21 replies to this topic

[ViolettVol]

I recently read that *gasp* my collagen production started declining when I turned 21, so i've been wondering if it owuldn't bea good Idea to make a thread listing all the stuff one can do that promotes increased collagen production or even links to articles about research about what the future may hold in that regard.
Here is what I found out so far, it most likel;y has mistakes and lots of info is lacking so please add to it as much as you can
-diet: rich in green vegetables, kale, spinach, broccoli, fish (salmon/herring)
-no alcohol or smoking
-healthy amounts of exercise
-avoiding inflammation
-supplements: cetain amino-acids:l-ornithine among them, omega 3, gellatin???
-topical treatments with retin a, vit c serum
-skin needling
-laser /radiotherapy resurfacing?

Thats what I've gahthered so far in my travels over various internet forums

Please feel free to correct/add, I know there's a lot I'm missing or might have misunderstood.
Your help is very much appreciated:)

[niner]

-supplements: cetain amino-acids:l-ornithine among them, omega 3, gellatin???

Good list, Violett. Gelatin contains all of the amino acids in collagen, because gelatin IS collagen that has been broken apart into its component amino acids, mostly in the form of short peptides. Because gelatin has the right amino acids in the correct ratios, and is also very inexpensive relative to the pure amino acids, I would just use gelatin and skip the other amino acids and overpriced "hydrolyzed collagen" supplements. I use gelatin myself, in fact. However, there is a fair amount of research showing that arginine or ornithine result in more collagen deposition during wound healing. I don't know if this would translate into improving already-intact skin, because that's a different situation.

The omega 3 in your supplement list isn't involved in collagen building as far as I'm aware, but serves to balance your levels of pro- and anti-inflammatory mediators. Essentially it will reduce inflammation levels, which is good.

There's more to collagen creation than amino acids; you also need bioavailable silicon. There are two kinds that I like; BioSil and JarrowSil. Of these, BioSil has actual published data behind it. JarrowSil is a decent formulation that ought to work. There are some other silica supplements that I've heard do not have good bioavailability. Beer is a good source of silicon. I would modify the alcohol avoidance part of the list to allow an occasional beer.

Another thing that will enhance collagen production is alpha or beta hydroxy acid topicals, like glycolic acid and a million others. These can be very effective over time.

You missed the most important one of all: Wear a UVA-blocking sunscreen every day!

[ViolettVol]

-supplements: cetain amino-acids:l-ornithine among them, omega 3, gellatin???

Good list, Violett. Gelatin contains all of the amino acids in collagen, because gelatin IS collagen that has been broken apart into its component amino acids, mostly in the form of short peptides. Because gelatin has the right amino acids in the correct ratios, and is also very inexpensive relative to the pure amino acids, I would just use gelatin and skip the other amino acids and overpriced "hydrolyzed collagen" supplements. I use gelatin myself, in fact. However, there is a fair amount of research showing that arginine or ornithine result in more collagen deposition during wound healing. I don't know if this would translate into improving already-intact skin, because that's a different situation.

The omega 3 in your supplement list isn't involved in collagen building as far as I'm aware, but serves to balance your levels of pro- and anti-inflammatory mediators. Essentially it will reduce inflammation levels, which is good.

There's more to collagen creation than amino acids; you also need bioavailable silicon. There are two kinds that I like; BioSil and JarrowSil. Of these, BioSil has actual published data behind it. JarrowSil is a decent formulation that ought to work. There are some other silica supplements that I've heard do not have good bioavailability. Beer is a good source of silicon. I would modify the alcohol avoidance part of the list to allow an occasional beer.

Another thing that will enhance collagen production is alpha or beta hydroxy acid topicals, like glycolic acid and a million others. These can be very effective over time.

You missed the most important one of all: Wear a UVA-blocking sunscreen every day!

tHANKS SO MUCH FOR THE INFOR
AND COULD SOMEONE RECOMMEND A
TRUSTWORTHy ONLINE SOURCE OF GELLATIN AND BIOSIL IM FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY SO I HAVE TO ORDER IT ABROAD
MAMY THANKS!

[mustardseed41]

Nice list. I've started Dermarolling recently and believe it is highly beneficial.

[mustardseed41]

Copper Peptides

[okok]

Gelatin - i've read that has zilch bioavailability?

[rwac]

Gelatin - i've read that has zilch bioavailability?

Where did you get that? It's basically protein....

[Luminosity]

I think my silicon is from Jarrow. It's a white plastic squeeze bottle with a wine colored label. I like it and I like Jarrow.

Vitamin C is needed for collagen. Camu Camu capsules by Amazon Therapeutics are a good naturally sourced Vitamin C. It is just powdered camu camu berries which are super high in C.

I think that putting cooled green tea on the skin with a cotton ball is good for the skin if it agrees with you, and adds an extra layer of sunscreen under whatever sunscreen you use. Just let it dry before putting on sunscreen.

