2844 replies to this topic

[JChief]

I've found (after assuming) TAU isn't absorbed well sublingually because it is lipid soluble. UMP is water soluble. Even though TAU has a higher bioavailability orally perhaps the UMP is the best route if you choose the more activating effects reported in this thread from the sublingual UMP doses. Therefore, sublingual UMP may be the most cost effective way to raise plasma uridine levels. But I have experienced good effects from 50mg TAU taken with food + DHA containing fish oil. I also take ALCAR 2x per day and piracetam on an empty stomach.

Edited by JChief, 07 December 2011 - 06:27 AM.

[bacopa]

kitty got it thanks, I miss shit all the time, it's frustrating...I also can't problem solve very well, but I'm noticing a lift from the ump, now I'm considering zeolite for detox,

and guys, honestly, I truly appreciate your help...i have been with imminst since 03, and struggled a lot, but this is brutal, I need all the help I can get...I literally have to jumpstart my brain, with supplements, it sucks...but I have to do everything to survive at this point.

Mr. Happy your finding was a good one...ump is ok with my stomach now...i understand the sublingual and I'm going to order TAU...it's very difficult when your in a haze, you start to panic, and things go right past me, due to all of the damage that I do not want to dwell on...

if you guys like silly humor here is one of my sisters webisodes: youmakemydreamscometrue.com

it's about forming a hall and oats cover band. She's becoming a big star now got her first feature film with Genine garopolo and has been doing overbroadway plays for years in NYC...

Edited by dfowler, 08 December 2011 - 04:25 AM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

This is a beautiful thread still!

[1thoughtMaze1]

I'm extremely good at problem solving so im curious how this goes, but I'm must admit I'm still a bit behind in calculus, so if THIS can make calc a bit easier then I will know for sure!

[bacopa]

I was ok at problem solving during my getting bit better phase, I was best naturally, before all this shit started, as in early 20's.........

I can only imagine if I knew then what I know now, I'd probably have avoided, so much damage, and would be far ahead, guess that goes with a lot of people unfortunately.

imminst started in 2002 I believe...there was much less knowledge than, with regards to the synergy of body metabolic functioning, and the brain...it was more just nootropics, and theories, not much diet stuff, but than again I did not look at that info back then...

We should be taught in schools this shit, but obviously the world we live in is highly against self experimentation, even if it's pretty harmless if you do it right....

this is a great thread!

[matter_of_time]

you all got me very interested in Uridine, I am planning ordering it soon.

I just wonder if someone has tried GPC choline sublingual?

[tintinet]

you all got me very interested in Uridine, I am planning ordering it soon.

I just wonder if someone has tried GPC choline sublingual?

No, but I've been taking CDP-choline (250 mg) SL BID. Might confound my uridine response, but, so far, that's minimal, anyway.

[MrHappy]

No, but I've been taking CDP-choline (250 mg) SL BID. Might confound my uridine response, but, so far, that's minimal, anyway.

OK, you've got me genuinely curious.. Let's see what I can do to help.

A few base questions:
How long have you been taking these supplements?

What was your brain like to start with - any issues with moods, fog, stress, memory, problem solving?

Do you have any known medical conditions or allergies?

What exactly does your regimen look like - brands, types, dose amounts, time of day, method of dosing, if not ingestion?

What's your typical daily dietary intake look like?

Do you smoke / drink / anything else?

What are you anticipating as a 'noticable' effect?

[MrHappy]

Uridine for treating type I and type II bipolar disorder:
http://www.faqs.org/...app/20090054370

... apparently as a cure, too.. if I'm reading this correctly:

[0087]A general dosage is between 3 and 100 mg/kg/day, e.g., which can be 0.25 to 7 grams (e.g., 0.25, 0.5, or 1 grams) per patient per day. Oral tablets of triacetyl uridine can be used. The daily dosage is administered on an ongoing basis until symptoms subside.

One interesting thing I noticed from the patient histories is that females seemed to benefit while every male either did not respond or reported loose stools and farting. Terrrrrrrific. But anyway.. I like this combo thus far. I do feel it helps with improved mood. And at 50mg TAU that is far lower than any clinical study for depression. Yet I do notice a difference!

