2626 replies to this topic

[prunk]

My experience with the basic CILTEP stack was a quite positive but only once, when took 10mg of Forskolin. Lower dosages made me tired. Felt pretty energetic, motivated and talkative. It reminded me more of D-Amp than Modafinil. Many aspects of cognition got improved but sadly I also got some issues with working memory. This stuff is not for reading.

Tried it altogether 4 times.

[magta39]

Once you experience the sleepiness from ACHE upregulation, you must take a day or two off from any forskolin to let your brain reset to normal. And it helps to take galantamine on those days off. After that you can continue and experiment with a smaller dose. Hope this helps.....

[channeledfocus]

Hi

what do you guys think is the effect of this stack when pregnant on the newborn in the last trimester of the pregnancy?

[stablemind]

Hi

what do you guys think is the effect of this stack when pregnant on the newborn in the last trimester of the pregnancy?

The stack itself is very experimental. You shouldn't even be thinking about using this if you are pregnant.

[rc897]

Isn't Phenylalanine part of Aspertine? the stuff that is pretty toxic?

http://www.sweetpois...nylalanine.html

[abelard lindsay]

Isn't Phenylalanine part of Aspertine? the stuff that is pretty toxic?

http://www.sweetpois...nylalanine.html

If you have the rare genetic defect known as Phenylketonuria you should not take L-Phenylalanine. Anybody with this disease will certainly be aware of it by early childhood as the disease prevents people from eating a wide array of food.

http://en.wikipedia....Phenylketonuria

All PKU patients must adhere to a special diet low in Phe for optimal brain development. "Diet for life" has become the standard recommended by most experts. The diet requires severely restricting or eliminating foods high in Phe, such as meat, chicken, fish, eggs,nuts, cheese, legumes, milk and other dairy products. Starchy foods, such as potatoes,bread, pasta, and corn, must be monitored. Infants may still be breastfed to provide all of the benefits of breastmilk, but the quantity must also be monitored and supplementation for missing nutrients will be required. The sweetener aspartame, present in many diet foods and soft drinks, must also be avoided, as aspartame contains phenylalanine.

The recommended daily dosage is of L-Pheylalanine 15mg per pound, or 2.2 g for a 150lb individual. I usually take the stack with 1.5g of L-Pheylalanine. If you really really want to get your L-Phenylalanine from a natural source, you can get the equivalent amount from about 107g of cheddar cheese. ( http://www.livestron...-phenylalanine/ )

Aspartame is bad for you largely because when it breaks down in the body it releases methanol which is well known to be toxic. Aspartame should absolutely not be used as a source of L-Pheylalanine in my opinion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17684524

Aspartame is composed of phenylalanine (50%), aspartic acid (40%) and methanol (10%).
...
Methanol, which forms 10% of the broken down product, is converted in the body to formate, which can either be excreted or can give rise to formaldehyde, diketopiperazine (a carcinogen) and a number of other highly toxic derivatives.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 11 August 2013 - 09:22 PM.

[Pirate]

What is the exact dosage of Zembrin to be taken? It doesn't seem to say in the first page.

I have Zembrin from African Red Tea Rooibos. 1 capsule is 25mg.

[abelard lindsay]

What is the exact dosage of Zembrin to be taken? It doesn't seem to say in the first page.

I have Zembrin from African Red Tea Rooibos. 1 capsule is 25mg.

I was taking 1 Zembrin in the morning for a while with good results. Recently, after reading Chung Pao's anecdote, I've been trying 1 Artichoke Extract and 1 Zembrin and the results are subjectively pretty good, though not vastly different from Zembrin by itself. I have never tried more than 1 Zembrin at a time.

[Strangelove]

Any other way to target the ACHE upregulation than taking a break plus galantamine?

The stack works but this is an issue, even when I am not getting sleepy enough to actually go to sleep (at times adding caffeine to the stack) it seems my brain is partly up to speed for reading, although there were some great (!) days also. Is the addition of ALCAR making a noticeable positive difference to the stack?

[ThExperiment]

I've been taking CILTEP stack for about 5 days now.

