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GPC (choline), Uridine, DHA

choline uridine dha omega-3 epa ump tau b vitamins

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#1981 blueinfinity

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:48 AM

Be prepared for sulfur depletion(according to http://www.neurosupport.com/ look at their studies(search their studies for cysteine), and according to me - personal experience). In short, anything that increases catecholamine synthesis increases the need for sulfur. This is because the enzymes needed for catecholamine production need sulfur to be built themselves. Also it is possible that increased catecholamine levels make the body require more glutathione which itself needs sulfur.


Thanks, checked it up and ordered some Sulfur! Now i dont know about using L-tyrosine long-term more than it could lead to downregulation of dopamine receptors, dont want that. Do you (or anyone) have a clue of how i could supplement this without causing myself trouble in dopamine area? Personally, i mostly feel that Tyrosine works great for me when taken on empty stomach.

I've also heard that bacopa is bad for men, in that is has studies showing shrinkage of male reproductive areas. Needless to say, i immediately cut that out of my regime, but i do take ashwaganda and tulsi (holy basil) nightly - [gaia herbs, adrenal support/stress response] <same product two different names/marketing>
and that seems to have effect some days, and other days not so much... anyone else getting this?


I can attest to this, i havnt had much desire to engage in sexual activities since i've included Bacopa in my regime. Didnt do my research properly enough! Shame since i've been on it for atleast 4 months, and prior to the montly break i had before that; maybe 4 months aswell. Will see how it works out now that i've cut it out.



Where did you get your sulfur and how much are you taking?

What effects do you get from tyrosine, heard about it hear and there, just not sure if its something i should add to my daily or weekly/monthly regimen

Ive found that the bacopa did lessen my sex drive, and desire, including amount of semen produced. Even after stopping, now it might be in my head, because i read how damaging it is to testicles and other nether regions but taking lecithin and quality maca powder and Im not quite 100% up to par on drive, but ejaculations are relatively back to normal production

Edited by blueinfinity, 12 May 2013 - 04:49 AM.


#1982 BioFreak

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:19 AM

Get l-cysteine. The authors that did much research on amino acid therapy use 4500mg cysteine daily in their patients (more did not help).
you can also add acetyl-l-cysteine, but not replace cysteine with it as it does not contribute directly to the sulfur cylce. You also need to take selenium(400mcg) for possible brain toxicity (cysteine is also a chelator, able to cross the bbb). I like to add zinc for the same purpose as selenium, but thats not backed by the neuroassist researchers. Note that this is beneficial no matter if you use tyrosine, phenylalanine(to a lesser extend), mucuna pruriens seed powder, mucuna seed extract, or l-dopa. It may also make sense if you take some sort of dopamine reuptake inhibitor(not sure about that one, since I do not exactly know if dopamine is toxic when localized extracellular, intracellular, or both. Anyone knows this?).

Basically what you can expect from tyrosine is what you would get from higher dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline, just to a smaller extend because your body won't allow you to raise catecholamines indefinitely. Its a individual reaction, depending on a lot of factors, so you may have to try and see what happens, to know what it does for you. There is always the possible tradeoff between increased dopaminergic action and toxicity (at least at higher dosages), though.

But I'm getting far too OT in this thread.

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#1983 Nordmann

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

Thank you very much for this thread Mr. Happy. I`ve been following it on and off for about a year. :)

I have some question for you and the other guys on this thread. I`ll ramble on, and you should answer what you want.

I tried RNA, CDP Choline and fish oil stack for some weeks and enjoyed some benefits, but was scared off when I read about gout.
I lift heavy weights and train mma, so gout is not a desired illness. I lost interest a while but now it`s back.

Bought 25g on ebay now and willing to go for a long run.
http://www.ebay.com/...984.m1439.l2649
Anyone bought from this company before?

I also bought 100g Alpha GPC from another vendor.

I don`t use nicotine, I only drink coffee before training, but I really enjoy my green tea. Both for the taste and the benefits of the EGCG, 1-3 cups.
I can drop the coffee, but would you recommend dropping the green tea as well?

How will it interfere with alcohol, alcohol related drugs, weed? I don`t use alcohol related drugs anymore, but I`m not ruling it out. Summer and music festivals are around the corner.

Could it affect training somehow? I know Alpha GPC slightly increase HGH, but will it have any effect?

I`m very sensitive to choline, I`m almost never depressed but if I take too much choline I will get in a depressive state that day. I don`t feel I really need it with racetams either, I rarely get headaches. Last time I only took CDP Choline every other day.
Is this a sign of some kind?

