2626 replies to this topic

[Vindex]

Does anyone here feel a significant slump on Ciltep off days? I get the sensation (hard to know objectively) that when I don't take the stack I seem to dip below baseline on those area that Ciltep affects me the most, namely motivation, alertness, focus and mood. I've decided to pretty much delegate the weekends to leisurely activities because of this, as studying becomes quite difficult due to increased distractibility and lethargy. Now, distractibility and lethargy have been the bane of my life since ever, and the stack, despite the subtle nature of its effects has had dramatic impact upon my life. I shouldn't even be bitching about this, as during the week I've become somewhat of a workhorse, at least in comparison to my old days.
Even though I stated that I seem to get the impression of a lower than baseline dip when taking a break from Ciltep, I hypothesize that's simply due to the perceptual contrast between the two "states", i.e. on Ciltep/off Ciltep. Alternatively and more wildly speculating I suppose my brain sort of gets used to the "crutches" the Ciltep provides it with and when those get taken away perhaps the psychological self-regulatory mechanisms take a while to catch up. Some minor desensitization could also be the culprit. Then comes monday, it works flawlessly and the day goes by smoothly.
I'm just asking to check if more people experience this.
Some additional misc info:

My Ciltep sweet spot:
10mg forskolin
1g artichoke
50mg caffeine
~12.5mg B6
Pinch of ascorbic acid

During the day I eat as well as my finances allow and take some key minerals.
L-phenylalanine seems to potentiate the effects, though along with anxiety which I dislike.
I've tried galantamine on off days, if anything makes things worse. Tried 4mg last week with the stack just for kicks and it curiously nullified the Ciltep's effects. It's from China, won't take it again.
I've also experimented with Deprenyl based on some anectodes early in the thread. No increased dopaminergic response, apart from huge anxiety when I coupled it with the usual 50mg caffeine.
I'm waiting on ALCAR to experiment with though when taken by itself it never did anything to me.
I'm generally quite unresponsive to nootropics, Ciltep being the exception here. Really marvelous stack, huge thanks to Abelard and everyone who contributed!

[abelard lindsay]

Does anyone here feel a significant slump on Ciltep off days? I get the sensation (hard to know objectively) that when I don't take the stack I seem to dip below baseline on those area that Ciltep affects me the most, namely motivation, alertness, focus and mood. I've decided to pretty much delegate the weekends to leisurely activities because of this, as studying becomes quite difficult due to increased distractibility and lethargy. Now, distractibility and lethargy have been the bane of my life since ever, and the stack, despite the subtle nature of its effects has had dramatic impact upon my life. I shouldn't even be bitching about this, as during the week I've become somewhat of a workhorse, at least in comparison to my old days.
Even though I stated that I seem to get the impression of a lower than baseline dip when taking a break from Ciltep, I hypothesize that's simply due to the perceptual contrast between the two "states", i.e. on Ciltep/off Ciltep. Alternatively and more wildly speculating I suppose my brain sort of gets used to the "crutches" the Ciltep provides it with and when those get taken away perhaps the psychological self-regulatory mechanisms take a while to catch up. Some minor desensitization could also be the culprit. Then comes monday, it works flawlessly and the day goes by smoothly.

When I take days off I usually take a N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine or some L-Phenylalanine in the morning. This usually makes my day go pretty normally, though not as productively as if I had taken CILTEP that day. I attribute the extra nutrient requirement on days off to faster than normal usage of amino acid neurotransmitter pre-cursors due to increased levels of enzymes (e.g tyrosine hydroxylase) due to CILTEP's theorized LTP induction on previous days.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 14 November 2013 - 01:07 AM.