Eating lots of fruits and vegetables helps your skin as do foods high in Vitamin C.

In Chinese medicine, avoiding cold foods and drinks is good for your health and appearance. They would advise to heat a hot breakfast with a hot drink and let cold foods come up to room temperature.

Exercising helps your body to regenerate. The increased blood and oxygen are good for your appearance. Try not to over-exercise because that leads to its own problems. Moderate, safe exercises are the most sustainable.

Although a good idea, there are a lot of questions and concerns regarding sunscreens. I would try to wear hats, visors, sunglasses and long sleeves as much as possible when in the sun. Seeking out shade is also a good idea. Broad-brimmed hats give more protection than short-brimmed ones.

Edited by Luminosity, 30 September 2011 - 12:52 AM.

[okok]

Gelatin - i've read that has zilch bioavailability?

Where did you get that? It's basically protein....

My fault, should have taken the time to read the wiki entry instead of relying on some bodybuilding forum. It's high in non-essential amino-acids and lacks essential ones though.

[rwac]

My fault, should have taken the time to read the wiki entry instead of relying on some bodybuilding forum. It's high in non-essential amino-acids and lacks essential ones though.

Those "non-essential" amino acids are probably the reason gelatin helps. It's not meant to be a significant source of protein, make sure you're getting enough protein elsewhere.

[niner]

Gelatin - i've read that has zilch bioavailability?

Where did you get that? It's basically protein....

My fault, should have taken the time to read the wiki entry instead of relying on some bodybuilding forum. It's high in non-essential amino-acids and lacks essential ones though.

That's the point. It contains the amino acids particular to collagen, in the same ratios as found in collagen. It isn't meant to be a general nutrient, like whey.

[GhostBuster]

Red light / Infrared light

http://www.longecity...infrared-light/

[ViolettVol]

Ok, this might sound like a tiotaly idiotic question but is there some dermatological procedure to measure the amount of collagen/elastin in skin or maye is one being developed? It would help determine how well the treatments work. Wouldn;t be nice to hear - you now have the collagen of a thirty sth, but in a few months of this treatment youll be back to the level when you were 21.? Sounds like a fairy tale I know, but bigger medical breakthroughs have been achieved. Just plesse don;t flame me for this idea, it's kindly meant!

[GhostBuster]

Take pictures or treat only another side of the face.

There are other relevant factors that contribute to the skin aging besides collagen, a lose of subcutaneous fat for example. It has a major importance imo. Even if you get back all the lost collagen, you won't look the same.

[niner]

Ok, this might sound like a tiotaly idiotic question but is there some dermatological procedure to measure the amount of collagen/elastin in skin or maye is one being developed? It would help determine how well the treatments work. Wouldn;t be nice to hear - you now have the collagen of a thirty sth, but in a few months of this treatment youll be back to the level when you were 21.? Sounds like a fairy tale I know, but bigger medical breakthroughs have been achieved. Just plesse don;t flame me for this idea, it's kindly meant!

People who do skin research have a variety of ways to quantitate it. They can measure the response of the skin to a stretching force, they can measure surface roughness, they can take a biopsy and apply all manner of biochemical analysis. Methods like this are a good way to figure out if something works. When used in human patients, they're usually combined with a dermatologist's observation, because ultimately what matters is the appearance of the skin.

[ViolettVol]

Take pictures or treat only another side of the face.

There are other relevant factors that contribute to the skin aging besides collagen, a lose of subcutaneous fat for example. It has a major importance imo. Even if you get back all the lost collagen, you won't look the same.

Speaking of subcutaneous fat on the face - is there any way to prevent its loss? And if it has been lost, ways to replace it? I know there are surgical ways but what about non-surgical?

[GhostBuster]

Take pictures or treat only another side of the face.

There are other relevant factors that contribute to the skin aging besides collagen, a lose of subcutaneous fat for example. It has a major importance imo. Even if you get back all the lost collagen, you won't look the same.

Speaking of subcutaneous fat on the face - is there any way to prevent its loss? And if it has been lost, ways to replace it? I know there are surgical ways but what about non-surgical?

I haven't found any solid information about that. Copper peptides are said to increase subcutaneous fat.
You might find this topic intresting:

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=38009

In paper Bio-Bustyl appears to be a promising candidate.

[Stefanovic]

you can take so many supplements but isnt there just one supplement that contains it all? I'm already on neocell collagen but I probably need more to have the full benefit

[ViolettVol]

Take pictures or treat only another side of the face.

There are other relevant factors that contribute to the skin aging besides collagen, a lose of subcutaneous fat for example. It has a major importance imo. Even if you get back all the lost collagen, you won't look the same.

Speaking of subcutaneous fat on the face - is there any way to prevent its loss? And if it has been lost, ways to replace it? I know there are surgical ways but what about non-surgical?

I haven't found any solid information about that. Copper peptides are said to increase subcutaneous fat.
You might find this topic intresting:

http://www.essential...d.php?tid=38009

In paper Bio-Bustyl appears to be a promising candidate.

