2844 replies to this topic

[Luketheduke64]

Uridine + GPC Choline + Sharp Thought (conjugated phosphatidylserine-docosahexaenoic acid






What do you guys think of this stack? Would this pose any benefits over just plan DHA? Heres a link to the product.

http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=507846

[Dale Taylor]

Thanks MrHappy for your work in this topic. I cant wait to try this out. I am an insomniac so will be nice to see what boost I get from this combo. Mind you my sleep is getting better as I'm doing acupuncture at the moment.

Ordered me some GPC and Uridine. All ready taking a lot of omega 3 and a B complex but will switch to a multi vitamin if need be for this to work. Was just wondering if any one had any suggestions that covered every thing I need Vitamin and mineral wise all in 1 multi?

Well.. you could try this one -
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=96

Works out £56gbp a month for a multi. Think I'll have build my own Never felt any different from these 6 a day mutlis so kind of got put off them. Thanks for the recommendation tho.

[MrHappy]

Thanks MrHappy for your work in this topic. I cant wait to try this out. I am an insomniac so will be nice to see what boost I get from this combo. Mind you my sleep is getting better as I'm doing acupuncture at the moment.

Ordered me some GPC and Uridine. All ready taking a lot of omega 3 and a B complex but will switch to a multi vitamin if need be for this to work. Was just wondering if any one had any suggestions that covered every thing I need Vitamin and mineral wise all in 1 multi?

Well.. you could try this one -
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=96

Works out £56gbp a month for a multi. Think I'll have build my own Never felt any different from these 6 a day mutlis so kind of got put off them. Thanks for the recommendation tho.

Not a recommendation, just one of the options I am aware of.

This one looks better, don't be put off by the 'womens under 50' - it has better ratios than the 'adults under 50':
http://www.centrum.c...nder-50#tablets

I generally prefer to mix my own.

Uridine + GPC Choline + Sharp Thought (conjugated phosphatidylserine-docosahexaenoic acid






What do you guys think of this stack? Would this pose any benefits over just plan DHA? Heres a link to the product.

http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=507846

Maybe, although PS levels are already increased by the existing combo.

[Guardian4981]

Today I started the Uridine at only 25mg.

About a half hour after taking it I had a brief wave of anxiety, also some tightness in the chest.

But after that I felt better, had a really good workout. Its almost midnight and I feel more energized then usual but at the same time don't feel "high."

Just as some background. I used lithium low dose a year ago because I read good things about its anti depressant qualities. While using it I found that I started having slight balance problems when standing up and walking short distances. I also found it increasingly harder to get up in the am. Even after stopping Lithium over half a year ago these symptoms persisted. I feel my dopamine levels were very low. I even got to a point where I started feeling numbness or tingling in my feet.

I will update as time goes on with how this goes with the uridine. I am starting with just 25 mg a day to access how it influences me and take it from there.

[MrHappy]

Today I started the Uridine at only 25mg.

About a half hour after taking it I had a brief wave of anxiety, also some tightness in the chest.

But after that I felt better, had a really good workout. Its almost midnight and I feel more energized then usual but at the same time don't feel "high."

Just as some background. I used lithium low dose a year ago because I read good things about its anti depressant qualities. While using it I found that I started having slight balance problems when standing up and walking short distances. I also found it increasingly harder to get up in the am. Even after stopping Lithium over half a year ago these symptoms persisted. I feel my dopamine levels were very low. I even got to a point where I started feeling numbness or tingling in my feet.

I will update as time goes on with how this goes with the uridine. I am starting with just 25 mg a day to access how it influences me and take it from there.

Good work - 25mg TAU >100mg UMP, orally. This is a fine starting point, although you'll probably want to increase it in time.

[Hebbeh]

Good work - 25mg TAU >100mg UMP, orally. This is a fine starting point, although you'll probably want to increase it in time.

MrHappy, are there any studies demonstrating TAU as having greater efficacy over UMP? My experiences were just the opposite (especially in regards to sublingual) and I've noticed other people reporting the same (greater effect from UMP or no effect from TAU)?

[MrHappy]

Good work - 25mg TAU >100mg UMP, orally. This is a fine starting point, although you'll probably want to increase it in time.