Is every racetam stackable with Uridine? And is some better than others?

Is there other stuff that mix well with the Uridine stack? Ginkgo, Ginseng, Rhodolia, Q10, Glutamine, Cysteine, Noopept, C vitamin++

I already take a multi, B50 complex every other day, ZMA on training days, D-Vitamin, Calcium, Creatine and B12 occasionally.

School is soon over for the summer, but many hard year still awaits.

#1984 Guardian4981

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:48 PM

Anders Jonassen

If you rarely get depressed why would you want to take this stack? To feel even more better?

#1985 peakplasma

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

Anders Jonassen

If you rarely get depressed why would you want to take this stack? To feel even more better?

What? There are other benefits besides the antidepressant effect. It's a marketed formula for mild alzheimer's for christsakes.

#1986 Nordmann

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:25 PM

Well there are other benefits mention on the first page such as stress, learning and memory, general cognitive decline, cardiovascular health, neural bloodflow.

What I`m generally after is something that make my brain function on a stable level all day, no fatigue or lethargy. Better my concentration and maybe amp some motivation.

I have had 10 quite intense years with alcohol, nicotine and drugs abuse. And literally hard blows to my head, been in a lot of fights. Sounds stupid I know.
I have developed something Aphasia`ish. I forget words very often, so bad it impairs me sometimes, and that again develops into anxiety. And everything starts rolling.

Piracetam helped me quite a lot on this subject. I don`t need Piracetam anymore, It seems like a long time effect, I still enjoy a Piracetam buzz, but it is illegal here, or prescription. Asked my doctor for piracetam, but she didn`t even care to look into it.

I`m not quite sure but I think/hope Uridine will refresh up some of my brain chemistry, and put me back on my brains real age.

#1987 alecnevsky

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:56 PM

Man, sublingual ump really works for getting your shit together (>=250mg). And, vis-a-vis armodafinil, it's a lot cheaper per dose, and does not ruin your sleep. Great for day-time, non-sleep-deprived productivity. I think I'd still go into armo-overdrive if I were pulling an allnighter however.


Edit: Had it with coffee today though-- which I then discovered 2 pages ago is taboo --[the experience] definitely corroborates the paradoxical anxiety (usually ump just gives you wonderful analytic confidence.)

Edited by alecnevsky, 13 May 2013 - 09:02 PM.


#1988 blueinfinity

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:23 AM

Get l-cysteine. The authors that did much research on amino acid therapy use 4500mg cysteine daily in their patients (more did not help).
you can also add acetyl-l-cysteine, but not replace cysteine with it as it does not contribute directly to the sulfur cylce. You also need to take selenium(400mcg) for possible brain toxicity (cysteine is also a chelator, able to cross the bbb). I like to add zinc for the same purpose as selenium, but thats not backed by the neuroassist researchers. Note that this is beneficial no matter if you use tyrosine, phenylalanine(to a lesser extend), mucuna pruriens seed powder, mucuna seed extract, or l-dopa. It may also make sense if you take some sort of dopamine reuptake inhibitor(not sure about that one, since I do not exactly know if dopamine is toxic when localized extracellular, intracellular, or both. Anyone knows this?).

Basically what you can expect from tyrosine is what you would get from higher dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline, just to a smaller extend because your body won't allow you to raise catecholamines indefinitely. Its a individual reaction, depending on a lot of factors, so you may have to try and see what happens, to know what it does for you. There is always the possible tradeoff between increased dopaminergic action and toxicity (at least at higher dosages), though.

But I'm getting far too OT in this thread.


ok so how much and how often should we be taking l-cysteine with the standard stackrecommended in OP?

and you are taking the l-cysteine is what you meant when you said you were taking sulfur?

is anyone taking racetams with this stack, and what are your experiences? Im guessing its better to just start this stack first and then later add racetams

Edited by blueinfinity, 14 May 2013 - 06:28 AM.


#1989 Chadwick

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:12 PM

Through which mechanisms do uridine upregulate dopamine receptors? I'm curious because I get great effects from uridine but build tolerance to it in about two weeks. I've used it during a few periods the last year and the pattern is consistent. It's almost as if I get the dopamine release but without receptor upregulation.

I'm currently also on ~600 mg DHA, ~900 mg EPA, 25 mg zinc, 500 mg ALCAR, 5000 iu vitamin D and a B complex every day. I'm not consuming caffeine or any other stimulants.