For science, I decided to 'take one for the team' and tried to replicate that bipolar study and find the upper limits of UMP dosages for males... and I certainly found it. <chuckle>

I took 500mg UMP sublingually a few mornings ago (equivalent to 5g, orally) along with my usual stack. Ended up with a pretty entertaining dose of diarrhea late that night and the following morning. I did have 3 glasses of red wine that night that may have contributed, but I'm quite content it was the ridiculously large dose of uridine.

This was very interesting, as it pretty much ruled out gastrointestinal irritation and bowel flora/fauna as the cause of the loose stools in male population of the bipolar trials.

Since this was an equivalent dose to 5g UMP orally, but skipping the stomach, bowels and liver on the way IN, the diarrhea had to come from a liver/gall-bladder reaction to massively increased plasma levels of uridine.

So.. I did some digging around and I came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia....osphate_glucose
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11022826

So essentially, the massively increased uridine plasma levels following an equivalent of 5g UMP appears to lead to increased levels of uridine diphosphate glucose.
This essentially increases bile production and pH.

Estrogen levels have a large part to play on inhibiting bile production, which I believe is the reason the females in that study tolerated the extremely high plasma levels of uridine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1355692/
Apart from normally higher levels of estrogen in females (obviously), I don't think the study looked at whether female participants were also taking birth-control pills, etc., either.

Anyway, this was purely in the interest of scientific enquiry... I'm back to my normal dose and still feeling my usual happy self.

However, this may possibly be of some interest to women with gall-bladder damage from birth control pills such as Yaz and Yasmin, possibly as a non-surgery option - but I guess someone will need to run some real studies on that, I am just hypothesising from reading research papers and my recent time examining bathroom tiles.

On the list of additional benefits from UMP supplementation, looks like there are also some nice cardio-related positives from increased UDP-glucose:
http://delano.com/blog/28-revision/
.. this is also a nice primer on oratic acid and the related cycle. Coincidently, JChief's avatar is also the face of the page, in reverse. You're famous, JChief! <chuckle>

[JChief]

Very interesting that you experienced the issues as well and the explanation sounds logical. Thanks for being the "rat" this time around!

[GhostBuster]

I took 500mg UMP sublingually a few mornings ago (equivalent to 5g, orally) along with my usual stack. Ended up with a pretty entertaining dose of diarrhea late that night and the following morning. I did have 3 glasses of red wine that night that may have contributed, but I'm quite content it was the ridiculously large dose of uridine.

This was very interesting, as it pretty much ruled out gastrointestinal irritation and bowel flora/fauna as the cause of the loose stools in male population of the bipolar trials.

Since this was an equivalent dose to 5g UMP orally, but skipping the stomach, bowels and liver on the way IN, the diarrhea had to come from a liver/gall-bladder reaction to massively increased plasma levels of uridine.

0,5 g sublingually = 5 g UMP orally, do you have a reference for this? Or how did you come up with that?

[Hebbeh]

I have taken >500 mg sublingual many times and just this morning took 600mg sublingual (opened 2 300mg caps as my bulk supply is gone :-( ) and I've never experienced any kind of negative sides. The biggest difference at that sublingual dose is I have a MUCH lower tolerance to caffeine and have to really limit my caffeine intake which normally is never a problem.

[ODAN]

Greetings !

I have to ask, if Uridine synthetise into CDP-Choline, why not just take CDP-choline ?

Somebody asked the question and the answer was quite slim. I'd really like to understand this more.

Does Uridine have its own beneficial effect ? Which would mean that CDP-Choline actually isn't the "end-game" goal of Uridine, and thus would mean that taking Uridine bring more benefits that taking CDP-Choline does.


I am currently trying to make myself a list of supplements to help with my motivation and my ADD. Thanks a lot for all the excellent information you're providing.

Edited by ODAN, 09 December 2011 - 05:31 PM.

[Hebbeh]

I've taken 500mg CDP daily for a very long time and for me, 300mg sublingual uridine is way way more effective. I've tried CDP sublingual too and it doesn't even come close to the same effect.

Edit...typing on phone :-(

Edited by Hebbeh, 09 December 2011 - 05:43 PM.

[tintinet]

No, but I've been taking CDP-choline (250 mg) SL BID. Might confound my uridine response, but, so far, that's minimal, anyway.

OK, you've got me genuinely curious.. Let's see what I can do to help.

A few base questions:
How long have you been taking these supplements?

About a week.

What was your brain like to start with - any issues with moods, fog, stress, memory, problem solving?

Mood swings, anxiety, inability to focus.

