46 replies to this topic

[computeTHIS]

After being treated with adderall for ADHD for nearly 2 years, my psychiatrist agreed to let me try selegiline. The rebound effects of adderall became unberable, even at 5mg doses (I resisted going up in dosing) the withdrawl symptoms made my ADHD indistinguishable from depression. It took 2 weeks for the rebound effects to subside, at which time I began treatment with 5mg/day (oral) selegiline. The effects were noticeable within the same day. The first few days I felt a wonderful dopamine high, the "high" feeling went away but I've still never felt more "normal" in the last ~7 years. Feelings of anxiety, depression, anhedonia, and even the ADHD-related lack of motivation/concentration have all gone away. Even muscle reflexivity is noticeably restored when playing sports.

For those wondering why selegiline may be ideal for ADD/ADHD, I would surmise that the MAO-B inhibitor allows dopamine to build up to it's appropriate levels, and dopamine is a precursor to norepinephrine and epinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine) so the necessary "feelings of motivation" are restored. In fact, I would insist that things like selegiline be a first-line treatment for ADD/ADHD rather than stimulants (see http://biopsychiatry.com and www.selegiline.com) but I fear it will take a long time for conventional psychiatry to change, which I think is being heavily influenced by the interests of pharmaceutical companies rather than real health benefits or treatments that save patients money in the long term. The risks of taking an MAO-B inhibitor like selegiline have proven mostly nonexistent, at least while the dosing is kept at MAO-B selective levels. That said, I look forward to trying rasagiline when it goes off-patent this coming February. The only negative side effect I report for selegiline is the vasoconstrictive feeling associated with the l-methamphetamine metabolite, but that seems to be going away as I continue dosing.

Adderall acts by directly stimulating the release of dopamine and norepinephrine while inhibiting their reuptake. I've noticed that medications acting on norepinephrine (like Atomoxetine) often have some nasty side effects like depression or decreased libido. I further believe stimulants and most "scheduled" medications have limited long-term usability. That said, adderall was the ultimate productivity pill, known as "go-pills" in the military, the legendary mathematician Paul Erdos attests to its use. Ultimately, I think social-behavioral problems in our society have promoted the use of stimulants like adderall rather than medical conditions like ADHD. I have little interest in trying the racetams after using adderall. I tried Huperzine-A which had roughly 1/20th the feeling of adderall, and like adderall it left me in a negative mental state once it left my system. The negative mental state was remedied with tianeptine (see below).

After establishing a 1.3 week baseline of selegiline, I decided to try tianeptine after reading www.tianeptine.com. The onset was so smooth it was barely noticeable, I felt both stimulated and relaxed after ~30 minutes, during which time I was very productive. After roughly 4-6 hours, I noticed feelings of absolute excitement at just the thought of some completed goals. No ill side effects were noticed. I hypothesize that reports of drowsiness or sleepiness are due to tianeptine also enhancing the reuptake of melatonin. Prior to using selegiline I had a severely disrupted sleep pattern which did not normalize while on selegiline. After using tianeptine just one time I actually felt tired at the onset of darkness later that day, which was a major breakthough for my sleep pattern. I do not recommend taking tianeptine before going to bed though, the stimulant effect makes it difficult to sleep when your thoughts make you "elated". Furthermore, I would recommend only taking tianeptine as-needed, that is, when feeling the effects of stress, sadness, or depression. I feel no effect whatsoever after taking tianeptine when I already feel perfectly fine. The absence of tianeptine in the American markets seems to illustrate flawed concepts of drug control and pharmaceutical development in the US.

My physiology:
I'm a 27 year old white male with a reasonably high metabolism, and I traditionally respond well to low-dose medicines.

[Raptor87]

It will be great to hear your long term report on selegeline. I myself am thinking of trying the drug. Im just so damn scared about antidepressants these days after my bout with SSRI´s.

Whats your current dosage?