Edited by Chadwick, 15 May 2013 - 09:14 PM.


#1990 flurr

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:46 AM


What effects do you get from tyrosine, heard about it hear and there, just not sure if its something i should add to my daily or weekly/monthly regimen



First time i took it, it felt like light amphetamines for me - no kidding. Just took 1g on empty stomach, i couldnt stop talking and felt pretty great. My motivation was way up aswell as my anxiety which was way lower. But this edge to it disappeared after some days of continous use. Now it just makes me a bit more motivated, or "on" which is very welcome at work or when you need to be productive, i've been thinking of my dopamine levels and they may have been somewhat low or unbalanced before this stack. Anyways, i guess the Uridine itself is enough to elevate/stabilize your dopamine levels. Recently i've feel even more dopamine based effects from taking this stack.


Get l-cysteine. The authors that did much research on amino acid therapy use 4500mg cysteine daily in their patients (more did not help).
you can also add acetyl-l-cysteine, but not replace cysteine with it as it does not contribute directly to the sulfur cylce. You also need to take selenium(400mcg) for possible brain toxicity (cysteine is also a chelator, able to cross the bbb). I like to add zinc for the same purpose as selenium, but thats not backed by the neuroassist researchers. Note that this is beneficial no matter if you use tyrosine, phenylalanine(to a lesser extend), mucuna pruriens seed powder, mucuna seed extract, or l-dopa. It may also make sense if you take some sort of dopamine reuptake inhibitor(not sure about that one, since I do not exactly know if dopamine is toxic when localized extracellular, intracellular, or both. Anyone knows this?).

Basically what you can expect from tyrosine is what you would get from higher dopamine, adrenaline and noradrenaline, just to a smaller extend because your body won't allow you to raise catecholamines indefinitely. Its a individual reaction, depending on a lot of factors, so you may have to try and see what happens, to know what it does for you. There is always the possible tradeoff between increased dopaminergic action and toxicity (at least at higher dosages), though.

But I'm getting far too OT in this thread.


I got Selenium on my way but I've already ordered MSM-Sulfur from Jarrows. Will this work instead of l-cysteine?

A question i would like to raise is whether Maca can be taken with the Uridine stack, anyone had any troubles with this?

#1991 blueinfinity

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:58 AM

First time i took it, it felt like light amphetamines for me - no kidding. Just took 1g on empty stomach, i couldnt stop talking and felt pretty great. My motivation was way up aswell as my anxiety which was way lower. But this edge to it disappeared after some days of continous use. Now it just makes me a bit more motivated, or "on" which is very welcome at work or when you need to be productive, i've been thinking of my dopamine levels and they may have been somewhat low or unbalanced before this stack. Anyways, i guess the Uridine itself is enough to elevate/stabilize your dopamine levels. Recently i've feel even more dopamine based effects from taking this stack.

I will have to give this a try too, but also concerned as i already had my dopamine messed up from repeated years of cannabis abuse

A question i would like to raise is whether Maca can be taken with the Uridine stack, anyone had any troubles with this?


I take maca, and am interested in this also, i do not see why it would, but then again there are a lot of questions scientists cannot fully explain around adaptogens but our body, for the most part, does seem to handle adaptogens very well in that the uptake of only necessary/require nutrients, and the rest left to pass through our system, Id like to hear a more knowledgeable opinion

#1992 DamnedOwl

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:34 AM

Through which mechanisms do uridine upregulate dopamine receptors? I'm curious because I get great effects from uridine but build tolerance to it in about two weeks. I've used it during a few periods the last year and the pattern is consistent. It's almost as if I get the dopamine release but without receptor upregulation.

I'm currently also on ~600 mg DHA, ~900 mg EPA, 25 mg zinc, 500 mg ALCAR, 5000 iu vitamin D and a B complex every day. I'm not consuming caffeine or any other stimulants.


I have a similar problem with this stack being apparently less effective after a while, and so I'm currently trying to tweak the amounts I take in order to get something more stable.

I have only found that taking tyrosine before the uridine to make a difference so far. If I don't take tyrosine or if I take it after the uridine then I either don't get any kind of noticeable effect from this stack, or I even get a slight brain fog.

Do you take the uridine orally or sublingually? I've only been taking it sublingually so far at single doses of either 75, 100, or 150mg twice a day. Given the supposed increase in potency of the sublingual route, all of these doses could be said to be on the high side, so my next course of action will be to either take the uridine orally or just take smaller amounts sublingually. I notice that vitamin E is also missing from your list.