Do you have any known medical conditions or allergies?

IBS, GERD, hives from SMZ-TMP, years ago.



What exactly does your regimen look like - brands, types, dose amounts, time of day, method of dosing, if not ingestion?

Early AM 300 mg UMP SL with 250 mg CDP-Choline SL. A few hours later, mid morning, repeat.

What's your typical daily dietary intake look like?

Mostly vegetarian, fruit, raw and cooked vegetables, legumes, hemp protein, whey protein, occasional fish, red meat, chicken, etc..

Do you smoke / drink / anything else?

Coffee, tea, occasional social ETOH.

What are you anticipating as a 'noticable' effect?

Improved and more stable mood, concentration, focus, sense of well being,

[MrHappy]

0,5 g sublingually = 5 g UMP orally, do you have a reference for this? Or how did you come up with that?

In the case of UMP, subjectively, 250mg sublingually gives me a similar feeling to >2g orally.

From previous research on serum levels of other substances taken either orally or via IV, IV levels seem to be around 10x higher than oral dosing in a lot of cases. As sublingually, you're also bypassing the normal metabolism route, I'd expect to see ballpark similar results, depending on how much is absorbed into surrounding tissue. I'd guess-timate >7x. Really depends on hepatic function, etc.

[MrHappy]

I have taken >500 mg sublingual many times and just this morning took 600mg sublingual (opened 2 300mg caps as my bulk supply is gone :-( ) and I've never experienced any kind of negative sides. The biggest difference at that sublingual dose is I have a MUCH lower tolerance to caffeine and have to really limit my caffeine intake which normally is never a problem.

It may have been an interaction with the red wine, as well - I need to repeat the process without that to see.

You could possibly be using more uridine than me, so less being turned into UDP.

That or you're one of the awesome ones who has genes that can handle the higher doses. <chuckle>

[nito]

0,5 g sublingually = 5 g UMP orally, do you have a reference for this? Or how did you come up with that?

In the case of UMP, subjectively, 250mg sublingually gives me a similar feeling to >2g orally.

From previous research on serum levels of other substances taken either orally or via IV, IV levels seem to be around 10x higher than oral dosing in a lot of cases. As sublingually, you're also bypassing the normal metabolism route, I'd expect to see ballpark similar results, depending on how much is absorbed into surrounding tissue. I'd guess-timate >7x. Really depends on hepatic function, etc.

Just got my TAU. However SUPERIOR PHARMACEUTICALS has not shipped my UMP even though it's been 9 days since i ordered it. So mr happy, what do you suggest a starting dose of TAU should be, and oral or sublingual ?

[MrHappy]

No, but I've been taking CDP-choline (250 mg) SL BID. Might confound my uridine response, but, so far, that's minimal, anyway.

OK, you've got me genuinely curious.. Let's see what I can do to help.

A few base questions:
How long have you been taking these supplements?

About a week.

What was your brain like to start with - any issues with moods, fog, stress, memory, problem solving?

Mood swings, anxiety, inability to focus.

Do you have any known medical conditions or allergies?

IBS, GERD, hives from SMZ-TMP, years ago.



What exactly does your regimen look like - brands, types, dose amounts, time of day, method of dosing, if not ingestion?

Early AM 300 mg UMP SL with 250 mg CDP-Choline SL. A few hours later, mid morning, repeat.

What's your typical daily dietary intake look like?

Mostly vegetarian, fruit, raw and cooked vegetables, legumes, hemp protein, whey protein, occasional fish, red meat, chicken, etc..

Do you smoke / drink / anything else?

Coffee, tea, occasional social ETOH.

What are you anticipating as a 'noticable' effect?

Improved and more stable mood, concentration, focus, sense of well being,

OK, so you're not taking the cofactors - DHA, EPA, folate, B12, E or multi at the moment? I think that might be a very big reason. You should be seeing changes after about 10-14 days.

I'd probably try to cut right back on the coffee, too.

[MrHappy]

0,5 g sublingually = 5 g UMP orally, do you have a reference for this? Or how did you come up with that?

In the case of UMP, subjectively, 250mg sublingually gives me a similar feeling to >2g orally.

From previous research on serum levels of other substances taken either orally or via IV, IV levels seem to be around 10x higher than oral dosing in a lot of cases. As sublingually, you're also bypassing the normal metabolism route, I'd expect to see ballpark similar results, depending on how much is absorbed into surrounding tissue. I'd guess-timate >7x. Really depends on hepatic function, etc.