MrHappy, are there any studies demonstrating TAU as having greater efficacy over UMP? My experiences were just the opposite (especially in regards to sublingual) and I've noticed other people reporting the same (greater effect from UMP or no effect from TAU)?

UMP, sublingually, is more efficient, overall.

TAU is more bioavailable than UMP, via oral delivery.

I'll try and dig up the original paper, but I'm writing this on my phone at the moment. If anyone else is keen to search, I'd start with PN401 + bioavailable or PN401 + bioavailability.

[Hebbeh]

Good work - 25mg TAU >100mg UMP, orally. This is a fine starting point, although you'll probably want to increase it in time.

MrHappy, are there any studies demonstrating TAU as having greater efficacy over UMP? My experiences were just the opposite (especially in regards to sublingual) and I've noticed other people reporting the same (greater effect from UMP or no effect from TAU)?

UMP, sublingually, is more efficient, overall.

TAU is more bioavailable than UMP, via oral delivery.

I'll try and dig up the original paper, but I'm writing this on my phone at the moment. If anyone else is keen to search, I'd start with PN401 + bioavailable or PN401 + bioavailability.

Found it in an old post by Chrono...

I don't think this has been mentioned yet. Triacetyluridine (TAU/PN401) is a uridine prodrug which seems to be better than uridine itself at raising plasma levels (oral uridine bioavailability is about 6-10% [1]).

5-(m-Benzyloxybenzyl)barbituric acid acyclonucleoside, a uridine phosphorylase inhibitor, and 2',3',5'-tri-O-acetyluridine, a prodrug of uridine, as modulators of plasma uridine concentration. Implications for chemotherapy.
Ashour OM, Naguib FN, el Kouni MH.

...Oral BBBA administered at 30, 60, 120, and 240 mg/kg increased the concentration of plasma uridine (2.6 +/- 0.7 microM) by 3.2-, 4.6-, 5.4-, and 7.2-fold, respectively. After administration of 120 and 240 mg/kg BBBA, plasma uridine concentration remained 3- and 6-fold, respectively, higher than the plasma concentration at zero time (C0) for over 8 hr. On the other hand, BBBA did not change the concentration of plasma uracil. TAU was far more superior than uridine in improving the bioavailability of plasma uridine. The relative bioavailability of plasma uridine released from oral TAU (53%) was 7-fold higher than that (7.7%) obtained by oral uridine. Oral TAU at 460, 1000, and 2000 mg/kg achieved area under the curve (AUC) values of plasma uridine of 82, 288, and 754 mumol.hr/L, respectively. Coadministration of BBBA with uridine or TAU further improved the bioavailability of plasma uridine resulting from the administration of either alone and reduced the Cmax and AUC of plasma uracil. Coadministration of BBBA at 30, 60, and 120 mg/kg improved the relative bioavailability of uridine released from 2000 mg/kg TAU (53%) by 1.7-, 2.7-, and 3.9-fold, respectively, while coadministration of the same doses of BBBA with an equimolar dose of uridine (1320 mg/kg) increased the relative bioavailability of oral uridine (7.7%) by 4.1-, 5.3-, and 7.8-fold, respectively. Moreover, the AUC and Cmax of plasma uridine after BBBA (120 mg/kg) coadministration with TAU were 3.5- and 11.5-fold, respectively, higher than those obtained from coadministration of BBBA with an equimolar dose of uridine. The exceptional effectiveness of the BBBA plus TAU combination in elevating and sustaining high plasma uridine concentration can be useful in the management of medical disorders that are remedied by administration of uridine as well as to rescue or protect from host-toxicities of various chemotherapeutic pyrimidine analogues.

Phase I trial of PN401, an oral prodrug of uridine, to prevent toxicity from fluorouracil in patients with advanced cancer.
Kelsen DP, Martin D, O'Neil J, Schwartz G, Saltz L, Sung MT, von Borstel R, Bertino J.

Oral PN401 is well tolerated and total doses of 6 g every 6 hours yield sustained levels of URD in the target range of 50 mumol/L. The MTD of FU with PN401 rescue is 1,000 mg/m2 and the recommended dose for phase II trials is 800 mg/m2 given weekly for 6 weeks with dose escalation. Further studies to define better the appropriate interval for PN401 rescue and the appropriate dose of FU when given with biochemical modulation, such as with leucovorin, are indicated.