Also, have you tried to different DHA:EPA ratios? The Souvenaid formula, for example, has a 4:1 (DHA:EPA) ratio. Maybe this would make a difference. It's something I'm also considering tweaking anyway because my DHA:EPA ratio is 1:2. Still, some will say the ratio balance isn't particularly important.

#1993 UnknownSuitor

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:41 AM


I can't seem to dose Uridine...


I put the powder in my mouth. The powder sticks. Now that the powder in my mouth, I put my tongue down and as soon as saliva hits it...It just spreads all across my mouth...Now how exactly am I supposed to insure that the powder stays under my tongue.

I seriously needs to some serious tips, I understand more than basic form for dosing powder...I have read threads on it. But all those tips are worthless as soon as the powder is in my mouth.


I really want to save on UMP.


#1994 DamnedOwl

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:54 AM

I can't seem to dose Uridine...

I put the powder in my mouth. The powder sticks. Now that the powder in my mouth, I put my tongue down and as soon as saliva hits it...It just spreads all across my mouth...Now how exactly am I supposed to insure that the powder stays under my tongue.
I seriously needs to some serious tips, I understand more than basic form for dosing powder...I have read threads on it. But all those tips are worthless as soon as the powder is in my mouth.

I really want to save on UMP.

Yeah, I found getting the UMP actually under the tongue really tricky at first too.

I managed it in the end though by developing a technique whereby after weighing out the dose I make sure I put it on a small lip-less tray, hold my tongue up, then tip the tray contents under the tongue. Most of it slides off the tray at this point, and then the rest of it I catch with the underside of my tongue as I bring it down onto the tray.

Basically, you just need to find yourself a suitably sized lip-less tray.

#1995 UnknownSuitor

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:06 AM

What exactly is a lipless tray, and how well has this been working for you, as far as dosing without worrying about powders everywhere?

P.S: What is your current exp with Uridine?

#1996 DamnedOwl

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:28 AM

What exactly is a lipless tray, and how well has this been working for you, as far as dosing without worrying about powders everywhere?

P.S: What is your current exp with Uridine?

Yes, perhaps lip-less tray isn't the most evocative description! All I mean is something that is flat with a surface that will allow the powder to slide off it easily. Mine is actually the metal platform from my digital scale here.

In terms of experiences with Uridine I'd say they've been initially excellent (for about 7-10 days) but then it began to wane. Increased motivation and focus - particularly focus had been main benefits for me. To be fair, I've still retained both of these to some degree, so I suspect the uridine is still having an effect, it's just that it's less noticeable. I also got a very definite uplift in mood too when I initially took it, but that hasn't returned, although, I'm personally less concerned about that anyway.

#1997 UnknownSuitor

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:43 AM

Thanks so much for your input into this, who knows how big a impact it will play on my next dosing.

As far as your exp goes:

In terms of experiences with Uridine I'd say they've been initially excellent (for about 7-10 days) but then it began to wane. Increased motivation and focus - particularly focus had been main benefits for me. To be fair, I've still retained both of these to some degree, so I suspect the uridine is still having an effect, it's just that it's less noticeable. I also got a very definite uplift in mood too when I initially took it, but that hasn't returned, although, I'm personally less concerned about that anyway.


How much of an impact do you currently feel in each area you think Uridine has made a change in. You said you focus, and motivation are improved, could you quantify it? Like 50% more concentration. etc etc, You get me.

Sorry for so many questions, I have been trying to create a PDF that simplifies this entire thread. Both the science, and the anecdotals. =)

#1998 DamnedOwl

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

Focus and motivation is difficult to quantify of course, but in any case perhaps a more useful way of putting it would be to say that before starting with the uridine I would be prone to prevaricating, whereas since I would say that this has been mostly eliminated. Mostly, I say, because there have been a few days where I was prevaricating, but otherwise absolutely not. To put some figures on it I would say perhaps if 3-4 days out of 7 there would be some prevaricating, now there would perhaps be only 1 out of 7 at most.

Furthermore, if I prevaricate now, it's actually a 'painful' experience, marked by a kind of agitation about not getting things done. I know that doesn't sound so great, but I consider it a very good thing. Before when I prevaricated I would be all too relaxed about it.

The increased motivation effects I've experienced with uridine are perhaps less easy to expand on. I also take modafinil which markedly improves motivation anyway, so perhaps it's all too easy to conflate the two, and furthermore, talking of conflating, perhaps it's all too easy to conflate motivation and focus as well. Still, in so far as motivation is that which brings the author to his desk and pick up his pen, and focus is that which sees him actually put pen to paper and write without interruption, I would say that uridine seems to have improved upon modafinil with regards to motivation.

