2626 replies to this topic

[xsiv1]

Well a 3.85% forskolin product is 96.15% other stuff that can potentially mess with your digestive system.

True.

[Shorty]

Disregard this post.I was confused.

Edited by Shorty, 16 July 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[cylack]

Has anyone tried using Fisetin (trademark Cognisetin) in this stack? In a 2006 paper Maher et al. of the Salk Institute wrote that Fisetin activates CREB via stimulation of ERK phosphorylation and not by inhibition of PDE's. So, it would seem that Fisetin accomplishes what Forskolin does in this stack (cAMP activation, which ultimately activates CREB).

I want to try this stack, but am debating whether to use Forskolin or Fisetin.

[xsiv1]

Has anyone tried using Fisetin (trademark Cognisetin) in this stack? In a 2006 paper Maher et al. of the Salk Institute wrote that Fisetin activates CREB via stimulation of ERK phosphorylation and not by inhibition of PDE's. So, it would seem that Fisetin accomplishes what Forskolin does in this stack (cAMP activation, which ultimately activates CREB).

I want to try this stack, but am debating whether to use Forskolin or Fisetin.

Why not try Forskolin when you know through reading this thread that it works for many people. If that doesn't suit your needs, you can always swap it out for another compound.

[Strangelove]

If I was to place an order and had the extra cash (around $11) I would add Fisetin on my CILTEP try list, too. Although if you are looking for something extra to buy over the basic ingredients, maybe you want to look in Zembrin? Sounds promising from many people here.

[magta39]

Maybe I missed it...but has anyone tried adding creatine to the CILTEP stack with positive results?

[norepinephrine]

I have.

On paper it looks like a great addition - in practice, I notice physical benefits but almost nothing in the way of mental ones.

Magnesium is a similarly worthy addition, though, given its connection to ATP.

[TheBlackStar]

Anyway, with regards to guanfacine, In studies, Rolipram and Guanfacine cancel each other's effects but although Rolipram cancels Guanfacine's effects, it does not lower performance below baseline levels. Has anybody taken Guanfacine and found it beneficial? I haven't seen a lot of good reviews around the net that it actually works. It also seems to have some side effects. Here's two threads I found on it: http://www.addforums...ead.php?t=54053 , http://www.drugs-for...ad.php?t=126697. It seems to decrease hyperactivity/impulsivity but otherwise the results appear somewhat mixed.

I don't know if you read the whole study from this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....?report=classic. It's definitely worth reading. The review still concludes that a2a agonists could benefit those with ADHD. It looks like "they" "chose" STM over LTM.

Check this out: http://books.google....ocampus&f=false. On page 372, it said PDE4A, PDE4B, and PDE8B are primarily expressed in the hippocampus while PDE4D represents the majority of the soluble PDE4 in the brain. I don't know what the second half of the sentence meant. Does it mean it's unbound to any specific part of the brain?

I think we should group buy $35 to buy this article, http://www.nature.co...s/nbt.1598.html lol.

Yeah I agree the jury is still out with a2(a) agonists. Again, maybe the side effects from Guanfacine/Clonidine like dizziness, somnolence, decreased dopamine (my hypothesis from this link: http://www.ingentaco...58?crawler=true), etc that come from it's insane antihypertensive action masks any perceived improvement in working memory. I mean it does shut down NE production (at least in the PFC). Taking preventative steps such as those outlined in this artcle: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2888469/ could allow for a higher dose of a2(a) agonists. Completely off topic, but it could also be taken with a low-dose of Amisulpride: http://forums.phoeni...r-me-cfs.20964/, Selegiline, or any long term DA enhancement in the deep parts of the brain (i.e. mesolimbic and nigrostriatal pathway).

-----------

SOOOOOOO, in short, I was born with an impeccable memory: idetitic is what teachers called it (not in any way bragging...believe me). If that was not enough, my ability to grasp new information, concepts and skills was very apparent from an early age. However, growing up I was often treated differently by peers and bullied to the point where I slowly lost interest in higher achievement and pushing the bar. Don't get me wrong, I still did well by everyone's standards but I held back from truly challenging my true capabilities. Time went on while the pressure of social expectations, bullying, family problems and personal crisis built up to my eventual mental breakdown first semester of sophomore year where I failed two of my most important courses. It took a few weeks for me to understand what had happened...my heart used to sink when I fell short of an A, but heck, I just received my first AND second F...ever. The next two years would constitute a downward spiral into a deep depression, suicidal tendencies, and erratic anxiety all coupled with excessive alcohol and drug abuse... I would say I basically slept through two years of my life. I did at the start of my senior year begin to turn things around: got sober (and have been for just over 9 months), started to exercise and improve my overall health and nutrition. Currently I would say I only suffer from seasonal depression and a controllable level of anxiety due to the overbearing need to undo the harm to my brain and reputation.

