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA.
Abstract
Resveratrol, a polyphenol in red wine, has been reported as a calorie restriction mimetic with potential antiaging and antidiabetogenic properties. It is widely consumed as a nutritional supplement, but its mechanism of action remains a mystery. Here, we report that the metabolic effects of resveratrol result from competitive inhibition of cAMP-degrading phosphodiesterases, leading to elevated cAMP levels. The resulting activation of Epac1, a cAMP effector protein, increases intracellular Ca(2+) levels and activates the CamKKβ-AMPK pathway via phospholipase C and the ryanodine receptor Ca(2+)-release channel. As a consequence, resveratrol increases NAD(+) and the activity of Sirt1. Inhibiting PDE4 with rolipram reproduces all of the metabolic benefits of resveratrol, including prevention of diet-induced obesity and an increase in mitochondrial function, physical stamina, and glucose tolerance in mice. Therefore, administration of PDE4 inhibitors may also protect against and ameliorate the symptoms of metabolic diseases associated with aging.
Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Comment in"
"Resveratrol and Health: The Starting Point.
Biasutto L, Mattarei A, Zoratti M.
Source
CNR Institute of Neuroscience and Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Padova, Viale Giuseppe Colombo 3, 35131 Padova (Italy).
Abstract
Cascade of youth? Resveratrol, the celebrated phytoalexin of red wine, was known to activate AMPK indirectly, but how this happened was unclear. In a paper recently published in Cell, S.-J. Park, J. H. Chung and co-workers identify the signalling cascade, which begins with the inhibition of phosphodiesterases, in particular PDE4. But questions remain, even while new perspectives open up.
Copyright © 2012 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim."

Looks like its another PDE inhibitor; im thinking of stacking it with nefiracetam instead of forskolin and a stim to see how that works togheter added to my normal stack of ginseng (wich potentiates LTP) aniracetam witch potentiates AMPA the most of the racetams and prami wich acts on no. Eventually methylene blue wich also potentiates LTP would be excellent in a stack like this.

#124 abelard lindsay

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 01:48 AM

Hmm, I have a whole bottle of Selegiline that I've been debating on whether to continue taking or not, mostly for its neuroprotectiveness. If it works well, I wonder if Selegiline + Schizandrol A + CILTEP would be healthy for long term use. Just about anything is healthier than long term amphetamine use, but I'd like to not be a vegetable by the time I'm 60.


I've never taken Selegline but have heard a lot of good things about it. It was one of the original anti-aging pills because it takes care of preventing degradation of the sustantia nigra, which is the dopamine producing part of the brain, by blocking dopamine metabolism to DOPAC and instead letting it get metabolized by the more benign COMT pathway.

"Resveratrol ameliorates aging-related metabolic phenotypes by inhibiting cAMP phosphodiesterases.
...
Therefore, administration of PDE4 inhibitors may also protect against and ameliorate the symptoms of metabolic diseases associated with aging.


Well they didn't indicate the ic50 of resveratrol so who knows if it's a better PDE4 inhibitor than Quercetin... I could pay $30 to read the whole thing but who knows if they even included that tasty little detail.

One thing that's nice about this study is that inhibiting PDE4 and increasing cAMP may actually contribute to life extension in addition to being a way to increase long term memory and learning.

Looks like its another PDE inhibitor; im thinking of stacking it with nefiracetam instead of forskolin and a stim to see how that works togheter added to my normal stack of ginseng (wich potentiates LTP) aniracetam witch potentiates AMPA the most of the racetams and prami wich acts on no. Eventually methylene blue wich also potentiates LTP would be excellent in a stack like this.


I really doubt this stack will work without the Forskolin. Resveratrol is fine but you'll probably get stronger results from Quercetin and Artichoke.

Also Methylene Blue might interfere with PDE inhibition, at least PDE5 inhibition which is what Sildenafil (Viagra) does.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16845211

Sildenafil also significantly improved the cognitive performance in young rats in both the paradigms. Furthermore, L-NAME, a non-selective NOS inhibitor and methylene blue, a guanylate cyclase inhibitor blocked the effect of sildenafil. The results thus suggest that cognitive impairment might be due to the modulatory effect of nNOS or PDE5 enzyme on cGMP levels.