#1999 BioFreak

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

ok so how much and how often should we be taking l-cysteine with the standard stackrecommended in OP?

and you are taking the l-cysteine is what you meant when you said you were taking sulfur?

is anyone taking racetams with this stack, and what are your experiences? Im guessing its better to just start this stack first and then later add racetams


Since the standard stack is uridine, dha, and a choline source, its not all that important. My reply was pointed at people taking dopamine precursors such as l-dopa or tyrosine. See, with amphetamines and catecholamine precursors you put a lot of stress on your system. Uridine on the other hand is not such a strong dopamine releasing agent as amphetamines (from my experience) so the stress put on the system should be a lot less too. However, its always good to do something against dopamine toxicity, high dose NAC seems to be a good bet. Sulfur in general should be repleted through a sulfur containing amino acid, cysteine, or methionine.
NAC on the other side does not directly contribute to the sulfur cycle but has its own benefits (i.e. reducing oxidative damage from dopamine)

First time i took it, it felt like light amphetamines for me - no kidding. Just took 1g on empty stomach, i couldnt stop talking and felt pretty great. My motivation was way up aswell as my anxiety which was way lower. But this edge to it disappeared after some days of continous use. Now it just makes me a bit more motivated, or "on" which is very welcome at work or when you need to be productive, i've been thinking of my dopamine levels and they may have been somewhat low or unbalanced before this stack. Anyways, i guess the Uridine itself is enough to elevate/stabilize your dopamine levels. Recently i've feel even more dopamine based effects from taking this stack.

I got Selenium on my way but I've already ordered MSM-Sulfur from Jarrows. Will this work instead of l-cysteine?

A question i would like to raise is whether Maca can be taken with the Uridine stack, anyone had any troubles with this?


No wonder. Your system was not used to be able to produce lots of dopamine due to the lack of precursors - so EVERYTHING was upregulated that is involved in production, and EVERYTHING was downregulated that is involved in reuptake / degradation.

So basically your effect was the same like that of amphetamines, because the chemistry was the same -> lots of free dopamine floating around the brain (and lots of adrenaline and noradrenaline probably also)

Of course the brain will downregulate to keep dopamine levels in check fairly quickly(in case of tyrosine primarily through tyrosine hydroxylase), with additional downregulation through depletion of sulfur and probably other cofactors and therefore important enzymes and glutathione.

It is not only a matter of keeping dopamine levels at a "normal" level so the brain won't have to deal with side effects from too much dopamine (psychosis anyone?), its also a matter of protecting the brain from oxidative damage due to too much dopamine.

And this is the main problem with dopamine(and or its metabolites): not enough and the brain does not work properly, too much, and oxidative stress increases. But since many people need more dopamine to function normally then they should (from a view of oxidative stress) they have the choice: More dopamine, a working brain, AND too much oxidative damage, or no working brain, no oxidative damage. That choice kinda sucks so the main effort besides raising dopamine to functionally adequate levels should lie in protecting from its toxic properties. I would like to point out that ANY substance that raises dopamine will increase toxicity and lead to possible long term health problems without additional protection. That means ANY precursor of dopamine, ANY dopamine releasing agent (amphetamines such as ritalin etc), ANY dopamine reuptake inhibitors. So the STRONGER the effect, the higher dopamine levels in your brain should be, and the stronger toxic effects will be. Substances that slow down the degradation of dopamine may provide some benefit though, since it is speculated that metabolites are also toxic.

MSM is an inadequate source of sulfur for the intention of contributing sulfur to the sulfur cycle, but it has its benefits serving as a methyl donor so it is not a waste of money. See, the sulfur in MSM first needs to be used to build sulfur containing amino acids which then can be used by the sulfur cycle directly. So you are at least 1 step( don't know how many steps exactly) further away from archiving your goal then with l-cysteine.

I'd like to add again that the folks from neuroassist who invented that protocol use 400mcg selenium to counteract any possible problems from the ability of cysteine to transport heavy metals across the bbb. Adding Zinc might be a good idea too because it too can chelate heavy metals.
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#2000 alecnevsky

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:23 PM

I dose like 350mg-400mg ump+ 600mg agpc + 1200mg dha . It's nothing compared to adderall or armodafinil in terms of "dopamine" rush.