[unregistered_user]

I've been taking Selegiline daily for the past month. It's tough to really articulate the effects I'm feeling from it but I think in a subtle way, it helps with focus and motivation. I take about 5mg per day, sometimes more. I also suffer from ADHD and think that Deprenyl, for some anyway, might be a sustainable way to wrangle some of the symptoms under control. I also gave it to my mom who suffers from clinical depression and she acknowledges that it helps control some of her depressive thinking. It isn't going to hit you like a ton of bricks but it will, with a refined subtlety, ameliorate some symptoms of ADHD and depression.

[computeTHIS]

My current dosage is 5mg/day with tablets. I could probably take 10mg and still be safe at MAO-B selective levels, but really, 5mg is enough to keep me feeling fine, so why change it? In addition, all activities causing dopamine release become amplified, like any kind of sports (especially running) and even certain foods. Chocolate (real, not the fake stuff), gives me a high feeling because it's breakdown is inhibited. So you can see why I would recommend this for problems associated with anhedonia. But I admit that ADHD and depression are complex, having both complex causes and widely differing symptoms, so your mileage may vary.

I would highly recommend that anyone taking selegiline should stay to a strict daily regimen to reap it's benefits, and watch closely what other things you take with it as they may counteract it's effects.

I am incredibly impressed with tianeptine, if taken in a situation that could normally cause adverse effects it simply does nothing. If taken under a stressful or a maintained negative mental state it works wonders. It would have been so unfortunate for it to have completely disappeared.

[unregistered_user]

How long does Stablon take to work? Are its effects felt immediately or is there a ramping up period as with most antidepressants?

[nito]

How long does Stablon take to work? Are its effects felt immediately or is there a ramping up period as with most antidepressants?

I felt it from day 2. I felt super relaxed and the constant stomach butterflies i used to have disappeared. They could appear while eating, watching tv or playing computer games, randomly. I also felt less depressed, and more optimistic over life. Over time however you build a tolerance to it, and now im taking it slowly. Going to make another order soon.

[computeTHIS]

I feel it in 15-30 minutes. At the very least I would say that it's action seems nicely anxiolytic, and it seems impossible to maintain a negative mental state while on it. The duration of one pill seems to be about 4 hours.

Interestingly, my psych once recommended buproprion but I declined the idea of taking more stimulants. I've found a smattering of reports that buproprion with selegiline makes the irritability and anxiety aspects less problematic than with buproprion alone. See http://www.mindandmu...pride-bupropion, http://www.springerl...5756125qwv7103/, and one fellow found selegiline + buproprion + tianeptine to work wonderfully: http://www.mindandmu...ion-tianeptine.

[computeTHIS]

How long does Stablon take to work? Are its effects felt immediately or is there a ramping up period as with most antidepressants?

I feel it within 15-30 minutes. At the very least it seems nicely anxiolytic, and it seems to make it impossible to maintain a negative mental state. One pill seems to last for 4 hours. One reason that I will only take it as-needed is to keep from building up a resistance to it. However, findings seem to show that it demonstrates no effects of dependence or tolerance: http://www.tianeptin...ate-users.html. According the wikipedia page it takes a 2 week period, I think this is probably due to it's incredible smoothness - many people will probably not notice it's onset immediately, it's nothing like the stronger stimulant medication.

Interestingly, my psych once recommended that I take buproprion but I declined the idea of taking more stimulants after being on adderall. I've found a smattering of reports that buproprion with selegiline make buproprion's irritability and anxiety effects less of a problem. See http://www.mindandmu...pride-bupropion, http://www.springerl...5756125qwv7103/, and even one fellow found selegiline + buproprion + tianeptine to be a good combination: http://www.mindandmu...ion-tianeptine.

[thedevinroy]

If you could rate it as a fraction of the effectiveness of Adderall for ADHD, what percentage would it be?

