2626 replies to this topic

[norepinephrine]

Abelard - is phenylpiracetam the best -racetam you've found as an accompaniment to CILTEP? I'm finding that for my field of study - mathematics, kanna + forskolin gives me the motivation and focus to work, but leaves me burnt in terms of working memory, and when I'm 20 lines into solving a difficult problem, that's generally what I need most. (FWIW I take creatine, though it doesn't seem to offer much personal gain in terms of working memory despite the supporting literature, and piracetam as well as Noopept always seem a bit hit-or-miss on an acute basis.)

[Amorphous]

Abelard or any current user of CILTeP,
I am curious of the once daily daily of Froskolin and Zembrin. I've read that some people are doing twice daily.
Is there any reason of only once daily and not twice daily, and vice versa? Is it more effective of using it once daily as compared to twice daily? or is it only your personal preference or need?
Also, what is the reason of using low dose (5-20mg) of Froskolin instead of 25 mg? Most supplement come with 25 mg (20% of 125mg). Sorry for posting so many questions - I am new to this and try to understand more about this stack. Thanks

From how I understood it, taking higher doses of Forskolin inevitably end up in fatigue. I'm not sure why others have chosen to swap out Artichoke Extract for Kanna/Zembrin, but it seems that they're getting a better effect from it. Because Zembrin acts similarly to an SSRI, I personally can't take it since i"m already on a nightly dose albeit small...I don't want to risk playing around with too much serotonin. I've been there and done that..once. Prescribed by a doctor and came close if not just inside serotonin syndrome. For those on any serotonin-enhancing compounds already, I personally would be careful with Zembrin. For me, it was the addition of L-tryptophan a long time ago to assist in inducing sleep with the AD I was taking. I'm not sure if you're considered a dopamine pre-cursor with the stack, but for me..it was a necessary and well liked addition because it woke me right up in the morning and lasted a could 4-5 hrs in combination with the AE and the CF. I did find afternoon fatigue setting in around 2 pm so I've just keep swapping out different energy enhancing supplements, from 350mgs NALT, to caffeine or sulbutiamine. I like the stack and have surpassed 60 days on it now. I've decided to use the original formulation along with L-PA or DLPA or NALT in the mornings depending on how I'm feeling for 90 days total and then swap into a different nootropic stack. I purchased the 25mg Forkolin the 2nd time as well without paying much attention and only take about a third of the capsule or less with the stack.

Thanks xsiv1. So avoiding fatigue is the major reason for the low dose of Forskolin, not because of effectiveness reason; I guess I will go for 1 cap (=25mg) once a day 20-30 min before breakfast instead of 1/2 cap and see how it goes with my body. I might increase it to twice daily for its weight losing effect and see how bad is the fatigue. I guess I can also use sulbutiamine (and/or idebenone) to counteract the fatigue if it comes. Also, I think I will go for artichoke extract twice daily with meals, not only for cognition but for other health benefit. I'll reserve kanna extract as an "as needed" backup when I need more focus in learning. I've read that it has a initial stimulant effect and follow by sedation (so it may actually help me to sleep). I'll also take L-phenylanlanine before my study time to complete the ciltep effect. Coffee is actually optional and I'll not take it at night time.

[abelard lindsay]

Abelard - is phenylpiracetam the best -racetam you've found as an accompaniment to CILTEP? I'm finding that for my field of study - mathematics, kanna + forskolin gives me the motivation and focus to work, but leaves me burnt in terms of working memory, and when I'm 20 lines into solving a difficult problem, that's generally what I need most. (FWIW I take creatine, though it doesn't seem to offer much personal gain in terms of working memory despite the supporting literature, and piracetam as well as Noopept always seem a bit hit-or-miss on an acute basis.)

Phenylpiracetam is great with the stack. I know Liftmode is selling it now, but I have some back from the days when Relentless Improvement used to carry it. It's the stack I take when taking finals or going to job interviews.

As far as Zembrin dosing goes, I take 25mg of Zembrin because that seems to work and that's what's recommended on the bottle.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 06 May 2013 - 02:58 AM.

[Amorphous]

Sceletium Tortuosum contains Mesembrine, which is a potent serotonin-uptake inhibitor with a novel mechanism of action for this known molecule, that suggests therapeutic applications for anxiety, depression and other serious mental health conditions.