[magta39]

Don't know if you have tried racetams....I take 2 heaping teaspoons of piracetam in the morning of days off from CILTEP

[Vindex]

I have tried piracetam a few years ago and didn't respond to it, at various dosages and with/without choline. But there's still plenty of things I want to try, phenylpiracetam among them, once I get some available monies. Will follow Abelard's advice as well, not sure why I didn't think of that before.
Anyway, it's not too big of a deal, even with all the lethargy on off days I still get 5 awesome days per week. Besides, it doesn't always happen, my brain is a bit random at times. I remember several months ago a post by zrbarnes where he states that all Ciltep does is making him feel at his best on a consistent basis. I strongly agree with that sentiment, so there'll be that odd day where I don't take the stack but am still quite functional. Ciltep takes the randomness out of the equation for me.
Good thing I found out about the stack when I did because I was just about to say fuck it and go with ADHD medication.

And as a bit of advice for novices: don't give up on the stack if it doesn't work for you immediately, give it 2 weeks minimum. There's been times where my supply of forskolin/artichoke has ran out, and upon restarting the stack there's a slow build up of effects, taking up to a week for it to work fully.

Edited by Vindex, 14 November 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Insight]

I'm still trying to catch up with this thread but I'm curious how often people take breaks from Ciltep?

[magta39]

I have tried piracetam a few years ago and didn't respond to it, at various dosages and with/without choline. But there's still plenty of things I want to try, phenylpiracetam among them, once I get some available monies. Will follow Abelard's advice as well, not sure why I didn't think of that before.
Anyway, it's not too big of a deal, even with all the lethargy on off days I still get 5 awesome days per week. Besides, it doesn't always happen, my brain is a bit random at times. I remember several months ago a post by zrbarnes where he states that all Ciltep does is making him feel at his best on a consistent basis. I strongly agree with that sentiment, so there'll be that odd day where I don't take the stack but am still quite functional. Ciltep takes the randomness out of the equation for me.
Good thing I found out about the stack when I did because I was just about to say fuck it and go with ADHD medication.

And as a bit of advice for novices: don't give up on the stack if it doesn't work for you immediately, give it 2 weeks minimum. There's been times where my supply of forskolin/artichoke has ran out, and upon restarting the stack there's a slow build up of effects, taking up to a week for it to work fully.

I take 50 mgs phenylpiracetam occasionally, but I get a mental crash after about 4 hrs, so I only use it when its a short day and I need to be at my best. Yes for me CILTEP also takes the randomness out of my moods and mental clarity. I am only using it every other day....but continuing to experiment.

[Nordmann]

For me, modified b-vitamins have been inconsistent in their effects, with a quick onset of tolerance. (sulbutiamine, picamilon, pyritinol)
However, activated metabolites of b-vitamins have produced good and consistent effects. (p5p, methylfolate, methylcobalamin)

I`ll probably try it out myself, but when you write "quick onset", do you mean chronically for days or at a single dose?

I tried NADH, but the second day I developed some depressive symptoms, I`ll space out the sub-lingual doses. You guys take NADH every day? p5p also? With a b-complex?

I know B6 helps different supplements absorb better, will p5p also contribute to this?

My phenylalanine has run out, but there`s a package on the way. I have some Catuaba laying around, what would recommended doses be for replacing 1500mg phenylalanine?

Have a great weekend guys!

[blood]

Swanson has recently introduced a relatively inexpensive luteolin supplement (containing 50 mg luteolin per cap + 50 mg of rutin to improve bioavailability).

I took a cap yesterday morning, and had increased alertness & a mild headache through most of the day, and insomnia at night.

I took a cap again this morning - the headache is gone.

What can I expect going forward? Does luteolin have a place among nootropics, on it's own, or as part of the ciltep stack?

Edited by blood, 15 November 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[machete234]

Would that work as the artichoke part?
"Standardized to 2.5-5% caffeoylquinic acids"

http://www.healthmon...herbs_artichoke

And maybe this?
Its supposed to have 10mg of Forskolin

http://www.healthmon...h_string=coleus

Is healthmonthly a reliable seller?
has anyone experience with it?

Well, I couldnt wait for a positive response by the others and ordered it, I will let you know when and if it comes. (But Im almost sure its a real shop ect )

I cannot recommend this shop since they ship from the channel islands and not from England, meaning it has to get through customs where it is right now.
Im not driving 50 km for supplements that arent worth the gas.