#2001 hani

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:12 PM

It seems like uridine solved my insomnia problem. I've been sleeping well since I started taking it. I was wondering, what are the benefits of stacking choline with uridine?

#2002 violetechos

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:26 AM

Whats the consenseus about uridine affecting virus levels ? I have read studies implying that it is helpful in HIV mitrochondrial energy problems, but raises HCV (hepatits c) virus levels by basically acting as a cofactor in their growth cycle.

#2003 alecnevsky

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

...just to mention: 300mg ump + Armodafinil taken together is nothing spectacular, if not unproductive. 75mg at at time produces more anxiety than taking 150mg at once. 9hrs into it, I completely hit the wall. Granted, I mixed in a few other "cofactors" at 9hr mark (15mg sunifiram + 400mg agpc +3g creatine ) -- dosing this on top of everything else produced virtually no cognitive or physical boost. In fact, I suspected the crash is harder post Suni than it is form just ump + armo. But re: ump+armo, nothing better to report insofar as endurance and performance than armo alone.
This comes as no surprise, (and I just had to reconvince myself in practice after discovering great subjectively-assessed effects of uridine,) that uridine, while having some stimulating effects alone, in conj with stim agents (amph, mod etc.) modulates the stim effects and seemingly deteriorates their effective half-life(s). So yeah ump+armo is prob not dangerous (unless someone has evidence to argue otherwise,) but is essentially missing the point.

In comparison, armo + phenylpiracetam/ armo + aniracetam actually works out quite well (holding whatever mess it does in your head constant.) On performance/endurance plots, it seems armo+pp > armo+ani/pram > armo alone > armo + uridine.

I am very very pleased with uridine on its own however. I've been dosing like 200mg for months and didn't feel anything subjectively until I bumped it to 350-400mg. I need to do some cambsciences to benchmark it. I cannot believe i used to take this to fall "asleep." This would have been gold before exams. The problem with ump though is that it won't let you mess with the circ rhythms (allowing brain to rest on demand etc.) so the window for memory/executive testing is not as liberal as armo + whatever.


Edit: BTW,. I think there should be a greater emphasis here on really really narrowing down the faculties these chemicals improve. I did camb sciences on armo, ani/pram, suni, pir, pp independently and can tell you that the effects vary considerably with respect to assignments. Uridine seems to be the most "comprehensive" all across the board improvement at doses higher than 300mg sublingual. I wonder if this all pales in comp to generic dexedrine or something though.

Edited by alecnevsky, 19 May 2013 - 01:31 PM.

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#2004 chris106

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

I've just returned from the Zollamt in Frankfurt where they wouldn't allow me what I'd ordered (which was Zembrin). I open the box for him, he takes the Zembrin to his desk, does a little research on the net, consults with a colleague, then comes back to me and tells me that it is a medicine and therefore I can't import it. So, now they'll send it back to iHerb, and hopefully I'll get my money back.


Oh, Jesus - really?! -_-

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing custom-troubles again, Damned Owl. But you know the drill - no choice but to try another supplier... >_<

I've also heard that bacopa is bad for men, in that is has studies showing shrinkage of male reproductive areas. Needless to say, i immediately cut that out of my regime, but i do take ashwaganda and tulsi (holy basil) nightly - [gaia herbs, adrenal support/stress response] <same product two different names/marketing>
and that seems to have effect some days, and other days not so much... anyone else getting this?



I can attest to this, i havnt had much desire to engage in sexual activities since i've included Bacopa in my regime. Didnt do my research properly enough! Shame since i've been on it for atleast 4 months, and prior to the montly break i had before that; maybe 4 months aswell. Will see how it works out now that i've cut it out.


Goddamnit, not again! Whenever I've collected enough positive evidence for a supplement to work and/or be safe, and actually order it - I then find negative anecdotals that make me reconscider...

Next to better focus and decrease of ADD-PI symptoms, my other main goal with supplementation is to boost testosterone and up sex-drive, so those side effects of Bacopa are a total deal-breaker for me!
If I may ask, Flurr and Blueinfinity - do you have links to studies that actually back this up? What made me conscider bying Bacopa after mixed anecdotal reports here, were the positive results on this site,and they seemed like q quite legit pool of information because of how their rating-system works:

http://examine.com/s...eri/#summary5-0

They rate the positive effects of compounds in a "human effect matrix", which is based solely on existing human studies and trials.
However, now that I double-checked, I realized that this does apply to the side effects so much, as those are only listed in the "complete summary section" further below on the page...Then again, there is only mention of reduced fertility/sperm count in male mice, but no decrease in libido or testosterone levels...?

