2844 replies to this topic

[MrHappy]

How much/often are you dosing?

Between 40mg and 250mg sublingual, sporadically.

That's one interpretation, but I'm not so sure.

Social disconnection and reduced pleasure from social situations is definitely one of the side effects I feel from Uridine, as well. Personally, I avoid it on non-workdays for that reason.

Interesting. I think it does the opposite for me. The "modulating" effect of of uridine suggests it can both lower and raise dopamine. This implies it would lower dopamine if you had too much and raise it if you didn't have enough. This seems oversimplified, but if we can equate dopamine with being outgoing, that could explain why some are more social while others aren't on uridine.

That being said, if I take too much uridine, I do get edgy and am less social also. So, maybe pro-social effects go away with higher dosages.

Somewhere in this thread, someone posted how people on the autism spectrum have higher brain uridine levels. I'm on the autism spectrum, and for me personally, taking uridine feels a lot like stepping a few years back in the progressive social warming-up I've been going through the past six years or so. There's more distance from experience and empathy, like watching your life from a screen. There's a payoff in objectivity and emotional stability though, and these effects are completely transient.

Could be there's some relation between the social symptoms of autism and uridine, and/or that my (presumably) naturally high levels leave me predisposed to a low-dose onset of its anti-social effects.

Note, though, that I'm still using up my stash of 'Enhanced Sublingual Formula' UMP, which has a ridiculous dose of methyl B12 as a confounding factor.

People who are diagnosed on the autism spectrum already have higher levels of plasma uridine, as it is not being used for some of its normal functions. I've read some papers over the last year, or so, that suggest heavily that removing wheat and gluten from the diet of people suffering from autism makes a huge difference, as does supplementing methylfolate and methylcobalamin and increasing dietary cholesterol.

Does anyone know a good source for uridine in europe? MrHappy posted a link to a french site, but thats now a 404 - and I cant find the product on their website anymore.

I could get spirulina, but I doubt that it is as effective, given the same amount of uridine. Am I wrong?

I'd order from one of the US suppliers, if the shipping isn't ridiculous.

[nupi]

iHerb (best place to order from if you in Europe) now carries CR TAU and Superior Nutraceuticals has pretty decent shipping prices on their UMP, too.

[UnknownSuitor]

To those who have experimented with substantial amounts of Uridine supplementation I have a few questions regarding the effects:

Please go into detail regarding the supposedly common effect of "emotional dullness" and "overly focused", I for one am seeking these effects actually, so I am incredibly interested in any response I can receive regarding these supposed effects.

I have been diagnosed with ADHD-I, and I have sought to extremely dull my emotional response for a long time. This is a godsend to me. Also, this "Overly Focused" supposed effect, may I also mention that this would also be a godsend for my ADHD.

I also must ask; Mr. Happy, since you are what I gather must be the longest user of Uridine here, may I ask if the effects have dulled? If so can you quantify it? May I also ask if you have been taking Uridine daily?

Edited by UnknownSuitor, 29 January 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Raza]

People who are diagnosed on the autism spectrum already have higher levels of plasma uridine, as it is not being used for some of its normal functions. I've read some papers over the last year, or so, that suggest heavily that removing wheat and gluten from the diet of people suffering from autism makes a huge difference, as does supplementing methylfolate and methylcobalamin and increasing dietary cholesterol.

That's very interesting. When people talk about stuff 'helping with autism' I always wonder whether they're talking about just the drawbacks of the condition as a whole, though. It also comes with pronounced advantages that I wouldn't want to lose.

[Adaptogen]

That's very interesting. When people talk about stuff 'helping with autism' I always wonder whether they're talking about just the drawbacks of the condition as a whole, though. It also comes with pronounced advantages that I wouldn't want to lose.

What advantages have you noticed?

[Raza]

The increased capacity for processing detail is probably the biggest out of those clearly related to autism.

The reduced susceptibility to shame, peer pressure and the involuntary cultural diffusion of values and beliefs is a pretty big one too, although I'm not convinced you can fully keep this while re-activating your social-emotional awareness to overcome the penalty to social skills. Still, once you know what biases you should watch out for and identify with doing so, you can keep this up with training... just growing up without being brainwashed by local culture does a lot of the hard work.