[Amby]

A ratio of 2:1 Artichoke to Zembrin has effected me the most, when I'm doing Abelard's current stack on the first page, I feel like effects, It could be due to dopamine downregulation from smoking too much pot in the past. Magnesium Theorate seems to help me alot where without it I don't feel the effects too much.

Ok, so I've been taking CILTEP in one form of another for a month or longer. I started with artichoke extract using the details supplied by Abelard at the start of the thread. Initially I had some minor success, but to be honest it could just have been me focusing on what I needed to get down that day (which happens regardless even without being on anything, when the pressure is on.) Ditto with Zembrin.

I upped the Artichoke extract up to 3 tablets and found that worked better, and have now got Forskolin at 7mg instead of the usual 4mg. I plan tomorrow to split the 25mg tab into 3, so about 8mg for the day.

So what's my reasoning behind this? To be honest I'm insanely jealous of you guys that this works perfectly on the recommended amount. I rewatched Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan on Youtube ().Joe's going on about how incredibly sharp you get on modafinil, then Tim discusses how our friends Artichoke extract and forskolin has the same effect without a lot of the risks associated with drug dependence.

So this is what I want. A nootropic experience that makes me mentally so sharp and on my game to strive for awesome results, but without all the bad nasties.

So what have others done who've had negligible results from standard CILTEP? I saw raincheck discussing taking artichoke and zembrin.

Interested in others' experiences on what can get you incredibly sharp where standard CILTEP doesn't deliver the goods.

[Amby]

Didn't know the Youtube vid would embed! Oh well for context, the modafinil/provigil discussion begins at 5:06, gets onto the artichoke extract/forskolin discussion around 10:30.

[raincheck]

A ratio of 2:1 Artichoke to Zembrin has effected me the most, when I'm doing Abelard's current stack on the first page, I feel like effects, It could be due to dopamine downregulation from smoking too much pot in the past. Magnesium Theorate seems to help me alot where without it I don't feel the effects too much.

Ok, so I've been taking CILTEP in one form of another for a month or longer. I started with artichoke extract using the details supplied by Abelard at the start of the thread. Initially I had some minor success, but to be honest it could just have been me focusing on what I needed to get down that day (which happens regardless even without being on anything, when the pressure is on.) Ditto with Zembrin.

I upped the Artichoke extract up to 3 tablets and found that worked better, and have now got Forskolin at 7mg instead of the usual 4mg. I plan tomorrow to split the 25mg tab into 3, so about 8mg for the day.


So this is what I want. A nootropic experience that makes me mentally so sharp and on my game to strive for awesome results, but without all the bad nasties.

So what have others done who've had negligible results from standard CILTEP? I saw raincheck discussing taking artichoke and zembrin.

Interested in others' experiences on what can get you incredibly sharp where standard CILTEP doesn't deliver the goods.

You really should keep some sort of log for emotions, and experiences during ciltep usage. The best way to find your dosage is to design an experiment, the posted regimen by Abelard is really a guideline of where to start. Everyone has unique neurochemistry and people with different environmental factors which will yield different effects (i.e. smoking weed, addictions, MDMA usage etc.) under this regimen - this is my conjecture anyhow.

This CILTEP phenomena started because Abelard logged his progress through Cambridge brain science and through subjective data logging. People who hop on don't realize this entire thing was a process even to this point. Its been a process in order to create the most efficient stack for Abelard and those with similar neurochemistry. Those who don't respond to this stack as well (including myself) should be prudent with this same self-discovery process as the one Abelard undertook at the beginning of this thread. A journal detailing the criteria and metrics of which the stack's performance should be measured by will be helpful in this process.

One suggestion I have for you Amby is to stack with 800 mg of Oxiracetam, I like the one from Rocky Mountain Nootropics.

One thing I don't understand though, is why I don't need to be concerned with increased acetylcholinesterase. As this is choline-related, wouldn't this be more of a concern for those that are sensitive to choline?