Compounds: Sceletium tortuous contains mesembrine as the major alkaloid, together with mesembrenone, mesembrenol, and tortuosamine.
Therapeutic Indications: Anxiolytic
Dosage, Method, and Duration Administration: In tablet form. a dose of 50 – 200 mg of the dried, powdered herb is included in tablets and capsules(about I – 4 mg of alkaloid) and taken two or three times a day. Traditionally, the dried product is regularly chewed throughout the day (the frequency is controlled by the slight hypnotic effect, similar to the practice of smoking tobacco). Teas,decoctions,and tinctures are also reported to be used,but details of dosage levels are unknown and/or unpublished.
Contraindications: Contraindicated when taking any psychiatric medication, including anti-psychotic drugs, monoamine oxidase inhibitors, serotonin-uptake inhibitors, and benzodiazepine.

The above is from the websites of one of the zembrin product. It indicates it can be taken 2 to 3 times a day (of the I – 4 mg of alkaloid?). Since zembrin is about 25 mg of the extract, maybe it is the reason of the once daily dose can be used. I've read somewhere saying zembrin's half-life is short; in this case, would it be better to take it twice daily with a lower dose?. At any rate, I am going to use Kanna 20:1 extract as a intensifier for ciltep in situation I need extra focus in study since it is a stimulant in its initial effect then follow sedation which is perfection for someone who needs to study intensely at night and still requires some sleep for tomorrow's work - otherwise modafinil or adrafinil maybe a better choice, I think.

[abelard lindsay]

Sceletium Tortuosum contains Mesembrine, which is a potent serotonin-uptake inhibitor with a novel mechanism of action for this known molecule, that suggests therapeutic applications for anxiety, depression and other serious mental health conditions.


Compounds: Sceletium tortuous contains mesembrine as the major alkaloid, together with mesembrenone, mesembrenol, and tortuosamine.

So the substance we are really interested in here is mesembrenone. All the others I consider tolerable impurities. I take Zembrin because it has a better mesembrenone to mesembrine ratio than kanna.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21798331

Mesembrine was the most active alkaloid against the 5-HT transporter (K(i) 1.4 nM), while mesembrenone was active against the 5-HT transporter and PDE4 (IC(50)'s<1 μM).

In a previous post (http://www.longecity...post__p__577913) I posted a link to a full-text of the study that contains lab results for Zembrin showing it completely inhibited PDE4.

----

As an aside, I am kind of addicted at this point to online courses. I am taking 4 at the same time and keeping up to date on assignments and quiz deadlines with them all. I want to spend all my free time studying. I watch most of the lectures at 1.5x speed.

The point is is that I am not some genius now, but the motivation to study and learn comes effortlessly, almost addictively, to the point where I don't see the point in socializing or watching TV or doing just about anything but studying. For exercise I walk on the treadmill and watch lectures on my laptop. I day dream at work about going home and studying. I have always been a bit of a nerd but now it's gotten totally ridiculous.

It's like those people who are addicted to World Of Warcraft and that's their life. It's kind of like that for me and on-line courses now. If I didn't have to work I'd probably just stay home and study all day.

On the less exciting side, I'm still decent, but not great, at math. My Cambridge Brain Sciences scores are better at grammatical reasoning and odd one out (fluid intelligence) but not paired associates ( working memory ).

Is this happening to anyone else? It could be just that I have somewhat unusual neuro-chemistry.

[peakplasma]

Unfortunately, after half-a bottle of Zembrin, I am ditching it.

Zembrin is too serotonergic for me; if you have ever tried studying on MDMA you will know what I am talking about.

I am back on the Artichoke extract which is a more Adderally stimulation.

[norepinephrine]

Yeah, I've only noticed the kanna having an Adderall-like stimulation briefly before tapering off 2 hours in. Given I've gained a newfound appreciation for rhodiola after finding a viable brand, I'm about ready to ditch kanna myself and go back to artichoke.

On that note, I think rhodiola provides a good synergism to the stack, though I'd be wary of mixing it with anything SSRI-related. Previous trials of rosea with LEF and Herbs, Etc. didn't give me much desired results, but Eclectic Institute has been very promising so far.