Edited by abelard lindsay, 21 May 2012 - 01:53 AM.


#125 medievil

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:33 PM

Methylene blue depletes cGMP and nos but only at very high doses; not the known nootropic doses.

#126 abelard lindsay

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:48 AM

More interesting PDE/LTP connection stuff...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22245562


In order to gain more insight into the potential impact of extracellularly acting AChEs and intracellularly acting PDE9A inhibitors on synaptic plasticity, we analyzed the effects of the AChE inhibitor donepezil and the PDE9A inhibitor BAY 73-6691 on long-term potentiation (LTP) in rat hippocampal slices, a widely accepted cellular experimental model of memory formation. Generally, LTP can be differentiated into an early and a late form, being protein-synthesis independent and protein-synthesis dependent, respectively. Donepezil was found to increase early LTP, but did not affect late LTP. In contrast, BAY 73-6691 demonstrated enhancing effects on both early and late LTP and even transformed early into late LTP. Furthermore, it was shown that this transformation into late LTP was dependent on the NO-cGMP-PKG pathway. In conclusion, this study demonstrates that BAY 73-6691 exhibits a stronger effect in enhancing and prolonging LTP than donepezil suggesting that PDE9 inhibition might be more efficacious in enhancing learning and memory.
Copyright © 2012 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.



PDE9A inhibition looks mighty tasty. The herbal inhibitors are few and far between..

The only likely one is Morus Alba, A.K.A Mulberry..
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22483586

It inhibited PDE4D2, PDE4B2, PDE5A1, and PDE9A2 with the IC(50) values of 2.9, 4.5, >40, and >100μM

The ic 50 value of 100uM for PDE9A2 is really slight, so it's unlikely to have much of an effect.

PDE9A is in all kinds of weird places though like the Urinary tract (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21736695), so it's probably a bad idea to mega dose Mulberry. Nevertheless, it has been used medicinally for thousands of years and the PDE4D2 and PDE4B2 inhibition are quite strong. Here's some data on the more conventional uses of Mulberry (http://www.life-enha...late.asp?ID=992).

I tried some mulberry for kicks a couple of days ago after I read this study. Didn't do too much. Oh well, another one for the oddball supplement box.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 May 2012 - 06:14 AM.

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#127 medievil

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:23 AM

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dipyridamole

http://en.wikipedia....rase_inhibitors

The first one is non selective and should be interesting too; its not on wiki's list.
Also it appears that silymarin is a non selective PDE inhibitor.

#128 medievil

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:41 AM

Selective phosphodiesterase inhibitors: a promising target for cognition enhancement.
Reneerkens OA, Rutten K, Steinbusch HW, Blokland A, Prickaerts J.
Source
Department of Neuroscience, Faculty of Health, Medicine and Life Sciences, School for Mental Health and Neuroscience, Maastricht University, P.O. Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. o.reneerkens@np.unimaas.nl
Abstract
RATIONALE:
One of the major complaints most people face during aging is an impairment in cognitive functioning. This has a negative impact on the quality of daily life and is even more prominent in patients suffering from neurodegenerative and psychiatric disorders including Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia, and depression. So far, the majority of cognition enhancers are generally targeting one particular neurotransmitter system. However, recently phosphodiesterases (PDEs) have gained increased attention as a potential new target for cognition enhancement. Inhibition of PDEs increases the intracellular availability of the second messengers cGMP and/or cAMP.
OBJECTIVE:
The aim of this review was to provide an overview of the effects of phosphodiesterase inhibitors (PDE-Is) on cognition, the possible underlying mechanisms, and the relationship to current theories about memory formation.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:
Studies of the effects of inhibitors of different PDE families (2, 4, 5, 9, and 10) on cognition were reviewed. In addition, studies related to PDE-Is and blood flow, emotional arousal, and long-term potentiation (LTP) were described.
RESULTS:
PDE-Is have a positive effect on several aspects of cognition, including information processing, attention, memory, and executive functioning. At present, these data are likely to be explained in terms of an LTP-related mechanism of action.
CONCLUSION:
PDE-Is are a promising target for cognition enhancement; the most suitable candidates appear to be PDE2-Is or PDE9-Is. The future for PDE-Is as cognition enhancers lies in the development of isoform-specific PDE-Is that have limited aversive side effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18709359

#129 health_nutty

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:00 PM

I've found that Aniracetam does not mix well with this stack. The side effects that I get with too much Aniracetam are greatly amplified with this stack, both in magnitude and duration. I took a normal dose (750mg) of Ani yesterday in the morning and I got brain fog and unmotivation the entire day! Even smaller amounts have this effect.