900mg Artichoke Extract
25mg Forskolin
20mg Sunifiram (Added on day #4 of taking CILTEP)
1G L-Phenylalanine
100mg Phosphatidylserine
2G fish oil
5000IU Vitamin D
500mg Magnesium
Vitamin B Complex
1G ALCAR

I took the CILTEP stack by it's self a few times and didn't feel anything at all. After a lot of reading, I decided to add in Sunifiram and about 45 min after taking CILTEP with 20mg Suni, I could definitely feel the increased focus, improved memory and better mood. Sunifiram by it's self did nothing for me, so it's definitely the combination of the 2 that's working.

Was very easy to motivate myself to study and I found that I retained the information much easier too. To me, the added focus felt a lot like low dose Modafinil, but with increased memorization benefits and without any side effects.

[xsiv1]

Good to hear. What made you decide on 25mgs of forskolin though... especially having just recently started the stack. Edit : You must be used to higher doses of nootropics given the 'on the high end of' range for each compound much less stacked. The fatigue which may be induced by chronic forskolin use at 25mgs would surely be countered by the 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA ;-)

Edited by xsiv1, 12 August 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[ThExperiment]

Good to hear. What made you decide on 25mgs of forskolin though... especially having just recently started the stack. Edit : You must be used to higher doses of nootropics given the 'on the high end of' range for each compound much less stacked. The fatigue which may be induced by chronic forskolin use at 25mgs would surely be countered by the 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA ;-)

I think my dose range is because I weigh 215lbs, and I've always had a high tolerance. Even at the dentist, they have to give me double doses of Novocaine for it to take effect.

[swen]

Good to hear. What made you decide on 25mgs of forskolin though... especially having just recently started the stack. Edit : You must be used to higher doses of nootropics given the 'on the high end of' range for each compound much less stacked. The fatigue which may be induced by chronic forskolin use at 25mgs would surely be countered by the 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA ;-)

Is 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA really that high?

[swen]

Something interesting happened.

I've tried the stack for a few days now, a nothing really remarkable just a really subtle feeling (which i think is ok). After a hard work-out (deadlifting for reps) I had a big rush of energy. I think this is because of dopamine releases during the workout, and the stack amplified this feeling or something.

Anyone experienced this?

[xsiv1]

Good to hear. What made you decide on 25mgs of forskolin though... especially having just recently started the stack. Edit : You must be used to higher doses of nootropics given the 'on the high end of' range for each compound much less stacked. The fatigue which may be induced by chronic forskolin use at 25mgs would surely be countered by the 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA ;-)

Is 1 gram of ALCAR and L-PA really that high?

Well, not really for someone whose used to it. For me, it's double what I take in a day but many people take 2 doses that equal a gram or they take it at once. It would just agitate me if I took a gram of each and perhaps be slightly anxiogenic. Others are known to exceed those dosages regularly so YMMV.

Something interesting happened.

I've tried the stack for a few days now, a nothing really remarkable just a really subtle feeling (which i think is ok). After a hard work-out (deadlifting for reps) I had a big rush of energy. I think this is because of dopamine releases during the workout, and the stack amplified this feeling or something.

Anyone experienced this?

Regularly in the beginning until my afternoon slump began hitting at around 2pm. My workouts are at 4:30 so I'd alternate at 2 between ALCAR, B12 & NADH, sulbutiamine or a pre workout stim, like ephedrine and caffeine. This was after 60+ days though.

[channeledfocus]

I am taking since 5 days:
Artichoke 2*450mg
B-Complex
Phenylalanine 1500mg
Forskolin 5g
Coffee

Vitamin D 2000iu
Vitamin C 1000mg
CoQ10 100mg
Fermented cod liver oiI

I found myself less focused, general more of a tension, my mind is faster than my brain can work, nervous and have problems channeling my energy.
I played Tennis and found myself hyper, not calm, unrelaxed, had a somewhat 'weird' sight, I think my vision was worse but it was not big.
In general I am not a good responder to coffee (it wakes me up but I hate the comedown), these negative effects could very well be related to that.

Is caffeine necessary for this stack to work?
Should I add Alpha-GCP and Acetyl L Carnitine?

Thanks guys

(*I am not pregnant)

Edited by channeledfocus, 13 August 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[xsiv1]

I think Phenylalanine at 1500mg may be to blame. Have you tried it at 500? Or the artichoke at 450-500?