Acetylcholinesterase breaks down acetylcholine. I earlier theorized that in many people, including me, it breaks acetylcholine down so much that it leads to the well known 2pm drowsiness that was a problem with earlier versions of the stack. I would always take NALT at 2pm to power through the slump but adding ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin fixed this issue, at least for me. It's possible that if someone was hypersensitive to acetylcholine, they might not need the cholinergic boost that ALCAR provides and the ALCAR might temporarily increase their acetylcholine to unpleasant levels over time.

Good to know Abelard, I'm going to go back to no ALCAR and see if I can make it through the afternoons without getting sleepy.

It seems I have been suffering from high acetylcholine levels.
Sympotoms are listed: http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

Would repeated administration of carbidpa and 5htp combat seratonin depletion long term?

What does this have to do with CILTEP?

"There is an inverse, antagonistic relationship between acetycholine (ACh) and serotonin (SE) in the brain. In other words as the quantity of one increases, the quantity of the other decreases"



"Foods that significantly increase ACh: eggs, fish, soybean products, foods (wide variety) containing lecithin, wheat germ.

Supplements that significantly increase ACh: choline, lecithin, fish oil, flaxseed oil

Other things that increase acetylcholine: MSG (monosodium glutamate), medications, chemicals"

If you're taking foods that increase ACh or fish oils etc, please take that into consideration if you're experiencing depressive states of mind. I isolated my depressive states to my diet in conjunction with this stack and altered accordingly. I will post results after a period of time.


Below is a very informative article on ACh and mood states:

The Role of Acetylcholine Mechanisms in Affective Disorders: http://www.acnp.org/...1000095/CH.html

An interesting tidbit from the link - it seems increased levels of ACh in patients with OCD and certain types of depressed patients increased growth hormone levels.

A number of studies have failed to detect any evidence for cholinergic supersensitivity among patients with anxiety disorders (89).

Pharmacologically induced acetylcholine alterations could cause a "model depression" by perturbing other potential governing neurotransmitters (for example, GABA, serotonin, dopamine, or norepineprine) or second messengers in affect disorder patients. Furthermore, obviously, the fundamental biochemical changes in depression could be due to a relatively low level of central norepineprine or serotonin activity, a situation that could explain all of the above observations under the scope of a balance hypothesis.

If anyone is experiencing depression and think it may be related to nootropics or this stack maybe you should give this article a read to mitigate those risks.

I'm going to order to mucuna, (not the potent concentrated stuff) and see where that gets me.

Edited by raincheck, 18 November 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[vtrader]

Any UK sources of Forskolin. The only one I can find is on amazon and it's the swanson full spectrum brand, it is not an extract just says 400mg root. IS that good enough?

[Neal Cullum]

Any UK sources of Forskolin. The only one I can find is on amazon and it's the swanson full spectrum brand, it is not an extract just says 400mg root. IS that good enough?

Forskolin by Life Extension you can get from amazon. Each capsule contains 10mg so i take half of one, I've bought high mg forskolin previous to that and i found it difficult to try and divide it into small amounts.

[Droplet33]

Any news about the Uridine + Ciltep Combo !?

[relbatnrut]

ALCAR gives me anxiety. Any viable alternatives? (I love this stack, and I only have problems with sleepiness if I take it for a while (3-4 days) without breaks, but it works well enough that I'd like to.

[cat@]

The ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin in the morning is what I added to the stack to fix the 2pm slump.

I took ALCAR 500mg with CILTEP (Natural Stacks) and zonked out an hour or so later (even though my caffeine intake has been upped a great deal). Still groggy at 4pm. I also added fish oil first thing this morning (?). I'll keep ALCAR in mind whenever I'm tempted to use Melatonin.

[deh707]

The ALCAR at 200mg per 1mg forskolin in the morning is what I added to the stack to fix the 2pm slump.

I took ALCAR 500mg with CILTEP (Natural Stacks) and zonked out an hour or so later (even though my caffeine intake has been upped a great deal). Still groggy at 4pm. I also added fish oil first thing this morning (?). I'll keep ALCAR in mind whenever I'm tempted to use Melatonin.

Are you aware that Natural Stacks' CILTEP product has 750mg ALCAR per serving?