Previous to this stack I could take these doses as long as I had plenty of ACh. With this stack no amount of ACh precursors help.

Has anyone else tried Ani with this stack?

#130 gizmobrain

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:26 PM

I ran out of Adderall, so I got a little trigger happy on buying some stuff. I bought some Catuaba, Pycnogenol, Aniracetam, and some more MagT. My wallet is hurting.

Hopefully it gets here soon, and I'll let you know if I have the same problem with the Aniracetam.

#131 middpanther88

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:15 PM

I ran out of Adderall, so I got a little trigger happy on buying some stuff. I bought some Catuaba, Pycnogenol, Aniracetam, and some more MagT. My wallet is hurting.

Hopefully it gets here soon, and I'll let you know if I have the same problem with the Aniracetam.


Please let me know the effects of the stack+Pycnogenol! Thanks! Happy noopin'

#132 gizmobrain

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 12:47 AM

I will, though it might take a week or so, since it hasn't shipped out yet. Abelard lindsay had mentioned taking it in the past, so I don't know if he's got any left to see how well it stacks.


On a different note, the Forskolin I have is 100mg Forskohlii, standardized to 20% Forskolin. It kind of tears through my digestive system when taken on an empty stomach. Since I've read that the Forskolin isn't believed to be the culprit, but the rest of the Forskohlii herb, I did some investigating. I found this:

J Chromatogr A. 2006 Jan 6;1101(1-2):313-4. Epub 2005 Dec 1.
Simple and rapid method for the isolation of forskolin from Coleus forskohlii by charcoal column chromatography.

Saleem AM, Dhasan PB, Rafiullah MR.

Source

Department of Pharmacognosy, C.L. Baid Metha College of Pharmacy, Thoraippakkam, Chennai 600096, India. saleemskma@rediffmail.com

Abstract

A simple, safe, rapid and economical method was developed for the isolation of high-purity forskolin from Coleus forskohlii roots using activated charcoal as an adsorbent in a column. The elution was carried out under reduced pressure to make the process rapid. Activated charcoal acted as a reversed phase adsorbent and allowed elution of forskolin without much impurities. The residue, obtained from the eluate was purified and crystallized using different solvent mixtures to obtain pure forskolin. The forskolin isolated was analyzed and characterized by UV, IR, RP-HPLC, electrospray ionization MS, 1H NMR and 13C NMR. The yield was 0.097% w/w (RSD 5.6%). The purity was 96.9% w/w (RSD 0.3%) as determined by RP-HPLC. The present method enables researchers to produce high-purity forskolin in their labs by using common chemicals. PMID: 16325832 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


A simple Google search brought up a few full length articles that described how to extract forskolin very cheaply and quickly using ethanol and activated charcoal. If I read it right, you can very easily obtain 98% forskolin in your basement.

Edited by zrbarnes, 23 May 2012 - 12:49 AM.


#133 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:11 AM

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dipyridamole

http://en.wikipedia....rase_inhibitors

The first one is non selective and should be interesting too; its not on wiki's list.
Also it appears that silymarin is a non selective PDE inhibitor.

Selective phosphodiesterase inhibitors: a promising target for cognition enhancement.
....

PDE-Is are a promising target for cognition enhancement; the most suitable candidates appear to be PDE2-Is or PDE9-Is. The future for PDE-Is as cognition enhancers lies in the development of isoform-specific PDE-Is that have limited aversive side effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18709359


PDE is present all over the body doing all kinds of stuff. That's why broadly non-selective PDE inhibition is likely to cause side effects. Targeting the isoforms that are intermingled with CREB and LTP mechanisms is what I'm trying to do with this stack. That seems to be PDE4 largely.