Edited by Raza, 29 January 2013 - 11:11 PM.

[rakuz]

would it be advisable to not take L-theanine and caffeine along with this?

[Adaptogen]

The increased capacity for processing detail is probably the biggest out of those clearly related to autism.

The reduced susceptibility to shame, peer pressure and the involuntary cultural diffusion of values and beliefs is a pretty big one too, although I'm not convinced you can fully keep this while re-activating your social-emotional awareness to overcome the penalty to social skills. Still, once you know what biases you should watch out for and identify with doing so, you can keep this up with training... just growing up without being brainwashed by local culture does a lot of the hard work.

That is very interesting. I had never really heard that before, but it all makes sense. Do you know anything else about this? I would really like to read more on the subject.

Do you believe personality traits cause the diagnosis of autism or does autism cause these traits?

[kevinseven11]

Theanine is overrated. It reduces memory by means of inhibiting AMPA receptors.
The dose of UMP is supposed to be 600mg(souvenaid)
Some people don't get effects because they don't use enough.
BTW Souvenaid is released!! YAY

[riloal]

Hi, i would like to ask to long term uridine users, if they had some kind of side effects like digestive problems, insomnia, hair loss or someone else? Thanks

[chung_pao]

On the supplementation with Choline and uridine:
Do you people who successfully use this stack experience an immediate effect, or is it more of a long-term gain that you experience?

I find that Uridine and any Choline (CDP, Bitartrate or GPC) makes me dull and sleepy.

CDP choline is supposed to be great for dopamine levels; Wiki:
"Citicoline enhances cellular communication by increasing the availability of neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and dopamine.^["

What I am experiencing is the opposite of increased catecholamines (referring to DA and NE).
So my assumption is that the increase in catecholamines occurs in the long term, from a mechanism like/similar to upregulation.

Am I right?

If CDP choline, uridine and DHA is causing an acute inhibition of catecholamines; is the increase in dopamine supposed to occur in the long term?
(I've tried DHA without the other ingredients and it has no acute psychoactive effect, just to make that exclusion)

I'm not criticizing, I'm just very curious because like anyone else, I want what's best for my own and other's health.

Edited by chung_pao, 31 January 2013 - 12:23 AM.

[bobz1lla]

Hi there. Decided to register with the forum after lurking for a couple weeks. This topic in particular has peaked my interest, and I've decided to start my stack, following MrMan's guidelines:

Stack:
EveryMan Multi (NewChapter)
180mg Silybum (Jarrow, occasional usage)
430iu Vitamin E (mixed toco, NOW)
----
150mg UMP (oral, twice a day, may increase later)
1200dha/400epa (3:1 - Carlson + VitalChoice)
2 morning eggs (choline, pasture raised egg for nutrients)

Later:
Alpha-gpc (unless someone has good cause why cdp is preferred)

Questions:
I have some questions, intended for anyone to chime in:

Bump the DHA? whats the consensus gold ratio? I've read anywhere from 2:1 to 5:1 (dha/epa)

MrMan used to recommended 1000iu Vit E, did this idea change down to 500 range?

Early in the thread, specific B vitamins were mentioned, 6,9,12, etc. As far as I know they all work together so if one is deficient, another will pickup the slack. Do you think an extra B-complex or extra specific Bs would help with the uridine combo? Or is it just overkill?(unless your brain is really burning those B vitamins lol, or you are deficient with diet) I was thinking a good multi-vitamin with 100% RDI would work fine. I would think a Paleo diet would be highly synergistic and cover all the B bases.(pasture based meats + organic veggies, fruits, nuts)

Also Calcium was mentioned earlier. Anyone familiar with how it is used with the uridine combo? Or brain in general. My multi lacks it, so I was thinking of amping up the Milk/Cheese.

Magnesium† (80% cultured; 20% from Algae‡) 10 mg 2%RDI
I'm guessing I need a bit more Magnesium for daily supp?(in case diet doesn't cover it for that day, RDI ok?)