Anyways, the positive effects of Bacopa on memory and anxiety sounded really great, but now I don't know what to make of this anymore... :(

Edited by chris106, 19 May 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#2005 chris106

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 02:00 PM

In comparison, armo + phenylpiracetam/ armo + aniracetam actually works out quite well (holding whatever mess it does in your head constant.) On performance/endurance plots, it seems armo+pp > armo+ani/pram > armo alone > armo + uridine.


Heh, very interesting information! Just yesterday I started taking Armo again, after a few weeks of hiatus.
In those weeks, I managed pretty well on adaptogens (mostly Rhodiola and Mucuna), as well as Catecholamine precoursors (DLPA mostly) and some anti-toxic, pro-cognitive support (Omega 3,Q10, Selenium, Magnesium Malate, Vit-B Complex, Vit-D and Carnitine)

However, (Ar)modafinil is weird in that it seems to be so "potent" that it overwrites all the felt effects of the supps listed above - from the direct improvement i can FEEL, it seems to make no difference if I take those on top of Armo or not, while they always showed great improvement on their own.

Of course I will continue to take them alongside regardless, just not sure about the adaptogens. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports of people combining lots of Adaptogens with (Ar)modafinil, but it seems risky to me, especially with Rhodiola, being somehwat of an MAOI... Ashwagandga is supposed to take of the edge a little of (Ar)modafinil - I have yet to try that, though. As well as High doses of carnitine+Armoda...

But I digress, sorry for getting of topic >_< - lastly, two short questions though, alecnevsky - Have you also experienced Nicoteine and/or coffeine to be highly counterproductive with Armodafinil? And have you also tried plain Modafinil yet? I feel like I responded better to that than to Armodafinil, having less side effects like headaches and muscle cramps...


I wonder if this all pales in comp to generic dexedrine or something though.


Not in my experience, I reacted horribly to both forms (d- and dl-) of amphetamines, and that even though MPH worked for me for a long time. I wouldn't touch neither of those ever again, since side effects seemed unmanagable. Everyone's brain chemistry is different of course, but alternatives like Uridine or even Modafinil seem much safer to me, though...

Edited by chris106, 19 May 2013 - 02:15 PM.


#2006 alecnevsky

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:01 PM

Of course I will continue to take them alongside regardless, just not sure about the adaptogens. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports of people combining lots of Adaptogens with (Ar)modafinil, but it seems risky to me,


I've been taking Ginseng for like a year and seriously think it works to any noticeable extent only in conjunction with Ginkgo. I've taken it with armo and felt no different. I do imagine that it would keep armo within relative non-excitotoxic bounds since it's an adaptogen. In fact, I took it at the 9hr crash mark and felt absolutely nothing.

But I digress, sorry for getting of topic >_< - lastly, two short questions though, alecnevsky - Have you also experienced Nicoteine and/or coffeine to be highly counterproductive with Armodafinil? And have you also tried plain Modafinil yet? I feel like I responded better to that than to Armodafinil, having less side effects like headaches and muscle cramps...


It's funny you ask. I actually did smoke one cigarette the 6hrs into armo + ump to see whether I'd get more "creativity" via nicotine but all it did is just ramped up my heart rate (nonsmoker) and exacerbated the anxiety. Total shit tradeoff.
I've read multiple accounts against caffeine + armo but I still drank like 60mg caffeine last night along with armo. ...nothing, except loss of electrolytes.

You may agree that when you take armo/mod alone, say, 12hrs into your day, it really has no negative side effects physiologically (no arrhythmias, no anxiety) but when you add anything, it just loses the efficacy. The combined effects I listed are my intuitive estimates of overall efficacy but I think insofar as "armo vs x-drug" interaction goes, ampakines take top spot.

Edit: yeah for me, modafinil exerts some unwanted effects on the "emotional" part of the brain. It's more akin to amph in that respect, since it makes you somewhat rash in judgement and demeanor.

I wonder if this all pales in comp to generic dexedrine or something though.

Not in my experience, I reacted horribly to both forms (d- and dl-) of amphetamines, and that even though MPH worked for me for a long time. I wouldn't touch neither of those ever again, since side effects seemed unmanagable. Everyone's brain chemistry is different of course, but alternatives like Uridine or even Modafinil seem much safer to me, though...