I've found that Aniracetam does not mix well with this stack. The side effects that I get with too much Aniracetam are greatly amplified with this stack, both in magnitude and duration. I took a normal dose (750mg) of Ani yesterday in the morning and I got brain fog and unmotivation the entire day! Even smaller amounts have this effect.

Previous to this stack I could take these doses as long as I had plenty of ACh. With this stack no amount of ACh precursors help.

Has anyone else tried Ani with this stack?


I've stacked it with piracetam with good effects. I never liked aniracetam or for that matter oxiracetam. Aniracetam always made me spaced out and a little queasy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9555053

The modulatory influence of aniracetam, a drug which reversibly modifies the kinetic properties of AMPA-type glutamate receptors, on synaptic responses is reported to be detectably changed by the induction of long-term potentiation (LTP).
...
The following results were obtained. LTP reduced the effect of aniracetam on the amplitude but increased its effect on the decay time constant of field EPSPs recorded under conditions in which local spiking and inhibitory responses were blocked. The LTP-induced change in the effect of aniracetam was extremely stable in that it was still evident 75 min after induction of potentiation. Finally, the waveform distortions introduced by LTP and aniracetam could be corrected by uniform stretching of the responses, suggesting that the changes introduced by each of the manipulations are unitary in nature. These distortions and the interactions between them could be reproduced in the AMPA receptor model by representing LTP as an acceleration of channel gating kinetics.


So the gist being that LTP induction somehow modifies the effect that Aniracetam has on brainwaves. There is some sort of interaction between enhanced LTP and aniracetam. That's my best guess as to why it doesn't go well with this stack.

Please let me know the effects of the stack+Pycnogenol! Thanks! Happy noopin'


I take this stack with pycnogenol regularly. I wouldn't say it's synergistic but they don't conflict with each other.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2012 - 04:38 AM.


#134 gamesguru

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:15 AM

I don't believe it's certain that highly selective PDE4 inhibitors are free of unwanted side effects.

Further, I find it somewhat of a vague claim to say that "there could be some weird stuff going on between...LTP and aniracetam".

And how confident are you that pycnogenol/grape seed/related compounds don't interefere with or contribute to LTP? I believe these compounds have a profound influence on certain factors in the blood, and also upon the nerves. To wholly disregard their influence is to be amateurish.

#135 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:27 AM

I don't believe it's certain that highly selective PDE4 inhibitors are free of unwanted side effects.

Further, I find it somewhat of a vague claim to say that "there could be some weird stuff going on between...LTP and aniracetam".

And how confident are you that pycnogenol/grape seed/related compounds don't interefere with or contribute to LTP? I believe these compounds have a profound influence on certain factors in the blood, and also upon the nerves. To wholly disregard their influence is to be amateurish.


If you are going to make broad claims you should post links to studies. There is no way for me to learn anything from you if you don't at least provide some references to either personal experiences or the research literature. I post tons of studies and inter-relate them and you post a bunch of vague assertions and call me the amateur? A search of pubmed for LTP and pycnogenol brings up nothing. What am I supposed to do to get a scientific answer to this? Perhaps I should go to my multi-million dollar lab (no I do not actually have one, I'm being fanciful) and do the multi-month study and reply back to you that I can prove a negative, that pycnogenol has nothing to do with LTP?

As far as negative side effects from PDE4 inhibition: Rolipram does have the negative side effect of causing nausea and vomiting because there are certain PDE4 targets, which are suspected to be in the gastrointestinal tract, that trigger this (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8608790). So far I haven't felt any nausea. Of course Rolipram has an ic50 in the nanograms (10e-9) and the herbal PDE4's are thousands of times less potent and inhibit far fewer PDE4 isoforms that Rolipram.

I'm not saying that there is nothing bad that can happen playing around with these receptor sites. I am only posting my personal experiences here and links to research. I am all for you posting information negative or positive about this stack but please link to medical research or report your personal experiences to support your claims.