Edited by norepinephrine, 06 May 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[aarfai]

Hello,

A few questions for Abelard Lindsay, or anyone else, if you would so kind:

1. Can Modafinil+Zembrin be used instead of Forskilin+Zembrin with similar/positive CILTeP results?
2. On days when using Phenylpiracetam what is your dosage like?
3. Can Noopept be taken with this stack?
4. Any good recommendations on neuro online courses?

Thank you in advance!

[riloal]

Hi, i have read all the thread i will start my CILTEP stack soon, but i miss zrbarnes, It,s been a while since he post here.
Please post how are you doing?

[chung_pao]

I recently read Abelard's recommendation of pairing phenylpiracetam with the CILTP stack and wow! Amazing effect.
I've tried pairing most kinds of stuff with the CILTP stack (all racetams) and this is superior to anything I've tried, by Far!
I'd even go as far as to say this is better than modafinil.

Effects: No anxiety (usual side of dopaminergics), elevated confidence, significantly increased motivation, near-photographic memorization of all processed material.
If this comes without side-effects, it seems I've found the perfect nootropic stack, after a year of experimenting.

Stack:
50-100 mg Phenylpiracetam, 10-20 mg active Forskolin, 500 mg Artichoke extract, High dose Choline bitartrate (1200 mg).
I also added: White willow (natural source of aspirin, since I was fasting) and mixed xanthines (green tea and cocoa extract; chocamine), 500 mg ALCAR.
I think CDP choline can also be synergistic due to its dopaminergic effect.
I avoid dopamine precursors because I don't seem to need them, and I've experienced side effects from them earlier.

IMO, the combined effect of targeting nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, dopamine, PDE-4 inhibition and cAMP are what's responsible for the effect.
If anyone wants to try the full potential of the CILTP stack, I'd definitely recommend combining it with Phenylpiracetam and a choline source.
The nicotinic stimulation brings a kind of focus to the experience that can't be accomplished with catecholamines alone.

Edited by chung_pao, 07 May 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[xsiv1]

Near photographic memory you say? That's great that you've found a seemingly limitless combination. Perhaps others will enjoy enhanced effects with phenylpiracetam's addition but I can say with some certainty that you're amongst what will inevitably be a rare and highly specialized quotient. Besides, we're all going by anecdotal reports since it's the best we have. If be very difficult to control for all the intervening variables - from genetics, to socialization history, age, socioeconomic status amongst a dozen others to truly have quantifiable results. I've never underestimated the importance of qualitative research though. It cannot be discounted. I see a good topic for someone's future thesis or dissertation. Only wish I'd knew anything of the sort back in the 90's. As an aside, I would advise anyone in a field where social sciences may play a role (perhaps kinesiology or the like) to avoid combining quantitative and qualitative methodologies. Takes forever ffs.

[norepinephrine]

I recently read Abelard's recommendation of pairing phenylpiracetam with the CILTP stack and wow! Amazing effect.
I've tried pairing most kinds of stuff with the CILTP stack (all racetams) and this is superior to anything I've tried, by Far!
I'd even go as far as to say this is better than modafinil.

Effects: No anxiety (usual side of dopaminergics), elevated confidence, significantly increased motivation, near-photographic memorization of all processed material.
If this comes without side-effects, it seems I've found the perfect nootropic stack, after a year of experimenting.

Stack:
50-100 mg Phenylpiracetam, 10-20 mg active Forskolin, 500 mg Artichoke extract, High dose Choline bitartrate (1200 mg).
I also added: White willow (natural source of aspirin, since I was fasting) and mixed xanthines (green tea and cocoa extract; chocamine), 500 mg ALCAR.
I think CDP choline can also be synergistic due to its dopaminergic effect.
I avoid dopamine precursors because I don't seem to need them, and I've experienced side effects from them earlier.

IMO, the combined effect of targeting nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, dopamine, PDE-4 inhibition and cAMP are what's responsible for the effect.
If anyone wants to try the full potential of the CILTP stack, I'd definitely recommend combining it with Phenylpiracetam and a choline source.
The nicotinic stimulation brings a kind of focus to the experience that can't be accomplished with catecholamines alone.

Just pulled the trigger on some phenylpiracetam so I'm looking forward to trying this. You don't use L-tyrosine or L-phenylalanine, eh?

[abelard lindsay]

I switched back to Artichoke today just to get some perspective on taking Zembrin daily for the last few weeks. It's certainly a different experience. There are few things I noticed: The 2pm crash was far milder. I was better at socializing and I was in a better mood generally.