[lourdaud]

Wtf, this sounds too good to be true!
What's the cons with Selegiline and Tianeptine? As there have to be at least some, right?
How do they affect health and longevity, in comparison to stimulants? Any possible brain deterioration long-term?
Would they safely mix with racetams, or is there any risk for excitotoxicity?

[thedevinroy]

Wtf, this sounds too good to be true!
What's the cons with Selegiline and Tianeptine? As there have to be at least some, right?
How do they affect health and longevity, in comparison to stimulants? Any possible brain deterioration long-term?
Would they safely mix with racetams, or is there any risk for excitotoxicity?

As for cons, they both can cause sleepiness. Tianeptine is a tricyclic, sortof, so it will be sedating for the first month or so. Selegiline raises serotonin levels (very indirectly), so that can in turn make one sleepy as well for the first few days or so. However, they both have lower side effect profiles than most other drugs in or around the same classes of psychotropics, especially at nootropic doses.

All psychotropics have side effects. Read about them here: Selegiline | Tianeptine

[computeTHIS]

How long does Stablon take to work? Are its effects felt immediately or is there a ramping up period as with most antidepressants?

I feel it in 15-30 minutes, however the wikipedia page says to give it 2 weeks for it's onset of action. I suspect that is because the action is such a smooth transition many people will not notice it immediately. At minimum, it's nicely anxiolytic, and it makes it nearly impossible to maintain a negative mental state. One pill seems to be good for roughly 4 hours.

If you could rate it as a fraction of the effectiveness of Adderall for ADHD, what percentage would it be?

Rate what, selegiline as a fraction of adderall? I feel as though selegiline completely addresses my issues with ADHD without the negative effects of adderall. Adderall had to be dosed 3 times a day to mitigate the rebound effects, selegiline is just one pill a day with no noticeable decline of action. For stressful situations, or tasks which may cause anxiety (such as tests) I've found that tianeptine fills in the gaps where adderall was the ultimate motivator. Additionally, my psych once suggested buproprion which I declined because of my prior experience with adderall. However, I've found a smattering of reports on the net where selegiline + buproprion is much more tolerable than with buproprion by itself. One person successfully reported taking selegiline + buproprion + tianeptine (on the Mind & Muscle forum) to address his issue. I'm forgoing the links because my prior posts were withheld, which I suspect is due to linking other pages.

Wtf, this sounds too good to be true!
What's the cons with Selegiline and Tianeptine? As there have to be at least some, right?
How do they affect health and longevity, in comparison to stimulants? Any possible brain deterioration long-term?
Would they safely mix with racetams, or is there any risk for excitotoxicity?

I suggest reading my links in the very first post, particularly biopsychiatry.com, selegiline.com, and tianeptine.com for health and longevity studies. At my dosages I find no cons with these meds. These are not stimulants, and from my point of view most stimulants are not as good for health and longevity due to higher rates of axon damage. And as far as I know, there is no credible "dopamine syndrome" as there is a "serotonin syndrome".

[Healthy Tony]

Stablon is by far one of the best meds I have tried. It provides me with an overall lowering of anxiety and negative thoughts and has also had some pleasant sexual side effects. I even noticed the effects after the second dose.

[nito]

Stablon is by far one of the best meds I have tried. It provides me with an overall lowering of anxiety and negative thoughts and has also had some pleasant sexual side effects. I even noticed the effects after the second dose.

pleasant sexual side effects? have u noticed the tolerance or its still working fine?

[computeTHIS]

Stablon is by far one of the best meds I have tried. It provides me with an overall lowering of anxiety and negative thoughts and has also had some pleasant sexual side effects. I even noticed the effects after the second dose.

pleasant sexual side effects? have u noticed the tolerance or its still working fine?

While I can't necessarily corroborate the sexual side effects, I will say that serotonergic experiences do seem more intense, like listening to music or reading something dramatic. Also, according to tianeptine.com/opiate-users.html it doesn't exhibit potential for neither abuse nor tolerance. It feels the same to me every time I take it, the experience differs though in that it depends on which things you experience that might stimulate serotonin, in my opinion.