I posted earlier that I thought taking Nefiracetam was a bad idea because of both studies showing side effects and negative personal experiences of other forum members. I did that because of research and reports of personal experiences not simply out of fear of the unknown. If you have either one, please provide me with them and I will give them a fair hearing.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2012 - 05:22 AM.

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#136 gizmobrain

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:40 AM

Very interesting study about Aniracetam, though I'm not sure that what to take from it.

LTP reduced the effect of aniracetam on the amplitude but increased its effect on the decay time constant of field EPSPs recorded under conditions in which local spiking and inhibitory responses were blocked.


I don't even know if this is a good or bad thing.

I'm kind of sad I went with Aniracetam now. Maybe I should have gotten more Pram.

#137 Junk Master

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 04:57 AM

Don't give up on the Ani. Very useful as an anxiolytic in small, divided doses. Also very useful in stimulating lucid dreams. And it is an ampakine. Personally, I think most people use it incorrectly. If you're looking for that Piracetam/Pram sharpness, you need to wait two hours (roughly) AFTER ingesting a large dose.

#138 gamesguru

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:03 AM

Don't give up on the Ani. Very useful as an anxiolytic in small, divided doses. Also very useful in stimulating lucid dreams. And it is an ampakine. Personally, I think most people use it incorrectly. If you're looking for that Piracetam/Pram sharpness, you need to wait two hours (roughly) AFTER ingesting a large dose.

What is a small dose of ani? a large dose of piracetam/prami?

#139 abelard lindsay

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:07 AM

Very interesting study about Aniracetam, though I'm not sure that what to take from it.

LTP reduced the effect of aniracetam on the amplitude but increased its effect on the decay time constant of field EPSPs recorded under conditions in which local spiking and inhibitory responses were blocked.

I don't even know if this is a good or bad thing.
I'm kind of sad I went with Aniracetam now. Maybe I should have gotten more Pram.


Basically LTP turns Aniracetam into a GABA like inhibitor by lowering the amplitude of brain waves. I'd speculate that being similar in effect to GABA, this would be anxiolytic but not cognition enhancing or motivating.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2012 - 06:20 AM.


#140 gizmobrain

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:47 PM

Basically LTP turns Aniracetam into a GABA like inhibitor by lowering the amplitude of brain waves. I'd speculate that being similar in effect to GABA, this would be anxiolytic but not cognition enhancing or motivating.

I see. Yes, this seems like it would be great for inducing dreams then. Or if you were overstimulated, it might help you come down to an appropriate level with a small dose.

A few studies I found interesting while searching for synergies. Anyone have any Galantamine, Sulbutiamine or Idebenone lying around?

Galantamine enhancement of long-term potentiation is mediated by calcium/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II and protein kinase C activation.

Moriguchi S, Shioda N, Han F, Yeh JZ, Narahashi T, Fukunaga K.

Source

Department of Pharmacology, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Tohoku University, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan. shigeki@mail.pharm.tohoku.ac.jp

Abstract

Galantamine, a novel Alzheimer's drug, is known to inhibit acetylcholinesterase activity and potentiate nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAChR) in the brain. We previously reported that galantamine potentiates the NMDA-induced currents in primary cultured rat cortical neurons. We now studied the effects of galantamine on long-term potentiation (LTP) in the rat hippocampal CA1 regions. The field excitatory postsynaptic potentials (fEPSPs) were induced by stimulation of the Schaffer collateral/commissural pathways in the hippocampal CA1 region. Treatment with 0.01-10 microM galantamine did not affect the slope of fEPSPs in the CA1 region. Galantamine treatment increased calcium/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II (CaMKII) and protein kinase Calpha (PKCalpha) activities with a bell-shaped dose-response curve peaked at 1 microM, thereby increasing the phosphorylation of AMPA receptor, myristoylated alanine-rich protein kinase C, and NMDA receptor as downstream substrates of CaMKII and/or PKCalpha. By contrast, galatamine treatment did not affect protein kinase A activity. Consistent with the bell-shaped CaMKII and PKCalpha activation, galantamine treatment enhanced LTP in the hippocampal CA1 regions with the same bell-shaped dose-response curve. Furthermore, LTP potentiation induced by galantamine treatment at 1 microM was closely associated with both CaMKII and PKC activation with concomitant increase in phosphorylation of their downstream substrates except for synapsin I. In addition, the enhancement of LTP by galantamine was accompanied with alpha7-type nAChR activation. These results suggest that galantamine potentiates NMDA receptor-dependent LTP through alpha7-type nAChR activation, by which the postsynaptic CaMKII and PKC are activated.
© 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc. PMID: 19253410


Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1985 Aug;23(2):195-8.
Chronic administration of sulbutiamine improves long term memory formation in mice: possible cholinergic mediation.