The details from my prior paragraph serve as a semi-intro (although not the thread for it...sorry), but more importantly as context of the last 4 years which have preceded me soon entering my 5th year at University. Currently, I can say I have had improvement in my memory and reasoning just by becoming sober alone but still remains a noticeable deficit of where I once was. Two things I feel may have took a toll on my brain are obviously the drugs and alcohol but specifically a) excessive pot smoking and b) excessive oxygen deprivation to my brain (holding in pot smoke too long, too many times a day). Ultimately, I am an aspiring user of nootropics but have not had the opportunity to give them nor CILTEP a fair trial. I would like to start by saying thank you to Lindsay and the rest of you on this thread for having undergone numerous accounts of trial and error for the greater good. I personally have been a ghost on the forum for a very, very long time and am an avid researcher in the area of optimizing our biological makeups. I do now have questions to ask based on my history and current situation (if anything is unclear please don't refrain from asking for clarification).

1) If I am allowed to ask this...has someone who previously smoked marijuana tried CILTEP (specifically), nootropics or any other supplementaton with positive effects with respect to cognitive functioning? I guess I'm hoping for some validation for the possibility that my brain is not without hope.

2) Is it safe for me to start right into CILTEP or should I adjust my current medications/supplements first? Currently I am on a few medications...daily I take Wellbutrin XL (sometimes noted to have some nootropic benefits) which helps with general mood and energy as well as helping me curb depression promptly if it rears its ugly head, and just simple things like vitamin b complex, fish oils, creatine, etc. I have taken time off Wellbutrin XL a few times and have not always succumb to negative effects of withdrawal. Although likely not important to note, I do take propanolol, lorezepam or modafinil on a as needed basis...modafinil is usually the days before tests/exams or when I have a heavy day of studying.

3) Of all nootropics I have read into, I liked the cost-risk ratio of piracetam and would like to know if it is better/safer to start with piracetam, CILTEP, or both?


Those are probably my most begging questions. Given I am taking summer courses, and will resume full time studies in two months time, I would want to give any regiments a fair trial to judge their benefits beforehand. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read through this and I appreciate your help. I wrote this very quickly as I am studying for a test Monday. Oh!, and I quoted KoolK3n in the begininning of this post...as a token of my appreciation to everyone in this thread I went and got the article KoolK3n proposed y'all buy . Find it attached and I hope someone finds it useful.

Edit: I have read through a lot of this forum in chunks over time (likely rereading parts without realizing). If my questions have been answered before I apologize in advance.

Attached Files

•  PDE4D - Burgin 2009.pdf   954.86KB   37 downloads

Edited by TheBlackStar, 20 July 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[KoolK3n]

Those are probably my most begging questions. Given I am taking summer courses, and will resume full time studies in two months time, I would want to give any regiments a fair trial to judge their benefits beforehand. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read through this and I appreciate your help. I wrote this very quickly as I am studying for a test Monday. Oh!, and I quoted KoolK3n in the begininning of this post...as a token of my appreciation to everyone in this thread I went and got the article KoolK3n proposed y'all buy . Find it attached and I hope someone finds it useful.

OMG THANK YOU!!! I highly appreciate what you've done and I hope you enjoy interacting with the community. Again, thank you again for the article. We will make good use of it. I'm not an expert on CILTEP so I can't offer any solid advice. I'm sure OP will gladly. But I do have some experience with Piracetam. For me, while it did slightly improve overall cognition, it wasn't worth it. It induced depression and CFS like symptoms. My advice would be to experiment with other nootropics with less potential for adverse effects like Acetyl L-Carnitine, N-AcetylCysteine, Phosphatidylserine, CILTEP, etc.