Just got my TAU. However SUPERIOR PHARMACEUTICALS has not shipped my UMP even though it's been 9 days since i ordered it. So mr happy, what do you suggest a starting dose of TAU should be, and oral or sublingual ?

TAU is lipid soluble, so sublingual doses won't work well. Try taking 50mg of TAU and the other cofactors for now and see how you go over the next week or so.

[nito]

0,5 g sublingually = 5 g UMP orally, do you have a reference for this? Or how did you come up with that?

In the case of UMP, subjectively, 250mg sublingually gives me a similar feeling to >2g orally.

From previous research on serum levels of other substances taken either orally or via IV, IV levels seem to be around 10x higher than oral dosing in a lot of cases. As sublingually, you're also bypassing the normal metabolism route, I'd expect to see ballpark similar results, depending on how much is absorbed into surrounding tissue. I'd guess-timate >7x. Really depends on hepatic function, etc.

Just got my TAU. However SUPERIOR PHARMACEUTICALS has not shipped my UMP even though it's been 9 days since i ordered it. So mr happy, what do you suggest a starting dose of TAU should be, and oral or sublingual ?

TAU is lipid soluble, so sublingual doses won't work well. Try taking 50mg of TAU and the other cofactors for now and see how you go over the next week or so.

Btw i thought you could feel them instantly, or is that only with UMP? Also are you meant to take it on an empty stomach?

[MrHappy]

There are short-term, dose dependant effects that largely revolve around mediating sleep debt and associated brain fog. Concentration is improved, particularly on the larger doses.

The really good effects take about 1-2 weeks to be appreciable.

[ODAN]

Excuse me MrHappy, what exactly is TAU and UMP ?

Also, could you please check this out ? http://www.longecity...nisms-of-alcar/

After reading this, I'm wondering if we could actually replace the GPC/CDP choline with ALCAR ?

[nito]

There are short-term, dose dependant effects that largely revolve around mediating sleep debt and associated brain fog. Concentration is improved, particularly on the larger doses.

The really good effects take about 1-2 weeks to be appreciable.

Well me tell you, i'm sleep deprived lol. i get hardly any sleep cus i stay up late. So large doses would be something like 100-200 mg TAU?

[MrHappy]

Excuse me MrHappy, what exactly is TAU and UMP ?

Also, could you please check this out ? http://www.longecity...nisms-of-alcar/

After reading this, I'm wondering if we could actually replace the GPC/CDP choline with ALCAR ?

JChief switched choline for ALCAR and he has had success.

TAU - TriAcetylUridine - also known as PN401. It's lipid soluble and between 4-8x more bioavailable than free uridine (known as UR).
UMP - Uridine-5'MonoPhosphate, also uridine-5'monophosphate-disodium. Extremely water soluble, so sublingual doses should yield around 7-10x more bioavailability than oral UMP.

Edited by MrHappy, 09 December 2011 - 11:24 PM.

[ODAN]

Well that is just fantastic ! That way I can keep my list of nootropics as small as possible. Thank you !

[MrHappy]

There are short-term, dose dependant effects that largely revolve around mediating sleep debt and associated brain fog. Concentration is improved, particularly on the larger doses.

The really good effects take about 1-2 weeks to be appreciable.

Well me tell you, i'm sleep deprived lol. i get hardly any sleep cus i stay up late. So large doses would be something like 100-200 mg TAU?

That's a reasonably large dose. In your circumstances, I think you'd notice that one. Don't forget the cofactors and see how you go.
Probably don't need to continue at that level, so experiment a bit with doses and potentially save some money.

[MrHappy]

if you guys like silly humor here is one of my sisters webisodes: youmakemydreamscometrue.com

it's about forming a hall and oats cover band. She's becoming a big star now got her first feature film with Genine garopolo and has been doing overbroadway plays for years in NYC...

Some of the actors in the pilot are also in Scott Pilgrim vs The World.

Pilot:
http://www.youtube.c..._JX1kdzU#t=254s

SPvTW:
http://www.youtube.c...13WI3oVda8#t=2s

[nito]

im gonna try it with some marijuana. I wonder if the effect will be different lol

[j03]

I get bad headaches from soy, so would regular choline citrate instead of GPC choline work as well in that combo?