Someone on reddit mentioned you would need huge quantities of choline or alcar, to really see the best benefits; any truth to this? I was dismissive of his notions because they didn't elaborate. I remember a post where MrMan mentioned proper uridine to choline ratio. I believe the process was heavily in favor of uridine once inside the brain, so this would mean more choline ingested to balance? Kind of makes sense if a bunch of choline is needed to fuel the uridine/dha in the brain.

Any mid or long term users noticed any tolerance build up with uridine/dha/choline? This is especially important, and it seemed the jury is still out on NGF body tolerance, but seemed like most agreed it should have diminishing returns with chronic increase. Same with dopa levels I'm guessing? I remember where MrMan cited a uridine study on elderly where on the 11th sober day, their dopamine levels had returned to 100% base. So this would give a clue on total days needed to return to baseline, but tolerance level is another ballgame. Any mid/long term users had good success with an on/off schedule?

I've heard good things about phosphatidylserine, anyone know if it has synergistic properties with a uridine/choline/dha stack? I believe it's a building block for cell membrane.

Edited by bobz1lla, 01 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Guardian4981]

As an update

I tried using SAMe with uridine, the results were better then without the SAMe, but I still felt my dopamine was too low. I am not sure what has caused my "baselines" to change in that over the past 5 years it seems I have shifted from having too low of serotonon to having too low of dopamine. My anxiety has diminished greatly overall however my motivation has went down.

As mentioned in prior posts, I had/have mild hypothyroid, I believe I have successfulyl mitigates this through the use of Thyroid glandular, selenium, and periodic ashwaghanda. I plan on dropping the ashwaghanda when I run out because it tends to leave me feeling to lazy from the gaba influence. I have also tried adding forskollin, which seems to be of some benefit though I get slight headache at times from its dilatory actions.

I also feel that I have slight anemia, I believe this has been caused from abusing too much zinc last year. I also theorize that many of the anti D supplements I have used play a role, it appears substances which influence serotonin tend to also influence calcium in the body, and calcium can disrupt iron utilization. I have been using blackstrap mollasses with iron and my mild anemia symptoms seem to be abating.

My next uridine trial I am considering to run with cordyceps. Cordyceps historically has given me the biggest dopamine boost of anything I have used, I have read cordyceps seems to improve tyrosine utilization, not only does it increase dopamine it also seems to boost the thyroid. In the past i have had to stop cordyceps because it gave me difficulty falling to sleep and also raised my anxiety. But since my anxiety seems to be down I may try it again, taking it first thing when waking up. I also am interested how it will work with uridine, perhaps serotonin and dopamine can be increased together.

[bobz1lla]

"Additional study and testing includes the use of uridine in combination with omega 3 fatty acids, cytidine, and choline to help prevent age-related dementia. A team of researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) has found that these nutrients stimulate the production of phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylserine. While virtually every cell in the body requires these two phospholipids for normal functioning, they are critical for neurotransmission in the brain. In addition, Turkish scientists have further found that supplementation exhibits these effects without diminishing acetylcholine release, a characteristic associated with age-related dementia."

So would phosphatidylserine supps be beneficial... or mostly a waste. Adding extra may just increase tolerance levels over time...

Edited by bobz1lla, 01 February 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[jerichodotm]

Damn.. I'm on page 27 and the thread keeps going and going and going. I just ordered some. Hopefully I don't find out at the end of the thread that everyone died taking this stuff.

[Adaptogen]

does anyone take lithium alongside uridine?

Edited by Adaptogen, 03 February 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[jerichodotm]

Anyone have thoughts on combining Modafinil with Uridine?

A VERY brief history: I went through some very dark times about 10 years ago and have been taking an SSRI for the majority of that time. I have been on Klonopin for about 3 years and also prescribed Ritalin nearly 10 years ago and took it off and on for about 5 years but I now take it solely for it's help (ironic) with motivation an energy purposes. I now know (or at least believe) I am chasing a dragon with that one.

I've been able to get my Lexapro down from 20mg to 5mg, Klonopin down from 2mg to .5 mg, however, my Ritalin usage still remains at 40mg/day. In the few days I've been taking Modafinil (combined with Apha GPC and L-Tyrosine) I haven't been counting the hours looking forward to my next Ritalin dose and I'm hoping this will help me reduce then eliminate Ritalin from my life.