Micheau J, Durkin TP, Destrade C, Rolland Y, Jaffard R.

Abstract

Thiamine deficiency in both man and animals is known to produce memory dysfunction and cognitive disorders which have been related to an impairment of cholinergic activity. The present experiment was aimed at testing whether, inversely, chronic administration of large doses of sulbutiamine would have a facilitative effect on memory and would induce changes in central cholinergic activity. Accordingly mice received 300 mg/kg of sulbutiamine daily for 10 days. They were then submitted to an appetitive operant level press conditioning test. When compared to control subjects, sulbutiamine treated mice learned the task at the same rate in a single session but showed greatly improved performance when tested 24 hr after partial acquisition of the same task. Parallel neurochemical investigations showed that the treatment induced a slight (+ 10%) but significant increase in hippocampal sodium-dependent high affinity choline uptake. The present findings and previous results suggest that sulbutiamine improves memory formation and that this behavioral effect could be mediated by an increase in hippocampal cholinergic activity. PMID: 4059305


Nihon Yakurigaku Zasshi. 1993 Sep;102(3):225-34.
[Pharmacology of long-term potentiation].

[Article in Japanese]
Satoh M, Watanabe S.

Source

Department of Molecular Pharmacology, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kyoto University, Japan.

Abstract

The physiological characteristics and significance of long-term potentiation in the hippocampus were summarized. In particular, it was pointed out that different mechanisms are involved in the production of hippocampal LTP between the mossy fiber-CA3 system and other systems such as Schaffer collateral-CA1, fimbrial fiber-CA3 and commissural/associational fiber-CA3. Furthermore, the epsilon-subspecies of protein kinase C (PKC) was demonstrated to be exclusively located at the presynaptic terminals in the hippocampus and activated by arachidonic acid, and this enzyme is suggested to be involved in the production of LTP through a phosphorylation of GAP-43, while the gamma-subspecies of PKC may be postsynaptically involved in LTP through an activation of NMDAR1. The production of LTP in the hippocampus is facilitated by many factors such as epidermal growth factor, fibroblast growth factors, somatostatin, M1 receptor agonists and many drugs like anirasetam, bifemelane, idebenone, indeloxazine and vinpocetine, but inhibited by M2-receptor agonists, scopolamine and midazolam. In addition to electrophysiological methods, LTP-like phenomena in 2-deoxyglucose uptake and leucine incorporation can be detected. These LTP phenomena in several animal models will be useful as indices for evaluating facilitatory actions of various compounds on learning/memory functions. PMID:8104851




Don't smoke!

Brain Res. 2006 Mar 17;1078(1):80-91.
Nicotine reverses consolidated long-term potentiation in the hippocampal CA1 region.

Guan X, Nakauchi S, Sumikawa K.

Source

Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, University of California, Irvine, CA 92697-4550, USA.

Abstract

Long-term potentiation (LTP) has a memory-like consolidation period during which it becomes progressively stabilized. However, it is unknown how the consolidation is achieved. The present study demonstrates that nicotine reverses stabilized LTP in the hippocampal CA1 region, providing the first evidence that consolidated LTP can be reversed. The nicotine-induced reversal appeared to work by reversing cellular processes involved in stabilizing LTP, as LTP was readily induced again after reversal. The effect of nicotine was mediated, in large part, via desensitization of alpha7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs), as an alpha7 nAChR-selective antagonist mimicked the nicotine effect. A non-selective N-methyl-d-aspartate receptor (NMDAR) antagonist completely abolished the nicotine-induced reversal, whereas an NR2B-containing NMDAR-selective antagonist had no effect. Furthermore, both the protein phosphatase 1/protein phosphatase 2A inhibitor okadaic acid and the protein phosphatase 2B (calcineurin) inhibitor cyclosporin A blocked the nicotine-induced reversal. Taken together, our results suggest that the reversal of stabilized LTP depends on the activation of NR2A-containing NMDARs and dephosphorylation. Thus, the consolidation of LTP appears to be the interruption of signaling leading to NR2A-containing NMDAR-dependent activation of protein phosphatases, which can be circumvented by nicotine-induced signaling. LTP induced in chronic nicotine-treated hippocampi contained a component that is immune to reversal, and thus acute nicotine was no longer effective to reverse consolidated LTP. These results demonstrate the differential effects of acute and chronic nicotine exposure on the cellular processes that are potentially involved in learning and memory.