Yeah no doubt insofar as safety profile, but performance wise, adderall has an unequaled effect of making you feel not only awake (armo) but also energetic and seemingly unfazed by long hrs of wakefulness. That is not to say though, that actual accuracy of responses is better or, say, the # of errors is less on amph., but again, there is a trade off between actually "performing," doing a half-assed job coming down from a sabotaged armo dosing or just going to sleep on uridine. Lol.

Edited by alecnevsky, 19 May 2013 - 03:11 PM.


#2007 Guardian4981

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

I've just returned from the Zollamt in Frankfurt where they wouldn't allow me what I'd ordered (which was Zembrin). I open the box for him, he takes the Zembrin to his desk, does a little research on the net, consults with a colleague, then comes back to me and tells me that it is a medicine and therefore I can't import it. So, now they'll send it back to iHerb, and hopefully I'll get my money back.


Oh, Jesus - really?! -_-

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing custom-troubles again, Damned Owl. But you know the drill - no choice but to try another supplier... >_<

I've also heard that bacopa is bad for men, in that is has studies showing shrinkage of male reproductive areas. Needless to say, i immediately cut that out of my regime, but i do take ashwaganda and tulsi (holy basil) nightly - [gaia herbs, adrenal support/stress response] <same product two different names/marketing>
and that seems to have effect some days, and other days not so much... anyone else getting this?



I can attest to this, i havnt had much desire to engage in sexual activities since i've included Bacopa in my regime. Didnt do my research properly enough! Shame since i've been on it for atleast 4 months, and prior to the montly break i had before that; maybe 4 months aswell. Will see how it works out now that i've cut it out.


Goddamnit, not again! Whenever I've collected enough positive evidence for a supplement to work and/or be safe, and actually order it - I then find negative anecdotals that make me reconscider...

Next to better focus and decrease of ADD-PI symptoms, my other main goal with supplementation is to boost testosterone and up sex-drive, so those side effects of Bacopa are a total deal-breaker for me!
If I may ask, Flurr and Blueinfinity - do you have links to studies that actually back this up? What made me conscider bying Bacopa after mixed anecdotal reports here, were the positive results on this site,and they seemed like q quite legit pool of information because of how their rating-system works:

http://examine.com/s...eri/#summary5-0

They rate the positive effects of compounds in a "human effect matrix", which is based solely on existing human studies and trials.
However, now that I double-checked, I realized that this does apply to the side effects so much, as those are only listed in the "complete summary section" further below on the page...Then again, there is only mention of reduced fertility/sperm count in male mice, but no decrease in libido or testosterone levels...?

Anyways, the positive effects of Bacopa on memory and anxiety sounded really great, but now I don't know what to make of this anymore... :(



Same thing happens to me, I order supplements with initial positive data then learn of negative data or try it myself and find there are sides not worth bearing.

If you pubmed Bacopa there is a study where it lowers sperm count, oddly it did not seem to alter testosterone. Some feel bacopa could act as a mild sexual depressant and potentially reduce chance of pregnancy. However I found when I took bacopa my libido went down the drain.


It is interesting how some folks in this thread report uridine enhanced their motivation, for me it did the opposite, I just felt very relaxed and content. For me uridine felt as if it perfectly balanced my serotonin however my dopamine felt too low.

I also suspect I have mild hypothyroidism as my latest labs came out with TSH of 3.5. My body temperatures were consistently low 97, however I have begun tyrosine and my body temp has risen to over 98.

I wonder if people who are prone to depression like me or social anxiety may deplete their tyrosine levels faster? I am going to run with tyrosine for a bit and may try the uridine again to see how I react to it now.

#2008 UnknownSuitor

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

Jeez, It's near impossible to follow these threads with all the rambling. lol

Edited by UnknownSuitor, 20 May 2013 - 08:05 PM.

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#2009 polymathic

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM

I've been following this thread for some time, but it was sort of useless as sourcing uridine in the UK was difficult for me.

I've been pestering my usual supplier (JG) to try and stock it (apparently some others have as well) - today I got an email saying they've got it.

link: http://www.jgsupplements.com/uridine/

disclaimer - i am not affiliated in any way with the company - just thought some of the UK and EU guys on here would be interested in the source.

I'm probably going to get on with UMP powder and report back in the next 2-3 weeks. fairly excited to FINALLY give this a go.

killer thread.

Edited by polymathic, 21 May 2013 - 12:16 PM.

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#2010 CoolStoryBroo

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

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Edited by CoolStoryBroo, 21 May 2013 - 02:45 PM.






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