From my and other's experience though...TAU just doesn't seem to have the same positive benefits of UMP. Hmmm...and all the studies on TAU seem to be by the developers of PN401....makes me question the validity of the studies. I'm skeptical that a prodrug that has to be converted in the body results in higher values than pure quantites of the real thing. That's like saying a prohormone results in higher levels than administration of the pure hormone itself.

[MrHappy]

Good work - 25mg TAU >100mg UMP, orally. This is a fine starting point, although you'll probably want to increase it in time.

MrHappy, are there any studies demonstrating TAU as having greater efficacy over UMP? My experiences were just the opposite (especially in regards to sublingual) and I've noticed other people reporting the same (greater effect from UMP or no effect from TAU)?

UMP, sublingually, is more efficient, overall.

TAU is more bioavailable than UMP, via oral delivery.

I'll try and dig up the original paper, but I'm writing this on my phone at the moment. If anyone else is keen to search, I'd start with PN401 + bioavailable or PN401 + bioavailability.

Found it in an old post by Chrono...

I don't think this has been mentioned yet. Triacetyluridine (TAU/PN401) is a uridine prodrug which seems to be better than uridine itself at raising plasma levels (oral uridine bioavailability is about 6-10% [1]).

5-(m-Benzyloxybenzyl)barbituric acid acyclonucleoside, a uridine phosphorylase inhibitor, and 2',3',5'-tri-O-acetyluridine, a prodrug of uridine, as modulators of plasma uridine concentration. Implications for chemotherapy.
Ashour OM, Naguib FN, el Kouni MH.

...Oral BBBA administered at 30, 60, 120, and 240 mg/kg increased the concentration of plasma uridine (2.6 +/- 0.7 microM) by 3.2-, 4.6-, 5.4-, and 7.2-fold, respectively. After administration of 120 and 240 mg/kg BBBA, plasma uridine concentration remained 3- and 6-fold, respectively, higher than the plasma concentration at zero time (C0) for over 8 hr. On the other hand, BBBA did not change the concentration of plasma uracil. TAU was far more superior than uridine in improving the bioavailability of plasma uridine. The relative bioavailability of plasma uridine released from oral TAU (53%) was 7-fold higher than that (7.7%) obtained by oral uridine. Oral TAU at 460, 1000, and 2000 mg/kg achieved area under the curve (AUC) values of plasma uridine of 82, 288, and 754 mumol.hr/L, respectively. Coadministration of BBBA with uridine or TAU further improved the bioavailability of plasma uridine resulting from the administration of either alone and reduced the Cmax and AUC of plasma uracil. Coadministration of BBBA at 30, 60, and 120 mg/kg improved the relative bioavailability of uridine released from 2000 mg/kg TAU (53%) by 1.7-, 2.7-, and 3.9-fold, respectively, while coadministration of the same doses of BBBA with an equimolar dose of uridine (1320 mg/kg) increased the relative bioavailability of oral uridine (7.7%) by 4.1-, 5.3-, and 7.8-fold, respectively. Moreover, the AUC and Cmax of plasma uridine after BBBA (120 mg/kg) coadministration with TAU were 3.5- and 11.5-fold, respectively, higher than those obtained from coadministration of BBBA with an equimolar dose of uridine. The exceptional effectiveness of the BBBA plus TAU combination in elevating and sustaining high plasma uridine concentration can be useful in the management of medical disorders that are remedied by administration of uridine as well as to rescue or protect from host-toxicities of various chemotherapeutic pyrimidine analogues.

Phase I trial of PN401, an oral prodrug of uridine, to prevent toxicity from fluorouracil in patients with advanced cancer.
Kelsen DP, Martin D, O'Neil J, Schwartz G, Saltz L, Sung MT, von Borstel R, Bertino J.

Oral PN401 is well tolerated and total doses of 6 g every 6 hours yield sustained levels of URD in the target range of 50 mumol/L. The MTD of FU with PN401 rescue is 1,000 mg/m2 and the recommended dose for phase II trials is 800 mg/m2 given weekly for 6 weeks with dose escalation. Further studies to define better the appropriate interval for PN401 rescue and the appropriate dose of FU when given with biochemical modulation, such as with leucovorin, are indicated.