[xsiv1]

TheBlackStar, our stories are similar in many ways. My path occurred during Graduate school where I dipped heavily into drinking and weed but I managed to graduate, get my Masters degree and find good work. Problem was, I was in a spiral and MDD didn't help. Self-medicating etc etc. Clean 7 years during the first week of this month. Time will heal some of the damage you're incurred (much of it likely due to glutamate excitoxicity and apoptosis). I'd personally recommend starting with Piracetam as it's the best studied. I've had success with Piracetam, Noopept (only 3 days in a row and then I'll get irritable) and Aniracetam. I normally combine Noopept with Aniracetam and I get a good mix of anxiolysis with better focus and better recall..especially with regard to words. I've also sporadically taken phenylpiracetam and I've used it 30 minutes after CILTEP. I don't think you can really go wrong with CILTEP but you can also start with some of the racetams. Noopept is said to increase BDNF and most enhance neural plasticity. You 'might' also check out the existing thread on Cerebrolysin

[stephen_b]

I've never taken Selegline but have heard a lot of good things about it. It was one of the original anti-aging pills because it takes care of preventing degradation of the sustantia nigra, which is the dopamine producing part of the brain, by blocking dopamine metabolism to DOPAC and instead letting it get metabolized by the more benign COMT pathway.

Just rereading the thread. I see that astragaloside IV might also protect the sustantia nigra (in vitro study PMID 19409437). I don't take astragaloside IV, but I do take astragalus root extract. I need more experience with the CILTEP stack before I can tell how it interacts.

[Strangelove]

1) If I am allowed to ask this...has someone who previously smoked marijuana tried CILTEP (specifically), nootropics or any other supplementaton with positive effects with respect to cognitive functioning? I guess I'm hoping for some validation for the possibility that my brain is not without hope.

I am very positive that for the long term your brain surely is not without a hope concerning your drug usage. Unfortunately, I have an experience with pot and many heavy drugs before I completely changed my ways and from the experience of many other people "turning their brain around" (is that an expression in English?? :P) your drug use sounds "minor".

I had memory issues a few months after pot use (after using it heavily for couple years) but the thought that I did something to my brain (and more specifically my memory) stayed for a few more years, even looking at research that did not find long term damage from pot use, I was always (automatically) looking what I did not remember supporting the thought of drug damage. After I let it go, and looked in healthy eating and supplementation I am feeling as good as always.

Edited by Fate, 21 July 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[chung_pao]

Currently using CILTEP successfully whenever I need to eliminate the feeling of sleep-deprivation, such as when changing circadian rhythm.
(I've been taking Zembrin and Forskolin at 06.00 in the morning to adapt my circadian rhythm to a new work schedule)

Got the idea after reading this article:
http://www.scienceda...91215160900.htm
"Enzyme Behind Effects of Sleep Deprivation Discovered"

They are referring to PDE.

cAMP (/forskolin) seems to acutely eliminate the sense of lethargy normally experienced when waking up too early. PDE-inhibition sustains this wakefulness.

Edited by chung_pao, 22 July 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Strangelove]

Nice! I am puting together the stack and leaving it near my bed. It seems I would not be able to sleep my regular hours tonight, and fortunately my morning schedule is reading reports.

[fall]

Currently using CILTEP successfully whenever I need to eliminate the feeling of sleep-deprivation, such as when changing circadian rhythm.
(I've been taking Zembrin and Forskolin at 06.00 in the morning to adapt my circadian rhythm to a new work schedule)

Got the idea after reading this article:
http://www.scienceda...91215160900.htm
"Enzyme Behind Effects of Sleep Deprivation Discovered"

They are referring to PDE.

cAMP (/forskolin) seems to acutely eliminate the sense of lethargy normally experienced when waking up too early. PDE-inhibition sustains this wakefulness.

In my experience so far, it sounds about right. I've been taking Artichoke and Forskolin with a cup of coffee or tea upon 1 hour of waking up for a few weeks (1-2 days off on weekends), now I keep waking up at the same time (+-10min) every morning without an alarm clock. I also feel less lethargic.