[Healthy Tony]

I have only been taking it twice daily for a month, but thus far I have noticed no tolerance. As for the sexual side effects, I tend to have incredibly weak and virtually nonexistant orgasms, but stablon has been very helpful in changing that.

[thedevinroy]

Rate what, selegiline as a fraction of adderall? I feel as though selegiline completely addresses my issues with ADHD without the negative effects of adderall. Adderall had to be dosed 3 times a day to mitigate the rebound effects, selegiline is just one pill a day with no noticeable decline of action. For stressful situations, or tasks which may cause anxiety (such as tests) I've found that tianeptine fills in the gaps where adderall was the ultimate motivator. Additionally, my psych once suggested buproprion which I declined because of my prior experience with adderall. However, I've found a smattering of reports on the net where selegiline + buproprion is much more tolerable than with buproprion by itself. One person successfully reported taking selegiline + buproprion + tianeptine (on the Mind & Muscle forum) to address his issue. I'm forgoing the links because my prior posts were withheld, which I suspect is due to linking other pages.

Thanks! Yes, like if Adderall were a 10 for effectiveness, what would Selegiline be?

I'm only asking because you are the only person that says it addresses their ADHD issues completely, and I just want to narrow down any overlapping themes. One theme I want to rule out of your case was subtlety of effectiveness, which you seem to not report. Your report sounds affirmative, direct, and conclusive. You report it almost as a cure for ADHD, while others have said things along the lines of "I suppose it helps... in a subtle way."

If you rate it against other typical ADHD treatments, I can get a vague idea to tell my psychiatrist. For instance, if you rate it at half the effectiveness of Adderall, then that is very significant, because Adderall was too strong. Modafinil barely touched on my symptoms, maybe 1/5 as effective as Adderall. Strattera (atomoxetine) was 7/10 as effective as Adderall. Nortriptyline doesn't seem to be working. Concerta (methylphenidate) was 9/10 as effective as Adderall. Hordenine + DMAA combo was about 1/2 as effective as Adderall... and so on...

BTW, do not take Modafinil with Buproprion. Modafinil induces an enzyme that breaks down buproprion. I learned that after I said it didn't work, so I'll never know for sure. All I know is that its anticholinergic properties were too much for my working memory, and I suffered from terrible recall. Most people don't, but I've always struggled in this area without the help of choline supplementation. I tried to outweigh it with Huperzine and Lecithin, but had no success.

Edited by devinthayer, 30 September 2011 - 03:49 PM.

[PurpleCow]

I find that regular dextroamphetamine (not Adderall) works well if you stick to the same dosage and dosing times consistently. This is just me, but every third or fourth day I use two squirts of Desmopressin to restore what amphetamine depletes. I have to be cautious to not drink a lot of water on those days. The Desmopressin restores the sharpness that you experience when first taking amphetamine. The key is to follow the prescription of dextroamphetamine exactly and to not use too much Desmopressin. If you have a prescription of Adderall and have had headaches it is probably due to the L-Amphetamine (decongestant effects), and this should be enough reason for your physician to switch you to plain dextroamphetamine.

I find that depression can be relieved with, believe it or not, Idebenone, 90mg to 180mg three times per day and two to three grams of Tryptophan on a very empty stomach before bed. If this does not do the trick then add a moderate amount of a GABA-b agonist at bed time (not alcohol) should do the trick. A moderate to small amount is the key here.

Throwing a "tam" in during the day always helps. I would recommend Piracetam, but find that Pramiracetam works better, but it is unnecessary in treating the ADHD, Depression and anxiety.

Another important note, I have read abstracts that detail how SSRI's cut of signalling to the Amygdala. Upon cessation of these drugs, this may explain why some people suddenly have a panic attack after a solid wash out. The signalling to the Amygdala must start back up with a vengeance. Just wanted to throw that out there for everyone.

Edited by PurpleCow, 30 September 2011 - 04:47 PM.