Zembrin's effects were good at first but slowly built up over a month or so to remind me of the negative effects of Hesperidin, namely that I became somewhat anti-social, I was more easily irritated and I became a little too obsessed with the studying. Maybe cycling between Zembrin and Artichoke would work better?

Edited by abelard lindsay, 08 May 2013 - 03:04 AM.

[xsiv1]

I believe you're entirely correct in the notion of cycling. I've decided to do a full 90 days of the 'original' stack but have upped my artichoke extract to 800-900. I still get the afternoon crash but have been dealing with it in varying ways. I've found that the PEAK ATP I purchased from Swanson has no effect on mental fatigue but it seems to have a positive effect during my workouts after a work. I've been taking piracetam and choline at around 10am and will probably finally try some Phenylpiracetam from LM since I've had success with them thus far. In the past, I ran a Noopept cycle in the afternoon but it eventually made me irritable so I stopped using it after a solid month or more. I have plenty left and intend on going back to it one day - at least before it expires lol. Does this site not allow for editing of one's previous responses?

[middpanther88]

Can anyone else vouch for the power of phenylpiracetam in the ciltep stack?

[norepinephrine]

I'll post a report as soon as I receive mine.

[chung_pao]

Btw, stacking phenylpiracetam with CILTP doesn't change the fact that you become tolerant to it very quickly.
For me, it has the significant benefit of not leading to withdrawal, which I'm usually very susceptible to. But there's the tolerance issue... (for p-piracetam, not ciltp)

[medievil]

Any idea's on ways to counteract the nausia and anxiety when overdoing it? if we find something we may be able to get much more out of cilltep.

[medievil]

Metoclopramide:

D2 inhibition = more camp
5HT4 agonism = more camp
5HT3 antagonism = less nausia from camping.

Downside: much more toxic D2 antagonist, gives me horrible akathisia and dystonia, wich hurts like hell as your muscles start moving more then they can, on top of going completely spastic and making all sorts of extremely odd painfull movements, needs massive benzo dose, benadryl and the strongest wodca to reverse, all takes 20 minutes to work so you have to endure the extreme pain.

That said im sensitive to it but its dodgy toxic stuff thats OTC (while safer meds are not, fucking rediqueles.

[xsiv1]

Any idea's on ways to counteract the nausia and anxiety when overdoing it? if we find something we may be able to get much more out of cilltep.

When I take my CILTEP stack, I also have a coffee and every other day throw in 200mgs of Suntheanine. I find it just takes the edge off ever so slightly but doesn't effect how alert I'm feeling from the stack. It's working pretty well for me. Even though that amount of theanine is 'very' subtle for most people, for whatever reason, it just jibes well with me mood wise and anxiety wise as well.

[medievil]

Having tried theanine before i can only imagine it to go perfect with this stack.

[Daruman]

Does anyone notice brain fog on this stack? How does one prevent it? I have tried it a few times and have been unable to study because of brain fog.

I would keep trying different doses, but I need to be in the zone for finals.

[norepinephrine]

Ginkgo+gotu has helped me the most with that; it'll also amplify the effects of CILTEP slightly, given ginkgo is a mild norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. Other than that, a mild acetylcholinesterase-inhibitor or choline sources could help. In my experience, ALCAR in the right dosage works well.

[chung_pao]

Another recommendation for folks who want to utilize the potential of the cAMP-release and PDE4 inhibition theory:

Modafinil + Zembrin.

The problem I've had with Zembrin was that it was too serotonergic. I've been of prozac before, and the serotonergic zombie-state is familiar to me and something I really despise.
However, combining Modafinil with Zembrin eliminates the drowsiness and left are only the cAMP-release from modafinil and the incredible (complete?) PDE4-inhibition provided by mesembrine.
Even though forskolin is a more selective cAMP-release agent, I believe modafinil is also pretty potent in inducing cAMP, but does so via a D1/D5 agonism instead.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....></span></span>
"Modafinil increased cAMP concentrations..."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18060037
"Blockade of dopamine D1 receptors attenuated prolonged wakefulness and synaptic plasticity in these neurons, suggesting that modafinil functions through activation of the dopamine system."