[channeledfocus]

thank you, i will try less of the dopamine precursor

i have taken for a few months, like dr. kalish recommends (as far as i remember he states they only work in combination) 5htp+tyrosine (+b6+magnesium) in a ratio of 1:10 so i had between 1000-2000mg of tyrosine and after 3 months i stopped as i felt also quite nervous and had some adhd symptoms (like described above)

[xsiv1]

thank you, i will try less of the dopamine precursor

i have taken for a few months, like dr. kalish recommends (as far as i remember he states they only work in combination) 5htp+tyrosine (+b6+magnesium) in a ratio of 1:10 so i had between 1000-2000mg of tyrosine and after 3 months i stopped as i felt also quite nervous and had some adhd symptoms (like described above)

I'm afraid I missed any reference to a Dr. by that name but I know dopamine precursors usually work best with a B & C vitamin complex and on an empty stomach. Anything over 500mgs, for me, makes me irritable and gives me a bit of anxiety. By the way, adding ALCAR may have made your symptoms worse. I'll add ALCAR in the afternoon at times if I need a boost. As of late, I've discontinued Alpha-GPC because for some strange reason, like clockwork, when I take it with a racetam, even at 300mgs, it makes me tired after lunch and I begin yawning. I've tried other forms of choline without this effect and have lately just cut it out entirely. Normally at 10am, I'll use 1600 - 2400mgs of piracetam and just 300 alpha-gpc and even after a light lunch and no sleep deprivation, it inevitably leads to mental fatigue. I think I'm going to switch back to cdp-choline or plain lecithin which I still have a bottle of since the Alpha doesn't jibe with me too well. Fwiw, it was NOW brands Alpha GPC.

[magta39]

I often use alpha GPC 100mgs sublingually to calm my nerves before an important meeting.

[channeledfocus]

thank you, i will try less of the dopamine precursor

i have taken for a few months, like dr. kalish recommends (as far as i remember he states they only work in combination) 5htp+tyrosine (+b6+magnesium) in a ratio of 1:10 so i had between 1000-2000mg of tyrosine and after 3 months i stopped as i felt also quite nervous and had some adhd symptoms (like described above)

I'm afraid I missed any reference to a Dr. by that name but I know dopamine precursors usually work best with a B & C vitamin complex and on an empty stomach. Anything over 500mgs, for me, makes me irritable and gives me a bit of anxiety. By the way, adding ALCAR may have made your symptoms worse. I'll add ALCAR in the afternoon at times if I need a boost. As of late, I've discontinued Alpha-GPC because for some strange reason, like clockwork, when I take it with a racetam, even at 300mgs, it makes me tired after lunch and I begin yawning. I've tried other forms of choline without this effect and have lately just cut it out entirely. Normally at 10am, I'll use 1600 - 2400mgs of piracetam and just 300 alpha-gpc and even after a light lunch and no sleep deprivation, it inevitably leads to mental fatigue. I think I'm going to switch back to cdp-choline or plain lecithin which I still have a bottle of since the Alpha doesn't jibe with me too well. Fwiw, it was NOW brands Alpha GPC.

he writes in his book vitamin b6 is necessary, so that the precursor (5htp for serotonin, tyrosine for dopamine) can reach through the blood-brain-barrier, otherwise they are not working.

i heard somewhere that for any nootropic regiment you need choline, others say you either need it or it has not effect.

personally i have not added alcar or alpha gcp (i also have NOW) to this stack yet only tried it with piracetam but cannot speak of any effect it had in either direction.

[xsiv1]

Well, yes. But simply taking a morning B complex vitamin will give you your source and since I take CILTEP in the mornings, they coincide. I do take a small amount of B6 at night as well along with a chelated magnesium and Zinc supplement.

Theoretically, the racetams deplete ACH, which choline supplementation addresses but lately I've been using it sparingly with far less fog/mental fatigue. I also try to get choline through diet. I don't believe everyone needs to supplement choline (with each racetam dose), especially if using ALCAR and some good fish oils but some people might, especially if prone to racetam headaches.

[TVO]

Didn't someone post on the thread that caffeine cancels out the effects of the artichoke extract + forskolin stack?