[computeTHIS]

Thanks! Yes, like if Adderall were a 10 for effectiveness, what would Selegiline be?

I'm only asking because you are the only person that says it addresses their ADHD issues completely, and I just want to narrow down any overlapping themes. One theme I want to rule out of your case was subtlety of effectiveness, which you seem to not report. Your report sounds affirmative, direct, and conclusive. You report it almost as a cure for ADHD, while others have said things along the lines of "I suppose it helps... in a subtle way."

If you rate it against other typical ADHD treatments, I can get a vague idea to tell my psychiatrist. For instance, if you rate it at half the effectiveness of Adderall, then that is very significant, because Adderall was too strong. Modafinil barely touched on my symptoms, maybe 1/5 as effective as Adderall. Strattera (atomoxetine) was 7/10 as effective as Adderall. Nortriptyline doesn't seem to be working. Concerta (methylphenidate) was 9/10 as effective as Adderall. Hordenine + DMAA combo was about 1/2 as effective as Adderall... and so on...

BTW, do not take Modafinil with Buproprion. Modafinil induces an enzyme that breaks down buproprion. I learned that after I said it didn't work, so I'll never know for sure. All I know is that its anticholinergic properties were too much for my working memory, and I suffered from terrible recall. Most people don't, but I've always struggled in this area without the help of choline supplementation. I tried to outweigh it with Huperzine and Lecithin, but had no success.

Well, I would give Adderall a 6/10 for ADHD, due to the amphetamine side effects and duration of action, even if I did feel like Superman while on it. I would give selegiline no less than a 9/10. My ADHD problems are primarily with motivation, lethary, and duration of concentration. Somehow, having increased dopamine levels helps me with all of these things. I suspect my problem was being exacerbated with Adderall, in that it's over-stimulation of dopamine and norepinephrine was causing the under-production of dopamine while Adderall left my system. I cannot express enough how terrible the chemical imbalance of dopamine and/or serotonin truly was. Selegiline seems more "natural" in that dopamine is allowed to build up rather than be produced in excess, and I see no long-term advantages in stimulating the over-production of dopamine or norepinephrine. PurpleCow's suggestion is a much better alternative to Adderall from what I've heard.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I suspect I came to this point due to neural remodeling under circumstances of constant stress and anxiety. Tianeptine does seem to offer a way to reverse this damage: http://www.tianeptin...ic-atrophy.html, and http://www.tianeptin...-amygdala.html.

[unregistered_user]

Are there any risks associated with taking Stablon and Deprenyl concurrently?

[computeTHIS]

Thanks! Yes, like if Adderall were a 10 for effectiveness, what would Selegiline be?

I'm only asking because you are the only person that says it addresses their ADHD issues completely, and I just want to narrow down any overlapping themes. One theme I want to rule out of your case was subtlety of effectiveness, which you seem to not report. Your report sounds affirmative, direct, and conclusive. You report it almost as a cure for ADHD, while others have said things along the lines of "I suppose it helps... in a subtle way."

If you rate it against other typical ADHD treatments, I can get a vague idea to tell my psychiatrist. For instance, if you rate it at half the effectiveness of Adderall, then that is very significant, because Adderall was too strong. Modafinil barely touched on my symptoms, maybe 1/5 as effective as Adderall. Strattera (atomoxetine) was 7/10 as effective as Adderall. Nortriptyline doesn't seem to be working. Concerta (methylphenidate) was 9/10 as effective as Adderall. Hordenine + DMAA combo was about 1/2 as effective as Adderall... and so on...

BTW, do not take Modafinil with Buproprion. Modafinil induces an enzyme that breaks down buproprion. I learned that after I said it didn't work, so I'll never know for sure. All I know is that its anticholinergic properties were too much for my working memory, and I suffered from terrible recall. Most people don't, but I've always struggled in this area without the help of choline supplementation. I tried to outweigh it with Huperzine and Lecithin, but had no success.