If you took 500mg ALCAR with it, then that's 1250mg of ALCAR. Anything over 800mg of ALCAR would cause some irritating drowsiness for me.

Edited by deh707, 21 November 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[cat@]

Are you aware that Natural Stacks' CILTEP product has 750mg ALCAR per serving?

If you took 500mg ALCAR with it, then that's 1250mg of ALCAR. Anything over 800mg of ALCAR would cause some irritating drowsiness for me.

In the post ALCAR age-adjusted dose ranging it mentions 1-4g daily for a 40 yr old (I'm beyond 40).

[Godof Smallthings]

From personal experience, I have also found that more than 800 mg of ALCAR does not do anything positive for me. My optimal dose is 500-600 mg. I am 38.

[magta39]

1000 mgs of ALCAR by itself on empty stomach in morning makes me slow and lethargic, I am 54.

[abelard lindsay]

I figured out the 1mg forskolin to 200mg ALCAR ratio by measuring out bulk ALCAR and finding the minimum dosage that would maintain my paired associates scores an hour after the morning CILTEP and would let me make it through the day without becoming drowsy in the afternoon. Taking ALCAR on its own will have different effects than taking it with CILTEP.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 22 November 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[vtrader]

Tried CILTEP this morning using half a cap of LEX forskolin and 2 Now foods Artichoke caps.
Effects, the wide eye effect awakining like you get with stims. But I did feel slightly light headed for about 30mins. Nothing major just normal energy.As I've mentioned in other threads I need to find a way to do something with the energy otherwise it turns into demotivation and boredom after a few hours. I think this is more of an issue then the supplements I take.

[vtrader]

It's been a few hours now, my mood has turned in to irratation anxiety, pissed off, brain fogged.

[Droplet33]

It's been a few hours now, my mood has turned in to irratation anxiety, pissed off, brain fogged.

I usually take the ciltep stack with Zembrin + 1 NOW Artichoke extract, but i tried in the last 2 days to add another artichoke extract without adding more ALCAR and i also noticed the irritation/pissed off mood at the end of the day. Maybe its a lack of acetyl-choline in the brain? How much ALCAR did you take?

Edited by Droplet33, 23 November 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[vtrader]

I had been using ALCAr before, now it either does not work for me or it just starts anxiety symptoms.

[noos]

I need a forskolin replacement.

Sesamin perhaps?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21896570

These findings indicated that sesamin could stimulate melanogenesis in B16 cells via the up-regulation of MITF and tyrosinase, which was, in turn, due to the activation of cAMP signaling.

Also discussed earlier in the thread:
http://www.longecity...post__p__528646

Thanks
abelard lindsay but sesamin is not available. I mean something synthetic (like modafinil, selegiline, etc).

I read caffeine has phosphodiesterase inhibitory properties. Maybe I can get some effect from coffee (or caffeine)/artichoke, at least minimal but noticeable? I will try it.

[mf6lol5]

Has anyone tried the stack with vasopressin?

[Vindex]

I read caffeine has phosphodiesterase inhibitory properties. Maybe I can get some effect from coffee (or caffeine)/artichoke, at least minimal but noticeable? I will try it.

You'd need to take huge amounts of caffeine for it to start significantly inhibiting PDEs

[chung_pao]

Damn this stack is powerful stuff... Especially in the context of physical exercise.

I usually exercise (fighting or strength training) at 6PM, even if I've taken CILTEP in the morning (2x artichoke).
Sometimes I even add a bit extra forskolin pre-workout because it enhances power output.
The INTERESTING thing is that... On the days I DON'T exercise, my body goes into this sympathetic, high-adrenaline, very aggressive state around the same time that my workouts usually take place.
It's like my body habituates to a stress-response at that particular time, and then replicates it when on days when I don't exercise.

And it's replicable. Every time I do intense exercise on CILTEP, it causes that same sympathetic state to occur the same time of day, the next day.

Anyone notice something similar?
Also, anyone notice mood getting quite irritable later in the day when on ciltep?