Edited by TVO, 13 August 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[chung_pao]

What is the exact dosage of Zembrin to be taken? It doesn't seem to say in the first page.

I have Zembrin from African Red Tea Rooibos. 1 capsule is 25mg.

I was taking 1 Zembrin in the morning for a while with good results. Recently, after reading Chung Pao's anecdote, I've been trying 1 Artichoke Extract and 1 Zembrin and the results are subjectively pretty good, though not vastly different from Zembrin by itself. I have never tried more than 1 Zembrin at a time.

I agree that it's not vastly different. Combining Artichoke and Zembrin doesn't provide a better PDE-4 inhibition than Zembrin alone. I just feel it cancels out the serotonin somewhat, making it subjectively more productive.

Myself I'm back to consistently using 2-3x500 mg Artichoke extract and Forskolin in the morning. I feel this is more convenient, as cAMP easily gets too high with Zembrin. This routine also seems to have significant effects on testosterone (judging from strength, body-fat, increased social confidence, lidibo, reduced impulsive-inhibition and increased aggressiveness). In theory, this could be due to Artichoke extract's inhibition of PDE-3, 4 and especially 5.
To further enhance this effect I've been using Cold showers in the morning, right after dosing, specifically aiming to apply cold to the testis. (I kid you not! There are studies that show an increase in substrate utilization and steroidogenesis in the Leydig cells following this. And it really seems to work.)

Edited by chung_pao, 14 August 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[channeledfocus]

Cold showers are a great tool. At least finish cold

I tried it today with a lower amount of Phenylalanine (500mg).
1.5 hours after the coffee+stack I had a slump in energy (jawning) but I slept not very well...
Had a green tea then and my focus and energy levels throughout the day have been very stable afterwards.
thanks again for the tip!

[xsiv1]

Ugh. Cold showers are relegated to my pilot light blowing out somehow once in a blue moon and after I'm already wet lol. Otherwise, I might stroke out or something heh.

Riddle me this... subjectively speaking, what difference do you 'feel' when you take Zembrin as opposed to the Artichoke Extract? Is your experience different and exclusive to memory tasks or cognitive processing during a test? I'm interested in the variation between focus, alertness and any other subjective emotions, moods etc.

[channeledfocus]

two general questions to all users:

- has the stack an effect on your sleep?
- does anyone take the stack and is working out on a regular basis while on it (high intensity training etc.)?

[xsiv1]

The stack 'may' have adversely affected my sleep latency when I first started it for a day or two tops. It could have been coincidence since I normally take it by 8am. Nowadays, I can take it on the weekend at 1pm and it will have no deleterious effect on sleep. I work out out on a regular basis (5 days/week) but it's not H.I.T. training per say, if you're referring to the traditional H.I.T. regimen(s). My workouts include 40-45 minutes of interval cardio (with sprints or crazy cycling bursts, interspersed with moderate intervals) followed by weight training. At 41, I've been taking it easy with the weights but still train each body part. I'm not going to failure in the 8 rep range any more though, instead taking my reps up a bit more depending on how I'm feeling. Aside from consistency and hard work, I can't say if my results have anything to do with CILTEP.

[channeledfocus]

- does anyone suffer from jaw tension using the stack?

thanks for that info xsiv1
yes i was referring to failure on the last rep. yesterday i was on the failure rep but somehow was able to push one more out where i could have had never done it in the past, my breath was nasal and very intense and left a chemical (imaginated) taste which i tasted/felt from the nose up into the head (hard to describe)

[researchist]

I believe this is pertinent to the topic of CILTEP. There is a chemical which is a PDE4 inhibitor and induces LTP at a 10 times greater rate than rolipram. Since It is a PDE-4 inhibitor, it could be used as such as a component in CILTEP, but it s LTP effect is profound by itself. I wonder what it would do together. There is a discussion and group buy at http://www.longecity...-and-group-buy/ with more information. I would be very interested in seeing how this works compared to CILTEP or in conjunction with CILTEP. It should have a more pronounced effect and should cost less than the ingredients of CILTEP. I hope it is not inappropriate posting about another thread here but I think it should be of interest to readers of this thread..