Duely noted on the Modafinil and Bupropion. I would give Adderall a 6/10 for effectiveness, due to it's amphetamine side effects and duration of action, even if it did make me feel like superman while it lasted. I would give selegiline no less than a 9/10. Adderall had to be dosed 3 times a day to mitigate it's rebound effects, while selegiline is only 1 pill a day. My problems with ADHD are primarily with motivation, lethargy, and duration of concentration. Somehow increased dopamine levels help with this. I think Adderall exacerbated the problem with my dopamine levels, in that the stimulated production caused marked under-production when Adderall left my system - making me fee like crap. I cannot express how terrible the chemical imbalance of dopamine/serotonin truly felt. Selegiline is a bit more natural in that dopamine is allowed to build up rather than be over-produced.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I suspect that my condition arose from prolonged exposure to circumstances of stress and anxiety which caused neural remodeling. Tianeptine seems to offer the possibility of reversing these effects: tianeptine.com/dendritic-atrophy.html

Both repeated stress and corticosterone administration induce remodeling of apical dendrites of hippocampal CA3 pyramidal neurons. Circulating glucocorticoids are involved in the mechanism that produces atrophy, along with excitatory amino acids and serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT). We used 5-HT-related antidepressants and a benzodiazepine in order to explore indirectly the role of serotonin and GABA(A)-benzodiazepine receptors in the stress-induced structural changes visualized by the Golgi impregnation of the rat hippocampus. The 5-HT reuptake enhancer (+/-)-tianeptine prevented the dendritic atrophy caused by repeated restraint stress in a non-stereoselective fashion and two 5-HT reuptake antagonists, fluoxetine and fluvoxamine, failed to block dendritic atrophy. Tianeptine also functions as a therapeutic tool since it reversed the already established hippocampal atrophy caused by treatment with corticosterone for 3 weeks. Finally, the benzodiazepine agonist adinazolam was effective in preventing the stress-induced dendritic atrophy. These findings suggest that the synaptic availability of 5-HT is involved in the mechanism leading to stress-induced dendritic remodeling and supports the idea that the hippocampal inhibitory GABAergic tone may play a regulatory role.

→ source (external link)

and tianeptine.com/hippocampus-amygdala.htm

The hippocampal formation, which expresses high levels of adrenal steroid receptors, is a malleable brain structure that is important for certain types of learning and memory. This structure is also vulnerable to the effects of stress hormones which have been reported to be increased in depressed patients, particularly those with severe depression. The amygdala, a structure that plays a critical role in fear learning, is also an important target of anxiety and stress. Certain animal models of depression involve application of repeated stress. Repeated stress promotes behavioral changes that can be associated with these two brain structures such as impairment of hippocampus-dependent memory and enhancement of fear and aggression, which are likely to reflect amygdala function. At a cellular level, opposite responses in the hippocampus and amygdala are observed, namely, shrinkage of dendrites in hippocampus and growth of dendrites in the lateral amygdala, involving in both cases a remodeling of dendrites. Furthermore, stress-induced suppression of neurogenesis has been noted in dentate gyrus. At a molecular level, the effects of repeated stress in the hippocampus involve excitatory amino acids and the induction of the glial form of the glutamate transporter. Chronic treatment with the antidepressant tianeptine may prevent these effects in hippocampus and amygdala.

→ source (external link)

Sorry for my delayed responses, they keep getting withheld by the moderators for including links.

Are there any risks associated with taking Stablon and Deprenyl concurrently?

No, in fact, Tianeptine has historically been preferred for both it's low side effect profile and it's extraordinary lack of interactions. (see it's wiki page and tianeptine.com)

[computeTHIS]

Thanks! Yes, like if Adderall were a 10 for effectiveness, what would Selegiline be?

I'm only asking because you are the only person that says it addresses their ADHD issues completely, and I just want to narrow down any overlapping themes. One theme I want to rule out of your case was subtlety of effectiveness, which you seem to not report. Your report sounds affirmative, direct, and conclusive. You report it almost as a cure for ADHD, while others have said things along the lines of "I suppose it helps... in a subtle way."