[xsiv1]

For those using an SSRI and are avoiding Zembrin because it also acts like an SSRI -I'll share my experience. I recently purchased some Zembrin given all the positive experiences. To this point, I'd say I'm quite experienced with the original CILTEP formulation in conjunction with NALT and a coffee. In my case, I've been on a 30mg per night dose of Paxil for at least a decade. I've already stated in this thread that I don't really need the Paxil anymore but haven't had the will or desire to taper off of it at this point in life - (I've tried it before and well, not fun) because I have a young family and career that requires daily focus on critical tasks. Anyways, I don't experience anything from it - no side effects anymore and nothing that's discernible. If anything it helps me fall asleep. I decided to try a small dose of Zembrin in to replace the Artichoke extract. I didn't experience any adverse effects. I eventually raised the dose of Zembrin to what's commonly used and find that it indeed works with the rest of CILTEP. No indications, or symptoms remotely similar to serotonin overload. I don't know if it's because Zembrin isn't really as powerful in enhancing serotonin levels or if Paxil is doing what it originally did do. Anyways, no side effects in my case. I can take my nightly dose of Paxil and in the morning take Zembrin without issue.

Now to the brass tacks of it all. Zembrin vs. Artichoke Extract. I actually don't feel any difference in certain memory tasks that I perform at work. Basically, it involves looking at a sheet of data that includes text and numbers and entering them into the database. No discernible difference in terms of memory or alertness/focus. I think they both work equally well. In fact, I'll finish the Zembrin and make another assessment nearing the end of this cycle. What I do like to do lately, is take 50mgs of phenylpiracetam, 1500-1600mgs of Piracetam with only about 300mgs of Alpha GPC about 1.25hrs to 1.5hrs after I've taken the CILTEP stack and I'm ready to work. Enhanced focus, alertness, motivation & attention. I've been taking this for about 3-4 days a week and then I'll switch back to my other stack. In the afternoon at around 1:30, I'll take 10mgs of Noopept plus 1500mgs Aniracetam and some good fats or Krill Oil capsules and by 2:30, one capsule of NADH and some methylcobalamin taken sublingually. This combo is working out very well for me. I'm focused nearly all day and can move and complete tasks all the way until 7-8pm. Again, I've experienced no side effects from this regimen. I'm careful to keep the phenylpiracetam to a few days a week and have noticed no tolerance increase nor desire to increase the dose to 100.

Not saying that Zembrin will work for others on SSRI's the same as it does for me (side-effect free) but if you're going to try it, start off slow.

[xsiv1]

Hmm, more opinions of CILTEP over on reddit. I think someone debating it's use, should try it in it's original formulation to see if it's working for them. After all, it's cheap to use Artichoke Extract and some Forskolin with a dopamine precursor and caffeine...essentially what I've used for over 100 days.

Check out the the question posed to this neurologist (or whomever he is) about CILTEP:
http://www.reddit.co...sk_us_anything/

[stephen_b]

I could definitely feel something working with ~7 mg forskolin (roughly; my scale is only rated as being accurate to the nearest 10mg), one zembrin, and one NOW rhodiola.

I had a few cups of coffee in the morning, and the effect was mild.

One cup of iced green tea over lunch made the effect really noticeable. I wonder if the EGCG content of green tea might play a role in how this stack behaves.

[uekte]

Is anyone aware of a reputable source for Zembrin that will ship to the U.K?

Thanks.

[stephen_b]

Is anyone aware of a reputable source for Zembrin that will ship to the U.K?

Thanks.

Does iHerb ship to the UK? They stock it.

[cylack]

Before taking this stack wanted to find out what are the known side effects so far from those taking it?

I was taking Bacopa Monnieri for the luteolin in it before finding out about this stack and it caused my TSH to increase significantly. Does Artichoke extract have any effects on TSH levels?

[stablemind]

For those that notice an improvement in memory: At higher dosages, have you guys experienced an impairment in short term memory? I noticed that no matter if I took a low or high dose, my STM as well as visual memory was worse than baseline.

Edited by stablemind, 26 July 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

For those that notice an improvement in memory: At higher dosages, have you guys experienced an impairment in short term memory? I noticed that no matter if I took a low or high dose, my STM as well as visual memory was worse than baseline.

I think the STM issue could be because of ACHE transcription upregulation by forskolin (there's a reference to the study where this was observered earlier in the thread). That would also explain sleepiness as anti-cholinergics are sleep aids and generally negative for short term memory.

I take ALCAR on a regular basis. If I take it in the afternoon when taking CILTEP it seems the effects are stronger than usual. I'll have to look through the literature when I'm not replying from my smartphone, but my intuition from studying dopamine and serotonin metabolism is that higher neurotransmitter metabolic throughput is usually associated with enhanced cognitive function. Theoretically, when ACHE is upregulated it should be better able to process ACH at synaptic junctions, increasing reaction times and STM, assuming enough ACH is present. Chung Pao reported good results with ALCAR earlier. Have you tried taking the stack with ALCAR?