From my and other's experience though...TAU just doesn't seem to have the same positive benefits of UMP. Hmmm...and all the studies on TAU seem to be by the developers of PN401....makes me question the validity of the studies. I'm skeptical that a prodrug that has to be converted in the body results in higher values than pure quantites of the real thing. That's like saying a prohormone results in higher levels than administration of the pure hormone itself.

Hard to say - I think there are circumstances where absorption of uridine via oral routes is reduced significantly - perhaps bowel fauna/flora or hepatic function. Sublingual doses bypass this issue, completely.

My own TAU experience was last year, when travelling - I packed TAU (for convenience at airport security and because I wanted to test it.) I found 100mg TAU was a substantial dose, more like a double dose of my usual 200-300mg oral UMP. I had to drop back to 75mg TAU.

Edited by MrHappy, 17 November 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[Guardian4981]

Yesterday (second day) on uridine I found I woke up with a slight headache. I took 2 uridine yesterday morning along with fish oil, by the afternoon my headache was much worse. I nonetheless pushed myself to get to the gym, I spent some time in the sauna, after that my headache declined some. Then I found by around 6pm I seemed to experience a gradual increase in serotonin where I felt really content and my appetite for the rest of the night was non existent (usually eat before bed) and my headache was completely gone without taking any aspirin or anything.

Today I am going to use 50 mg again, I think I may withold the fish oil for now. Fish oil historically tends to give me headaches and nasal issues. I also think I may have high choline levels, I eat 4 eggs when I wake up and 4 more before sleep. This high choline may play a role in my low dopamine because I do notice the times I do not eat eggs before bed I wake up feeling a bit more motivated for the day.

Other things I have noticed. Time seems to be going by slower, my perception anyway. I remember yesterday looking at the clock, usually I say wow its already this time, yesterday I was saying wow that's all. I also feel like my brain has better circulation going on, similar to how it feels when I meditate but now it feels that way all day long. I also feel that my senses are a bit sharper, I find myself smelling odors more deeply. I also seem to be having alittle less ocd thoughts.

My last point I want to stress is that something I so far really like about uridine is it feels more "natural." I have used countless supplements/drugs to try to combat my dysthmia, usually even if they "work" I feel artificial, I feel like something is just giving my body a brief boost, this has at times lead to borderline mania or serotonin syndrome. With the uridine it almost feels like my body is repairing itself and trying to be a better version of itself rather then just running high of something.

Edited by Guardian4981, 18 November 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Guardian4981]

MRHappy

Reading through the read it appears some people experiences loss of libido on uridine. If uridine boosts dopamine shouldn't it raise libido?

If I find this to be the case perhaps I will try stacking uridine with stinging nettle.

[Hebbeh]

MRHappy

Reading through the read it appears some people experiences loss of libido on uridine. If uridine boosts dopamine shouldn't it raise libido?

If I find this to be the case perhaps I will try stacking uridine with stinging nettle.

Uridine modulates or normalizes brain chemistry including dopamine. If dopamine is unusually low, it should help to raise it to bring it in balance. If dopamine is unusually high, it should lower it to bring it in balance with other neurotransmitters.

Effect on libido will vary due to individual brain chemistry and existing balance (or unbalance) of neurotransmitters.

Libido is a very complicated issue independent of just dopamine levels.

[Lufega]

Uridine tampers my libido a bit. It takes me longer to reach orgasm and the ejaculatory volume is decreased. But so what! I feel great on it. More balanced. Memory and cognitive processes are better. Maybe the dose is to high? I'm hoping it'll be a matter of time before things balance out. Besides, my libido is a source of distraction for me. So this break is welcomed.

[Guardian4981]

If the brain can repair the underlying issue, I don't understand why would you want to keep bombarding it with seratonin? It's a side-of-the-road quick fix with unwanted side effects.

What are you suggesting here? That serotonin somehow gets in the way of the brain repairing itself? Do you have a citation for this?

The prevailing hypothesis of how SSRI's actually work runs counter to what you seem to be suggesting (PMID: 22076148).