If you rate it against other typical ADHD treatments, I can get a vague idea to tell my psychiatrist. For instance, if you rate it at half the effectiveness of Adderall, then that is very significant, because Adderall was too strong. Modafinil barely touched on my symptoms, maybe 1/5 as effective as Adderall. Strattera (atomoxetine) was 7/10 as effective as Adderall. Nortriptyline doesn't seem to be working. Concerta (methylphenidate) was 9/10 as effective as Adderall. Hordenine + DMAA combo was about 1/2 as effective as Adderall... and so on...

BTW, do not take Modafinil with Buproprion. Modafinil induces an enzyme that breaks down buproprion. I learned that after I said it didn't work, so I'll never know for sure. All I know is that its anticholinergic properties were too much for my working memory, and I suffered from terrible recall. Most people don't, but I've always struggled in this area without the help of choline supplementation. I tried to outweigh it with Huperzine and Lecithin, but had no success.

Duely noted on the Modafinil and Bupropion. I would give Adderall a 6/10 for effectiveness, due to it's amphetamine side effects and duration of action, even if it did make me feel like superman while it lasted. I would give selegiline no less than a 9/10. Adderall had to be dosed 3 times a day to mitigate it's rebound effects, while selegiline is only 1 pill a day. My problems with ADHD are primarily with motivation, lethargy, and duration of concentration. Somehow increased dopamine levels help with this. I think Adderall exacerbated the problem with my dopamine levels, in that the stimulated production caused marked under-production when Adderall left my system - making me fee like crap. I cannot express how terrible the chemical imbalance of dopamine/serotonin truly felt. Selegiline is a bit more natural in that dopamine is allowed to build up rather than be over-produced.

I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and I suspect that my condition arose from prolonged exposure to circumstances of stress and anxiety which caused neural remodeling. Tianeptine seems to offer the possibility of reversing these effects: tianeptine.com/dendritic-atrophy.html, and tianeptine.com/hippocampus-amygdala.htm

Sorry for my delayed responses, they keep getting withheld by the moderators for including links.

Are there any risks associated with taking Stablon and Deprenyl concurrently?

No, in fact, Tianeptine has historically been preferred for both it's low side effect profile and it's extraordinary lack of interactions. (see it's wiki page and tianeptine.com)

[thedevinroy]

Huh I post a lot links. I also have over 300 posts, so that might help...

[thedevinroy]

Oh and thank you very much for your opinions. I will note that. Adderall was overkill for me as well. I didn't take the XR either, so I was popping pills every meal time. If I missed a dose, I might as well have taken a sleeping pill instead. Lights out. I felt so absolutely drugged. I only took 1/4 dose and that was more than enough. Yes, I cut those tiny blue pills into nerd-sided chunks. It was just too intense, and it overcorrected the problem to where I had hyperfocus even worse.

Yeah Modafinil is cool, don't get me wrong - I loved it. I loved it because I didn't need a nap during the day, and I didn't nod off while driving. Basically, it was great for what it was meant for - keeping you awake. It wasn't strong enough as an ADHD medication. I read the information on the doses for ADHD, and they were up to 450mg! I took 100mg just to take sleepiness away. One day I tried 400mg and felt insane, almost like Adderall.

Buproprion just wasn't strong at all. The first day it felt like a light coffee buzz, but it was unnoticeable after that first day. Again, that probably was an interaction with the Modafinil, but whatever, doesn't matter now. Anticholinergics aren't my thing.

Edited by devinthayer, 02 October 2011 - 01:17 AM.