[magta39]

I have had problems with ACHE upregulation, so I tried my morning CILTEP stack with 4mgs galantamine which solved the sleepiness but gave me extreme insomnia I could not turn off my mind. The next day I skipped CILTEP. Then next day tried it again with the same results.....today took only 2mgs galantamine with CILTEP and seems to be just right. I am only taking CILTEP every other day.

[abelard lindsay]

I have had problems with ACHE upregulation, so I tried my morning CILTEP stack with 4mgs galantamine which solved the sleepiness but gave me extreme insomnia I could not turn off my mind. The next day I skipped CILTEP. Then next day tried it again with the same results.....today took only 2mgs galantamine with CILTEP and seems to be just right. I am only taking CILTEP every other day.

Galantamine in my experience is way too strong for day to day use. IMHO, it's probably better to take ALCAR which gives the upregulated ACHE more choline to metabolize at a faster rate than baseline.

[magta39]

Yes, I am only taking galantamine every other day with the CILTEP...the next day taking piracetam and artichoke only...will try this for awhile.

[KoolK3n]

For those that notice an improvement in memory: At higher dosages, have you guys experienced an impairment in short term memory? I noticed that no matter if I took a low or high dose, my STM as well as visual memory was worse than baseline.

How old are you?

[xsiv1]

Has anyone tried a reduced (lower than their normal dosage) of Modafinil with CILTEP? I think I remember Chung Pao mentioning something of the sort. On topic though, I don't notice any executive functioning or short term memory deficits when taking CILTEP. For me, I can take Zembrin or Artichoke Extract with nearly similar results. Zembrin seems to perk me up a tad more as far as I can tell.

[chung_pao]

Has anyone tried a reduced (lower than their normal dosage) of Modafinil with CILTEP? I think I remember Chung Pao mentioning something of the sort. On topic though, I don't notice any executive functioning or short term memory deficits when taking CILTEP. For me, I can take Zembrin or Artichoke Extract with nearly similar results. Zembrin seems to perk me up a tad more as far as I can tell.

I cycle Artichoke and Zembrin, since they tend to become a little weaker over time. My standard dose is 2-3x500mg Artichoke OR Zembrin.
They have significantly different effects on mood though. And I apply them differently, depending on the desired outcome of the situation.

I prefer Zembrin instead of Artichoke on days I'm more socially involved. The serotonin fits right in there and probably enhances the "social-learning" aspect of it. i.e. Learning from people. (due to oxytocin, among others)
Artichoke on the other hand, can make me more "dopaminergic"; impatient and focused. It seems more appropriate for solitary work/study.

I also combine both with small doses of Modafinil (10-50 mg), with very good results.
I find these small doses minimizes the side effects: 1) Doesn't interfere with sleep. 2) No manic/impatient effect: It seems to prolong motivation and enhance concentration just adequately, not excessively. It doesn't "trap me" in a concentrated state the way higher doses does.

Edited by chung_pao, 27 July 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[xsiv1]

Has anyone tried a reduced (lower than their normal dosage) of Modafinil with CILTEP? I think I remember Chung Pao mentioning something of the sort. On topic though, I don't notice any executive functioning or short term memory deficits when taking CILTEP. For me, I can take Zembrin or Artichoke Extract with nearly similar results. Zembrin seems to perk me up a tad more as far as I can tell.

I cycle Artichoke and Zembrin, since they tend to become a little weaker over time. My standard dose is 2-3x500mg Artichoke OR Zembrin.
They have significantly different effects on mood though. And I apply them differently, depending on the desired outcome of the situation.

I prefer Zembrin instead of Artichoke on days I'm more socially involved. The serotonin fits right in there and probably enhances the "social-learning" aspect of it. i.e. Learning from people. (due to oxytocin, among others)
Artichoke on the other hand, can make me more "dopaminergic"; impatient and focused. It seems more appropriate for solitary work/study.

I also combine both with small doses of Modafinil (10-50 mg), with very good results.
I find these small doses minimizes the side effects: 1) Doesn't interfere with sleep. 2) No manic/impatient effect: It seems to prolong motivation and enhance concentration just adequately, not excessively. It doesn't "trap me" in a concentrated state the way higher doses does.

Thanks for the feedback. I figured it'd be synergistic with a lower dose of Moda when used sporadically of course (the modafinil).