It's different than Forskolin + PDE4 inhibition, but very pleasant.
If I needed to sit down and absorb information for hours I'd definitely use this instead. Mostly because I'm kind of tolerant to Artichoke + Forskolin by now.
Also, the agitation I usually experience from Modafinil is eliminated by Zembrin.
All in all, this stack offers a great alternative. I feel the ingredients synergize very, very well.

Edited by chung_pao, 10 May 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[blueinfinity]

I recently read Abelard's recommendation of pairing phenylpiracetam with the CILTP stack and wow! Amazing effect.
I've tried pairing most kinds of stuff with the CILTP stack (all racetams) and this is superior to anything I've tried, by Far!
I'd even go as far as to say this is better than modafinil.

Effects: No anxiety (usual side of dopaminergics), elevated confidence, significantly increased motivation, near-photographic memorization of all processed material.
If this comes without side-effects, it seems I've found the perfect nootropic stack, after a year of experimenting.

Stack:
50-100 mg Phenylpiracetam, 10-20 mg active Forskolin, 500 mg Artichoke extract, High dose Choline bitartrate (1200 mg).
I also added: White willow (natural source of aspirin, since I was fasting) and mixed xanthines (green tea and cocoa extract; chocamine), 500 mg ALCAR.
I think CDP choline can also be synergistic due to its dopaminergic effect.
I avoid dopamine precursors because I don't seem to need them, and I've experienced side effects from them earlier.

IMO, the combined effect of targeting nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, dopamine, PDE-4 inhibition and cAMP are what's responsible for the effect.
If anyone wants to try the full potential of the CILTP stack, I'd definitely recommend combining it with Phenylpiracetam and a choline source.
The nicotinic stimulation brings a kind of focus to the experience that can't be accomplished with catecholamines alone.

where are you getting your stack from?

[chung_pao]

where are you getting your stack from?

Phenylpiracetam:
Elevated labs (before they started ignoring their customers)
And: http://www.strongsup...y-antaeus-labs/

Forskolin, Artichoke, Choline: Smart powders.

Zembrin: Iherb.
Modafinil: www.edandmore.com

Right now, the most effective stacks I've found are the following, in order of potency:
1. Modafinil, Zembrin.
2. Artichoke, Forskolin, Caffeine (tea, chocamine, coffee), Phenylpiracetam, ALCAR, Choline (high dose). Tyrosine optional.
3. Artichoke, Forskolin, Caffeine (tea, chocamine, coffee). Tyrosine optional.

They are all build around the idea of CILTP (I hope. This is debatable).
What's perfect about them aren't just the potency of the desired effect, but also the absence of undesired effects.
I find the zembrin almost eliminated all the side-effects of modafinil, both during and after.

Edited by chung_pao, 11 May 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[Ames]

Is there a consensus on a reliable kanna powder product / vendor? This may have been before discussed but I missed it.

[blueinfinity]

where are you getting your stack from?

Phenylpiracetam:
Elevated labs (before they started ignoring their customers)
And: http://www.strongsup...y-antaeus-labs/

Forskolin, Artichoke, Choline: Smart powders.

Zembrin: Iherb.
Modafinil: www.edandmore.com

Right now, the most effective stacks I've found are the following, in order of potency:
1. Modafinil, Zembrin.
2. Artichoke, Forskolin, Caffeine (tea, chocamine, coffee), Phenylpiracetam, ALCAR, Choline (high dose). Tyrosine optional.
3. Artichoke, Forskolin, Caffeine (tea, chocamine, coffee). Tyrosine optional.

They are all build around the idea of CILTP (I hope. This is debatable).
What's perfect about them aren't just the potency of the desired effect, but also the absence of undesired effects.
I find the zembrin almost eliminated all the side-effects of modafinil, both during and after.

Ive heard modafinil can be very addicting and the effects rather "too strong to be normal/healthy" what are your thoughts?

Ill definitely have to give the #2 and #3 a try, havent tried ciltep yet, Ive heard of people building a tolerance there.

What are some ways to reduce building tolerance, or maybe a proven cycle period?

[Judd Crane]

I am interested to try vinpocetine and others have been asking for it so now I will add to the morning stack, 15 mg of vinpocetine and get back soon.

How was your experience with vinpocetine and CILTEP?

[Godof Smallthings]

Do people feel their visualization abilities have increased with this stack, as kassem talked about on the first page?