[computeTHIS]

Awesome, thanks for the info on Modafinil. I considered asking my psych about it but after a thorough amount of reading I decided against it. I look forward to trying Bupropion though, I'm thinking Selegiline + Bupropion +/- Tianeptine may in fact be the ideal combination. While I feel restored motivation and concentration, there's a certain drive or aggressiveness that hasn't quite come back since I first started treatment with Adderall. I speak of the kind of drive to succeed in the face of great adversity, rather than to perform with a sort of robotic apathy to the impending outcome.

Even so, I'm still questioning the efficacy of long-term use of a stimulant like Bupropion. This really comes from my prior experience with Adderall.

[sam7777]

I only took six doses of bupropion generic. I really noticed nothing, maybe even side effects. My symptoms are pretty severe though. Really I do not even have depression or add. I am like borderline narcoleptic/adrenal fatigue/CFS, so I rarely "feel" much of anything. I have had luck with herbal supplements though, which helped me understand how I should feel vs how I do 93% of the time. This made me that much more so aware I have no depression. It is not depression. It is a total lack of brain power or IQ. Something for the rest of you to think about. Yea we do all wonder how this condition arises.

Depreynl does sound ok, granted I am pretty adverse to the idea of a nootropic to make up for a health problem. Obviously Adderall typifies why relying on nootropics in lue of a health problem is such a vicous cycle of poor results.

I often wondered if somehow poor circulation and metabolism of the brain played a part of the symptoms. Sadly even after 4 months of research I could not break a lot of ground.

I wonder how many folks on this nootropic board get MRI's of their brain. I really think I might have some physical problems.

[thedevinroy]

...While I feel restored motivation and concentration, there's a certain drive or aggressiveness that hasn't quite come back since I first started treatment with Adderall. I speak of the kind of drive to succeed in the face of great adversity, rather than to perform with a sort of robotic apathy to the impending outcome...

Do you mean to say this drive is an effect from Adderall, an effect missing while on Adderall, or an effect you have lost since taking Adderall?

[Delta Gamma]

I really don't understand why everyone here loses their minds over selegiline and other MAO-B inhibitors, MAO-B is mainly present in subcortical structures, not the PFC. Lower levels of DA and NE are consistantly seen in the PFC of ADHD individuals and in the PFC its mainly COMT and the NE transporter which remove them from the synaptic cleft. Granted almost everyone on this board seems to have some bizarre treatment-resistant form of ADHD-PI so it might be working through a different pathway than most.

If its working for you sweet, but the science points to COMT being by far the more relevant target.

[thedevinroy]

Treatment resistant ADHD could be from an atypical form of ADHD. ADHD I believe to be a 95% genetic factor. Some think it has to do with a variant of the D4 receptor: D4.7. Predominantly hyperactive type is thought to be the D4.7 variant. Others think it has to do with a repeat in the DAT transporter gene. I even saw one study that said there was a correlation with a variation in an NMDA gene. I believe a saw a Chinese study found a correlation with MAO gene repeat(s).

Would there be a way to tell if it is a repeat in the MAO-B gene, COMT, or NET? Possibly a symptom that was different? (perhaps depression, lethargy, daytime sleepiness, etc.) Repeats of those genes would more or less have the same result on the blood levels: more dopamine and norepinephrine metabolites (as opposed to their active forms). A fraction of dopamine and norepinephrine do re-enter cells after being transported outside, especially in older folks whose BBB is a little thinner, so that could be why some have increased focus and decreased hyperfocus.

Edited by devinthayer, 03 October 2011 - 06:15 PM.

[computeTHIS]

...While I feel restored motivation and concentration, there's a certain drive or aggressiveness that hasn't quite come back since I first started treatment with Adderall. I speak of the kind of drive to succeed in the face of great adversity, rather than to perform with a sort of robotic apathy to the impending outcome...

Do you mean to say this drive is an effect from Adderall, an effect missing while on Adderall, or an effect you have lost since taking Adderall?

I felt like this was an effect caused by Adderall, whose rebound effects amplified my symptoms of lethargy. I think now that I'm on selegiline what I really need is good cardiovascular exercise to improve circulation and stimulate the right chemicals, so to speak.