Copper peptides are tricky - there are many sources saying they first thin the skin and only then plump it back up if ever and that caertain type of pepetidie 9th one known as botox alternative) when used on whole face cane cause it to prematurely sag. So I'm wondering if theres something other than copper peptides that preserves the subcutaneous fat and/or restores it. anyone heard of any new reasearch n that? And what causes the fat to dsssipate in the first lCE? uva again ? glycation? free radicals?
I've been fortunate enough BE 28 and still have youthful skin, many people put me at ge 19-22 so I want to preserve that as long as possible, but weightloss and stress makes me see some unwanted changes in skin when I observe m,yself aefully. Any advice how to preserve myself?

[DAMI]

There are some other silica supplements that I've heard do not have good bioavailability. Beer is a good source of silicon. I would modify the alcohol avoidance part of the list to allow an occasional beer.

Couldn't I avoid the alcohol and still get the silicon benefits by drinking alcohol-free beer?

[PGN]

Ultrasound is another way to stimulate collagen production. Also good for tightening the skin and gentle exfoliating without using harsh acids or scrubs. Here are a couple of professional spa units.

http://facialcare.ne...y_current_sub=0
http://www.alvabeaut...System_p632.htm

These are more suitable for home use:

http://www.bellairei....com/guide.html

This is a medical device using ultrasound called Ulthera:

http://www.ultherapy...ightening-About


As far as measuring collagen, you can't go by surface appearance only. Which is why subjective surface evaluations are often misleading. You may look better, but it doesn't mean your skin has improved at the cellular level, which is what you want for more sustained results. You can use devices, skin care products that may irritate and inflame your skin, which causes microswelling ( a very subtle, not red, swelling) causing a temporary filling in effect of wrinkles. You may think from looking at the reduction of wrinkles, that it's a result of increased collagen but it is merely swelling. When you hear a product claiming instant wrinkle reduction, your scam alert should go up. Collagen takes weeks to develop, at least 4 to 6 weeks. Any wrinkle reduction in a day or a week is probably temporary. The only way to know for sure if something is capable of inducing collagen growth is to take punch biopsies and look under a microscope after a reasonable period of time of therapy, like 6 weeks. If you want to test at home, stop what you are using for 2 to 3 weeks, if your wrinkles don't reappear, you probably have valid collagen growth and not swelling caused by inflammation or irritation. The adage that you have to keep using something or your skin will return to its former state is not a reflection of skin health or integrity. It only means your skin has developed a dependency on something to look good, which is not a good thing. You want the skin to do the work, not your topicals/gadgets. If your skin is working properly and replacing collagen at a healthy rate, you shouldn't need to use a bunch of topicals on a daily basis to keep it looking good. A healthy lifestyle is the basis for good skin too.

Edited by PGN, 17 June 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[JBForrester]

Ultrasound is another way to stimulate collagen production. Also good for tightening the skin and gentle exfoliating without using harsh acids or scrubs. Here are a couple of professional spa units.

http://facialcare.ne...y_current_sub=0
http://www.alvabeaut...System_p632.htm

These are more suitable for home use:

http://www.bellairei....com/guide.html

This is a medical device using ultrasound called Ulthera:

http://www.ultherapy...ightening-About


As far as measuring collagen, you can't go by surface appearance only. Which is why subjective surface evaluations are often misleading. You may look better, but it doesn't mean your skin has improved at the cellular level, which is what you want for more sustained results. You can use devices, skin care products that may irritate and inflame your skin, which causes microswelling ( a very subtle, not red, swelling) causing a temporary filling in effect of wrinkles. You may think from looking at the reduction of wrinkles, that it's a result of increased collagen but it is merely swelling. When you hear a product claiming instant wrinkle reduction, your scam alert should go up. Collagen takes weeks to develop, at least 4 to 6 weeks. Any wrinkle reduction in a day or a week is probably temporary. The only way to know for sure if something is capable of inducing collagen growth is to take punch biopsies and look under a microscope after a reasonable period of time of therapy, like 6 weeks. If you want to test at home, stop what you are using for 2 to 3 weeks, if your wrinkles don't reappear, you probably have valid collagen growth and not swelling caused by inflammation or irritation. The adage that you have to keep using something or your skin will return to its former state is not a reflection of skin health or integrity. It only means your skin has developed a dependency on something to look good, which is not a good thing. You want the skin to do the work, not your topicals/gadgets. If your skin is working properly and replacing collagen at a healthy rate, you shouldn't need to use a bunch of topicals on a daily basis to keep it looking good. A healthy lifestyle is the basis for good skin too.

So then what are the thoughts on devices like ultherapy? It seems that the women look older in the after pictures if you google ultherapy images, even though with tighter skin. It's due to the loss of fat plus tightening. However, the fat in the face is crucial to looking younger, so it seems like the solution is to find something that tightens without causing lipoatrophy.