Also, regarding your suicide claims with SSRI's. Your citation is comes from an obviously biased site that gains financially from extolling n3's. Their source for that claim also shows that in the early 80's that the placebo recipients were more likely to commit suicide. Furthermore, the conclusion of that review contains: "

We also observed several major methodological limitations in the published trials."

It is not surprising SSRIs may increase suicide risk. All SSRIs do is help "trap" serotonin, it doesn't aid in producing any more, this is why over time SSRIs tend to be less effective and the dose needs to be upped and upped. Also, based on side effects such as difficulty with orgasm, it is reasonable to say SSRIs lower dopamine in a meaningful way, too low of dopamine or serotonin will increase suicide risk.

[Pirate]

How does this stack fare with high dose alcar (1.5g and above?)

[Hebbeh]

How does this stack fare with high dose alcar (1.5g and above?)

YMMV...but I had been using 500-1000mg alcar prior to uridine but after being on uridine, I found that I felt better without the alcar.

[curiouskid23]

I've been taking 250mg UMP for 3 days now. I'd say they've been some of the best 3 days of this semester. But, I think there are a lot of confounding factors here, but those confounding factors have also been present in the past, so though I'm hesitant to make any attributions, so far Uridine seems to be really good.

I've noticed two interesting things regarding the co-factors.

I took a B-complex on the first day and I noticed my urine was very neon. (which I think attributed to excess B2 (perhaps B vitamins in general?) being excreted.) However, I skipped on the 2nd day, and when I took a B-vitamin on the third day, I noticed my pee wasn't nearly so neon yellow. So, this just could have been because the B-vitamin hasn't been fully digested (perhaps the next time I pee it will be very yellow). The other explanation is that my body's need for B2 has gone up significantly. Maybe if b12 and b9 are also bright yellow when excreted, this would point out that my body's usage of them has gone up. EDIT: I peed again and it was still much clearer than it's been every other time I've taken a B-complex. Must be the Uridine.

I also noticed that my skin has become a lot drier and splotichier. This could be a sign of low vitamin E. I'm going to order some Vitamin E and see if taking this makes it go away.


Generalizing here, I would like to see more recommendations here telling people how to tinker. For example "Take X, see if Y happens, if it does, then do Z for A days." "Take ALCAR, see if you feel more alert, if you do, take more ALCAR for 3 days, if you feel brain fog for 3 days, it's because XYZ then drop back down to your original dosage."

The point here is that you're making predictions about something in advance, and then making predictions about what your proposed solution will do.

So, what predictions should I have if I take too much choline bitartrate? I don't have a source, but I heard that bitartrate has a hard time crossing the BBB, so it's hard to take too much. So, I predict if I take a lot of bitartrate with this, I think I'll feel even better.

For a-gpc and citicholine, I would try to follow the procedure of incrementally dialing up the dosage until I found problems and then dialing it down.

Then, I would try the same procedure as I did with choline sources with various permutations of dosages with ALCAR and choline.

My question is, how long should I wait before trying to dial up or down a dosage?

Edited by curiouskid23, 19 November 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[kevinseven11]

Plain fish oil isn't a good idea guys! Krill oil is the only oil you should be using.

[stablemind]

How does this stack fare with high dose alcar (1.5g and above?)

I found that it worked better individually. When combined, it was difficult to notice each of it's effects and they seemed to be mellowed. I find that dosing Uridine occasionally for me works just as well as daily dosing since it seems to have cumulative effects so I'm probably going to do ALCAR for a few days, then switch it to Uridine, then back to ALCAR.

[Pirate]

Got my uridine in the mail. It is UMP.

So, does the dosage differ for sublingual and oral?

[MrHappy]

Got my uridine in the mail. It is UMP.

So, does the dosage differ for sublingual and oral?

Yes.. I'd suggest around 150mg, orally as a starting point. There's some more getting started info in post 1.

[Renegade]

25mg TAU was a horrible for my brain. Would I benefit by trying half a capsule or is this just too low? I do seem to be sensitive to supplements.
I've been considering ordering some UMP but I've not seen anything to suggest that UMP would affect me any differently. With shipping it would cost me $60 so its an expensive experiment!
Any advice is appreciated.