I'm not overly depressed or anxious on a daily basis although I have my moments. My main problem is I'm just drained most of the time and nothing is all that enjoyable. . Saying that, I do feel my social anxiety if I go to a group event and sometimes find myself avoiding people at work but it's not as overwhelming as it once was. I used to be terrified on going on a cruise or a party w/o drinking or getting high, now I don't think I would be overly anxious I just don't want to go, if that makes any sense.

My current stack:

Opti-Men Multi x 3 pills
Nordic Naturals Omegas -x 3 pills
Vitamin C - 500mg x 2
Vitamin D - 500 IU x 2
Lexpro - 5mg
Klonopin - .5mg
Ritalin - 10mg x 4

I added these 3 in the past few days in hopes of finding the right combo to get off Klonopin, SSRI and Ritalin.
Alpha GPC - 600mg x 2
L-Tyrosine - 500mg x 2
Modanfil - 50mg x 2
Calcium -1000mg x 2
Magnesium 500mg x 2

A supplement that did seem to work for me was Phenibut but I got caught up in it's black hole once and decided never to take it again.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks

Edited by jerichodotm, 03 February 2013 - 08:15 PM.

[bobz1lla]

Most of my earlier questions have been answered about 2/3 of the way through the thread. Damn long thread, with lots of filler comments.

Using: Ecological Formulas 300mg capsule divided in half(eyeballed), dispersed in cup of water.

Day1 experience: UMP 150mg oral (morning): Noticed a distinct elevated good mood earlier, with slight euphoria transitioning to general good mood. A few stressful situations didn't seem to phase me. Faint sweetness taste in body/saliva, but may be attributed to food. Placebo effect always a possibility.

Edited by bobz1lla, 05 February 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Adaptogen]

What is the reason that people are not taking their uridine sublingually? No milligram scale?


edit: this question was answered just one page before...knew it sounded familiar

Edited by Adaptogen, 05 February 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Hope47]

Guys,i am going to try Triacetyluridine.Any idea on what route of ingestion(oral/sublingual) to follow.These are the products so far i have decided.


1-Cardiovascular Research Ltd., Uridine

2- Healthy Origins, E-1000, 100% Natural Mixed Tocopherols

3- Jarrow Formulas, Alpha GPC 300, 300 mg

4- Life Extension, Super Omega-3, EPA/DHA with Sesame Lignans & Olive Fruit Extract

5- Jarrow Formulas, B-Right

Edited by Hope47, 05 February 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Raza]

TAU doesn't absorb sublingually, so for that you're stuck with oral.

Well, you could try with a spoon of coconut oil for it to dissolve in, maybe. That appears to absorb in the mouth, although it might just be dissolving in saliva and trickling back.

[Raza]

The increased capacity for processing detail is probably the biggest out of those clearly related to autism.

The reduced susceptibility to shame, peer pressure and the involuntary cultural diffusion of values and beliefs is a pretty big one too, although I'm not convinced you can fully keep this while re-activating your social-emotional awareness to overcome the penalty to social skills. Still, once you know what biases you should watch out for and identify with doing so, you can keep this up with training... just growing up without being brainwashed by local culture does a lot of the hard work.

That is very interesting. I had never really heard that before, but it all makes sense. Do you know anything else about this? I would really like to read more on the subject.

Do you believe personality traits cause the diagnosis of autism or does autism cause these traits?

Autism definitely causes personality traits, but it's not the only possible source of those traits, so I'm sure it happens the other way around by error, too.

What I've pieced together from reading and introversion is that most of the best-known autistic traits - the drawbacks that get it diagnosed - are really secondary symptoms. At least for high-functioning autism/aspergers/PDD-NOS, predisposition seems to stem from one or more genes that also predict high intelligence/neuroplasticity, which while off-and-by-themselves beneficial render one unusually vulnerable to environmental/prenatal toxins or (even mildly) stressful social conditions during development.

The whole social handicap/not feeling connected thread of symptoms, which also includes the benefits of shamelessness and cultural resistance, results from the shutting down (during early development) of brain areas responsible for all the ways in which neurotypical humans respond to each other as more than basic environmental information, because processing intense/stresfull social situations with these extra senses active can be highly stressfull. For some autistic people (like me), this thread of sympoms can be partially or wholly remidied by activating and developing the oxytocinergic system later in life, while others can't take any substance that encourages this without immediately experiencing anxiety in social situations again.