Edited by zrbarnes, 23 May 2012 - 03:10 PM.


#141 owtsgmi

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:26 PM

I am on day 3 on the CILTEP - 1g Quercetin/9mg forskolin. I think I took it too late the first day (~8pm) because I didn't sleep AT ALL through the night. It was wierd because I didn't feel tired or bad - i just could not sleep. I haven't had insomnia or sleeping issues for at least 3 years so that was wierd. I woke up about 5am (which is way early for me) and went on with my day 2. Around 8am, I took another 1g Quercetin/9mg forskolin and had a noticeably more awesome day. Very focused as usual at work, but with a deeper sense of well-being, warmer social interactions, more laughing, more engaging (and enjoyable) face-to-face conversations, better planning. It definitely worked some magic. That night (last night) I still had some tossing and turning, but it was way better. I got about 7 hours. Here I am at morning day 3 and am just about to take some with my normal piracetam/uridine routine.

Just to note, L-theanine 100mg, caffeine (half a cup coffee) and uridine 200mg are my dopamine supps. I take these in the am. I have to say the CILTEP could be that last puzzle piece for me. Now, I just need to weed out any redundant stuff in the stack.

Edited by owtsgmi, 23 May 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#142 owtsgmi

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:31 PM

I've stacked it with piracetam with good effects. I never liked aniracetam or for that matter oxiracetam. Aniracetam always made me spaced out and a little queasy.



Aniracetam always spaced me out too. I could never tolerate that. In fact, all the racetams that I tried did that except piracetam. I finally settled happily on 800mg piracetam twice a day. It seems to synergize well with the CILTEP so far too.

#143 gizmobrain

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:33 PM

I would say that yes, 8pm is a little late in the day :|o . I've never mentioned insomnia because I usually take melatonin at night.

#144 medievil

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:16 PM

Recommedations for cheap forskolin?
Ill get some quercetin from holland and barret; want to try this stack soon:)

#145 gamesguru

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:24 PM

Smartpowders offers cheap forskolin.

#146 medievil

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

Im wondering wheter this stack would also reduce the dose needed of amphetamine for social anxiety relief; i doubt it tough as the sa benefits come from D2/D3 wich could cause a problem making my dose overkill for motivation and other benefits but ill see.

#147 gamesguru

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:33 PM

For what my limited opinion is worth, I think it'll only help INDIRECTLY with things like ADHD, SAD, depression, by making "energy" less of a "limiting factor". As you suggest, increasing cAMP (and the other secondary mechanisms of the CILTEP stack) is not to be expected to provide direct relief to these symptoms. CILTEP stacks simply don't seem to affect receptors in the same way as other stacks (including amphetamine, ritalin, buproprion, tyrosine, etc) seem to.

That said, I believe increasing energy levels is crucial to people with these kinds of disorders. I would start with CILTEP but seek less mild options to manage my ADHD/SAD. I can suggest some herbs if you wish, but I will say I despise adderall.



My advice is to start out at a much smaller dose than you currently take, or you might find yourself waaay overstimulated.

I went from 60mg of Adderall IR a day to 5mg on this stack. I took a year break away from Adderall, and by the time I was on 60mg I had already developed a large tolerance. So maybe ~20mg -> 5mg might be more accurate.

In other words, cut your normal amp dose by 4 at least until you know what effects this stack has on you.