[Guardian4981]

What do you mean by "horrible for your brain."

[Pirate]

Got my uridine in the mail. It is UMP.

So, does the dosage differ for sublingual and oral?

Yes.. I'd suggest around 150mg, orally as a starting point. There's some more getting started info in post 1.

Post 1 doesn't seem to have an exact dosage for sublingual. It does say its 7x - 10x stronger but that's not an exact dosage.

I'm hoping to get best bang for my buck, but, without frying my brain!!

[MrHappy]

Got my uridine in the mail. It is UMP.

So, does the dosage differ for sublingual and oral?

Yes.. I'd suggest around 150mg, orally as a starting point. There's some more getting started info in post 1.

Post 1 doesn't seem to have an exact dosage for sublingual. It does say its 7x - 10x stronger but that's not an exact dosage.

I'm hoping to get best bang for my buck, but, without frying my brain!!

It's much easier to measure oral doses. If you have mg scales, you could try eg. 30mg UMP sublingually.

25mg TAU was a horrible for my brain. Would I benefit by trying half a capsule or is this just too low? I do seem to be sensitive to supplements.
I've been considering ordering some UMP but I've not seen anything to suggest that UMP would affect me any differently. With shipping it would cost me $60 so its an expensive experiment!
Any advice is appreciated.

Did you try uridine + B vitamins alone? If so, you might be an over methylator.

[**DEACTIVATED**]

MrHappy making an impression on Iherb?

[MrHappy]

MrHappy making an impression on Iherb?

They finally have TAU.. Pity no UMP.

It's good to see that the most commonly bought additional products are omega-3s.

[Guardian4981]

Its been almost a week on Uridine.

What I am finding is that my mood has not greatly improved, however there seems to be floor that wasn't always there. What I mean by that is different thoughts or issues day to day would throw my mood into a downward spiral where now it seems I do not go into that spiral.

I also seem to find that lower dose uridine feels better for me, when I take higher dose it causes me to have symptoms of high serotonin, no appetite, overly relaxed, etc.

I know MRHappy has suggested the benefits of uridine grow over time so I am going to continue to take it and see how things go.

I am also now throwing bacopa pre bed into the mix.

Edited by Guardian4981, 23 November 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[MrHappy]

Its been almost a week on Uridine.

What I am finding is that my mood has not greatly improved, however there seems to be floor that wasn't always there. What I mean by that is different thoughts or issues day to day would throw my mood into a downward spiral where now it seems I do not go into that spiral.

I also seem to find that lower dose uridine feels better for me, when I take higher dose it causes me to have symptoms of high serotonin, no appetite, overly relaxed, etc.

I know MRHappy has suggested the benefits of uridine grow over time so I am going to continue to take it and see how things go.

I am also now throwing bacopa pre bed into the mix.

Raising the floor is the first thing I notice. Arguably, happiness is freedom from pain / irritation.

What's your current dosing schedule look like?

[alecnevsky]

I've been taking my tau + sulb. + pram + ani. (fat solubles) capsules and found them to be less invigorating than my ginkgo(maoi)+ginseng(adaptogen)+ciltep(Ltp)+alcar(energy/antioxidant?)+gpc(Ach)+tyrosine(dopamine)+phenylpiracetam(racetam+phenyl?) stack, which prompted me to read up on Tau and Sulb more. Am I right in thinking that Tau and Sulb actually decrease immediate dopamine activity as a result of modulating properties and up-regulate the DA receptors instead (i.e., less immediate energy vis-a-vis tyrosine+alcar, but upkeep of receptors from down regulation)? In which case then, it [tau+sulb] should not be immediately mixed with my "up" mix but should generally be taken at night to prevent down-regulation? I could literally go to sleep on my prop mix of 750mg Ani(anxiolytic/ampa) 300mg Pram(racetam) 300mg Sulb(DA modulator) Tau(DA modulator) 80mg.

So I wonder whether I should not take the latter while on a dopamine precursor/stimulant stack.

I am looking for a sustainable stimulant alternative that could be used at least 3 times a week.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Decrease of DA via Tau?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10996447 Decrease of DA via Sulb. ?

Edited by alecnevsky, 24 November 2012 - 05:01 AM.