Other sympons - rocking, extreme habitualism, that sort of thing - are hypothesised to also be acquired stress-reducing coping mechanisms, although it is unclear whether the stress that requires these stems from the initial condition or the absence of normal levels of oxytocinergic anxiolysis. The general theme, however, seems to be that processing the world stress-free required a narrowing down of the experiential stream, manifesting itself in a variety of ways. Mycotoxins have been implicated as well, which makes sense because they're known to cause pathologically increased glutamate sensitivity, which in turn connects to information processing and anxiety.

My best guess is that the high detail processing and above-average IQs are the only truly primary symptoms, and that there may in fact be a lot of mostly symptom-free people who are 'genetically autistic' in the general population who aren't getting the diagnosis because they're not suffering from anything.

But, take all that with a grain of salt. I haven't really researched it much, just built an image while living life and reading whatever I happened across.

Edited by Raza, 06 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[alecnevsky]

On the supplementation with Choline and uridine:
Do you people who successfully use this stack experience an immediate effect, or is it more of a long-term gain that you experience?

I find that Uridine and any Choline (CDP, Bitartrate or GPC) makes me dull and sleepy.

CDP choline is supposed to be great for dopamine levels; Wiki:
"Citicoline enhances cellular communication by increasing the availability of neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and dopamine.^["

What I am experiencing is the opposite of increased catecholamines (referring to DA and NE).
So my assumption is that the increase in catecholamines occurs in the long term, from a mechanism like/similar to upregulation.

Am I right?

If CDP choline, uridine and DHA is causing an acute inhibition of catecholamines; is the increase in dopamine supposed to occur in the long term?
(I've tried DHA without the other ingredients and it has no acute psychoactive effect, just to make that exclusion)

I'm not criticizing, I'm just very curious because like anyone else, I want what's best for my own and other's health.

I asked about this earlier in the thread. Uridine is a DA modulator (look for the main article around the time of my last post in this thread.) It brings people back up to baseline. "Up" because some people are deficient. If you respond well to DA precursors and supplement piracetam with glutamine (not to mention occasional armodafinil and/or other psycho-stimulants like phenylpiracetam,) taking uridine would not be immediately useful. I do still however take pram+ani+sulb+uridine(tau)+choline+dha at night and sleep very well indeed. So I do NMDA/DA precursors 8-20 hr and then AMPA / DA modulation 20-8hr. I am in school so I cannot afford to be sleepy during the day and sleep is crucial for exam performance so I cannot afford not to sleep as well. I've tested this all last semester (check my thread history.) I think I may try UMP since those guys from MIT cannot go wrong with the Souvenaid. Still, I cannot confidently attest to any noticeable effects of my entire night regimen. I am always getting better and thinking faster but that's probably because I am in school and taking courses that are consistently more challenging. Again, I don't even know if people in early 20s should be taking any of this. My roommates think I am the dude off of Breaking Bad.

[Optimism]

On the supplementation with Choline and uridine:
Do you people who successfully use this stack experience an immediate effect, or is it more of a long-term gain that you experience?

I find that Uridine and any Choline (CDP, Bitartrate or GPC) makes me dull and sleepy.

CDP choline is supposed to be great for dopamine levels; Wiki:
"Citicoline enhances cellular communication by increasing the availability of neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and dopamine.^["

What I am experiencing is the opposite of increased catecholamines (referring to DA and NE).
So my assumption is that the increase in catecholamines occurs in the long term, from a mechanism like/similar to upregulation.

Am I right?

If CDP choline, uridine and DHA is causing an acute inhibition of catecholamines; is the increase in dopamine supposed to occur in the long term?
(I've tried DHA without the other ingredients and it has no acute psychoactive effect, just to make that exclusion)

I'm not criticizing, I'm just very curious because like anyone else, I want what's best for my own and other's health.

I think I may try UMP since those guys from MIT cannot go wrong with the Souvenaid.

Is there any news on Souvenaid? Because not even the official website is working for me.

It has DHA Omega 3/UMP Uridine/Choline in it, so maybe this is the shit we've all been waiting for.