Well that experience antagonizes my old beliefs. Anyone want to chime in with why CILTEP stacks might directly reduce adderall tolerance? Might it be due to the magnesium you're taking? I suspect the magnesium acts similarly to mematine in those with ideal genes, that is it seems to reduce amphetamine tolerance through NDMAR antagonism.

Edited by dasheenster, 23 May 2012 - 08:38 PM.


#148 gizmobrain

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 08:35 PM

Im wondering wheter this stack would also reduce the dose needed of amphetamine for social anxiety relief; i doubt it tough as the sa benefits come from D2/D3 wich could cause a problem making my dose overkill for motivation and other benefits but ill see.

My advice is to start out at a much smaller dose than you currently take, or you might find yourself waaay overstimulated.

I went from 60mg of Adderall IR a day to 5mg on this stack. I took a year break away from Adderall, and by the time I was on 60mg I had already developed a large tolerance. So maybe ~20mg -> 5mg might be more accurate.

In other words, cut your normal amp dose by 4 at least until you know what effects this stack has on you.

Edited by zrbarnes, 23 May 2012 - 08:35 PM.


#149 gamesguru

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:39 PM

Interesting that Forskolin activates AChE promoter and up-regulates its expression:
http://www.springerl...2321067642448v/

I wonder how relevant this is at the doses we are taking? Any thoughts?

In spite of all the fine talk about huperzine and galatamine, acuter senses and slightly better recall are all that they accomplish (and that's if you're having a lucky day). I suspect galantamine modulates CaMKII via allosteric modulation of nAChRs, and huperzine acts simply as a NDMAR antagonist. This would explain why they show promise in alzheimer's and whatnot, but it would not rely on the old (and probably incorrect) dogma that "acetylecholine=good". As has been suggested before on this forum, I believe that inhibiting AChE is bad in the long-term since it seems to lead to receptor downregulation (by increasing acetylcholine concentrations). It has been thought that choline and other precursors have not the same rebound effects as do AChE (although the reasoning and evidence are weak).


So, paradoxically, forskolin might be closer to a miracle drug than we ever thought. Increasing AChE would cause acetylcholine to be digested more frequently and therefore cause upregulation of receptors.
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#150 medievil

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:51 AM

So looks like there's reversal of tolerance to stimulants going on; wich likely means the potentation also occurs to the anxiolytic benefits.

"Molecular mechanisms underlying forskolin-mediated up-regulation of human dopamine D2L receptors.
Wanderoy MH, Westlind-Danielsson A.
Source
Department of Biochemistry, CNS Preclinical R&D, Astra Arcus AB, Södertälje, Sweden.
Abstract
1. Human dopamine (DA) D2long (hD2L) receptors, expressed by Ltk- cells, can be up-regulated by treating the cells with forskolin for 16 hr (Johansson and Westlind-Danielsson, 1994). We have examined some of the molecular mechanisms underlying this forskolin-mediated up-regulation. 2. Forskolin (100 microM, 16 hr), but not 1,9-dideoxyforskolin, a forskolin analogue that is unable to activate adenylyl cyclase and raise intracellular cAMP concentrations, up-regulates the hD2L receptor population by 43%. The implication of a cAMP-dependent increase in the receptor up-regulation was further substantiated by treating the cells with 8-bromo-cAMP or prostaglandin E1 (PGE1). The forskolin-mediated rise in receptor number was blocked by cycloheximide or an antisense phosphorothioate oligodeoxynucleotide (ODN) directed toward the hD2L mRNA. KT5720, a specific protein kinase A (PKA) inhibitor, completely blocked the receptor rise, whereas pertussis toxin (PTX) attenuated the increase considerably. Forskolin also produced an increase in the level of the DA hD2short (hD2S) receptor expressed by Ltk- cells. This increase was 2.5-fold higher than that found for the hD2L receptor. 3. The forskolin-mediated hD2L receptor rise is dependent on de novo protein synthesis, a rise in cAMP levels, PKA activation, and, at least partially, PTX-sensitive G proteins. 4. Long-term increases in intracellular cAMP levels may change the sensitivity of a DA receptor expressing cell to DA by increasing D2 receptor density through enhanced cAMP-dependent transcription."
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