[MrHappy]

To those who have experimented with substantial amounts of Uridine supplementation I have a few questions regarding the effects:

Please go into detail regarding the supposedly common effect of "emotional dullness" and "overly focused", I for one am seeking these effects actually, so I am incredibly interested in any response I can receive regarding these supposed effects.

I have been diagnosed with ADHD-I, and I have sought to extremely dull my emotional response for a long time. This is a godsend to me. Also, this "Overly Focused" supposed effect, may I also mention that this would also be a godsend for my ADHD.

I also must ask; Mr. Happy, since you are what I gather must be the longest user of Uridine here, may I ask if the effects have dulled? If so can you quantify it? May I also ask if you have been taking Uridine daily?

If I take large doses, I tend to be rather zen-like and emotionally dulled. I generally try to avoid that, with occasional intentional high doses if I predict an insanely high-pressure day arising. I'm not aware of a tolerance to the high doses, but I really haven't explored that for an extended period.

[MrHappy]

On the supplementation with Choline and uridine:
Do you people who successfully use this stack experience an immediate effect, or is it more of a long-term gain that you experience?

I find that Uridine and any Choline (CDP, Bitartrate or GPC) makes me dull and sleepy.

CDP choline is supposed to be great for dopamine levels; Wiki:
"Citicoline enhances cellular communication by increasing the availability of neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine, norepinephrine, and dopamine.^["

What I am experiencing is the opposite of increased catecholamines (referring to DA and NE).
So my assumption is that the increase in catecholamines occurs in the long term, from a mechanism like/similar to upregulation.

Am I right?

If CDP choline, uridine and DHA is causing an acute inhibition of catecholamines; is the increase in dopamine supposed to occur in the long term?
(I've tried DHA without the other ingredients and it has no acute psychoactive effect, just to make that exclusion)

I'm not criticizing, I'm just very curious because like anyone else, I want what's best for my own and other's health.

I think I may try UMP since those guys from MIT cannot go wrong with the Souvenaid.

Is there any news on Souvenaid? Because not even the official website is working for me.

It has DHA Omega 3/UMP Uridine/Choline in it, so maybe this is the shit we've all been waiting for.

Tham posted some helpful Souvenaid links in the Alzheimer's thread:

Fortasyn Connect, or Souvenaid.


A specific multi-nutrient diet reduces Alzheimer-like pathology
in young adult AβPPswe/PS1dE9 mice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22914588



" Nutricia Launches Breakthrough Once-a-Day Drink for People
with Early Alzheimer's Disease "

http://www.sys-con.com/node/2510394


" A glimmer of hope for dementia sufferers "

http://www.telegraph...-sufferers.html



" 'Brain-boosting' shake goes on sale "

Read more: http://www.belfastte...S#ixzz2JJjDBkXT



" Souvenaid memory drink: Europeans first for taste of
Boston invention, N. Americans next "

http://blogs.vancouv...americans-next/

[penisbreath]

Does Uridine agitate anyone? I'm taking one cap a day of this stuff (http://www.iherb.com...-Capsules/42569) with about 1000mg of Perilla Oil as a DHA/EPA source.

Been feeling quite agitated lately -- it might just be depression-related, but was worried Uridine might be a contributing factor.

[Judd Crane]

Does anyone have any experience or theories regarding the use of cocaine or amphetamines while being 'on' uridine?

Edited by Jontelito, 10 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[killshot]

@lucky

I wondered the same thing, I felt more aggitated than normal. I cut my does in half and it seemed to help.

Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk 2

Edited by killshot, 10 February 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Renegade]

The benefits of uridine look so promising. I'd love to be able to take it.

Unfortunately, 25mg TAU gave me SIGNIFICANT irritability and a spaced out feeling. Does anyone have any recommendations? Does this sound like over methylation or could it be something else? If its over methylation, what is the solution, as I'm a little lost on the whole subject.

I'm determined to get to the bottom of this! Thanks

@lucky

I wondered the same thing, I felt more aggitated than normal. I cut my does in half and it seemed to help.

Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk 2

How much did you cut down to?

Edited by Renegade, 10 February 2013 - 07:53 PM.